on being "saved" ...

[quankanne]

I agree with that definition, but I never really understood or researched why Catholics are baptized as babies

 

according to one of the priests who teaches the RCIA class (made up primarily of people who are interested in converting to Catholicism), we baptize our babies for several different reasons: the primary reason is to wash away the stain of original sin from that child's soul. Another reason for infant baptism is so that the community can welcome it's newest member into the Body of Christ. There are a couple more, but those two are the ones that stuck in my head from that discussion.

 

hmmmm ... we prepare our kids at ages 6-7 for their first Communion, when they receive the Body and the Blood for the first time; at age 16 we confirm them. I wonder if there isn't a parallel between adult baptism in Protestant worship and confirmation for Catholics? When a Catholic youth is confirmed, he's publicly confirming his faith, much like the non-Catholic Christians do when they are baptized as adults ...

[moimeme]

Plainly put, Baptism wipes out Original Sin and allows the new person to begin from a tabla rasa. That sort of keeps them in grace until they are able to participate in the Sacraments themselves, culminating in Confirmation.

 

Quank, we're doing Confirmation at 16 now?

[quankanne]

they are in North and East Texas dioceses, so I'm guessing the trend across the country is to move it up to age 16. Why, I'm not exactly sure, but a lot of the religious ed directors here have made the comment that you lose kids from the catechism program if you confirm them when they're in junior high. ... I dunno -- I had mine when I was 13 and stayed active, but then again, what else *is* there to do in a small town?

 

I've also noticed that there is a two-year preparation for these kids; my last two godchildren began the program their freshman year in high school (age 15) and were confirmed the following school year, when they were 16.

 

however, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to catch the kids in that age range than to give ALL THREE sacraments of initiation (baptism, 1st Communion, confirmation) when they're baptized as infants!!! Apparently, that's the case with a good number of the immigrants from Mexico, they get all three as babies ...

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud2

I agree with that definition, but I never really understood or researched why Catholics are baptized as babies.

Baptism frees us from original sin, connecting us with sanctifying grace. It's in the interest of the child to bring him to that place as soon as possible.

As a baptist, I always thought of baptism as a symbolic ritual, being baptized not for a literal cleansing, but an act to profess your new life publically in the begining stages of your journey to be more like Christ.

We have a sacrament for exactly what you described, it's called Confirmation. When Catholic babies are baptized, the choice is made by their parents. When you are confirmed, it's a choice YOU personally make.

Originally posted by moimeme

Quank, we're doing Confirmation at 16 now?

I was confirmed at thirteen.

Originally posted by quankanne

however, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to catch the kids in that age range than to give ALL THREE sacraments of initiation (baptism, 1st Communion, confirmation) when they're baptized as infants!!! Apparently, that's the case with a good number of the immigrants from Mexico, they get all three as babies ...

This was how it was done in the early church, like shortly after the Pauline Ministry. Because such sacraments could only be done under the authority of a Bishop, they were given all three after their catechumenate, because the bishops didn't have cars lol.

[yllany]

Originally posted by sonofhud

Where do you think Paul got this idea of salvation? Jesus! Ever heard of the Great Commission?

 

Mark 16:16

 

These are red words, the words of Jesus.

 

Respectfully disagree. [color=red] THOSE are the words of MARK[/color]. As he might have remembered them, when he finally got down to write them.

