BrainRightHeartWrong Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 it is funny to watch some posters using the term 'unconditional love' and how they can or will provide it... there is simply no such thing between any two partners! the closest thing to this myth is the relationship between a mother and her children or maybe even a father and his children... and even then there are a quite a few conditions i would imagine that would test this unconditional love! a wise man once told me you'll never find a woman who will love you as much as your mother! Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 there is simply no such thing between any two partners I agree. Nor parents for kids, either. All it means is that someone gives more leeway to someone else to do bad stuff without disliking them for it. That's ok for kids, when the worst they can do (usually) would be draw with crayon on the walls. For this to be true of adults, one partner would have to love the other despite abuse, infidelity, murder, torture, or anything else. The whole point of 'unconditional', after all, is the sense that there is nothing whatsoever which can end that love. IMHO, anyone who loves an adult unconditionally is totally without healthy boundaries for that reason. God can afford to love unconditionally; it won't end him up in a hospital or dead. Not so we humans. Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Originally posted by BrainRightHeartWrong it is funny to watch some posters using the term 'unconditional love' and how they can or will provide it... there is simply no such thing between any two partners! the closest thing to this myth is the relationship between a mother and her children or maybe even a father and his children... and even then there are a quite a few conditions i would imagine that would test this unconditional love! a wise man once told me you'll never find a woman who will love you as much as your mother! How can you possibly speak for every person? I'm sorry if that hasn't been the case with you, but for me it's true. If you're referring to my post under the "name five things about marriage" thread, that is one thing I think should definitely exist in a marriage, and it exists in mine. Believe it or not. To quote you, sure there are things that could "test" unconditional love, but I can't think of ANYTHING my husband could do that would make me stop loving him. And I know what you're thinking. I know that marriages sometimes break up because of various things that occur and that sometimes people do stop loving each other. But in my case it hasn't happened and I'd like to believe it never will. It's just a personal thing. I'm not speaking for everybody, and I don't appreciate it when people try to speak for me and everybody else. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 No need to get ticked. Often this happens to me, too - a poster will mention an idea or concept and I'll post a thread about my thoughts about that idea or concept. Nothing to do with the poster. It's about the idea. For sake of argument: a woman found out after something like twenty years of marriage that throughout that time, when she was out of town, her husband would find young boys that he'd rape, murder, and bury in their yard. True story. Would you still love that man? Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Oh jeez, leave it to someone to throw in the abuse issue. I guess I didn't even think of that because it would never occur in my marriage. I guess that's one "condition" I could put on it. I mean, I would still love him, would probably feel sorry for him, because it would mean he needs help beyond what I could give him. So would I leave? Sure. Would I stop loving him deep in my heart? Probably not. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BrainRightHeartWrong Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 nope wasn't referring to any particular poster! i think you could be mistaken or misunderstand the term unconditional i could list a range of stuff your husband could do to make you stop loving him but i won't make out an imaginative sick graphic list of possibilities that humans can and do inflict upon others! nobody here on ls speaks for everybody, most of us believe we aren't god, we are here to help, receive help or express our opinions Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 First of all, I never said I was "ticked." Nor did I try to imply that I'm God. Also, my post about abuse showed up after Moimeme's second post. I meant for it to be in response to her "abuse" post, just to clarify. I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think if you go back and read the first post in this thread, you'll see that the words "my opinion" were not used. The poster seemed to post their thoughts as facts. I think we're getting into a semantics argument now, unnessarily. I appreciate your opinions; please appreciate mine. Thanks! p.s. Furthermore, my posting "unconditional love" in another thread was regarding MY marriage - not a general statement. I have been with my husband long enough and know him well enough to know that he would NEVER do the sick things moimeme mentioned; therefore, I can safely say that I love him unconditionally. What the future may hold, I guess nobody can say for sure. I'll give you that. But NOW, TODAY, I love him unconditionally. Is that better? Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I think we're getting into a semantics argument now Therefore, the point is moot. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BrainRightHeartWrong Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 Nor did I try to imply that I'm God I think if you go back and read the first post in this thread, you'll see that the words "my opinion" were not used do i need to state 'in my opinion... ' blah blah blah ? obviously it is my opinion! off course we appreciate your opinions, it is a 'discussion' forum afterall and Loveshack at that! i understand you love your husband unconditionally just as long as he agrees to the conditions of your marriage Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by BrainRightHeartWrong i understand you love your husband unconditionally just as long as he agrees to the conditions of your marriage I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at there. Perhaps you could explain. I've been thinking about my term "unconditional love" as I posted it on the marriage thread. I do think I give my husband (and my son and stepson) unconditional love in the sense that I don't put conditions on it such as, "If you do X, Y or Z for me I'll love you." You can call me a fool, but I have a lot of love to give and I try not to hold back. Maybe that will get me hurt in the future, but how will you find out if you don't open up and give all that you have? Originally posted by Moimeme I agree. Nor parents for kids, either. All it means is that someone gives more leeway to someone else to do bad stuff without disliking them for it. That's ok for kids, when the worst they can do (usually) would be draw with crayon on the walls. I totally disagree. I think anyone who has kids will tell you that they have unconditional love for them. And believe me, there are MUCH worse things they can do than draw with crayons on the walls...much worse. But you still love them because they are your children. You can dislike the action and still love the child unconditionally. Just my opinion, of course. Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 A marriage love usually does seem to have conditions, as the others have noted. I don't have kids, so I cant really answer on that type of love. But I feel my parents probably love me unconditionally. It's nice to aspire to loving without too many conditions though, within reason of course. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BrainRightHeartWrong Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 ok i shall explain... ladyangel what i am saying is that your relationship and marriage is CONDITIONAL!!! well what are marriage vows? er em... i agree to blah blah blah... HELLO!!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!!!!!! is that not a sequence of conditions? why do you think people are afraid to get married? because of the CONDITIONS involved!!!!! and this behavior is more popular than before! you sound like a lovely person and i agree in unconditional love in the FANTASY sense... its a bit like believing in the tooth fairy or lechprechauns if you are from my country! hence yes its a lovely thing to believe in but when the s*** hits the fan its only idealology! You can call me a fool, but I have a lot of love to give and I try not to hold back i like people like you, we need more of you in this world! Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by BrainRightHeartWrong ok i shall explain... ladyangel what i am saying is that your relationship and marriage is CONDITIONAL!!! well what are marriage vows? er em... i agree to blah blah blah... HELLO!!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!!!!!! is that not a sequence of conditions? No, because it doesn't say, "And if you don't do blah blah blah I will stop loving you." why do you think people are afraid to get married? because of the CONDITIONS involved!!!!! and this behavior is more popular than before! you sound like a lovely person and i agree in unconditional love in the FANTASY sense... its a bit like believing in the tooth fairy or lechprechauns if you are from my country! hence yes its a lovely thing to believe in but when the s*** hits the fan its only idealology! My marriage vows said a lot of things, including that we would love, etc...till death do us part. I don't think of them as conditions. I think of it as a pledge of your love for each other. I can understand your point of view about conditions (I think) and that sometimes people don't keep their marriage vows and people get hurt and divorces result. That's true. I think I pointed out earlier that in MY case I can't imagine anything he could do that would make me stop loving him. But I think I also agreed to the caveat that Moimeme added about abuse... that I would leave him, feel sorry for him, know that he needed help, but would never stop loving him. Maybe you and I have different views on love, who knows. And I don't think it matters what country you're from. i like people like you, we need more of you in this world! Um...thanks...I think. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 You are all arguing semantics. Unconditional love is a willingness to work through issues, not a compassionate threshold for murder, torture, or whatever other yucky nouns we can come up with. Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Well, Dyermaker, that's a good point...but it is yet one more definition of the term Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker You are all arguing semantics. Unconditional love is a willingness to work through issues, not a compassionate threshold for murder, torture, or whatever other yucky nouns we can come up with. Thanks for putting it into words I was having a hard time coming up with. But you've nailed it. I also have what I would consider unconditional love for my parents and my siblings. They could do things that would make me angry, hurt me or whatever, but deep down my love for them would never change. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I have yet to experience or observe what I would call unconditional love in the strictest, most literal sense of the term. Humans usually set conditions when it comes to any kind of relationship. I for one would have a hard time loving a sibling or parent if I felt that they, in turn, did not love me. That's one condition, and perhaps the most important one of all. It's hard to apply the term literally to romantic relationships, too. Attraction and the process of selecting a mate often involves "conditions"...religion or spirituality...experience or history of past behavior...how likely someone is to be a provider...one's health...their physical and psychological attractiveness...all of these things are (or otherwise involve) conditions we use to select our partner for life. Dyer makes a good point. I think when we use the term "unconditional love" with respect to couples, we are referring to each partner's capacity to show love and commitment to the other, in spite of the other person's latent faults or hard luck. Link to post Share on other sites
RainbowLove Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I failed to feel the positive intention in BrainRightHeartWrong's thread here. To scoff or laugh at another's vulnerable point of view (whether you deem it right or wrong) is just a statement that you stand at the throne of your own arrogance. Arrogance stands closely beside ignorance IMHO - with sincerest respect I ask that you not tag yourself wiser than your boots. A wise man is not wise enough to claim that you'll never find a woman who loves you as your mother. Sorry but what a generalised load of crock! We're all human, here to experience life... Unconditional love - that's what we're all living to learn. People who place posts are students of life wishing to express their ideals, fantasies etc etc and have the right to do so. To scoff at their vulnerability is the fool who knows not much. What one knows for his/her certainty is what another has an extreme opposing view on - doesn't make either right or wrong. And that's the beauty of it. Respecting that someone's post is of difference to yours. My definition of Unconditional Love for Mankind would be Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandala, Gandhi, I use his name in vain now but Jesus - those who struggle and never give up the good fight. But that doesn't mean they should be idolised because they were human also with weaknesses and temptations just like us also. My definition of Unconditional Love in Romantic Relation - well that I still find a mystery. I guess I think an example of this would be: "I love you because you make me stronger and my life is warmer and brighter with you in it, however should you trespass my spirit and progress, I will still love you, and I will forgive you, but it will be goodbye for now, I wish you love and light my friend". True Unconditional, Pure Love for the Self is the first challenge prior to taking on any of the above themes. When this is achieved then truly will we know the meaning of Unconditional Love - and hence, Unconditional Love for others. I figure we'll start to see more and more that nothing matters but Love... all smaller, darker, negative associations will slowly start to dissipate and bring you back to knowing that Love - that's all it is, Love Is All That Matters... So divine... now I'm getting mystical - better go! Link to post Share on other sites
Author BrainRightHeartWrong Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 To scoff or laugh at another's vulnerable point of view funny as in STRANGE! not funny HAHA! My definition of Unconditional Love wouldn't it be better to go by the general definition of the english language for the sake of understanding one another instead of making up definitions of your own words and expecting others to understand you? now I'm getting mystical - better go! you said it! Link to post Share on other sites
LikkleMissConfused Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 BrainRightHeartWrong I completely agree with. I too don't beleive there can be uncoditional love. And I think LadyAngel should also let other people have their say. I agree that nobody loves me unconditionally other than my parents. I don't beleive i will be able to have that kind of love for a man nor a man have that love for me. I think the concept of unconditional love in a relationship is immature and a fantasy. The world and people in this world are just not like like. To love someone unconditionally you must know their mind their thoughts etc etc. Nobody knows a person inside out, everyone has deep and dark secrets about themselves whether it is as serious as a persion abusing boys not known to his wife EXAMPLE by the way taken from this thread or the fact that they know they are insecure and lask in confidence and put up a front. Unconditional love!!!! Nope as much as its hard to accept but that is life. Link to post Share on other sites
