I Grow a Little Weary of Stereotypes RE: BS

[Summer Breeze]

Where oh where did anyone say their marriage didn't have issues? Some how the revisionist view of what was said is in play. I don't know about the rest of the posters but when I spoke of the OW I spoke only of MY situation and I also stated that some of the stereotypes about BS are true fro some BS. By the same token the stereotypes for some AP are also true. Those blinkers don't just come in one size and they all don't have BS engraved on them...some of them have AP engraved.

 

Post 16 by Spark.

 

The blinkers are sported by all involved in As but my point was to BS who beleive there is no dysfunction in Ms. Also keep in mind I do not think that dysfunction or rough patches should be excuses for As.

[turnstone]

What she actually said was a little different than the impression you give, Summer Breeze.

 

There was no dysfunction in our marriage, only what he himself created in his self-imposed mid-life crisis. But I too loved him, or rather, the man he had been pre-affair, and very, very tentatively, began to rebuild trust with him.

 

Rather, it was her WH who developed the dysfunction, rather than any problem within the marriage itself.

[Summer Breeze]

What she actually said was a little different than the impression you give, Summer Breeze.

 

 

 

Rather, it was her WH who developed the dysfunction, rather than any problem within the marriage itself.

 

I understood it perfectly. I responded to how I read it. I give no impression other than my opinion of what is written and my years of seeing others and my experience as a BS who thought at the time there was no dysfunction in my M.

 

I gave my viewpoint just as everyone else does. I feel that if someone cheats there is some serious dysfunction within the M. I don't disagree with the vast majority of it coming from the WS but I just can't see where the M isn't dysfunctional.

 

As far as not seeing it before finding the WS out-been there and done that.

[turnstone]

OK, first up I don't think I even hinted at your view being unwelcome, not sure where you got that from.

 

I understand your opinion and I understand that your experience tells you that if a marriage that suffers infidelity it must be dysfunctional, but other BS's obviously have an experience that contradicts that. By insisting that you are right and a BS who disagrees with you must be wrong, is a little like contradicting someone who's tells you they're hungry. A BS with a lot of time and effort dedicated to understanding him/herself, his/her WS, their relationship and the EMR is the best person to know whether their own marriage was dysfunctional or not.

[bentnotbroken]

Post 16 by Spark.

 

The blinkers are sported by all involved in As but my point was to BS who beleive there is no dysfunction in Ms. Also keep in mind I do not think that dysfunction or rough patches should be excuses for As.

 

 

She said there was no dysfunction...she did not say there were no problems. Every marriage has problems. Problems do not = dysfunction.

[bentnotbroken]

What she actually said was a little different than the impression you give, Summer Breeze.

 

 

 

Rather, it was her WH who developed the dysfunction, rather than any problem within the marriage itself.

 

 

I didn't read your response before I posted. This is what I read also. The term dysfunction is used liberally in cases where no dysfunction exists, much like NPD and split up selves.

[Summer Breeze]

She said there was no dysfunction...she did not say there were no problems. Every marriage has problems. Problems do not = dysfunction.

 

I agree with everything you said. I also believe that for someone to go on to have an A the problems have moved on to (or there is separate) dysfunction.

[Summer Breeze]

OK, first up I don't think I even hinted at your view being unwelcome, not sure where you got that from.

 

I understand your opinion and I understand that your experience tells you that if a marriage that suffers infidelity it must be dysfunctional, but other BS's obviously have an experience that contradicts that. By insisting that you are right and a BS who disagrees with you must be wrong, is a little like contradicting someone who's tells you they're hungry. A BS with a lot of time and effort dedicated to understanding him/herself, his/her WS, their relationship and the EMR is the best person to know whether their own marriage was dysfunctional or not.

 

I haven't got a clue where you picked up I thought you said my view wasn't welcome.

 

Well it's as sensible as someone telling every OW that every MM lies to every OW because they KNOW that every MM lies to every OW and there are no exceptions. We all know there are exceptions to everything in life and I'd agree there is a small minority of MM who don't lie just as there are a small minority of Ms that end in As that are not dysfunctional. I still believe that the vast majority are and we don't like to admit or accept it. Like I said-me included.

