on being "saved" ...

[quankanne]

What exactly does it mean when someone (usually someone from a Protestant religion trying to impress Christianity on a complete stranger) asks, "Have you been saved?"

 

Are they looking for as simple "yes" or "no" answer, or do they expect a good Catholic girl not very versed in the Bible -- like me -- to spout Scripture to "prove" my belief?

 

While I don't mind sharing the Good News, I feel it's something very, very personal, so I try to be careful with what I say and how I present it. I don't enjoy being hit over the head with a Bible so I figure neither do other folks. On the other hand, it's very frustrating to not get my point across to another Christian who seems to be talking a foreign language!

 

Like last night, for example. While I was doing laundry at a local laundromat, a woman from one of the biggest Baptist churches in town asked if I'd participate in a survey. I thought it had some interesting questions and at one point, we got into a conversation about the Gibson movie about Christ's passion. Then she asked me what I thought Jesus's role was all about.

 

Love, I answered.

 

She didn't seem too happy about that -- I think she wanted something more along the lines of his sacrifice, how he provided salvation, etc. I tried explaining that because he loved so completely, he was able to shake up the society of which he was a part and he was able to give something that no one else was willing to give. And that he reached out to the marginalized people in society, folks that others avoided, simply because he preached a Gospel of love .... but I don't think she got what I was trying to say, that his love encompassed everything.

 

Comments? suggestions on how to "hold my own"?

 

quank

[reasontosigh]

...She didn't seem too happy about that -- I think she wanted something more along the lines of his sacrifice, how he provided salvation, etc. ...

 

That would be my guess. Then once you gave that answer, she was going to try to win you as the latest convert to their flock.

 

Sounds to me like you held your own just fine there.

[InmannRoshi]

When people ask me if I've been saved, I tell them that God has forgiven me for the multiple murders I've committed and gotten away with.

 

 

Then I ask for a hug.

[meanon]

LOL

 

I can't recall being asked if I've been saved but will remember your answer Inmann, should the occasion ever arise.

 

I have been asked if I am "Born again" but have no idea what it meant

[sonofhud]

Oh go ahead......pick on the baptists

 

It could be that denomination has nothing to do with her understanding. Maybe she just doesn't know what she believes or hasn't really thought about it, but she is trying to be a good Christian(baptist) woman because she thinks that is what she is supposed to do. God will give her the words she needs to say when the time comes.

 

I would agree with you about what Jesus was/is about though. And just because I am baptist and have a stereotype to live up to....

 

 

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son......

 

It is very hard to carry on a constructive coversation with an opposing denomination, such as batholic vs. baptist. My ex was a catholic and we always liked to pick on each other because of some of the rituals or beliefs of our churches. I know many, many baptists who are very closed minded so it would be hard for you to ask them these kinds of questions. I don't agree with everything the baptist church teachs, but I don't agree enough with any of the other options.

 

I have never been asked by a complete stranger "Have you been saved?". I am only 20...maybe this happens later on. I don't think most people have the nerve to do this. How many times has this happened to you?

 

To me being saved means just what romans 10:9-10 state:

 

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

That is pretty simple to understand, IMO. That is where the main disagreement between protestants and catholics arise. The gift of eternal life is that easy to receive, if you are willing to receive it.

[morrigan]

If I'm interested in a certain church, I will attend one of their services. I've done this twice and met a lot of nice people, no one tried to "save me", thank God!!

 

I am personally uncomfortable trying to force my religious ideas on anyone. Also, how can I assume a total stranger is not fully content with their religious beliefs? I think the person trying to convert you is well meaning, but they have the idea that their certain religion/church is the best path to God.

[moimeme]

To me being saved means just what romans 10:9-10 state:

 

 

quote:That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

 

Yeah. See, that was written by St. Paul. Those aren't the words of Jesus. St. Paul - the guy who also said that women shouldn't teach, braid their hair, or wear gold. I bet nobody who quotes his words above avoids any of those things.

 

People pick and choose from the Bible to support the stuff they want to promote. They conveniently ignore the rest.

 

I've said it before and I'll continue to say this; to abuse and bastardize the Bible that way is an abomination to me, particularly when it is abused to turn against others and condemn others.