 

Given that humans tend to change (even w/o spin intention) what they have heard just a week, or a month, or a year ago, and that most modern Biblical scholars say that the Gospels were written decades after Jesus was executed, then it really all comes down to [color=red]your own personal belief [/color] in that the Gospels (in whichever form you yourself choose, whoever really wrote them) are the word of God

[sw]

I believe I can help sonofhud make his point concerning the whole predestination thing. God gave us freewill because of his love for us, yet there is a penality for denying God his will, However, God already knows where everyone is going to end up. God allowed man to fall out of grace because this was a greater part of his overall plan (which we could never phathom). Even before the earth was formed, he knew who would be returning, he just wants to see who believes in what he said (this is the works he was talking about) and who dosen't (this is why God does not intervene in human affairs). To force someone to believe would be of a hateful, sinful nature, violating his own rules would make God a liar. Christ said "he who does not profess my name in front of others I will not profess his name to the father" So there is a demand from God to preach to others. If we don't, there will be reprecussions. The reason why I don't accept catholic teachings is because I feel that praying to anyone but God is, in my opinion, worshiping a false diety. Afterall, satin has decieved many people through the centurys to worship graven images (by using the false teachings of false religions), whether they're the virgin Mary, or the pope it's all the same. If we pray to anyone other than God, or jesus( who was not a man but the physical incarnation of the spiritual God ) then we are actually praying to demonic spirits. And this violates the most important commandment "Thou shalt not worship any other gods".

[sweetbilly]

I believe I can help sonofhud make his point concerning the whole predestination thing. God gave us freewill because of his love for us, yet there is a penality for denying God his will, However, God already knows where everyone is going to end up. God allowed man to fall out of grace because this was a greater part of his overall plan (which we could never phathom). Even before the earth was formed, he knew who would be returning, he just wants to see who believes in what he said (this is the works he was talking about) and who dosen't (this is why God does not intervene in human affairs). To force someone to believe would be of a hateful, sinful nature, violating his own rules would make God a liar. Christ said "he who does not profess my name in front of others I will not profess his name to the father" So there is a demand from God to preach to others. If we don't, there will be reprecussions. The reason why I don't accept catholic teachings is because I feel that praying to anyone but God is, in my opinion, worshiping a false diety. Afterall, satin has decieved many people through the centurys to worship graven images (by using the false teachings of false religions), whether they're the virgin Mary, or the pope it's all the same. If we pray to anyone other than God, or jesus( who was not a man but the physical incarnation of the spiritual God ) then we are actually praying to demonic spirits. And this violates the most important commandment "Thou shalt not worship any other gods".

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by quankanne

What exactly does it mean when someone (usually someone from a Protestant religion trying to impress Christianity on a complete stranger) asks, "Have you been saved?"

 

Are they looking for as simple "yes" or "no" answer, or do they expect a good Catholic girl not very versed in the Bible -- like me -- to spout Scripture to "prove" my belief?

 

I guess it depends on why they chose to ask a stranger. If they are on a mission to find people or if by chance they are just chatting. If they are on a mission it might be that they are looking for people to convert (maybe they have a quota) or maybe they are counting how many believe like they do. I'm pretty cynical about that. I had someone come up to me at a carnival and ask me if I had been saved. I just looked at them and said "saved from what?" Oh how I wish I'd kept my mouth shut! That broad followed me all over the place preaching at me! I guess she saw me as a challenge and she wasn't going to give up!

 

 

While I don't mind sharing the Good News, I feel it's something very, very personal, so I try to be careful with what I say and how I present it. I don't enjoy being hit over the head with a Bible so I figure neither do other folks. On the other hand, it's very frustrating to not get my point across to another Christian who seems to be talking a foreign language!

 

I agree that it is very personal.

 

Like last night, for example. While I was doing laundry at a local laundromat, a woman from one of the biggest Baptist churches in town asked if I'd participate in a survey. I thought it had some interesting questions and at one point, we got into a conversation about the Gibson movie about Christ's passion. Then she asked me what I thought Jesus's role was all about.

 

Love, I answered.

 

She didn't seem too happy about that -- I think she wanted something more along the lines of his sacrifice, how he provided salvation, etc. I tried explaining that because he loved so completely, he was able to shake up the society of which he was a part and he was able to give something that no one else was willing to give. And that he reached out to the marginalized people in society, folks that others avoided, simply because he preached a Gospel of love .... but I don't think she got what I was trying to say, that his love encompassed everything.

