Open Marriage and very happy

[John Bigboote]

Woinlove was at least honest about her being the person in her marriage to first bring up the idea of having sex with other people, so presumably she was the one who was dissatisfied. The others, lovinghimlovingher and John Big Boote (great movie, BTW) haven't addressed this question.

 

I want you to understand how rude and insulting you sound when you "presume" things about people and tell them that they are delusional or liars ("doesn't ring true") when talking about subjects (themselves) you know nothing about. We've all answered this question multiple times, and you just do not seem to have your listening ears on. I answered your question in post #121.

 

I am willing to give answering you on your own terms a try, but it makes me angry that you insist that there must be something wrong about my kick-ass relationship in order for me to have the relationship I do. I am going to do this once only, and then if you continue not to hear the answer people are giving you, I am giving up on getting through to you.

 

And it was a great movie.

 

To restate it: since you seem to want to know the EVENT that triggered something, then the event that made me realize consciously that monogamy was the wrong relationship mode for me was falling in love with two people at once. I listened to people like you who told me I was delusional and broke up with them both, causing two people I loved serious unnecessary pain. Pain is bad. Hurting people you love is Very Bad. What had convinced me to cause this pain was the mythology of monogamy. So I realized that monogamy was not for me. That was the conscious moment of realization, but I had already been behaving in what was essentially a poly way since forever. It's how I was built.

 

And then I waited... a LONG time. For someone compatible with me and who felt the same way about responsible nonmonogamy. I finally found that person and married her. Now, I want you to listen very carefully to this next sentence: we have been nonmonogamous since before we were even dating. We discussed the kind of relationship we wanted to have before we had our first date.

 

Our nonmonogamy is not due to our failure to be monogamous. We're nonmonogamous because we wanted to be from the very, very outset. We're nonmonogamous because we like it that way, and for no other reason. We do not want the kind of relationship you want. Our relationship does not represent our failure to be you.

 

Does that answer your question?

 

I can also tell you things that aren't reasons we're nonmonogamous (wife & I). We aren't nonmonogamous because we think it will improve our sex life. I think it does, but that is incidental. We aren't nonmonogamous because we don't like ****ing each other. We aren't nonmonogamous because we're "missing" anything. We're not nonmonogamous in an attempt to "fix" anything about our relationship. There is nothing wrong with our relationship that needs "fixing." Our relationship was nonmonogamous from the start, because we like it that way.

 

Why do we like it that way? *shrug* Why do some people like chocolate and others like vanilla? Liking chocolate doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with vanilla, or that we suffered some kind of stroke that prevented us from liking vanilla. It means chocolate tastes better to us.

 

Have you ever eaten at a restaurant? Did eating at a restaurant mean that you were dissatisfied with your wife's cooking? What I want to know is WHY you eat at restaurants sometimes when there is perfectly good food back home.

 

Finally, I can tell you what it feels like for me personally. This probably doesn't apply to others trying to tell you about this. For me, loving/****ing one person has little or nothing to do with ability or desirability to love/**** someone else too. My loving/****ing Jane has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to love/**** Mary. I love my wife, but I love my friends too. I have sex with them because it's a bonding experience. I enjoy being able to show physical affection for people I care about--- ALL the people I care about, without having to worry that someone is going to feel threatened over it. If I can't show people the physical affection I feel for them, I get frustrated, miserable, and upset. Loving and ****ing my friends doesn't mean for one moment that I don't fully and completely love and **** my wife.

 

And if you must know, that is how I view monogamy: an artificial bull**** restriction on who I'm allowed to show affection for. But that conflicts with the reality that I have affection for lots of people. I read this board and all I really see are people discussing how to cut off love and affection for others not their partner, or even cut off intimacy with their partner (as in for instance, when people advise that you should never discuss your previous sex partners with them. But your wife is "supposed" to be your best friend that you tell everything to!) I perceive monogamy as a barrier to closeness rather than a facilitator. I'm just not interested. I want to feel intimate and connected with more than just one person. The restriction to one person chafes at me and feels wrong and unnatural, and it's completely unnecessary for the happiness of anyone in the picture. I see no possible upside to it at all. In short, as far as I am concerned, for the purposes of my relationships, monogamy sucks tremendous ass. You can keep it. I am not even interested in ever attempting to go there. Especially when doing so would cut connections and hurt people I care about.

 

IF your marriage is perfect, WHY eff other men?