[sonofhud]

Where do you think Paul got this idea of salvation? Jesus! Ever heard of the Great Commission?

 

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

These are red words, the words of Jesus.

 

I find it kind of ironic that you point out that I am picking and choosing to prove my point, yet you turn around and use the women teaching/braiding hair/wearing gold argument to prove yours.

[ladyangel]

Going back to Quankanne's original question...How DO you prove to another that you're a Christian, that you believe, that you've been saved, born again...or whatever language they want to use? I've had this ongoing issue with my sister. She was "saved" several years ago after she found out her husband was cheating on her, got to a very low point in her life, and started attending Christian counseling at the suggestion of her pastor at her church. She says it was a life-changing experience. She and her husband got back together and both became very involved with their church.

 

She goes to what is called a non-denominational church with the word "Community" in the title. She has said some things to me that have really bothered me, which I take as insinuations that she doesn't think I'm proving myself in the right way for God. For instance, she said to me recently when I said I got the feeling she doubted that I was a believer, she said, "Well, I would just like to know that when I get to heaven you will be there." Hmm. Why wouldn't I be?

 

She has said that she thinks the reason we're not as close as we used to be is that we don't have as much in common; i.e., she goes to church every Sunday and is very involved in her church and I'm not. I would go to her church, but they are an hour and a half away from us. Besides, I'm not even sure that would be the right church for me. Like someone else said, you have to attend a church and find one that feels right for you.

 

I was baptized at the age of 12, and even though I don't attend church regularly, I'm a very strong believer and try to live my life in a way that I can be proud of. I've told her that it is a personal thing between God and myself, and that is what I believe. But I would be curious to hear how others would handle this situation.

[dyermaker]

Please note that Paul is a human, and put his own human spin on how HE chose to spread Christianity to the early unconverted. Paul's the same guy who oversaw the killing of Saint Steven, his writings are not part of the Gospel.

 

Anyway, when people ask me to read their literature on their insert-protestant-sect-here, I oblige under the condition that they pray the rosary with me for a while. Of course, they run like hell away from my Mary-worshipping

[dyermaker]

I remember reading an example:

 

http://www.catholicwitness.com/cwlibrary/tracts/Papacy/petertherock.htm

[ladyangel]

Originally posted by dyermaker

I remember reading an example:

 

http://www.catholicwitness.com/cwlibrary/tracts/Papacy/petertherock.htm

I'm having a hard time following this thread. Simply put, does this mean if I'm not a Catholic I'm basically...um...screwed?

[moimeme]

I don't recall the passage being "thou are Peter and upon this Rock I shall build my Church and the only way you can possibly get to Heaven no matter where you live is to follow the exact dictates of this Church word for word even though subsequent humans may totally screw up the plan I have"

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by ladyangel

I'm having a hard time following this thread. Simply put, does this mean if I'm not a Catholic I'm basically...um...screwed?

This thread?

 

No, this thread is more like if you're not a fundamentalist Christian, you're screwed. "Being saved" is a term that comes with the belief that it's through faith alone that we acheive salvation--as in "Are you saved yet?", like, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior, thus gauranteeing you a spot in heaven?", while the Catholic Church disagrees with this protestant idea, outlined in their decision at the Council of Trent in like 1550, believing that it's not just through faith alone, but through good works as well.

 

As for the link I posted, it's just a nice story about how a Catholic should handle those people who come to their doors, by educating themselves, rather than arguing from the heart.

[Tony T]

I think to be saved and to enter heaven you either must have returned all your books to the library or paid the late fines.

 

I never did understand this concept of being "saved." We are all born into this world and we do our best to get through it. I'm not so sure that there is a requirement that everyone have read a certain religious book or gave their endorsement to a particular biblical figure in order to go on to some sort of reward.

 

I never have understood the concept of going on to some sort of reward for having spent some time here on earth. I always thought the earth had some pretty good rewards. It doesn't make since that our creator would audition His creatures here just to see if they would fit in in the afterlife.

 

Since we have a free will given to us by our creator, it seems rather incongruous that if we exercised that free will to believe other than what our creator directed us to that we would be penalized or barred from any attendant aferlife.