 

I know it may be frustrating, but perhaps she was just not at the same intellectual level as you and couldn't grasp your concept. (I like your concept BTW - I didn't think of it like that at all. You gave me a new way to look at it)

Comments? suggestions on how to "hold my own"?

 

Sounds like you held your own just fine.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

Christ said "he who does not profess my name in front of others I will not profess his name to the father" So there is a demand from God to preach to others. If we don't, there will be reprecussions.

This only proves my point that many people are preaching to save themselves, not others. If you were truly concerned with spreading the word of God, you'd be more open about COMMUNICATING a message, rather than shoving it down throats.

The reason why I don't accept catholic teachings is because I feel that praying to anyone but God is, in my opinion, worshiping a false diety. Afterall, satin has decieved many people through the centurys to worship graven images (by using the false teachings of false religions), whether they're the virgin Mary, or the pope it's all the same. If we pray to anyone other than God, or jesus( who was not a man but the physical incarnation of the spiritual God ) then we are actually praying to demonic spirits. And this violates the most important commandment "Thou shalt not worship any other gods".

Catholics don't worship Mary, the Saints, or the Pope. They worship one God. You're miseducated on Catholic teachings, and it is morally wrong to propagate such lies. It doesn't surpise me that you haven't learned much about Catholic teaching, you seem only interested in scriptural references that prove points you are making.

[sonofhud]

Originally posted by yllany

Respectfully disagree. [color=red] THOSE are the words of MARK[/color]. As he might have remembered them, when he finally got down to write them.

 

Given that humans tend to change (even w/o spin intention) what they have heard just a week, or a month, or a year ago, and that most modern Biblical scholars say that the Gospels were written decades after Jesus was executed, then it really all comes down to [color=red]your own personal belief [/color] in that the Gospels (in whichever form you yourself choose, whoever really wrote them) are the word of God

 

Well, I have to disagree with your disagreement. Mark was a dicsciple of God the human, better known as Jesus. Don't you think he would have a little bit more guidance when writing verses in God's book?

 

Jesus was a human, but he managed to do some pretty extraordinary stuff.....living a perfect life is one of them. There were a ton of human characters in the BIble who did some unbelievable stuff.....for us, but for God anything is possible.

 

Also note that the account of Matthew is almost the exact same on this passage. How would you explain that?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud

Also note that the account of Matthew is almost the exact same on this passage. How would you explain that?

 

Matthew used the Gospel of Mark when compiling his Gospel.

[sweetbilly]

The only reason why we preach about our beliefs is because we are concerned about the lost sheep. Loving people is the side effect of being saved ( you just can't help yourself you feel so good you want to tell everyone ). It would be just fine for us to never say a word about being saved to the lost. There's no condemnation for the saved who don't speak, just a higher degree of rewards when we get there. And it's not about what you do in life that saves you, it's about who you are with. There are only two entitys fighting for souls God and Satan and everything in the world is either part of one or the other which explains things like crop circles, people seeing aliens, pictures of the virgin mary on windows, or anything that will lead in the opposite direction of God. Are you saying that praying to the virgin mary or the pope isn't giving worship to a graven image. Then why not pray to Budah, allah, or to the other six-thousand Gods in hinduism, aliens, crop circles, And many people have done just this, but God said there is no other name under heaven that has saving grace, so parying to anyone but God, is to say the least, useless. Besides, there are other things about catholic teaching that disprove their teachings too. Like reincarnation, if reincarnation was true then everyone after the flood would actually be in hell, and there is no getting out of hell it's eternal. And no, i'm not miseducated on catholic teachings either everyone before my father was catholic so I learned alot more about catholic teachings than you think I have it's just that I can discern between things that make no sence and the truth. I will say this much about their teachings they aren't very far off from the truth, if they would only throw out the things that have been disproved God would win alot of souls. But of course pride is a real killer. I don't have to shove a any message down anyones throat I've only made comments concerning physical evidence and common sence using scripture that has been collected for years, and your just you're angry because you don't have any explanation for them. your begining to sound very bitter.

