What if she always insisted on paying for you?

[sally4sara]

I would say this. A woman I have plans for, anything beyond a fling but not necessarily a wife, as a man I would rather be the primary supporter.

 

Not saying a woman who always picks up the bill I would not see as long term material, but it will drastically change the dynamics of the relationship in a way that really wouldn't make me feel comfortable.

 

Think of Oprah, Martha Stewart type of women who do have a long term partner, but in the eyes of most men, they seem more to me "kept" men, than the man in the relationship.

 

Don't get me wrong, not saying men would just use you up, you may actually find a man that likes that arrangement and is good to you, but the "type" of man he is (alpha dominant aggressive vs. beta submissive passive) is what you are going to have to live with.

 

If you like assertive men, don't expect him to last long in that situation. If you are attracted to men who you can boss around and make the decisions, then keep doing what you are doing.

 

Oh I'm not plotting or anything; I'm not even on the market. Most of my adult dating happened later because I got married young. So really I didn't date as an adult till my mid late 20s. I usually went dutch myself and only ran into a few guys who were really put off over that or when they had insisted on paying and I tried to reciprocate.

 

But the whole paying thing gets talked about so much on here and the few times it was awkward that I experienced kinda fascinated me. So much is wrapped up into that one little moment that we've all dealt with. Entertainment costs so dating will have a price tag no matter what the style. You'd think we would have it down to a science by now, but its still so contested. Just look how even in your examples, it has to be so extreme either way.

She has to value your monetary holdings for you to feel comfortable having long term goals for her. If she isn't, you expect to be slotted as submissive.

How could a woman feel comfortable with only those options? Valuing you for your money and being submissive or being a passing fancy with maybe some long shot chance of being considered for something serious if she isn't materialistic. There has to be a middle ground for folks if not just for you right?

 

But when I started dating, it just seemed everyone men asking me out or some of my female friends, just expect that the guy is going to pick up the tab. Looking at the motivators behind it made it seem accepting that gesture was more for them and what they got out of it came with a much higher price tag than my share of the bill. Going dutch just seemed a common ground without all the icky power play crap.

[sally4sara]

I am not sure I get your point. I'm a man, not a woman. I couldn't possibly replace a mother.

If you are merely talking about mundane tasks, I can cook, clean, do the laundry, etc.. I don't need a woman for that. However, I hate doing the laundry (especially ironing), so I am truly grateful if a gf does that for me.

 

As far as I am concerned, believing in certain gender roles when it comes to dating is a good thing.

 

Sure you could if you had to; men can do anything they put their minds to except giving birth. I bet if you had to you'd be just as good as any single mother getting it done because you'd love your kid or kids enough to do it. And being a mom isn't about domestic stuff because we all have to do it at some point to even know how to do it as a parent.

 

Men are just as capable as women.

[Str8noChaser]

I think you're overthinking it

 

Once of the concepts of dating, at least in the initial stages, sets the stage and tone for the relationship between those two people.

 

It really doesn't have to be that deep. First 2 or 3 dates, I am mentally prepared to pay the bill. Once we are in some sort of relationship, that expectation is still on my mind, but I am receptive to her footing the tab once or catching the tip or the valet.

 

I don't think the average man goes into it with any sort of anxiety (unless he's dead broke, in which case he really shouldn't be attempting to seriously date IMO) of bill paying.

 

Do what works for you and the men that you are dating.

[sally4sara]

I think you're overthinking it

 

Once of the concepts of dating, at least in the initial stages, sets the stage and tone for the relationship between those two people.

 

It really doesn't have to be that deep. First 2 or 3 dates, I am mentally prepared to pay the bill. Once we are in some sort of relationship, that expectation is still on my mind, but I am receptive to her footing the tab once or catching the tip or the valet.

 

I don't think the average man goes into it with any sort of anxiety (unless he's dead broke, in which case he really shouldn't be attempting to seriously date IMO) of bill paying.

 

Do what works for you and the men that you are dating.

 

Oh I did. I just find it interesting how much people can read into such a small social interaction. I get that its a throw back from when women didn't so commonly work or when they did it was for a smaller wage. But thats been irrelevant for so long now. Yet it still factors in so much today with such mixed reviews and motives.

 

Gold digger, sucker, power play, needy, submissive, dominant, entitled, macho, self absorbed, materialistic, traditional, playboy, archaic, pampering.

