Why trust someone you already know cheats and lies?

[Dexter Morgan]

Yet, in the case of an affair/cheating the AP starts off already knowing the MM/MW (or cheating BF/GF in some cases) and there seems to be almost implicit trust.

 

ya, I laugh my ass off at posts where someone effing someone elses spouse asks stupid question like, "is he/she lying to me"...or makes comments like, "he/she is a scumbag liar" when talking about their MM/MW.

gee....what gave it away if cheating on their spouse wasn't enough to tip them off?

[NoLongerSad]

The other woman truly believed that since I cheated with her, she was all that and a bag of chips.

 

To clarify, you are I think referring to what are known in the States as "french fries." So, the American version would be "all that and a bag of french fries."

 

If you are in fact referring to what in America as "chips," then in the U.K. they are known as "crisps."

[hoping2heal]

I knew him and didn't at the same time. It is hard to know 2 different personalities. NPD personalities are hard to understand much less live with. But to say I didn't know Mr. Messy is like saying that I was supposed to know the hidden demon within. I knew as much about him as the OW did about the emotional abuser that I lived with. She knew what he showed her and I knew what he showed me. Neither were the complete person nor the real person.

 

Great post and perspective. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Even though I am sure not all MM/MW/WG/WB have NPD I do think there's a strong possibility that in the majority of the affairs this is the case. The AP gets one version of the WS and the BS gets one version of the WS and neither version is nor complete nor fully honest. Good point, thanks for your thoughts!

[hoping2heal]

PP, I'm sure the poster will come back and say because of his kids, finances, whatever. But coming from a former MM myself, I can tell you. The other woman truly believed that since I cheated with her, she was all that and a bag of chips. That my life with my wife sucked. Including the sex. Which in her mind we never had. And before anyone says I put that stupid idea in her head, I didn't. It was all delusion on her part. The only one who ever truly knew me was my dear wife.

 

Wow - great to get the perspective of a former MM. Thanks for sharing with us! This is not the only forum I've taken the time to visit and I have noticed a fair bit of "I'm all that and a bag of chips". There was a former MM kind enough to explain that his mistress believed she was special because he stepped outside of his marriage to be with her. That he needed more than his wife. He admitted he played this up and right along. He said whatever she needed to believe he was more than happy to give her because that is what kept her around. He also made a point that if it wasn't her, it would be someone else if it came to that. He didn't want to leave his marriage but his wife was no longer interested in sex - and he had a high sex drive. As you can imagine - he got a lot of angry replies but he was honest and it did give insight. Great post thomasb

[hoping2heal]

I think that is a generally true statement. However, sometimes one coming to their senses involves getting a divorce and pursuing happiness elsewhere, or sometimes the betrayed spouse is the one who comes to their senses and shows the cheater to the door.

 

Life is not a one-size-fits all.

 

I think that is a very valid point. The reality is not all M's where affairs are involved are all that happy to begin with. There can be isolation and dead communication long before an AP comes into the picture. I don't believe that justifies affairs or makes them okay - but they are a fact of life and do happen. Some marriages would be better off dead and if the A heads them to that direction? Then something good has come from something bad.

[hoping2heal]

I'm not the trusting kind. I always triangulate any information before I believe it, whatever its source. So no, no "implicit trust" or blind loyalty from me...

 

My H did not lie to his xW. He didn't seek her out to tell her he'd found someone else, but she never asked, and he never had to lie. When he did tell her, she chose not to believe him, and when he moved out, she still believed it was merely a trick to get her back to MC. So no, there was no track record of deceit. The rest of his family, his kids, siblings, parents etc all knew about me, knew of the A - and I'd met most of them (though not the kids - we both felt that that would be unfair and place them in a potentially difficult position) and was also known as his partner to his colleagues and friends. I had all the information I needed, from a multitude of sources. There has never been any inkling of deception or anything short of brutal honesty between us - he longed for a R where he could be honest, and was grateful to find one with me after the manipulation and evasion that his xW favoured.

 

Why do I trust him? Because he has shown himself to be trustworthy; to be willing to do the hard work to earn and keep my trust; because he is a man of honour and integrity in all areas of his life even if he had the misfortune to have been married to an abusive woman who prevented him from living that out in his previous marriage; and because I have many early warning systems in place that would alert me instantly if anything was amiss! I trust him because the evidence tells me I should.