[quankanne]

I know it may be frustrating, but perhaps she was just not at the same intellectual level as you and couldn't grasp your concept. (I like your concept BTW - I didn't think of it like that at all. You gave me a new way to look at it)

 

thank you for that flattering comment ... though I don't necessarily think of myself as having that kind of "intellectual" depth!!! Mostly, I see faith as a visceral sort of thing that is very hard to explain, but the love equation as something that tends to make sense, because we all can identify with love. I'm glad that I could help give some food for thought.

 

There's no condemnation for the saved who don't speak, just a higher degree of rewards when we get there and Are you saying that praying to the virgin mary or the pope isn't giving worship to a graven image

 

I'm going to kick myself later for asking, but where exactly is your line of questioning/thoughts coming from? It's curious for me to read how I, as a Catholic, "worship" someone other than God when I ask for (i.e. "petition") someone like my heavenly Mother or tried and true holy men and women for prayers on my behalf (the concept of intercessory prayer), yet you don't have a problem with believing that someone who preaches receives "a higher degree of rewards" from God when he/she dies.

 

It's easy for someone who doesn't believe in intercessory prayer, especially from heaven, to misconstrue what it is, and that's okay. Some folks feel comfortable with asking "friends in high places" to put in a good word for them when asking for God's blessings -- no different than contacting your prayer circle in church (or even on this forum) and asking for prayers to help you through a rough spot -- would this be considered worshiping the folks on this board or in the office or at church when we asked for their prayers?

 

I'm still trying to figure out the "higher rewards" phrase you posted. Does that mean someone who is too shy to speak out, but lives a holy life by doing what God asks of them, will fail to reap the rewards of heaven? Or does that mean he gets neither the signing bonus, the car allowance nor the 401K perks of heaven? I thought that heaven was about getting to spend the rest of your life in adoration of God, loving him forever and ever. Doesn't seem like any room for other "perks"!

[sonofhud]

There's no condemnation for the saved who don't speak, just a higher degree of rewards when we get there.

 

HAve to disagree....the speakers are usually to busy preachin and not livin. You live your life in the way you believe Christ did, and other people will follow that. You can't win them over by preaching.

 

After all of the words you have typed into this forum, how many people do you think have changed their views of God because you said "thats the way it is, or else?" I mean, I almost completely agree with some of the things you are saying, but your strategy for getting the message out is like every other hardcore baptist I've known.

[sweetbilly]

The virgin mary was a person. Jesus, on the other hand, is God. Having your friends pray for you is ok i do it all the time, but praying TO someone is a form of worship. I agree sonofhud, but what about the nations that haven't heard of Jesus. Besides, I recall a part of scripture wher Jesus said to his deciples, while holding a child, "this will be the greatest in my fathers kingdom" which suggests a system of rank, so to speak. It's possible to fall away from God and loose grace, but for those people who continue to believe and act as though they do believe, there is no condemnation (as in hell). There were also times where Jesus told his deciples to stop preaching dust their feet off and leave town. Yet, there's no condemnation for the deciples because the town refused to listen. Just because someone dosen't want to hear your message dosen't mean you're cooked. God also said "those who have much, much is required of them" ( I attribute this to everyday situations that will, upon death, increase rewards or diminish them ). Hell has different levels and so does heaven. So, yes, I guess I do believe there are "perks" as you would call it. "it is better to be the least in heaven than to be the greatest in hell" some people might say that's a metaphor, but I feel it, like many parts of scripture, is an all-incompasing message. And I'm sorry you feel like kicking youself, I would never kick myself for telling you about God, for some christains it means more than it does for others. However, I wouldn't be so defensive if I Hadn't gotten slamed first in the last post( all iwas trying to do was express what I believed concerning the question posed). Because from there I felt the gloves, so to speak, were off. Look, the way I feel about Heaven/ hell is that everyone that believes Jesus is God, and lives accordingly, will be there. Those who don't won't. I think where we all disagree is our interpratation of scripture, and the point I was trying to get across is that the faith that is closest to correctly interprating the word of God is the faith that has the most and closest physical proof of their message. After all, those who are the farthest from God will show it, and those who are the closest will show it in their actions as well. I just don't like political correctness, nothing ever gets resolved, and eventually everyone gets hurt because of it.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

