Why trust someone you already know cheats and lies?

[hoping2heal]

I have been observing the infidelity/OM/OW/Marriage threads over the last couple of weeks for research. I have noticed that there is really strong loyalty on behalf of AP's to their MM/MW/WB/WG.

 

It got me thinking..If a contractor came to my house and told me how he cut corners on the last job and overcharged them..but he wanted to give me a great deal and work something out, I would never in a million years trust him.

 

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust. I notice a lot of posts suspecting partners of doing something wrong or being dishonest from partners who in a monagamus relationship; as if they are quick to believe the worst about their partners without being yet given any reason to think otherwise. While on the other hand, even when it is often transparent the MM/MW/WB/WG is not being truthful their AP's are adament that it is not the case. It really got me wondering why that was. Anyone else baffled by or notice this?

 

AP's weigh in and share your perspective

[PortuguesePrincess80]

I have been observing the infidelity/OM/OW/Marriage threads over the last couple of weeks for research. I have noticed that there is really strong loyalty on behalf of AP's to their MM/MW/WB/WG.

 

It got me thinking..If a contractor came to my house and told me how he cut corners on the last job and overcharged them..but he wanted to give me a great deal and work something out, I would never in a million years trust him.

 

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust. I notice a lot of posts suspecting partners of doing something wrong or being dishonest from partners who in a monagamus relationship; as if they are quick to believe the worst about their partners without being yet given any reason to think otherwise. While on the other hand, even when it is often transparent the MM/MW/WB/WG is not being truthful their AP's are adament that it is not the case. It really got me wondering why that was. Anyone else baffled by or notice this?

 

AP's weigh in and share your perspective

 

Baffling to say the least. I think its denial..turning a blind eye..or simple ignorance. Some would call it affairfog...I call it BULL****! No need to go into further explanation as its just as twisted as the stories you read on here. I have always wondered what most of these AP's are thinking...and simply trying to excuse their behaviors..and treating these MM/MW like they are the best thing in the world...but I'll never know...because I'll NEVER lower my standards like they have. That simple!

[whichwayisup]

It should be assumed that if you are having an affair with a married person, that the married person IS having sex with their spouse as well. Accept it, if one wants to continue on in the affair. Don't be hurt, shocked, feel betrayed. If one feels that way, end the affair.

[Distant78]

Baffling to say the least. I think its denial..turning a blind eye..or simple ignorance. Some would call it affairfog...I call it BULL****! No need to go into further explanation as its just as twisted as the stories you read on here. I have always wondered what most of these AP's are thinking...and simply trying to excuse their behaviors..and treating these MM/MW like they are the best thing in the world...but I'll never know...because I'll NEVER lower my standards like they have. That simple!

 

Yup, just plain ignorance and selfishness. They know good and well that if a MM/MW is willing to cheat with them, most likely they'll cheat on them and vice versa. The APs don't care if they're getting sloppy seconds from a MM/MW, they're just looking for their next piece of the pie! No such thing as an "affair fog." Just plain heartlessness and lack of empathy for their betrayed spouses. These tales of affairs contain the same old plot: Bad marriage/relationship made them take off their pants for another woman/man and when they "realize" the grass isn't greener all of a sudden they want their BS back or get jealous that their BS isn't putting up with their sh*t and moving on.

[pureinheart]

I have been observing the infidelity/OM/OW/Marriage threads over the last couple of weeks for research. I have noticed that there is really strong loyalty on behalf of AP's to their MM/MW/WB/WG.

 

It got me thinking..If a contractor came to my house and told me how he cut corners on the last job and overcharged them..but he wanted to give me a great deal and work something out, I would never in a million years trust him.

 

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust. I notice a lot of posts suspecting partners of doing something wrong or being dishonest from partners who in a monagamus relationship; as if they are quick to believe the worst about their partners without being yet given any reason to think otherwise. While on the other hand, even when it is often transparent the MM/MW/WB/WG is not being truthful their AP's are adament that it is not the case. It really got me wondering why that was. Anyone else baffled by or notice this?