 

Dutch was the only way I found to just not participate in whatever the person might read into who pays the bill and still a few managed to react opposed.

[dispatch3d]

I would give you a strange look, like what, let it happen, and be very confused. Probably think on it a bit, not fully understanding what is going on.

 

Likely pay for the next date? I mean, definitely in love cause there's no way you're a feminist/probably don't have a ton of those entitlement issues that so many girls have and are so unbelievably fun to deal with hahaha .

 

Anyways, the difference between this thread and the men paying threads is ****ing shocking. Honestly, the men paying threads were just women expressing a sense of entitlement to how guys should feel like they HAVE TO pay (seriously **** off lol) or how guys don't want to pay because it's not 50/50, whatever. They they get called cheap, yadayada and off to the gates of hell where you meet the devil and he teaches you how to deal with hate with more hate.

 

Peace yo.

[sally4sara]

I try to imagine a female friend coming to me with a problem. She lays it out and the problem ends up being that they guy she has begun seeing always pays for the tab.

Never had this problem brought to me by any female friend. No one is going to blink if some girl says she never picks up the tab. She could make just as much as him and not many people would raise an eyebrow. Even if she was flat broke it would just seem normal.

 

But one of our guy friends has been unemployed for a bit and talks about how he doesn't feel justified in chatting up any women because he is broke. That is would be weird to have a girl ask him out and offer to pay so they can go out together.

And then comes how weird both men and women would find it if some girl of moderate means always pays the tab of some guy, let alone if he makes just as much as her. And if he is broke he just plain old triflin.

[EasyHeart]

It's never happened (not even once, dammit!!!), so this is a strictly hypothetical situation for me.

 

If a woman is very insistent about ANYTHING during the first few dates, it generally sets off huge red flags for me. It usually means she is insecure and has control issues, so i proceed slowly and bail if it continues, or at the first sign of any other problems.

 

If there were some reason for it --- like she was an heiress (why, oh why do I never meet any heiresses?!?!) or she says "Let's let my ******* ex-husband pay for our dinner", I'd be all over it.

 

I have several buddies who always insist on picking up the tab when we go out. I think for them it's about showing off. Personally, I don't understand how they are one-upping me by paying for my lunch, but I don't have any problem with it. I say, "Thanks" and think "Woo-hoo! I got a free lunch!"

[sally4sara]

I would give you a strange look, like what, let it happen, and be very confused. Probably think on it a bit, not fully understanding what is going on.

 

Likely pay for the next date? I mean, definitely in love cause there's no way you're a feminist/probably don't have a ton of those entitlement issues that so many girls have and are so unbelievably fun to deal with hahaha .

 

Anyways, the difference between this thread and the men paying threads is ****ing shocking. Honestly, the men paying threads were just women expressing a sense of entitlement to how guys should feel like they HAVE TO pay (seriously **** off lol) or how guys don't want to pay because it's not 50/50, whatever. They they get called cheap, yadayada and off to the gates of hell where you meet the devil and he teaches you how to deal with hate with more hate.

 

Peace yo.

 

But I am a feminist. Well, more a humanist, but I arrived there via feminism.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I try to imagine a female friend coming to me with a problem. She lays it out and the problem ends up being that they guy she has begun seeing always pays for the tab.

Never had this problem brought to me by any female friend. No one is going to blink if some girl says she never picks up the tab. She could make just as much as him and not many people would raise an eyebrow. Even if she was flat broke it would just seem normal.

But one of our guy friends has been unemployed for a bit and talks about how he doesn't feel justified in chatting up any women because he is broke. That is would be weird to have a girl ask him out and offer to pay so they can go out together.

And then comes how weird both men and women would find it if some girl of moderate means always pays the tab of some guy, let alone if he makes just as much as her. And if he is broke he just plain old triflin.

 

FF was right earlier in the thread. Paying is a sign of power and dominance.

 

If I pay for you... that makes you less. It puts you into my debt.

 

With that in mind... I would not allow a woman to pay for me. If she wanted to pay for herself I would understand and depending on her reasons consider her wise.

 

But I am a feminist. Well, more a humanist, but I arrived there via feminism.

 

Sometimes you have to be evil first to learn how to be good.