 

There are a lot of extremely kind and worthy people who don't believe certain religious traditions who, in my opinion, would make excellent residents of heaven should there be a place.

 

The Bible I read says "The kingdom of heaven is with you." If that be the case, we are already there if we look into ourselves, especially since the Bible also says we are made in the likeness of God.

 

I do respect those who want to proudly announce they are "saved," even if some don't understand what it means.

[RainbowLove]

I feel/think there are too many 'fanaticals' who claim to know "Jesus" yet their actions betray their supposed knowledge. I don't feel it's about blindingly following his word, it's about knowing his ways in ur heart...... I would read "have you been saved?' as being 'have u saved ur self?'... How we treat each other, how those that betray us should not be judged, actually how judgement on others should just be completely negated in every instance... I maynot know much on religions in depth, but when Jesus was placed on the cross and with his freewill he still 'chose' to love his betrayers, that's truly inspiring!

 

Jesus to me is an awesome representative of what we could all be... that's all... But there should be no pressure placed on those whom may not see this or be 're-born'... Actually I don't understand what they mean in saying "Jesus saved us" - could someone please explain this to me if u have time? The way I see it, we are far from being saved as a ppl at this point...

 

Angel, your sister may have good intention... Sometimes tho, because we're all students of life, we fail to see how our 'pressure' on others may come from a loving place, but it is not a 'necessary' place in our own personal growth... I agree with you that it's a personal relationship between u and ur god and should not be directed by another, no matter their intention - their fear that you will not be 'saved' is all that is - just 'fear'. There is only truly Love and Fear. Fear is the work of the DEVIL!

[ladyangel]

Originally posted by dyermaker

...the Catholic Church disagrees with this protestant idea, outlined in their decision at the Council of Trent in like 1550, believing that it's not just through faith alone, but through good works as well.

Can you explain? I'm truly interested.

[End of my rope]

My best friend is Catholic. I myself am a United Baptist. When we were in high school we really tried to understand one another's religion. I attended Catholic services with her as a guest and she came to church with me. We did this several times. We both lived in a rural area in West Virginia and the number of Protestants well outnumbered the number of Catholics. Like 300 to 1. Literally. She and her sister's were the only Catholics in our high school. I'll never forget one conversation she had in our sophomore year with another girl. That girl was so ignorant of other religions it was pathetic. She asked FRIEND where she went to church and when FRIEND told her she then said, "Oh, so you're not a Christian."

 

Whenever someone asks my friend if she's been saved or born again, she looks at them, smiles, and says "I'm a Christian." That's how she avoids getting into discussions with Bible beaters. It always works for her, and it isn't a lie, just not exactly what they asked her!

[sonofhud2]

We are saved by grace. Protestants believe once you are "saved", there is nothing you can do to change that fact. Once a believer, always a believer kinda mentality. There is a specific time in you life when you become saved and this is realized. We don't believe that you are required to do good works, but that if you are truely a believer you will desire to do good works because the holy spirit lives within you. The works themselves are not the cause for our salvation.

 

Catholics believe we are saved by grace alone as well. Catholics also believe faith is an important part of their salvation; however, they do not come to realize that faith at a specific point in time like protestants, but throughtout their lives until death. They believe "faith without works is dead" so doing good works are required for Catholic salvation.

[quankanne]

thanks for not laughing off my question, but giving input instead. There is a lot of stuff here to "chew over"!

 

sonofhud, I hope you never have to encounter a conversation where someone asks you if you are "saved." At best, it's an uncomfortable one because even though YOU know your faith and GOD knows your faith, explaining to someone who has no ideer what depth your faith is, is frustrating at best. Maybe it's all just a matter of semantics, this question of salvation, and maybe it only seems like it's the Baptists who keep bugging people about it -- where I grew up, it was understood that you believed in Christ's salvation, but then again, I grew up in a staunch Catholic area of the state!

 

My take on it: If Jesus made the sacrifice that he did some 2000 years ago, we're all saved, whether we accept the fact or not. He didn't pick and chose who would be the recipient; it's all of humanity. So to be asked, 'are you saved' flies in the face of Christ's actions if you profess to be a believer. I think asking someone "do you believe (in God, in Jesus, in the Holy Spirit)?" is a much clearer question where the respondent wouldn't feel so damned confused when he/she answered.