 

Do I worry that he may one day feel obliged to keep critical info from me? No more than I'd worry about anyone else doing so. He's addressed his issues in IC; he's changed the behaviours and is alert to the triggers that caused that. And our mutual commitment to ensuring that our M remains founded on clear, healthy communications makes me a lot more confident of our M than I would be about some random SG who has never faced those demons within himself and never had to do the work to prevent deceit in a R.

 

Thanks for your insight. From what I gather your situation has turned out for the better. You actually married your MM. I don't doubt that your attitude is what kept you from being one of the many AP's who later find out they've been had. You mention that you are not trusting and only go based on what you can confirm. That is what I'm talking about. Your situation does sound like an exception to the rule in more ways than one.

[hoping2heal]

I, having known my H for over 26 years thought I knew him, I would've been put up against a wall and shot before I would say he could/would have an A. Granted, during the A he became a very different, not so nice person - that person I didn't know, wouldn't have wanted to know.

 

The OW, after D Day tells me she knew my H, that I was stopping him contacting her, that I had made him end the A. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Had she known my H she would have known that he is and always has been his own man - had he loved her, he would have left on D Day when I opened the door and said if you want to be with her, off you go, in fact he would've left before, for love.

 

But, if I could be taken in by the gaslighting why on earth wouldn't the OW? truth is, the only person who truly, truly knows what goes on is the WS.

 

Why do I trust him? because he took steps to fix what was broken in him and we took steps to fix what had broken with us. I trust him because I love him despite the A, and in an ironic twist - he absolutely realises what he has at home simply because I have give him that trust, despite all. I have the man who I married and I love him with all my heart, always have, always will. He also knows there are no second chances and he sees my forgiving him as an act of great strength and belief in him - It wasn't easy, but I never fell out of love with him nor he me. So, I would say I trust someone who cheated and lied (past tense) and I trust them to not do that again - there would be no second chances.

 

Great post! Very touching. I am glad you two were able to rebuild both your marriage and your trust. I can't imagine that being easy but I bet the payoff was amazing. The intimacy between you two must be very deep and wonderful.

[wicar1]

simple answer... karma

[Woman In Blue]

PP, I'm sure the poster will come back and say because of his kids, finances, whatever. But coming from a former MM myself, I can tell you. The other woman truly believed that since I cheated with her, she was all that and a bag of chips. That my life with my wife sucked. Including the sex. Which in her mind we never had. And before anyone says I put that stupid idea in her head, I didn't. It was all delusion on her part. The only one who ever truly knew me was my dear wife.

Oh my. Don't let any OW read this post - they'll accuse you of being a troll or a BW posing as a married man. Most of them firmly believe their married 'boyfriends' aren't having sex with the wife and would bet their first born children on it - that's how deep their delusion is rooted.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

He is. His "wife of 30 years" is now his xW.

 

Great for you...sounds like you got a great prize in your hands. Lucky you! In either case my response had NOTHING to do with you...the one in a million scenario!

[PortuguesePrincess80]

It could, but there is the occasion where a WS completely regrets his/her actions, sees what they have to lose, and changes their ways. Not so a WS who gaslights, refuses to tell the truth about the A, and secretly drags the A on for year after year after year after year after year.

 

Exactly! What a catch that dude is huh? Not speaks dysfunction then the person who actually STILL wants them after all that! Whether that be the Betrayed or the Other person..period!

[Distant78]

Great for you...sounds like you got a great prize in your hands. Lucky you! In either case my response had NOTHING to do with you...the one in a million scenario!

 

That's not a prize.

[NoIDidn't]

All the time since i was being honest I thought that my affair partner who was also married was doing the same thing. albeit telling her about me.

{snip}

 

So I continued in what i though were truths--not becuase i believed we were both deceiving. As i wasn't--and I am a good person who never had cheated on my husband before--and was being honest .

 

Just starting the thread, but I think this is actually the best nugget so far.

 

Its the classic mistake of assuming the other person (or people in general) thinks like you do.

 

I think most OPs think that because they are being honest, that the MP is being honest with them as well. The OPs bare THEIR souls, not so much the MP. The MPs often just tell the OPs what they need them to know, to garner certain feelings about things.

 

I'm sure the situation with oxford and her MM was furthered by his not telling her that things were as she had assumed. And I'm sure he said nothing to her, until d-day, to let her know that her assumptions were not correct.

[seren]

I often think that the MP says the things they do because that's how they see them - at the time. How can any MP think that their marriage is all that and have an A? surely they have to minimise the marriage to themselves to continue with an A, otherwise, what does that say about them? Possibly, the marriage is having a rough patch, but unlike the BS, who is trying to put things right, the WS displays classic conflict avoidance behaviour, sees it as all doomed and engages with someone who doesn't know they are being awkward or difficult. The WS can be all the things they want to be as they can almost shrug off the problems and view of themselves that the BS is making them see and become reinvented, almost.