you just can't help yourself you feel so good you want to tell everyone

Usually these elated happy sheep say something along the lines of, "SAVE YOURSELF FROM BURNING IN HELL YOU HEATHEN", etc..,

Are you saying that praying to the virgin mary or the pope isn't giving worship to a graven image.

No Roman Catholic worships the Virgin Mary or the Pope, you are miseducated about Catholic teaching, at the very least.

Then why not pray to Budah

Buddhists don't pray to Buddha, you are miseducated about Buddhism, at the very least.

...allah,

The Muslim ALLAH and the Christian GOD are not different entities. Muslims accept Jesus as their personal savior, isn't that all you gotta do?

Besides, there are other things about catholic teaching that disprove their teachings too. Like reincarnation, if reincarnation was true then everyone after the flood would actually be in hell, and there is no getting out of hell it's eternal.

Reincarnation is a Hindu belief. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught reincarnation. This is just an ignorant slur, you're miseducated, I'm literally yawning.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/reincar4.html

And no, i'm not miseducated on catholic teachings either everyone before my father was catholic so I learned alot more about catholic teachings than you think I have it's just that I can discern between things that make no sence and the truth.

So far you're 0 for 3 on Catholic teachings, so I question your truth. You are VERY VERY miseducated about Catholicism. If you'd like to learn about Catholicism, read a Catechism, don't go off the words of people who are looking to defeat something they do not understand.

Originally posted by sweetbilly

The virgin mary was a person. Jesus, on the other hand, is God. Having your friends pray for you is ok i do it all the time, but praying TO someone is a form of worship.

No Roman Catholic prays to the Virgin Mary, you are miseducated about Catholic teaching, at the very least.

Besides, I recall a part of scripture wher Jesus said to his deciples, while holding a child, "this will be the greatest in my fathers kingdom" which suggests a system of rank, so to speak.

YOU have an idea about ranking system in heaven. YOU look for a scripture verse that could possibly suggest something along the possible lines of what you were suggesting. YOU conclude that as truth.

 

Please don't comment on Catholic teachings until you actually learn about them, everything Catholicwise, posted by you so far, is a lie.

[yllany]

Originally posted by sonofhud

Well, I have to disagree with your disagreement. Mark was a dicsciple of God the human, better known as Jesus. Don't you think he would have a little bit more guidance when writing verses in God's book?

 

Jesus was a human, but he managed to do some pretty extraordinary stuff.....living a perfect life is one of them. There were a ton of human characters in the BIble who did some unbelievable stuff.....for us, but for God anything is possible.

 

Also note that the account of Matthew is almost the exact same on this passage. How would you explain that?

 

With all respect for your own faith, our last statement begs the question: why would even 4 Gospels be needed to tell the 'definitive' story of Jesus' life. Why not just one, or 7 ?

 

True, for an omnipotent God, every thing is possible... But at the risk of repeating myself, for me, it REALLY comes down to one's very own faith in a given God. We may seek proof of our beliefs in the Gospels or the Old Testament, but in the end it becomes a chicken & egg deal. One has to believe in the assumed proof of one's faith. CIRCULAR REASONING !

 

I may burn in the Big Toaster for all of Eternity for not believing in your God. But I think I'll wait for the Second Coming. Once I see Him and His Son, and all those zillions of angels trumpeting the Final Victory...