 

Dyer had a good idea, posting that apologetics link, and it's one worth further exploring for those like me, who know their faith personally, but have trouble explaining it ...

 

To me being saved means just what Romans 10:9-10 states …

 

Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in the resurrection is a large part of it; somewhere, repentence (turning away from sin to embrace the Gospel) also plays a large part of it, in my thinking. In fact, the lady at the laundromat quoted this particular Scripture to me, but all I could think of was "well, what about those people who say it, but don't live like they mean it?"

 

Somewhere in the dusty archives is a post I'd written about a relative who "found Jesus" in the parking lot of the local Dairy Queen. Yeah, I joked about it, because it sounded so "redneck," but in honesty it's a kind of a sad profession to me, because he's still the same selfish person he was before being "saved." He doesn't seem interested in living a life that's different from his own -- and it's scandalous, to say the least, because didn't Jesus also say, "not everyone who says my name will enter into Heaven"? Which, I think ties into faith in action, or the "good works" discussed here: I think a natural outpouring of the Spirit working in someone is that said person is compelled to focus more on others than on himself. I don't think Catholics find it a "requirement" for salvation, but rather a matter of putting your money where your mouth is!

 

however, (Catholics) do not come to realize that faith at a specific point in time like protestants, but throughout their lives until death

 

interesting comment there. I often wonder if certain Protestant faiths put the emphasis on man being a sinful creature and thus the need for a large, recognized "act" of salvation (baptism only when a person is ready to accept Christ), whereas Catholics bring a child into a community of believers, claiming through baptism that child for God, then marking his spiritual growth through the conferrence of the sacraments like first Communion and Confirmation? Catholic kids know and understand from the get-go that their faith is theirs, but Protestant kids -- especially Baptist ones -- seem better equipped to defend and explain their belief because they have to journey their way to the point of salvation ...

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by ladyangel

Can you explain? I'm truly interested.

It's just that it's not enough to claim Christ as your personal savior, you also have to do good things, salvation is perpetually acheived through what Catholics call "grace"--grace is acheived by USING that faith to come to a state of grace, which allows you to do good works through the power of the Holy Spirit, which IS God. Kinda difficult to explain, but it's the faith AND the good works that allows us to have the saving grace neccessary for passage into heaven.

[ladyangel]

Originally posted by dyermaker

It's just that it's not enough to claim Christ as your personal savior, you also have to do good things, salvation is perpetually acheived through what Catholics call "grace"--grace is acheived by USING that faith to come to a state of grace, which allows you to do good works through the power of the Holy Spirit, which IS God. Kinda difficult to explain, but it's the faith AND the good works that allows us to have the saving grace neccessary for passage into heaven.

Please humor my ignorance here and explain the concept of "good works." This is an interesting discussion and I appreciate your explanations.

[dyermaker]

Ugh! I had a long response typed out, hit spell check, and it froze. So pardon me if I can't spell efficacious.

 

Anyway, every soul has sanctifying grace. This is what's neccessary to go to heaven. Catholics believe that you have to be in a state of grace to attend. It exists in the entire person, the soul, will, and intellect--so long as you cooperate with it.

 

I believe that God works through people, rather than appearing as a deep voice and bright light. When people do "good works", they are responding to the grace in their soul, in the form of actual grace. I've never had a prayer that wasn't answered, God provides for me what I need. Without prayer and its effects on me, I don't see how I could maintain my faith. My prayers are answered by people. I have, no doubt, answered the prayers of others. I'm not sure if you've felt the Lord working through you, but I have, and when you feel God's call and answer it, that is a "Good Work"

 

Most would consider Good Works to be things like helping out at a soup kitchen or donating to charity--these are, but you could also be complimenting someone who needed that compliment in order to boost their self-esteem enough to not kill themselves as they had intended to do when they got home that night. It's part of God's plan, to endow his people with this actual grace, in order to answer their petitions. God works through people, which is why Catholics believe it's not enough to be "saved" once, as in accept Jesus and kaput that's it, instead, it's a perpetual salvation, one in which you respond to God's call in order to maintain Grace, while helping the community of the faithful--and no, you don't need to be a Catholic for one to answer your prayers, God watches over all of his children, even the most nietzschesque.