 

The gaslighting in the A toward the marriage and BS involves them blame shifting, so they can say the BS is being crabby, doesn't understand or whatever - while in actual fact, the BS knows something has shifted, asks and gets told there is nothing wrong. Drives a person nuts!! Therein lies the rub, as an XBS, I would have given anything for the truth to understand why my H had changed so much, even if it meant him leaving or telling about the A.

 

It is only when D Day forces them to actually look at their behaviour and look at what the consequences of their actions are going to be that many WS wake up and realise that it is the marriage or relationship that they really want. Probably why many WS then shift the blame onto the OP or disparage them - tacky behaviour in my book. The AP sees the WS as they wish to present themselves, they do not have years and years of everyday living to measure the changed behaviour against, many will say that they know the WS better than the BS, well no actually, you know the man he presents, you know he can lie and cheat on someone, not very nice characteristics, but because he presents his home life as so awful and the BS as a hag or worse, that they are believed. So it would be understandable for the OP to wonder what the hell is happening on a D Day when they get the heave ho. Similar to the BS during gaslighting who wonders WTF is happening.

 

After D Day a lot of work is put into reconciliation, to looking at what circumstances led to the breakdown of the marriage and relationship, what needs changing, what needs to be done to make it through a godawful time. Those WS that work hard at this and the BS who work hard to forgive and to recognise flaws in the pre-A marriage make it. Few are unscathed, but for many of us, the marriage becomes different, in my case I couldn't ask for a better, happier relationship with my H. I stay despite the A, our marriage has weathered the worse storm because of the A, but it has survived - makes me think that our little ship is dammed strong to have ploughed the rough and stormy seas that it has, to continue with the analogy - we have our safe harbour and we aint going anywhere!

[OWoman]

After D Day a lot of work is put into reconciliation, to looking at what circumstances led to the breakdown of the marriage and relationship, what needs changing, what needs to be done to make it through a godawful time. Those WS that work hard at this and the BS who work hard to forgive and to recognise flaws in the pre-A marriage make it. Few are unscathed, but for many of us, the marriage becomes different, in my case I couldn't ask for a better, happier relationship with my H. I stay despite the A, our marriage has weathered the worse storm because of the A, but it has survived - makes me think that our little ship is dammed strong to have ploughed the rough and stormy seas that it has, to continue with the analogy - we have our safe harbour and we aint going anywhere!

 

Seren, I think the "working hard" to fix things is the key, whether you are AP or BS, in deciding whether or not your R with the WS has a future. A WS who is not prepared to put in that hard work - whether to recover a M or to forge a FTR from an A - is not worth wasting time on, IMO. Those same factors that led to the A would not be addressed, and the M / R would be vulnerable as well as struggling with trust issues. But if the WS is prepared to work hard, and the BS / AP is prepared to work hard with them, then those Rs / Ms have a chance.

[seren]

Yes, OWoman I agree. Wether it is the marriage or the A relationship that continues after D Day, unless the WS looks at what allowed them to lie and cheat on someone or even what the circumstances were that precipitated this, then neither of the relationships have a cat in hell's chance of making it past first base.

 

This is why the phrase, once a cheater, always a cheater doesn't apply to all WS. I am sure there are some who never address what is missing in them that sees them lurching from one A to another. I can see the attraction of no strings sex, but so wish they would have the balls to just leave and admit they cannot commit to their partner, to enable them to do their own thing too.

 

I also think that anyone who has looked at themselves, warts and all, recognises what needs changing and then goes on to make those changes comes out a better person. Certainly I wouldn't have gone back to my relationship with my husband had he remained the same as he had become prior to and during the A - would've put a bow around his neck and posted him to the OW. But, once the issues we had both created in our marriage were addressed; how he had changed and more importanly how he chose to deal with that, could we move forward.

 

Seeing someone show remorse for their actions and seeing tangible proof of the change meant that he got my trust - not something I give lightly, although I admit to not blindly trusting anymore, but trust? yeah.