LikkleMissConfused Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 oHHH RainbowLove I agree with you aswell unconditional love should be found within yourself for yourself. Nice words mate.... Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by LikkleMissConfused BrainRightHeartWrong I completely agree with. I too don't beleive there can be uncoditional love. And I think LadyAngel should also let other people have their say. I believe I HAVE let others have their say. And I'm also entitled to mine, without being mocked, told that I'm wrong and that I live in a fantasy world, or I must be immature. I've chosen not to judge others, only express what I feel is true for me. We all speak for ourselves, our experiences in life, our feelings, our relationships. Nobody can claim to speak for everybody, only for themselves. That's all I'm doing. Give me a break. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 This is getting ridiculous. BRHW is using the standard definition of 'unconditional', as am I. The dictionary exists for a reason; that we all understand the standardized meaning of a word. It's all lovely and dreamy that everybody's coming up with their 'own' definition of 'unconditional' but that is not helpful for this discussion. Imagine if we all decided to come up with our own definitions for every word. Nobody would understand anybody. There is one definition of unconditional: unconditional \Un`con*di"tion*al\, a. Not conditional limited, or conditioned; made without condition; absolute; unreserved; as, an unconditional surrender. dictionary.com In this case, it means that you claim you will love your spouse even if he rapes and murders all your children and your parents in front of you, for to say that 'in that case, I would not love him' imposes one condition. BRHW was not slanging any one person nor any one person's ideas. More than just some LSers use the term 'unconditional love'. Those of us who think it's the wrong term to use do so because we kinda think that it's helpful to stick to accepted definitions of words. You can call loving someone 'greensocks love' or 'specious love' or 'antipodan love' or 'ridiculous love' if you want, and mean whatever you feel like if you wish, but for the sake of a discussion such as this, it is more than silly to insist that YOUR definition of 'unconditional' should be THE defintion Link to post Share on other sites
Dug Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I suppose I believe that a parent & child relationship is as close a representation as most will ever see....or so the divorce rate says. God bless those of you who believe in it, and celebrate your life if you find it and woe to us who are still looking. Link to post Share on other sites
ladyangel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme This is getting ridiculous. Yup. BRHW is using the standard definition of 'unconditional', as am I. The dictionary exists for a reason; that we all understand the standardized meaning of a word. It's all lovely and dreamy that everybody's coming up with their 'own' definition of 'unconditional' but that is not helpful for this discussion. Oh please. Are you saying there aren't any words in the English language that can be interpreted in different ways by different people, that we can't all have our own opinions, whether they mesh with yours or not? I don't believe any ONE person is in charge of deciding what is or is not "helpful for this discussion." Everybody has something to say and should be allowed to say it...period. There is one definition of unconditional...dictionary.com We can all read the dictionary. Thanks. Just like we can read bible passages, literary works, etc. and each have our own interpretations. In this case, it means that you claim you will love your spouse even if he rapes and murders all your children and your parents in front of you, for to say that 'in that case, I would not love him' imposes one condition. But wait a minute...isn't this YOUR interpretation of the definition from the dictionary? Secondly, read up. I never said, "I would not love him," imposing conditions. I said that I would leave him, feel sorry for him, know that he was sick and needed help. They're not the same, are they? BRHW was not slanging any one person nor any one person's ideas. Well, actually he did, by referring to me by name. More than just some LSers use the term 'unconditional love'. I'm glad you recognize that fact. Those of us who think it's the wrong term to use do so because we kinda think that it's helpful to stick to accepted definitions of words. Accepted by whom? That's a matter of opinion. ...for the sake of a discussion such as this, it is more than silly to insist that YOUR definition of 'unconditional' should be THE defintion I have never insisted that my definition was THE definition. And I agree it would be silly to do so. Hmm. For goodness sakes, do we need to be browbeaten into accepting what SOME people on a forum have to say? I think not. I can accept that everybody has their own opinions. Can you? Link to post Share on other sites
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