My marriage is perfect because I can eff other women. No marriage that includes monogamy could ever be perfect, or even remotely desirable, for me. So I choose not to engage in them.

 

but very few of you can answer the why question, or choose to. If you don't want to, tell me and I will quit asking.

Why do you like the things you like? Why do you like coke and not pepsi? Why do you like Ford but not Toyota? Do you have a rational answer for things like that?

[NoLongerSad]

john bigboote,

 

you are awfully oversensitive for someone who claims he doesn't mind at all the notion of his wife's having huge orgasms with another man's penis in her anus.

[aerogurl87]

Regret but not feel remorse about.

 

I feel remorse about what I did, enough that I actually tried to make my relationship with my ex work despite the fact that I knew it was going to fail. Now did he feel remorse about leaving me for someone else and constantly cheating on me, no. But I still loved him every minute of everyday despite how much he hurt me and that is unconditional love, something a lot of people don't ever truly understand. But this thread isn't about me.

[aerogurl87]

By the way something no one mentioned, was this. What would happen if you or your partner were to impregnate or get pregnant by one of their partners and want to keep the child? Because as we know birth control and condoms aren't always 100% effective, so what would you do in that situation?

[JustJoe]

Thanks, John, that's what I wanted to hear, all along. What I didn't want to hear was a lot of cheerleading for Open marriages. Which was what I was getting. Repeatedly , I asked Why, but I couldn't seem to get any response except to blame and deride monogamy. I can fully understand not wanting to hurt other people, and wanting to be in a relationship with someone who is compatible with your beliefs and lifestyle. I disagree with you about monogamy, and feel that you are blaming traditional marriage for issues that you have, but it's your life. BTW, though it's not my thread, If I ask a question, I want the answer to that particular question. If you (pl) don't want to answer it, just say so. I 'm perfectly willing to go elsewhere for information. For example I just yesterday started visiting the Swingers Forum to get some answers. I really am fascinated by this thread, Thanks again.

[John Bigboote]

Phew. Glad we communicated

 

I've got nothing against traditional marriage or monogamy... for other people. It's not for me, but it dominates the culture and it was a tremendous struggle with that to come to this conclusion I'm telling you about.

Edited December 21, 2010 by John Bigboote

[woinlove]

JustJoe, I think I answered why, but I'll try wording it differently.

 

I am not tied by convention and I didn't think in terms of rejecting traditional marriage so much as I thought about what kind of life and relationship I would like. I thought a marriage which had both intimacy and commitment and freedom, together with openness and honesty, would make me happy and it turns out I was right. Life is all about human connections, and, although my H is by far the most important person in my life, I don't expect, need or want him to replace all other human interactions. We've chosen our boundaries for interactions with others at a place which works well for us, respects our values, and makes us happy.

[John Bigboote]

By the way something no one mentioned, was this. What would happen if you or your partner were to impregnate or get pregnant by one of their partners and want to keep the child? Because as we know birth control and condoms aren't always 100% effective, so what would you do in that situation?

 

BC and condoms aren't 100%, but neither are seat belts at keeping you unharmed in an accident. And yet I assume you still drive and you still wear seat belts.

 

If it happened, *shrug* kids are kids. Doesn't really bother me if they're not mine biologically. Being a father is more than being the sperm donor.

 

But neither of us want kids at all really... so we've seriously considered the permanent solutions. But that seems so.... permanent.

[aerogurl87]

BC and condoms aren't 100%, but neither are seat belts at keeping you unharmed in an accident. And yet I assume you still drive and you still wear seat belts.

 

If it happened, *shrug* kids are kids. Doesn't really bother me if they're not mine biologically. Being a father is more than being the sperm donor.

 

But neither of us want kids at all really... so we've seriously considered the permanent solutions. But that seems so.... permanent.

 

I'm sorry if you thought I was being rude or offending you but honestly it was something that I thought about. And yes I do drive a car, but no need to get hostile about the question.

[xxoo]

And if you must know, that is how I view monogamy: an artificial bull**** restriction on who I'm allowed to show affection for. But that conflicts with the reality that I have affection for lots of people.

 

Practical question--how do you meet and develop affection for likeminded people who you are also attracted to? It seems like a lot of stars to align!

 

I have lots of affection for lots of people, too. Some of them I am sexually attracted to and might want to sleep with if I were not in a monogamous relationship. Many, many others I am NOT sexually attracted to. And of those I am attracted to, perhaps many are not attracted to ME or are not poly themselves.....