 

AP's weigh in and share your perspective

 

May I ask if you are doing a paper? I want to say I like your wording...there have been others that have not exposed the "research" fact, yet it was obvious that they were doing a paper.

 

I am of the opinion that we all lie/cheat in/to someone/something, sometime everyday of our lives. I realise that many would disagree with this, although it's about awareness.

 

I already know that contractors rip people off and would say (in this context) that 90%, if not all, of the "repair" businesses (plumbers, electricians, etc.) rip people off...my ex was an appliance repairman and his brother owned the business...let's just put it this way...no matter where you live or who you are..you are getting ripped off.

 

I have found that people will lie less if they feel they do not have to, this is why the AP has more trust. In some cases it is the exact opposite...the MP lays him/herself bare to AP and the BS knows very little about what makes their P tick.

 

In my case I could not believe how little exDM's W knew about him after 30 years of M. He could not trust her and she did not trust him and that was the foundation of their R.

 

I think it's important to understand that we all fall short, and that it is mainly personal experiences that keep us from objectivity and the understanding that we all lie, cheat and steal...if we say that this is not the truth, then we lie to ourselves and continue to render the delusion of perfect existance, which makes it so much easier to see others faults.

Edited December 17, 2010 by pureinheart

[hoping2heal]

May I ask if you are doing a paper? I want to say I like your wording...there have been others that have not exposed the "research" fact, yet it was obvious that they were doing a paper. [/Quote]

 

No, not a paper but class related nonetheless. I find people are much more likely to be honest via an anonymous message board talking about these subjects.

 

I am of the opinion that we all lie/cheat in/to someone/something, sometime everyday of our lives. I realise that many would disagree with this, although it's about awareness.

 

I would agree that at points in our lives, yes. Everyday? No I probably would not agree to that.

 

 

I have found that people will lie less if they feel they do not have to, this is why the AP has more trust. In some cases it is the exact opposite...the MP lays him/herself bare to AP and the BS knows very little about what makes their P tick.

 

Don't many MM/MW/WB/WG have a reason to lie too? I mean it all of course depends on the context of the affair. If it is purely physical and nothing more on both ends - yeah I can see how it would not be necessary. For those A's that take a "romantic" turn - there are plenty of opportunities to and to need to lie to an AP as to not hurt/upset/dissapoint/anger them.

 

Simply because the AP knows the WS will cheat and lie does not really mean the AP is baring their soul, persay. I do think though there must be a sense of intimacy that forms between the WS and AP as a result of knowing about the affair. They both become part of something secretive that no one else knows about. Having something personal shared, even something negative with another person..yeah I can see how a sense of intimacy would form. You've opened up a biscuit here (many layers ) and it's really interesting to think about.

 

In my case I could not believe how little exDM's W knew about him after 30 years of M. He could not trust her and she did not trust him and that was the foundation of their R.

 

I know what you mean. Even with people who are not in affairs or having them, it's sad the lack of intimacy some relationships have. I don't think they know what they are missing.

 

I think it's important to understand that we all fall short, and that it is mainly personal experiences that keep us from objectivity and the understanding that we all lie, cheat and steal...if we say that this is not the truth, then we lie to ourselves and continue to render the delusion of perfect existance, which makes it so much easier to see others faults.

 

That is true. We all fall short and sometimes much more at certain parts of our lives than others.

 

However, does that then make the offense lessen? Are affairs not "bad things" simply because people make mistakes? What about crimes such as child molesting, swindling and conning people for money, and arson? Are those things not bad simply because people fall short? I'm just trying to understand how you guage your sense of right and wrong.

 

Has being an AP made you feel that A's are okay and not as bad as some people make them out to be?

[jlola]

Great insight H2H. I think AP thinks the know Ws. But as the saying goes, you never truly know anyone till you live with them.