[Spark1111]

I haven't got a clue where you picked up I thought you said my view wasn't welcome.

 

Well it's as sensible as someone telling every OW that every MM lies to every OW because they KNOW that every MM lies to every OW and there are no exceptions. We all know there are exceptions to everything in life and I'd agree there is a small minority of MM who don't lie just as there are a small minority of Ms that end in As that are not dysfunctional. I still believe that the vast majority are and we don't like to admit or accept it. Like I said-me included.

 

Well,as a marriage takes two people fully engaged to be workable and or willing to fix problems....I guess this could be true, or is often true.

 

But there is just too much research out there that supports one partner emotionally distancing themselves from their spouse and their marriage way before they crash into the AP!

 

Affairs do happen in happy marriages, and they happen often.

 

In those cases, and they are numerous, the problem? dysfunction? unmet and unexpressed need lies within the WS.

[112233]

Well,as a marriage takes two people fully engaged to be workable and or willing to fix problems....I guess this could be true, or is often true.

 

Affairs do happen in happy marriages, and they happen often.

 

Define happy marriage.

 

If someone feels the need to distance themselves, how is that "happy"? I'd say it's almost a definition of being unhappy, is it not?

[Spark1111]

Define happy marriage.

 

If someone feels the need to distance themselves, how is that "happy"? I'd say it's almost a definition of being unhappy, is it not?

 

Absolutely!

 

But this is like a chicken and the egg discussion....what came first?

 

Did the person grow unhappy first and then blame the marriage and distance themselves from their partner?

 

Did the marriage grow unhappy first and then they distanced themselves from their partner?

[Spark1111]

Define happy marriage.

 

If someone feels the need to distance themselves, how is that "happy"? I'd say it's almost a definition of being unhappy, is it not?

 

Also, people can grow unhappy for many, many reasons.....

 

How easy is it to blame your primary relationship? Your spouse?

 

Pretty easy. Much easier than trying to fix it.

[112233]

Did the marriage grow unhappy first and then they distanced themselves from their partner?

 

I'd say if the marriage was good, the unhappy party would go closer to seek comfort. There might be some outside event that provides the push but the marriage was probably already in poor repair.

[NoIDidn't]

I'd say if the marriage was good, the unhappy party would go closer to seek comfort. There might be some outside event that provides the push but the marriage was probably already in poor repair.

 

I can understand why people come to this faulty conclusion, but its not supported by facts - only opinions. And usually opinions by the uninitiated (not calling you that, of course).

 

The facts on this support an unhappy person pulling away from everything first. They do so because they want to control the issue before it does damage, but the puling away does the damage for them. And often it has nothing to do with their marriage or their other intimate relationships. A depressed person often loses pleasure in things they used to enjoy first, not they stop enjoying it and that makes them depressed in most cases.

 

In premarital counseling, my H and I were told that some of the biggest problems we would face would often come from outside of our relationship. Things that we would have to react to, couldn't control directly.

 

A family member's death is not an event that we can control. And it is one of the number items on the list of potential "causes" of an affair. In fact, a death in the family often precedes many a divorce (without infidelity featured) as well. Take a look at happy couples that were starting a family, but the pregnancy went poorly and they had a tragic outcome. These couples suffer divorce and infidelity at higher rates than couples that haven't suffered them. And they were indeed happy. The situation caused them unhappiness, not their marriage.

 

My point? Personal unhappiness does not cause us to draw closer to the ones we love. Our natural response is to close ourselves off, not wanting to burden the ones we love with our unhappiness if we can avoid it. The problem is often that we can't control it and still look for another outlet. For some, the outlet takes the form of the spouse, but is not the spouse. An emotional connect is forged quickly, if one wasn't already there (in the case of a family friend, neighbor, old girlfriend). And an affair is started.

 

Marital problems will result, but they don't have to be present when dealing with someone already in heightened emotional distress - including those in happy marriages.

 

I won't go as far as to say that there is no dysfunction in some marriages as I just don't believe that. Everyone deals with some dysfunction on some level. Its the human condition in general.