 

How does it work that there is actually a pool of available, desirable partners for whom you feel affection?

 

How many people are poly in theory but mono in practice because of the practical difficulties of finding additional partners?

[John Bigboote]

Didn't mean to be hostile, and you didn't offend me. Just answering the question with a simile.

 

Obviously I have to work on my writing style.

[JustJoe]

For all of you "open marriage", advocates, I think we are in basic agreement about the importance of honesty and communication in any type of relationship and while I disagree strongly with your reasoning about sex with other people outside of the relationship, I can understand the motives for you doing so. I am a realist, , I don't think an arrangement, one of whose basic tenets is sex with multiple partners is either a realistic or positive example for others, particularly children, to emulate. The potential for physical and emotional harm is very great. I also feel that it lacks closeness, commitment,and respect. As a former Army Officer I have seen several of these types of "marriage", and NONE survived as Open marriage. They either ended, or became monogamous again. These are my opinions, and I will stand by them. Thanks for the great thread, LHLH.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I don't believe the bolded is true. Any friends I have of ANY stripes know the nature of our marriage and respect that. I'm happy to hear about their adventures, lol, but I'm not interested in an invitation.

 

Open or poly doesn't equal rude or socially inept.

 

Again an example, which I know happened to a couple I know. You make new friends, have interacted and get along. One night you go to their home and they basically tell one or both of you, together or apart, that they find you attractive and would you like to swap (the proverbial key party) or that they want to sleep with one or the other..... What would you do and how would that change the relationship?

 

BTW, our friends got up and left and have kept their distance since. Sorry I'd probably do the same or certainly be wary from that moment on.

[gisellefromhell]

I think it's kind of ****ed up that a lot more people can understand that it's possible to truly still be happy staying in a relationship where you have gotten cheated on, than the people who can understand that it's possible to be happy in an open marriage, where it's obviously based on being honest about each other's wants.

 

And it's also ****ed up how many people came on here judging this lifestyle on this thread, when the OP just wanted to unite other people happily doing the same things as her. Then you look at the "spin-off" thread and not one of the open marriage people would even want to judge their lifestyle.

 

I just think that if it's not for you, then it's not for you. Why call others names or try to invoke some kind of negative emotion just because you don't understand?

 

I don't think that I can have an open marriage, but I'm glad that some of you found happiness in it. It's very rare for it to work, and I applaud you.

[xxoo]

Again an example, which I know happened to a couple I know. You make new friends, have interacted and get along. One night you go to their home and they basically tell one or both of you, together or apart, that they find you attractive and would you like to swap (the proverbial key party) or that they want to sleep with one or the other..... What would you do and how would that change the relationship?

 

BTW, our friends got up and left and have kept their distance since. Sorry I'd probably do the same or certainly be wary from that moment on.

 

Oh, ok, yes, THAT situation.

 

Hasn't happened to me, but happened to friends-of-friends. What happens is that, as it seems to be in your case, word spreads and NO ONE wants to go to dinner at their house anymore

 

But "that" couple is not the typical open couple.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Oh, ok, yes, THAT situation.

 

Hasn't happened to me, but happened to friends-of-friends. What happens is that, as it seems to be in your case, word spreads and NO ONE wants to go to dinner at their house anymore

 

But "that" couple is not the typical open couple.

 

Or is this a "Swinging" Situation not to be confused with "Open Relationship", not to be confused with "Plyamorous".....

 

Oh yea.... Someone finally gets it..... Thanks.....

[Kendrick]

For some reason I thought "swinging" and "open marriage or relationship" was the same thing, but not sure.

[goingstrong]

Open relationship, swinging..whatever. It is all hedonism some controlled/ some uncontrolled.

[John Bigboote]

Practical question--how do you meet and develop affection for likeminded people who you are also attracted to? It seems like a lot of stars to align!

 

How does it work that there is actually a pool of available, desirable partners for whom you feel affection?

 

I don't want to leave the impression that only people open to sex with me can be my friends. The percentage of friends-I-**** is pretty small, actually. But in order for me to really feel an emotional bond of friendship with someone, I do have to feel OK flirting with them (or their wives ). Conversely, if I feel a friendship forming with someone, I will *always* want to flirt with them. I'm a big huge flirt. So if flirting is off limits for you, it would be hard for us to be close friends. Acquantiances, sure. But I won't be leaning on you for emotional support or anything.