[musemaj11]

You meet a lady you find interesting and start chatting. You agree to go out on a date. Nice conversation over dinner and you're happy to have met someone you find attractive and interesting.

 

The check comes. She insists on paying for you both.

 

A second date goes the same. The check comes. She insists on paying for you both.

 

And a third.

And a fourth.

 

So how do you feel about it fellas? Thanking your lucky stars? Feeling emasculated? Suspicious and not sure whats going on?

I distrust people who insist on ALWAYS paying. Both men and women.

 

Im aware however that some people are just extremely generous. But these people need to realize that too much pampering is never healthy and its going to hurt everyone in the end.

 

Taking turns is the way to go. No splitting for me.

 

Anyway, personally Im a very egalitarian person. The word 'traditional' disgusts me. For me if a woman expects me to spend any money on her, I lose all respect.

 

Just a few weeks ago I rejected a girl who asked me out because she said the wrong words. She told me, "I will let you buy me dinner." I mean she already expected to leech off me by the first date and she was the asker? WTF?

 

I have been looking everywhere for feminist girls but they are hard to find. Im in college and these 'modern thinking' girls should be all over but no. On the opposite, Cinderella Complex can be found more easily among them.

 

She buys you dinner - you feel owned.

What you fail to understand is that due to social conditioning, consciously or subconsciously men still do feel that by paying they own the women.

 

Money is power. It seems to be so hard for a lot of women to understand.

 

Depends on my intentions with her. If I see her as a short term thing, I may let her pay as much as she wants to since I have no real plans for her.

I dont understand people with such low integrity.

 

Dont you feel anything when you take advantage of people?

 

But I wonder too if being the payee can be seen as a power move. While you feel empowered by paying - couldn't the other person also feel empowered by having gained something they didn't pay for or achieving some mental stroke for having resolved the bill through the one paying?

In reality, the one with the free meal is the one in power, but a lot of men are too foolish to realize.

 

Women who relish being seen as the weak and the dependent are clever women. They know that as long as society see them as such, they can continue to expect others to protect and provide for them without getting any negative stigma.

Edited December 18, 2010 by musemaj11

[Stockalone]

Sure you could if you had to; men can do anything they put their minds to except giving birth. I bet if you had to you'd be just as good as any single mother getting it done because you'd love your kid or kids enough to do it. And being a mom isn't about domestic stuff because we all have to do it at some point to even know how to do it as a parent.

 

Men are just as capable as women.

 

Ultimately, each of us is replaceable. Still, when it comes to losing a loved one, they will always be missed in some way. Life without them is never the same IMO.

 

I mentioned the household chores, because I thought that is what you think is behind the gender role thing and paying for dates. That men are looking to find a maid, nanny, or whatever to do things they can't (or won't) do by themselves. Or because they think women can't take care of themselves (pay their own way if they had to).

 

 

But one of our guy friends has been unemployed for a bit and talks about how he doesn't feel justified in chatting up any women because he is broke. That is would be weird to have a girl ask him out and offer to pay so they can go out together.

 

That actually makes perfect sense to me. The last time I met a woman who I would have liked to go out with, I wasn't working either.

 

The first thing I did, before even trying to ask her out, was looking over the job offers I had gotten before, but never considered because I was single and didn't need the money.

 

Turns out she wasn't interested in dating me, so I didn't take the job I had lined up in case she would have gone out with me.

[kdark]

FF was right earlier in the thread. Paying is a sign of power and dominance.

 

If I pay for you... that makes you less. It puts you into my debt.

 

With that in mind... I would not allow a woman to pay for me. If she wanted to pay for herself I would understand and depending on her reasons consider her wise.

 

 

 

Sometimes you have to be evil first to learn how to be good.

 

I actually see paying as a sign of insecurity. A person who insists on paying to me seems like someone who is unable to establish power and dominance in any other way other than their checkbook. I never felt empowered whenever I would pay for women on dates. I would feel used.

 

And I'm just curious, what do you expect in return when these women become indebted to you once you pay for them?

[waynebrady]

I'd never let a woman pay. I'm the man, I pay and thats final. I'm usually against alot of these traditional things men have to do... But when it comes to paying, I would like to pay. It shows I have the upper hand financially.