[112233]

I can understand why people come to this faulty conclusion, but its not supported by facts - only opinions. And usually opinions by the uninitiated .....

 

 

A depressed person often loses pleasure in things they used to enjoy first, not they stop enjoying it and that makes them depressed in most cases.

 

 

I'm definitely initiated, sad to relate. I wouldn't want to confuse being unhappy with depression though, they're not really the same.

[Spark1111]

I can understand why people come to this faulty conclusion, but its not supported by facts - only opinions. And usually opinions by the uninitiated (not calling you that, of course).

 

The facts on this support an unhappy person pulling away from everything first. They do so because they want to control the issue before it does damage, but the puling away does the damage for them. And often it has nothing to do with their marriage or their other intimate relationships. A depressed person often loses pleasure in things they used to enjoy first, not they stop enjoying it and that makes them depressed in most cases.

 

In premarital counseling, my H and I were told that some of the biggest problems we would face would often come from outside of our relationship. Things that we would have to react to, couldn't control directly.

 

A family member's death is not an event that we can control. And it is one of the number items on the list of potential "causes" of an affair. In fact, a death in the family often precedes many a divorce (without infidelity featured) as well. Take a look at happy couples that were starting a family, but the pregnancy went poorly and they had a tragic outcome. These couples suffer divorce and infidelity at higher rates than couples that haven't suffered them. And they were indeed happy. The situation caused them unhappiness, not their marriage.

 

My point? Personal unhappiness does not cause us to draw closer to the ones we love. Our natural response is to close ourselves off, not wanting to burden the ones we love with our unhappiness if we can avoid it. The problem is often that we can't control it and still look for another outlet. For some, the outlet takes the form of the spouse, but is not the spouse. An emotional connect is forged quickly, if one wasn't already there (in the case of a family friend, neighbor, old girlfriend). And an affair is started.

 

Marital problems will result, but they don't have to be present when dealing with someone already in heightened emotional distress - including those in happy marriages.

 

I won't go as far as to say that there is no dysfunction in some marriages as I just don't believe that. Everyone deals with some dysfunction on some level. Its the human condition in general.

 

This is a really great description of the depressive process NID! Thanks for posting it.

 

I remember looking at him across the living room and wondering when he became a stranger to himself and to us. He could have been on the moon.

 

And I remember asking repeatedly, what's wrong?

 

The response was always, "nothing." I begged him to go to counseling alone, together.... no, he would not.

 

This was months before he would crash into his AP.

 

And I remember him growing angrier and angrier with us? Himself? His life? Me? And not knowing how to fix this....how to make this right or better.

[seren]

This is a really great description of the depressive process NID! Thanks for posting it.

 

I remember looking at him across the living room and wondering when he became a stranger to himself and to us. He could have been on the moon.

 

And I remember asking repeatedly, what's wrong?

 

The response was always, "nothing." I begged him to go to counseling alone, together.... no, he would not.

 

This was months before he would crash into his AP.

 

And I remember him growing angrier and angrier with us? Himself? His life? Me? And not knowing how to fix this....how to make this right or better.

 

 

Oh I so agree with all this, and with NID's description. My H says he felt toxic and that he didn't feel good enough for me and that the A and OW just increased his feelings of loathing toward himself, which is what he felt he deserved. I too remember asking, what's wrong, can I help, talk to me? over and over, only to be told there was nothing wrong. I thought I was going crazy!!

 

The factors that all piled upon each other, that contributed to my H losing the plot are many and complex, but it helped me to better understand how he could do something so, so out of character for him. It doesn't excuse his behaviour, but it helps me to understand it better.

 

The details of the A and the way it was conducted and how he conducted himself bear absolutely no realtion to what I would see as a healthy realtionship, nor do I recognise my husband as that man - personally, if I had been OW I would have run as fast as I could from him.

 

Thank God all that is over, he is due back from Afghan in about three weeks and his mindset is so very different from the Iraq det that pushed him over the edge. I have a very different husband and we have a very different marriage now. Communication, or the lack of, is one biggie pre A, if only more people talked about problems before looking for solutions elsewhere.