 

If i could have put a camera on my father at home none of his 3 "soulmate" OW would have stuck around. Just a glimpse of his rages would make them run for the hills. My mother said she never saw that side of him the 4 years they dated. then they married and his true nature slowly came to light.

 

My sister who has affairs is a real doozie. Thing is, when people speak about themselvers to others, they tell you how they see themselves. they tell you their version of situations.

 

I have yelled at my siter many times and asked her if she is on hallucinating drugs. She will tell her version of her life and story to someone who already knows it's BS. She will repeat a story to me and completely deny what I know to be true and insist on it.She has a vision of herself as victim, good person. She is the queen of denial.

 

But you know whatt? Men who have affairs with her always believe her version. always want to save her. I bet if you asked any of the 4 guys she had an affair with if they thought she ever lied to them, they would all say no. Well, all but husband #2 who was only affair partner who married her. He ended up seeing her true colors too after he gave up wife and daughter to marry my poor innocent,sweet,ever the victim,selfless ,church going sister.

 

I stopped speaking with my father cause he pulls the same sh*t. He acts like my mother is an evil person and makes stories up about her. I have told her what he said and her version is always way different from his and when you hear the whole story, hers makes more sense.

 

A cheater usually has to lie,manipulate,betray the very people they claim to love which is wife and kids. Yes,everyone tells white lies from time to time. usually to someone who means nothing to them. When people can lie in the face of someone who trust them day to day,sometimes for years there is no questioning what else the person will lie about or lie to. they have no respect or boundaries. you have seen the nature of the beast and that is scary.

[hoping2heal]

Great insight H2H. I think AP thinks the know Ws. But as the saying goes, you never truly know anyone till you live with them.

 

I made a common observation in plain sight. No great insight there.

 

However, I would have to say the great insight of the evening comes from you :

 

A cheater usually has to lie,manipulate,betray the very people they claim to love which is wife and kids. Yes,everyone tells white lies from time to time. usually to someone who means nothing to them. When people can lie in the face of someone who trust them day to day,sometimes for years there is no questioning what else the person will lie about or lie to. they have no respect or boundaries. you have seen the nature of the beast and that is scary

 

 

Great point and that is so true! I guess that is really what seperates one mindset from the rest

 

As you pointed out, an AP doesn't really know their WS partner or their lives without spending it with them. They know what they are being told and what version of the truth that may be. Perhaps there is something about comitting the act of an affair together, that builds a false sense of trust. I think one of the most twisted stories I have ever heard - an AP's MM was using his kids to lie to his AP and help create the "illusion" he fed to her. She was certain he could not be lying to her because as she said "There is no need. He's honest with me. It's his wife he has to lie too." She was just shattered when she learned the truth after after a few years. It totally messed with her senses - because even the young children were involved and playing into this. She was just beside herself. It was really, really bad.

 

Maybe I have answered my own question..the fact that they are the AP - makes them feel as though they are the ones the MM/MW/WB/WG can be honest with but as you pointed out - someone who is well versed in lying to those who trust them and that they care (or cared) about just simply cannot be trusted at all and will likely lie to their AP's too, when it is necessary.

[YellowShark]

If they'll cheat with you... they'll cheat on you. And that's the bottom line.

 

I too am always amazed how so many APs in the OM/OW section "adore" their cheating MM/MW. How MM/MW is soooo wonderful and kind, and loving... It's like falling for a rapist and then rationalizing... "Ya, but he's such a nice rapist..."

[PortuguesePrincess80]

May I ask if you are doing a paper? I want to say I like your wording...there have been others that have not exposed the "research" fact, yet it was obvious that they were doing a paper.

 

I am of the opinion that we all lie/cheat in/to someone/something, sometime everyday of our lives. I realise that many would disagree with this, although it's about awareness.

 

I already know that contractors rip people off and would say (in this context) that 90%, if not all, of the "repair" businesses (plumbers, electricians, etc.) rip people off...my ex was an appliance repairman and his brother owned the business...let's just put it this way...no matter where you live or who you are..you are getting ripped off.