 

I wouldn't want to be with a woman who earns more than me. Women have the upper hand in everything else in a relationship, so if I'm gonna do all the work, initiate every contact, every date and do all the chasing... Then I'm gonna pay for everything and be the moneymaker too.

[dispatch3d]

But I am a feminist. Well, more a humanist, but I arrived there via feminism.

 

A humanist and a feminist are two totally different things to me.

 

To me feminists have a habit of blaming everything either on society or men. It all comes down to "x behaviour is unfair to us" and they can cast almost any issue in this light. It's incredibly convenient. Most of the issues (I would hazard to guess 80%) that feminists take up I couldn't agree more with (that they are a problem).

 

However, I just about stop there with my agreement. Their approach, of trying to change the world or society or blablabla I absolutely do not agree with. I think they bring the entire world down. They don't usually attempt to do ANYTHING themselves, just "raise awareness" of the issue. :/

 

Of course I'm a buddhist, so it's pretty understandable why I would dislike feminist opinions. They are entitled to them, don't get me wrong, I just think they bring about even more suffering than they bring about good-will.

 

I have feminists as friends and ask their opinions on things, why they are feminists, etc. etc. I just don't share my own opinion because it would start an argument (obviously). I've also read articles by feminists to see if my view of them is accurate or not.

 

Anyways, that's my rant.

 

Also, I don't view "who pays" as any kind of power struggle, someone establishing dominence, yadayada. It's just an act, paying for a dinner, and doesn't really represent any true meaning except that it may reflect positively or negatively on the person doing it. In the case of the guy though, it doesn't represent anything as it's an expectation of society.

[sally4sara]

A humanist and a feminist are two totally different things to me.

 

To me feminists have a habit of blaming everything either on society or men. It all comes down to "x behaviour is unfair to us" and they can cast almost any issue in this light. It's incredibly convenient. Most of the issues (I would hazard to guess 80%) that feminists take up I couldn't agree more with (that they are a problem).

 

However, I just about stop there with my agreement. Their approach, of trying to change the world or society or blablabla I absolutely do not agree with. I think they bring the entire world down. They don't usually attempt to do ANYTHING themselves, just "raise awareness" of the issue. :/

 

Of course I'm a buddhist, so it's pretty understandable why I would dislike feminist opinions. They are entitled to them, don't get me wrong, I just think they bring about even more suffering than they bring about good-will.

 

I have feminists as friends and ask their opinions on things, why they are feminists, etc. etc. I just don't share my own opinion because it would start an argument (obviously). I've also read articles by feminists to see if my view of them is accurate or not.

 

Anyways, that's my rant.

 

Also, I don't view "who pays" as any kind of power struggle, someone establishing dominence, yadayada. It's just an act, paying for a dinner, and doesn't really represent any true meaning except that it may reflect positively or negatively on the person doing it. In the case of the guy though, it doesn't represent anything as it's an expectation of society.

 

I see feminism kind like how Anakin was for the force. He seemed like a bad guy to some, but he brought Luke in to the mix and order was achieved.

 

We had Patriarchy; which as unbalanced.

Then came a change to that - Feminism(Darth Vadar). It had to be extreme to break the preset mold.

So now I have my eye on Humanism (Luke); its the only real race after all.

 

:lmao::lmao:

[loverofloveandstuff]

Seems like she is showing off or just really wants a relationship, so she is buying it from you? I think you should insist on paying for now on...

 

What?? I totally disagree with this. I often pay, I am not showing off and I hardly ever want a relationship with the person.

 

And for all those who say paying is a sign of power, that might be the case but I definitely do not pay to assert power. I want the man to the be the man in the relationship and I want him to take control, I just like it that way. I can't be sexually attracted to somebody who I feel like I have power over. I just feel bad if I don't pay, I have a lot of friends who are complete gold diggers and open about it. I guess I have a complex of being seen like that so I ALWAYS offer to pay.

Edited December 18, 2010 by loverofloveandstuff

[sally4sara]

After reading all the upper hand power struggle stuff, I'm even more convinced Dutch is the best way to go.

Its not like any of the guys wanting some illusion of the upper hand are going to let their date know what their motives are. "Hey baby, I own you now heh heh heh."

 

And I doubt women who view being paid for as some illusion of being on a pedestal are going to admit that motive to their date. "Show me why I bothered going out with you tee hee."