I believe that there is more to us than we can detect with our 5 or 6 usual senses. I also believe that we all are part of that Entity which most of us need in our lives, and which we call Divinity. It is US OURSELVES, plus everything that surrounds us, ALL of Creation !

 

--yllany

[onemoralgirlwhocares]

We are all born with sin. We ask God for forgiveness. Turn away from our old way of being. Instead of "I am gonna do this or that" it becomes "Does the Lord approve of me doing this or that?" You learn a new way of

living life the way the Lord put you here to live. This is where you learn what "the truth will set you free" really means. Everything in your life you see differently. Even different reasons for everything going on. You live your life wanting to be with your fellow members in the Church. You gain strenght and joy from Church and want to learn more and more. All this is what the phrase " being saved" is about. I dont know if I explained anything well here in my words. Asking the Lord for answers is what brings you around to the Church (the true one) and leads you to become saved!

 

One person out there

[quankanne]

nicely put, onemoralgirl ... but from my experience, that's *not* the answer the doorbangers want to hear. I'm beginning to wonder if in their understanding of salvation, the emphasis is on man's sinfulness, rather than the promise of a person's belief (a better relationship with God, learning more about that relationship and doing more to reflect it).

 

I know I'm a sinner, but I'd much rather focus on the journey of trying to better myself spiritually than squealing like a stuck pig over my sinfulness!!!!

[morrigan]

Criminals on death row often find God--some for superficial purposes (to impress, ease boredom), some for fear of punishment in an afterlife, some for a deep conviction and repentance of their crimes. Will they be saved, be punished, be reincarnated, or will their soul simply end? I don't have the answers for that. There are many roads to God and Christ.

 

Salvation is God's gift, and while we all should try as much as possible to assist others and try to avoid avarice, cruelty, and indifference towards fellow people, I don't think there's a merit system of salvation, or that it should be the focus of one's faith. I think anyone of any religion, or no religion at all, may be saved.

[sweetbilly]

I have to disagree morrigan, if all people can be saved by God why would a so called prophet in islam, judism, or the son of God in christainity, say quote" I am the light, truth, and the way, and no man shall come unto the father except through me", this is the reason why people involved in other relligions connot be saved; because they do not recognise him as the son of god, just as a prophet. If Jesus said this and it turned out to be a lie then he wouldn't be the son of God he would actually be a false prophet? And i don't think it is for any man to know who will be saved or who will be condemned, that's for God to decide; only he knows a persons heart. But i don't think it's possible to serve both God and satan, as per scriptures instruction, so Jesus and Jesus alone must be the recepient of worsihp. And without Jesus we would have never known how to conduct ourselves like Christ (as per scripture). Thus, the need for god. So if Jesus was the son of God being the product of both the seed of God and the egg of a woman wouldn't that in fact make him God in carnate.

[Arabess]

If I were God and the final day was at hand, I would simply wonder why everyone dismissed me rather than just asking ME if I existed and what the truth was.

 

If you ask and He doesn't answer....then it's a moot point. How would you have a personal relationship with a God who didn't communicate with you?

 

But what it you asked and He DID answer????

[sweetbilly]

Arabess, I asked, he answered.

[Arabess]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

Arabess, I asked, he answered.

 

EXACTLY! That's why you feel as stongly as you do.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

I have to disagree morrigan, if all people can be saved by God why would a so called prophet in islam, judism, or the son of God in christainity, say quote" [color=red]I am the light, truth, and the way, and no man shall come unto the father except through me[/color]"

[...]

this is the reason why people involved in other relligions connot be saved; because they do not recognise him as the son of god, just as a prophet.

There you go twisting scripture again. Where in the red quote above did Jesus say a Christian recognition is neccessary for salvation? All he said was that through him, people are saved. He made no mention of human volition. Interpreting the Bible a certain way to help you live your life is wonderful, but interpreting it another way to condemn others is detestable.