 

Sanctifying Grace is different than actual grace, because sanctifying grace is permanant. Think of actual grace as Holy Adrenaline, it's a temporary spiritual rush of initiative. When we deny actual grace, it is called sufficient grace, beacuse God provides everyone with enough grace (read: he actually wants you in heaven with him). When we accept these adrenaline boosts, it's called efficacious grace, because it accomplishes God's will, and strengthens your Sanctifying grace.

 

I do my best to explain it, but it comes out sounding like a holy video game. The point is that Jesus sought to bring the Kingdom of God to Earth. And indeed, if everyone was like Jesus, it would be. It's the Grace in our entire person that brings us to heaven, and we can deny that, by following a path of sin, or we can accept that, and work to answer prayers while having our prayers answered. "The lord works in mysterious ways" is usually used as a perjorative commentary on the fact that Christians don't have all the answers. But I see it as a beautiful thing, one which keeps the world functioning, because God is working through people who don't even know it, but work cannot be acheived without actually working for it--hence the concept of good works, and it's neccessary effect on our pursuit of maintaining sanctifying grace.

[sonofhud2]

Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in the resurrection is a large part of it; somewhere, repentence (turning away from sin to embrace the Gospel) also plays a large part of it, in my thinking. In fact, the lady at the laundromat quoted this particular Scripture to me, but all I could think of was "well, what about those people who say it, but don't live like they mean it?"

 

There are a whole set of scriptures that the Baptist church teaches as the "Roman Road to salvation"....she probably quoted all of those to you, or at least tried to. That is what she has been taught to do. I've been waiting a while to go talk to my pastor because I've been having deep thoughts about all this and I'm trying to collect some questions I can have answered before I just show up there.....one of them is, how can you reach out to people and quote these scriptures if they don't even believe in the Bible. If they say things like "its a good book, but its fiction". So I will stop posting scripture until I have an answer.

 

There is no way for us to know those who truely believe, only God knows. That is why the Baptist church preaches "you can't just be good to get to heaven". Being good is a good thing....but it's not enough. I think if you confess and truely believe, you will want to do good works out of the goodness of your heart, which is the Holy Spirit living within you, and not just because you want to get to heaven. So I can almost agree with the Catholic church in my own views that "good works" are necessary, but that no amount of "good works" are enough to earn the grace of God which we do not deserve.

 

I also believe when our judgement comes we will be held accountable for every action we've made, so it would be nice to have some good stuff to say about myself to try to prove my love for others

 

and maybe it only seems like it's the Baptists who keep bugging people about it

 

I guess I should be proud our guys are at least getting their message out.

 

Yeah, I joked about it, because it sounded so "redneck," but in honesty it's a kind of a sad profession to me, because he's still the same selfish person he was before being "saved." He doesn't seem interested in living a life that's different from his own -- and it's scandalous, to say the least, because didn't Jesus also say, "not everyone who says my name will enter into Heaven"?

 

Well, I'm sorry to say there are many Baptists out there similar to this guy and I will be the first to admit that. I've been this guy at some points. I think we all have though. See we believe in a "profession of faith"....telling everyone about it. That is why we walk down that notorious aisle. Its a really hard thing to do....harder than you think it is. I guess most people think after one person is saved, its supposed to be some kind of magical change in that person, but you have to remember the devil will be working his hardest at this point to try to make that person beliefs waiver and he will be tempted far more than he has before.

 

But once again, we can not judge this man. Because the first things we point out wrong in his life are usually things that are wrong in ours. Maybe he doesn't truely believe and maybe he just wanted to make a scene. Thats not for us to decide though.

 

It's not so easy to point out a Catholic and say they are living a scandalous life because there is no one point in time in which they are supposed to be dramatically changed and turn from sin.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud2

no amount of "good works" is enough to earn the grace of God which we do not deserve.

If you belive in predestination, why bother converting those who are already damned to hell? I have trouble believing that God doesn't provide sufficient grace for his people.