 

This one little social gesture hides so much nasty intent all wrapped up to look pretty or complimentary when it really isn't. Even the people who have a good intent can't control how its perceived.

[sally4sara]

Anyway, personally Im a very egalitarian person. The word 'traditional' disgusts me. For me if a woman expects me to spend any money on her, I lose all respect.

 

Just a few weeks ago I rejected a girl who asked me out because she said the wrong words. She told me, "I will let you buy me dinner." I mean she already expected to leech off me by the first date and she was the asker? WTF?

 

I think she was probably playing coy. You could have been playful back and said that buying you dinner might get her the company she is wanting. Quick wrote offs could just have you getting sensitive over a joke.

 

 

What you fail to understand is that due to social conditioning, consciously or subconsciously men still do feel that by paying they own the women.

 

Money is power. It seems to be so hard for a lot of women to understand.

 

 

I dont understand people with such low integrity.

 

Dont you feel anything when you take advantage of people?

 

 

In reality, the one with the free meal is the one in power, but a lot of men are too foolish to realize.

 

I hope when you say that men DO feel that paying gives them some ownership of their date, its an exaggeration. That is just super entitled! Thinking like that can't be the common or we'd have never had an ERA or abolished slavery. If that was still the common thought then there would be all the reason in the world for a continued uber feminism wave. Its such a tiresome facade.

[EasyHeart]

This one little social gesture hides so much nasty intent all wrapped up to look pretty or complimentary when it really isn't. Even the people who have a good intent can't control how its perceived.

You seem quite obsessed with this one rather insignificant act.

 

I'm sure there are nutcases of both genders: men who think paying gives them "ownership" of a woman and women who think they deserve to be showered with gifts. But I think that number is pretty small.

 

Most men do it because it is expected of us. Every time the topic comes up in LS, women pretty uniformly say "guy pays". Whenever I've discussed this issue with my RL female friends, they have uniformly (and emphatically) said "Guy pays or no second date". Just a couple weeks ago, a good female friend went on a blind date. When the bill came, the guy made no effort to pick it up, and after she looked at it, he said, "Let's just split it" (she had one drink and an appetizer; he had 3 drinks and a full meal). She was leaning towards going out with him again, but that single act made her decide she wasn't interested in seeing him again.

 

So I think you should consider that much of human social behavior is dictated by convention. I realize that is feminist dogma that all men are constantly seeking to oppress and control women, but like most dogma it has little connection to reality.

 

When I hold a door open for someone or take my hat off when I go inside a building, it is not an act of command and control, nor is it an effort to establish my dominance. It's because my mom and my teachers taught me that those are things that people with manners do. Similarly, women have taught me that "guy pays or he doesn't get another date". There is not hidden nasty intent, and I think you are in an extreme minority of women who perceive a man picking up a check as being negative behavior.

[sally4sara]

You seem quite obsessed with this one rather insignificant act.

 

Well I did say it fascinated me.

 

I'm sure there are nutcases of both genders: men who think paying gives them "ownership" of a woman and women who think they deserve to be showered with gifts. But I think that number is pretty small.

 

Most men do it because it is expected of us. Every time the topic comes up in LS, women pretty uniformly say "guy pays". Whenever I've discussed this issue with my RL female friends, they have uniformly (and emphatically) said "Guy pays or no second date". Just a couple weeks ago, a good female friend went on a blind date. When the bill came, the guy made no effort to pick it up, and after she looked at it, he said, "Let's just split it" (she had one drink and an appetizer; he had 3 drinks and a full meal). She was leaning towards going out with him again, but that single act made her decide she wasn't interested in seeing him again.

 

So I think you should consider that much of human social behavior is dictated by convention. I realize that is feminist dogma that all men are constantly seeking to oppress and control women, but like most dogma it has little connection to reality.

 

When I hold a door open for someone or take my hat off when I go inside a building, it is not an act of command and control, nor is it an effort to establish my dominance. It's because my mom and my teachers taught me that those are things that people with manners do. Similarly, women have taught me that "guy pays or he doesn't get another date". There is not hidden nasty intent, and I think you are in an extreme minority of women who perceive a man picking up a check as being negative behavior.