 

I have found that people will lie less if they feel they do not have to, this is why the AP has more trust. In some cases it is the exact opposite...the MP lays him/herself bare to AP and the BS knows very little about what makes their P tick.

 

In my case I could not believe how little exDM's W knew about him after 30 years of M. He could not trust her and she did not trust him and that was the foundation of their R.

 

I think it's important to understand that we all fall short, and that it is mainly personal experiences that keep us from objectivity and the understanding that we all lie, cheat and steal...if we say that this is not the truth, then we lie to ourselves and continue to render the delusion of perfect existance, which makes it so much easier to see others faults.

 

The bolded is the biggest load of crap if I ever could read one. Sounds like you still have major barriers to cross if you think that after you had an affair! But then again...thats what all AP'S want to believe right? His wife doesnt KNOW him like I do. I make better love to him than his W does. Oh PULEASE woman...get overself. Obviously if you were everything to him and meant so much more to him than his wife of 30 years...why isnt he with you? Give me a break...your threads really are starting to stink!

[oxfordsocks]

I had an affair on my husband for 4 months before he found out(i didn't make it that hard for him to do so) ..In all that time everyday i was trying to tell him that i had moved on and out of our marriage.

 

When he found out--I continued to see the person with his knowing --while we have lived in our house with our children...while progressing through a divorce and dividing and selling of 3 prooperties.

 

All the time since i was being honest I thought that my affair partner who was also married was doing the same thing. albeit telling her about me.

 

He had said that their relationship had never been one of high communication and since his first attempt at separating from her(which i confirmed with her) had not been successful due to us living in different countries which would have meant him leaving his country and therefore his children -it became to difficult for him to face and he needed more time to truely leavin in a way that was more financially sound for all of them--and realities of living in a country with his life while trying to provide financially for his family at the same time(as his wife has a very small wage) these factors became overwhelming so soon into our relationship.

 

However he did continue to hide me for the next 11 months while i thought he was progressing incrementaly towards separating--such as i was with my husband. Also i thought timing with his daughter going away finally to college would be a better time for us to get together.

 

So I continued in what i though were truths--not becuase i believed we were both deceiving. As i wasn't--and I am a good person who never had cheated on my husband before--and was being honest .

 

It bothered me that he did not tell her about me , but i was under the iimpression that there relationship was much like me and my husbands--living the dailies and no intimacy etc... even when he said he was still sleepping in their king size bed as a bed is a bed-and they were not as open with their children about their "problems"

 

Do I have sucker on my face--was i too trusting--no--I believed because everyone has different ways of doing things--just like me--and I am a good person--not a horrible cheat the way cheaters are viewed on here.

[bentnotbroken]

The bolded is the biggest load of crap if I ever could read one. Sounds like you still have major barriers to cross if you think that after you had an affair! But then again...thats what all AP'S want to believe right? His wife doesnt KNOW him like I do. I make better love to him than his W does. Oh PULEASE woman...get overself. Obviously if you were everything to him and meant so much more to him than his wife of 30 years...why isnt he with you? Give me a break...your threads really are starting to stink!

 

 

I knew him and didn't at the same time. It is hard to know 2 different personalities. NPD personalities are hard to understand much less live with. But to say I didn't know Mr. Messy is like saying that I was supposed to know the hidden demon within. I knew as much about him as the OW did about the emotional abuser that I lived with. She knew what he showed her and I knew what he showed me. Neither were the complete person nor the real person.

[Spark1111]

I have been observing the infidelity/OM/OW/Marriage threads over the last couple of weeks for research. I have noticed that there is really strong loyalty on behalf of AP's to their MM/MW/WB/WG.

 

It got me thinking..If a contractor came to my house and told me how he cut corners on the last job and overcharged them..but he wanted to give me a great deal and work something out, I would never in a million years trust him.