 

And flirting is usually enough of that sexual connection for me. It never has to go any further. I have friends I've been just-flirting with for 20 years. So I typically find "special" friends by accident--- I don't actively seek them out. But if a friend wants to take the flirting further, everyone knows that's allowed to happen, so long as everyone has permission from the people they need to get permission from.

 

But there are alternatives. Entire subcultures exist that you wouldn't notice if you weren't looking for them. You can go to a swingers club or party, which we personally don't do all that much, but I highly recommend to anyone thinking seriously of going beyond monogamy. That's because they are (typically) friendly sex-positive places where you can sit down and have a friendly chat with people, like at a regular club, who have been doing it a while and get their experiences and never even venture into the back room where all the sex is happening. Even in the back room, there's never any pressure to actually do anything, discretion is the rule, and no always means no (It better--- otherwise you are unceremoniously booted half-naked out of paradise). Anyone who claims that open relationships can never, ever work and always fail have never interviewed the crowds at the swingers clubs. Wifey has a lot of "lifestyle-friends."

 

Poly people have no clubs, unfortunately. Occasionally, if she and I decide we actually want to go seek out someone new to *date*, we'll just go to the bar and ask someone or somecouple out on a date. Our success rate at finding people is not too bad. We have pretty good poly-dar. Just look for the couple each with arms around the other, but always facing away from each other, talking and flirting with *other* people

 

How many people are poly in theory but mono in practice because of the practical difficulties of finding additional partners?

A lot, I think. On the other hand, how many monogamous-identified cheaters would rather open up to their partners and be poly/swinging/open if they thought they could? I dunno.

 

Guys, sorry if I have been too abrasive. I should use smileys more. That's the internet for ya I guess. For me, anyway. I should cut it out. It's not making me a better person.

[JustJoe]

Something that bugs the sh*t out of me.. John, Woinlove, LHLH maybe you guys can answer this for me. You state that you are in "open marriages", then immediately begin to waffle. You eff other people, but wait, you're MOSTLY monogamous, you just do this, OCCASIONALLY.....sort of. Several times in your posts, I've noticed this. Back and forth it goes, . WE love each other completely, we are completely honest with each other, but we also both scr*w other people , on the side, but we are mostly together, so don't think we are weird or anything.:rolleyes: We're really just like you vanillas...in most things, we're not pervs we're good tax-payers. This kind of stuff. . Wishy-washy cra*p like this is another reason that I'm skeptical about this "open marriage", business. If it's so great, why all the angst? Nothing arouses my suspicions like waffling. It's like those adverts where they offer a seemingly great deal, but then this voice comes on and starts to list the conditions so fast that you can barely understand them. Has me reaching for my a$$ every time.

Edited December 22, 2010 by JustJoe

[JustJoe]

And before you guys answer, I'm not saying you are being untruthful, just that it seems that you are worried that people will take you the wrong way.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I don't want to leave the impression that only people open to sex with me can be my friends. The percentage of friends-I-**** is pretty small, actually. But in order for me to really feel an emotional bond of friendship with someone, I do have to feel OK flirting with them (or their wives ). Conversely, if I feel a friendship forming with someone, I will *always* want to flirt with them. I'm a big huge flirt. So if flirting is off limits for you, it would be hard for us to be close friends.

 

I like your honesty and harbour no ill will at all (not at this time of year). But knowing you're in that lifestyle and will flirt with my wife would make me very very uncomfortable and you will (consciously or unconsciously) always push the boundaries or it will hover above us.

 

We have a friend a huge flirt, but that is all..... We know it, laugh but know with 100% confidence that is it.....

[JustJoe]

I like your honesty and harbour no ill will at all (not at this time of year). But knowing you're in that lifestyle and will flirt with my wife would make me very very uncomfortable and you will (consciously or unconsciously) always push the boundaries or it will hover above us.

 

We have a friend a huge flirt, but that is all..... We know it, laugh but know with 100% confidence that is it.....

Yes I can see where this would be a major problem. John, do you carry lots of health insurance, and have an oral surgeon on retainer?

[Lovinhimlovinher]

I see that you haven't been here long enough to PM, so it's ok. You seemed to have an issue with what I said, and I was just inviting you to tell me personally , if you didn't want to do so on the general thread. That's all.

 

 

I am assuming you mean private message? I am just not sure how to do that yet. I would be happy to give you my email addy but didn't want to just post it on here.

[JustJoe]

That's OK, LHLH. You have to be on the site for 30 days or a certain number of posts, to get PM enabled. You are probably getting close.