 

I didn't perceive it that way till it was presented that way. I entered dating thinking I'd pay for items I wanted and they would do the same. As I said, its mostly due to only experiencing adult dating after my marriage ended. The dance that ensued and the attitudes on here are what had me thinking more about the expectations and motives behind paying for both or expecting to be treated. The leverage of it and how much people read into it fascinates me because it wasn't a relevant tool in my current relationship. How is it that so much reaction goes into this one little courting moment if other couples sometimes don't even use it?

 

It makes me wonder if all the "I'd never date someone who does/doesn't" crowd just comes on here and blows hot air. While in reality they are not so staunchly convicted to anything. Just liking the way their bold statements look in print.

[musemaj11]

After reading all the upper hand power struggle stuff, I'm even more convinced Dutch is the best way to go.

Its not like any of the guys wanting some illusion of the upper hand are going to let their date know what their motives are. "Hey baby, I own you now heh heh heh."

 

And I doubt women who view being paid for as some illusion of being on a pedestal are going to admit that motive to their date. "Show me why I bothered going out with you tee hee."

 

This one little social gesture hides so much nasty intent all wrapped up to look pretty or complimentary when it really isn't. Even the people who have a good intent can't control how its perceived.

I just laugh when a woman says, "I like it when a man pays because it shows that he cares."

 

No he doesnt. Paying means nothing. Money is often a shortcut that men use to a woman's heart or something that men spend because they feel that society expects them to be the ones spending money.

 

If you wanna see how much a man cares, judging by whether he spends money on you or not means you are doing it wrong. You know he cares if you get lost somewhere in the middle of the night and you call him and he is on the way to get you within 3 mins, you know he cares if you tell him your favorite ice cream and the next thing you know he shows up with your favorite ice cream in hand, you know he cares if after he sees you exhausted from work, he goes down on you and expects nothing in return, and so forth.

 

Its the little things that require more effort and consideration instead of money that you should pay more attention to.

 

As you can deduct from what the guys say in this thread, when a man ALWAYS INSISTS to pay, 99% chance, he does it not because he cares. He does it to tell you where your place is and that place is below him. At subconscious level, chivalry and sexism are heavily intertwined.

 

I think she was probably playing coy. You could have been playful back and said that buying you dinner might get her the company she is wanting. Quick wrote offs could just have you getting sensitive over a joke.

You are probably right. Actually I did think she said that maybe in her attempt to make it appear that I asked her out instead of the other way around. I wanted to playfully say to her what you said but honestly I did not think I could see her as more than a friend and I did not want to ruin our relationship so I just pretended like I did not get her hint.

 

I hope when you say that men DO feel that paying gives them some ownership of their date, its an exaggeration. That is just super entitled! Thinking like that can't be the common or we'd have never had an ERA or abolished slavery. If that was still the common thought then there would be all the reason in the world for a continued uber feminism wave. Its such a tiresome facade.

Errr, since the dawn of mankind until 30 years ago, men directly or indirectly buying women had been the social norm. That subconscious mentality is not going to disappear suddenly in such a short period of time.

 

The same thing with why today most women still expect to be 'bought' by men and they see that how much the men are willing to spend is how much they value them. Such primitive thinking is so ingrained in us that its not going to vanish overnight.

Edited December 18, 2010 by musemaj11

[Art_Critic]

Well, I might be a bit unsure of what was going on, exactly, but I sure would be tempted to push the envelope a bit.

 

"What would you think about lobster again tonight?"

 

"Wow honey, check out that Beretta So-4 shotgun! Uh oh. It costs 8 grand, darn it. Too bad, I sure would love to have something like that ..."

 

"Any thoughts on a 18 day safari to the Serengeti and Kilimanjaro?"

 

...

 

I think I'd push the envelope some too.. say.. sex.. does that mean I have to put out for her.. YES !!

 

I've always paid for dates and when the woman has offered to pay I have always managed to get the check out of her hands somehow..

 

In reality.. if a woman paid every date I might feel a bit like GT and I'd feel unsure about what was going on..

I wouldn't just sit back though and let her pay my way without a fight

[musemaj11]

Sometimes I think of how it feels to be a trophy husband.

 

But unlike women, I cant bring myself to have sex every day with an ugly rich woman who is 30 years older than myself ...

[112233]

Sometimes I think of how it feels to be a trophy husband.

 

But unlike women, I cant bring myself to have sex every day with an ugly rich woman who is 30 years older than myself ...

 

I want the deal my ex got.