 

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust. I notice a lot of posts suspecting partners of doing something wrong or being dishonest from partners who in a monagamus relationship; as if they are quick to believe the worst about their partners without being yet given any reason to think otherwise. While on the other hand, even when it is often transparent the MM/MW/WB/WG is not being truthful their AP's are adament that it is not the case. It really got me wondering why that was. Anyone else baffled by or notice this?

 

AP's weigh in and share your perspective

 

I think affairs are fallen into by two needy, vulnerable people who get high on the excitement and juice and begin to present their affair personna: I will be whatever you need me to be if you do the same for me.

 

There are few, if any, demands placed on affair partners, other than to pine away for each other in between illicit stolen moments of passion.

 

The OW in my case thought he was her Knight in Shining Armor; a wonderfully devoted and kind family man who rescued her from unbearable moments of lonliness (and a few bills too!)

 

And for her, he probably was that personna! He needed her validation and praise. It became a drug for him. She became that kind, warm, always supportive good mommy for him. In real life, she is somewhat angry and bitter over her divorce.

 

Everyone else, who had known him for life, saw an angry, depressed, unhappy and emotionally distant man.

 

One who stopped enjoying me; our life together, our children, friends and extended family. So at that time, I did not know him at all.....

 

The whole event was delusional, IMHO. And again, everyone who has known him forever feels he has come "back" to us all: Happy, confident, self-assured and goal-oriented.

[seren]

I, having known my H for over 26 years thought I knew him, I would've been put up against a wall and shot before I would say he could/would have an A. Granted, during the A he became a very different, not so nice person - that person I didn't know, wouldn't have wanted to know.

 

The OW, after D Day tells me she knew my H, that I was stopping him contacting her, that I had made him end the A. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Had she known my H she would have known that he is and always has been his own man - had he loved her, he would have left on D Day when I opened the door and said if you want to be with her, off you go, in fact he would've left before, for love.

 

But, if I could be taken in by the gaslighting why on earth wouldn't the OW? truth is, the only person who truly, truly knows what goes on is the WS.

 

Why do I trust him? because he took steps to fix what was broken in him and we took steps to fix what had broken with us. I trust him because I love him despite the A, and in an ironic twist - he absolutely realises what he has at home simply because I have give him that trust, despite all. I have the man who I married and I love him with all my heart, always have, always will. He also knows there are no second chances and he sees my forgiving him as an act of great strength and belief in him - It wasn't easy, but I never fell out of love with him nor he me. So, I would say I trust someone who cheated and lied (past tense) and I trust them to not do that again - there would be no second chances.

[thomasb]

The bolded is the biggest load of crap if I ever could read one. Sounds like you still have major barriers to cross if you think that after you had an affair! But then again...thats what all AP'S want to believe right? His wife doesnt KNOW him like I do. I make better love to him than his W does. Oh PULEASE woman...get overself. Obviously if you were everything to him and meant so much more to him than his wife of 30 years...why isnt he with you? Give me a break...your threads really are starting to stink!

 

PP, I'm sure the poster will come back and say because of his kids, finances, whatever. But coming from a former MM myself, I can tell you. The other woman truly believed that since I cheated with her, she was all that and a bag of chips. That my life with my wife sucked. Including the sex. Which in her mind we never had. And before anyone says I put that stupid idea in her head, I didn't. It was all delusion on her part. The only one who ever truly knew me was my dear wife.

[anne1707]

I totally agree with you Thomas. I let the ex-OM believe all sorts because it allowed me to continue eating cake (). He thought we had an amazing connection but the truth was at times he irritated the hell out of me and I would often do my utmost to minimise contact with him so I could enjoy spending time with my H. I always knew that my H had me figured out and "got me" way more than anybody else including the ex-OM.

[OWoman]

The bolded is the biggest load of crap if I ever could read one. Sounds like you still have major barriers to cross if you think that after you had an affair! But then again...thats what all AP'S want to believe right? His wife doesnt KNOW him like I do. I make better love to him than his W does. Oh PULEASE woman...get overself. Obviously if you were everything to him and meant so much more to him than his wife of 30 years...why isnt he with you? Give me a break...your threads really are starting to stink!