[aerogurl87]

Yup, just plain ignorance and selfishness. They know good and well that if a MM/MW is willing to cheat with them, most likely they'll cheat on them and vice versa. The APs don't care if they're getting sloppy seconds from a MM/MW, they're just looking for their next piece of the pie! No such thing as an "affair fog." Just plain heartlessness and lack of empathy for their betrayed spouses. These tales of affairs contain the same old plot: Bad marriage/relationship made them take off their pants for another woman/man and when they "realize" the grass isn't greener all of a sudden they want their BS back or get jealous that their BS isn't putting up with their sh*t and moving on.

 

It's not always the exact same. I'll admit when I cheated on my ex, we didn't have a bad relationship at that point. Everything was actually good up until some issues beyond his or my control, led me to make the choice to cheat on him. And I actually didn't want him back at first, I wanted him out of my life for good. He begged for me back, and eventually I gave in. It wasn't till our relationship became super toxic that I wanted him back. But I do agree that it takes heartlessness to cheat on someone. Heartlessness and a whole lot of selfishness.

[OWoman]

would've put a bow around his neck and posted him to the OW.

 

Isn't it called a "noose"?

 

 

Seeing someone show remorse for their actions and seeing tangible proof of the change meant that he got my trust - not something I give lightly, although I admit to not blindly trusting anymore, but trust? yeah.

 

Yep - when someone goes out and does what it takes to earn it, you're happy to give it.

 

It's good to hear stories of things working out - like you, I don't believe "once a cheater always a cheater" if someone has the determination to address the issues, and a partner who's willing to work with them in doing so.

[donnamaybe]

Isn't it called a "noose"?

Is that what YOUR H calls it?

[OWoman]

Is that what YOUR H calls it?

 

That Michael Hutchence stuff creeps me out - I draw the line at whips and chains!

[Dexter Morgan]

After D Day a lot of work is put into reconciliation, to looking at what circumstances led to the breakdown of the marriage and relationship, what needs changing, what needs to be done to make it through a godawful time. Those WS that work hard at this and the BS who work hard to forgive and to recognise flaws in the pre-A marriage make it.

 

ya, but one big problem remains....the WS went out and f####d someone else. I don't see it as "making it" when knowing the person I would have stayed with created such a scar on the relationship.

 

I always hear, "our marriage is better than ever"...but their spouse still went out and f####d someone else. I just don't see that as making it. Settling perhaps.

Making a huge emotional sacrifice that doesn't sit well from time to time with the BS perhaps...but not making it.

[Distant78]

It's not always the exact same. I'll admit when I cheated on my ex, we didn't have a bad relationship at that point. Everything was actually good up until some issues beyond his or my control, led me to make the choice to cheat on him. And I actually didn't want him back at first, I wanted him out of my life for good. He begged for me back, and eventually I gave in. It wasn't till our relationship became super toxic that I wanted him back. But I do agree that it takes heartlessness to cheat on someone. Heartlessness and a whole lot of selfishness.

 

Ahh, spare me the excuses lady. Cheating is heartlessness and if the relationship was so good, there should've never been no reason for the cheater to cheat. Hope he found someone that truly loves him and will never treat him like that again. The relationship became toxic because of the cheating.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Distant78

[Distant78]

After D Day a lot of work is put into reconciliation, to looking at what circumstances led to the breakdown of the marriage and relationship, what needs changing, what needs to be done to make it through a godawful time. Those WS that work hard at this and the BS who work hard to forgive and to recognise flaws in the pre-A marriage make it.

 

First off, there isn't always 50/50 blame on the WS and BS regarding the marriage. Sometimes it can just be one-sided. Secondly, no matter how hard the two work at reconciliation, the WS still cheated and it will forever haunt the BS who's trying to hard to get over it, which will never happen in their lifetime. I agree with Dexter, it's still settling IMO, and that stain will never go away.

[hoping2heal]

Ahh, spare me the excuses lady. Cheating is heartlessness and if the relationship was so good, there should've never been no reason for the cheater to cheat. Hope he found someone that truly loves him and will never treat him like that again. The relationship became toxic because of the cheating.

 

Oh that is not always true. People don't only cheat simply because something is wrong in the relationship. There are plenty of people who cheat because of something going on with themselves that has nothing to do with the state of the relationship. A lot of times there can be self esteem issues whether it be in the form of sabotaging relationships or else wise.

[Distant78]

Oh that is not always true. People don't only cheat simply because something is wrong in the relationship. There are plenty of people who cheat because of something going on with themselves that has nothing to do with the state of the relationship. A lot of times there can be self esteem issues whether it be in the form of sabotaging relationships or else wise.

 

Yea, I know. I was trying to make that point, but forgot to add it in my response. Ah, but no matter, you understand.