 

Re: the OP, stereotypes all help the parties in A's to justify their actions. The OW thought I was stopping my H from contacting her, I was making him end it, that we hadn't had sex, weren't intimate. He thought he wasn't goofd enough for me, that I didn't love him. None of which were true. The I know him better than you spiel was sad really, I thought, really? I have known him for 26 years and I never saw it coming, how can you know him better when I don't even recognise the man you see.

 

In fact, she probably did know Mr Dysfunctional better than I. He would've been out the door, no way would I have stood for being treated the way he treated her - and yes, I take him to task over things. I may be a BS, but I sure as hell am not bitter, frigid, obese, after his money nor do I look like a horse's a***. We didn't and don't have a perfect marriage, does anyone? The big difference is that I don't run away from my problems, but face them head on, regardless. I think I probably made it too easy as in I took care of everything so H had less worry. Oh how things have changed!!

 

I also don't stereotype all OW or OM or WS, we are all just people trying to make the best of it. I couldn't be an OW simply because I am a loyal soul and the thought of sharing the person I love with another just couldn't compute. Nor could I be the person who enabled the hurt of another. Perhaps the stereotype I fit is that of a woman married to the same man for over a quarter of a century believing the man when he says he loves me, enjoying the laughter, love and lust in our relationship and not looking for any others or thinking there could be others for him. Complacency? I took it more as love and trust. I also thought we were going through a glitch, but that we would come out the other side - never, ever did I think it could be an OW. But it was. I am now a stereotypically happily reconciled woman, who has established boundaries and who would never, ever go back a second time. But, he is back to the man I always knew him to be, so I don't anticipate that - however, I no longer think that it might never happen, I just know and so does he, that there is so much to lose.

[Distant78]

Yet another little barb thrown out with the sole intention of hurting people. I'm sure it'd go down well if the OW started making comments that BS weren't important.

 

Umm, every OW on LS says that the BS aren't important.

 

And if anyone has to question what secret was saying then they're not really reading and listening to all sides on this board. Note the word 'listening'. Listen, don't hear and see what YOU want to see and hear because that's the first step to stereotyping. Just because YOU don't like what someone else has for a R and it doesn't match with yours doesn't make it nonexistent-like fooled once has implied.

 

All sides or no sides, there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to start and participate in an affair. It has nothing to do with stereotyping.

 

I couldn't have reconciled with my H after he had an A but it doesn't mean I don't think it couldn't happen for others.

 

:confused:

[donnamaybe]

I feel that if someone cheats there is some serious dysfunction within the M. I

Oh, sure. It can NEVER be because the WS is just an overgrown child with an overdeveloped sense of self importance.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm definitely initiated, sad to relate. I wouldn't want to confuse being unhappy with depression though, they're not really the same.

 

They may not be the same, but they are certainly related. Unhappy people do not socialize or seek out others. Depressed people the same.

 

And be unhappy long enough and you'll likely end up depressed.

 

Its easy to split hairs here (as in on LS) though.

[turnstone]

I haven't got a clue where you picked up I thought you said my view wasn't welcome.

 

The following came across as defensive and led me to believe you thought your view wasn't welcome. I didn't say that you thought I had written your view wasn't welcome, btw.

 

I understood it perfectly. I responded to how I read it. I give no impression other than my opinion of what is written and my years of seeing others and my experience as a BS who thought at the time there was no dysfunction in my M.

 

I gave my viewpoint just as everyone else does[/quote

____________________________

 

Back on topic:

 

Well it's as sensible as someone telling every OW that every MM lies to every OW because they KNOW that every MM lies to every OW and there are no exceptions. We all know there are exceptions to everything in life and I'd agree there is a small minority of MM who don't lie just as there are a small minority of Ms that end in As that are not dysfunctional. I still believe that the vast majority are and we don't like to admit or accept it. Like I said-me included.

 

I think you're missing the point here. I was referring to your stipulation that Sparks marriage must have been dysfunctional, which flied in the face of evidence. But as you have altered your stance from 'all' to 'vast majority', the point is no longer valid. Thank you.