 

 

He is. His "wife of 30 years" is now his xW.

[donnamaybe]

He is. His "wife of 30 years" is now his xW.

Um, I don't think HER ex MM is with her. I believe he is still with his W.

[OWoman]

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust. I notice a lot of posts suspecting partners of doing something wrong or being dishonest from partners who in a monagamus relationship; as if they are quick to believe the worst about their partners without being yet given any reason to think otherwise. While on the other hand, even when it is often transparent the MM/MW/WB/WG is not being truthful their AP's are adament that it is not the case. It really got me wondering why that was. Anyone else baffled by or notice this?

 

AP's weigh in and share your perspective

 

I'm not the trusting kind. I always triangulate any information before I believe it, whatever its source. So no, no "implicit trust" or blind loyalty from me...

 

My H did not lie to his xW. He didn't seek her out to tell her he'd found someone else, but she never asked, and he never had to lie. When he did tell her, she chose not to believe him, and when he moved out, she still believed it was merely a trick to get her back to MC. So no, there was no track record of deceit. The rest of his family, his kids, siblings, parents etc all knew about me, knew of the A - and I'd met most of them (though not the kids - we both felt that that would be unfair and place them in a potentially difficult position) and was also known as his partner to his colleagues and friends. I had all the information I needed, from a multitude of sources. There has never been any inkling of deception or anything short of brutal honesty between us - he longed for a R where he could be honest, and was grateful to find one with me after the manipulation and evasion that his xW favoured.

 

Why do I trust him? Because he has shown himself to be trustworthy; to be willing to do the hard work to earn and keep my trust; because he is a man of honour and integrity in all areas of his life even if he had the misfortune to have been married to an abusive woman who prevented him from living that out in his previous marriage; and because I have many early warning systems in place that would alert me instantly if anything was amiss! I trust him because the evidence tells me I should.

 

Do I worry that he may one day feel obliged to keep critical info from me? No more than I'd worry about anyone else doing so. He's addressed his issues in IC; he's changed the behaviours and is alert to the triggers that caused that. And our mutual commitment to ensuring that our M remains founded on clear, healthy communications makes me a lot more confident of our M than I would be about some random SG who has never faced those demons within himself and never had to do the work to prevent deceit in a R.

[OWoman]

Um, I don't think HER ex MM is with her. I believe he is still with his W.

 

Nope - wasn't referring to Pure; I thought PP's point was more general (that a MM always chooses his W of 30 years because of course he knows him better). Apologies if I misunderstood.

[HappyAtLast]

I believe that the same question could be asked of the spouse who stays, no?

[donnamaybe]

I believe that the same question could be asked of the spouse who stays, no?

It could, but there is the occasion where a WS completely regrets his/her actions, sees what they have to lose, and changes their ways. Not so a WS who gaslights, refuses to tell the truth about the A, and secretly drags the A on for year after year after year after year after year.

[HappyAtLast]

Absolutely agree Donna. Just pointing out to the OP that the question could be asked of both sides. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the cheating, the length or intensity of the cheating, generally one of the folks in the triangle takes the leap of faith with said cheater. Sometimes it is the affair partner, sometimes it is the betrayed spouse. But, if the cheater winds up with one of these folks, someone is trusting someone that has been proven to be a cheater (or a liar, can't remember the title of the thread).

[thomasb]

Rarely do the cheaters end up together. Fact. Usually they come to their senses before they screw up their whole lives.

[HappyAtLast]

Rarely do the cheaters end up together. Fact. Usually they come to their senses before they screw up their whole lives.

 

I think that is a generally true statement. However, sometimes one coming to their senses involves getting a divorce and pursuing happiness elsewhere, or sometimes the betrayed spouse is the one who comes to their senses and shows the cheater to the door.

 

Life is not a one-size-fits all.