[thomasb]

 

I gave my viewpoint just as everyone else does. I feel that if someone cheats there is some serious dysfunction within the M. I don't disagree with the vast majority of it coming from the WS but I just can't see where the M isn't dysfunctional.

 

.

 

 

I have myself stated... repeatedly... there was no dysfunction within my marriage. Rather it was within myself. And the man who had the affair was so out of character to who I really am. It went against every moral and ethical value in me. My wife had nothing to do with that behavior, rather she was a symbol of goodness and decency. The affair was a symbol of immorality and deceit.

[anne1707]

I too object to the implication that my marriage was dysfunctional. There were problems in the marriage and in how we dealt with them (especially me) but it was certainly not dysfunctional and to imply such would be disrespectful to my husband.

 

I think it may be more fair to say that some marriages are dysfunctional, not most. Otherwise it just sounds to me as if the "dysfunctional marriage" is being used to justify an affair, that the marriage was so unhealthy that having an affair was acceptable and reasonable under the circumstances.

[Spark1111]

I too object to the implication that my marriage was dysfunctional. There were problems in the marriage and in how we dealt with them (especially me) but it was certainly not dysfunctional and to imply such would be disrespectful to my husband.

 

I think it may be more fair to say that some marriages are dysfunctional, not most. Otherwise it just sounds to me as if the "dysfunctional marriage" is being used to justify an affair, that the marriage was so unhealthy that having an affair was acceptable and reasonable under the circumstances.

 

Thanks for this anne!

 

Two people are in the same marriage. If it was sooooo dysfunctional, why isn't the BS out having affairs? Filing for separation or divorce? Dating? Demanding counseling?

 

If it is truly a sexless, cold unemotional relationship, as is so often portrayed to the AP, doesn't it make sense that two people would dissolve this unholy union as quick as possible?

[September]

Thanks for this anne!

 

Two people are in the same marriage. If it was sooooo dysfunctional, why isn't the BS out having affairs? Filing for separation or divorce? Dating? Demanding counseling?

 

If it is truly a sexless, cold unemotional relationship, as is so often portrayed to the AP, doesn't it make sense that two people would dissolve this unholy union as quick as possible?

 

I can't say if dysfunctional is the right word, but I get why it is being used. In my M, we were both not very happy. Yes, we a great sex life (until I met xMM) but that's all there was. We had grown apart and had very little in common. He spoke to me like crap all the time and appeared to have very little respect for me. The one person that made his life so very comfortable, kept a spotless house, cooked gourmet meals, worked and was fun to be around. Yet it was never enough, nothing was ever enough. I so vividly remember saying to him that one day, someone would come along and treat me the way I deserve to be treated. He laughed and laughed at that statement.

 

Some, and I mean some people, just don't have the b**ls to make a move from the marriage, they stay out of comfort and security. This was a classic example for me. I just couldn't get off my backside and do it. I have seen many stories where couples in their old age had wished they had the nerve to leave their unhappy marriages but instead stayed. Fear of the unknown? Fear of being alone? Fear of change? Financial fears of how they are going to survive especially if they have to raise children as a single parent? Perhaps if they had met someone, someone that made them feel alive again, they too may have gone down that road. You can never say never.

 

For some people, they do come across someone in their life that makes them feel alive and happy again and it's INCREDIBLY hard to deny those feelings and just like East's post, you can see how it happens. I know that it is completely wrong but it happens and the magnetic force is uncontrollable. Two years prior, when I first kissed xMM and felt terrible guilt, I told my xH and he laughed, didn't appear to care less! In a way, that laugh gave me the green light to go ahead. Why not? He didn't seem to care or want to fight for the relationship.

 

After D-Day, my xH decides that he does love me and wants to change his ways. Unfortunately, it was too little too late. A few years prior, we had tried MC but he just wasn't interested. The MC told him that he was so inflexible. I know he will never change, this is why I have no interest in reconciling the M.

 

So, I suppose what I am saying is, maybe one party in the marriage is very unhappy but can't and won't voice it to their partner out of fear. They like me, don't have the b**ls to move away from the relationship first. Change can be a very scary thing...

Edited December 29, 2010 by September