"Open Marriage?"

[fltc]

I wonder about an "Open Marriage", I can certainly understand an open relationship (although it's not something I'd want for myself!) but isn't "Open Marriage" an oxymoron?

 

If either or both spouses can have sex with others is that a marriage at all? Personally, I don't believe it is and I'd like to see the term "Open Relationship" replace the the term "Open Marriage"

 

Opinions?

[JustJoe]

An "open marriage", is one where one or the other spouses is sexually dis-satisfied, and in order to get satisfaction, will "suggest", opening the marriage to other people. What it really means is; " I'm gonna eff other people, I would rather not cheat nor do I want to be alone when I'm not effing other people, plus I want somebody to help with expenses, so you can stick around and we can pretend we're actually a couple." It's true that the spouse that IS satisfied is also allowed to eff other people, but the dissatisfied one doesn't care anyway, because he/she is getting it from the om/ow.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Joe, Joe, whadda ya know.

 

When it comes to 'open' relationships, it seems not much. Not everyone values monogamy. Not everyone wants it, needs it, craves it, or likes it.

 

Would you categorize someone that occasionally eats at a restaurant as being dissatisfied with the food available at home? If you play golf with a buddy, does that mean your dissatisfied with the recreational activities with you and your spouse?

 

Successful open relationships between happy, sexually satisfied partners are happening all around you, you just aren't made aware of it.

[fltc]

An "open marriage", is one where one or the other spouses is sexually dis-satisfied, and in order to get satisfaction, will "suggest", opening the marriage to other people. What it really means is; " I'm gonna eff other people, I would rather not cheat nor do I want to be alone when I'm not effing other people, plus I want somebody to help with expenses, so you can stick around and we can pretend we're actually a couple." It's true that the spouse that IS satisfied is also allowed to eff other people, but the dissatisfied one doesn't care anyway, because he/she is getting it from the om/ow.

 

I think you totally missed the point, I'm asking if an "open marriage" IS, in fact, a marriage. I say, by definition, it is not.

[sally4sara]

I think you totally missed the point, I'm asking if an "open marriage" IS, in fact, a marriage. I say, by definition, it is not.

 

It the couple has a marriage license, they are married. You or I might not call that a marriage by style, but a court will call it a marriage; by contract anyway.

[J-Dub]

Some couples may be able to make it work, but honestly for the majority of people I think it's just asking for trouble. Because one way or another, there will be some jealousy involved and you'd always wonder if your partner enjoyed the other person better than you, etc. It's a slippery slope and I just don't see how it could end well. I'd never do it.

[JustJoe]

I think you totally missed the point, I'm asking if an "open marriage" IS, in fact, a marriage. I say, by definition, it is not.

Dude, did you read my post? Does that sound like a marriage to you? Okay, if you want it in braille. If there is a license it is LEGALLY a marriage. But in every other way , it isn't a true marriage but some sort of new age junk, like Scientology. It's a "feel good",excuse for adultery. Like Scientology is a "feel good", alternative to real religion. Both are based on fiction.

[JustJoe]

Joe, Joe, whadda ya know.

 

When it comes to 'open' relationships, it seems not much. Not everyone values monogamy. Not everyone wants it, needs it, craves it, or likes it.

 

Would you categorize someone that occasionally eats at a restaurant as being dissatisfied with the food available at home? If you play golf with a buddy, does that mean your dissatisfied with the recreational activities with you and your spouse?

 

Successful open relationships between happy, sexually satisfied partners are happening all around you, you just aren't made aware of it.

Listen, Brooklyn, You show me an "open marriage", with the same level of commitment, love, trust, and bonding that a traditional marriage has, and maybe we'll talk. All of them I've seen have been fiascos. SOMEBODY is usually getting f**ked, and I don't mean carnally.

[jenifer1972]

What Joe said, because to me, exclusivity is implicit to my view of marriage. Other cultures and other eras had/ have different views.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Listen, Brooklyn, You show me an "open marriage", with the same level of commitment, love, trust, and bonding that a traditional marriage has, and maybe we'll talk.

 

You just described my marriage. We're more swing than true 'open', in fact I didn't used to describe our relationship as 'open' because the one rule we do have is we always play together, but then I realized a relationship is either closed (monogamous), or it's not.

 

My wife and I have an amazing, loving marriage, I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[carhill]

Marriage is a meeting of the minds and souls (if one believes in that stuff) of the participants. They decide what the word marriage means to them. It's also a cool way to get some great legal, financial and estate powers without a ton of money spent on lawyers. So, for some people, marriage is a perfect vehicle to live efficiently in society and follow their path of what relationships and marriage are. For some, that's polyamory; others, swinging; others monogamy.

 

Personally, I can only bond and have sex with one woman at a time, so I'd fall onto the monogamous path. If I could be intimate emotionally and/or sexually with more than one person at a time and found a like-minded person who was compatible for the day-to-day life of being married and we each found the other attractive, I could see such an 'open' marriage working.

 

The key, IMO, is synergy. This is especially critical if 'opening' occurs after the contract has been struck as a monogamous contract, meaning the entire relationship and marriage must be renegotiated. Many parameters will change. Both partners must be of the same mind on the changes and feel positive about the result.

 

I have a few friends in open relationships but am not aware of any open marriages.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Carhill, you are absolutely correct. The problem is, some people, as we've already seen on this short thread, and that I've seen on just about every thread on the topic I've ever read on LS, project their feelings onto other people.

 

It's true there are people who would be decidedly unhappy living as we do, which is why we don't try to recruit people. But some of those people think that just because they would be unhappy, by definition ALL sane, normal people should (and secretly do, even if they claim otherwise) feel the same way. I never have understood that mindset.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Joe comes back and declares that my wife cannot possibly be genuinely interested, I must have forced her to comply against her wishes. I don't know how he would know that, even were it true, but I can assure in no uncertain terms that it is not.

[JustJoe]

IDK, how good you are at marriage, but you're really good at projecting, CPL. One of the easiest ways to win an argument is to put words into the mouths of your opponent, that you already have the answers to. Now if you really want to debate this issue, I'm your huckleberry, but if you're going to disrespect me and invent my replys, then don't bother. My opinions are mine as yours are yours, and I've seen more "open marriages", and swinging marriages than you might think. I try to be polite, but I expect it in return, okay?

[woinlove]

Actually, I think sxyNYC got it right about you, JustJoe, thinking you know better what others think than they know themselves. Your posts on earlier threads and on this one (which starts off with a proclamation of what people in open marriages are motivated by) illustrate that fact.

 

We all got it a while ago: you think you know our motivations and feelings surrounding being in open marriages. We don't happen to agree with you. Frankly, why should we care that you think we aren't happy and committed and fulfilled when we know we are? Really, what's to debate?

 

As to those who think open marriages should not exist or be called marriages -- call them whatever makes you feel good -- but if you don't want them to exist, depending on where you live, you'll probably have to put in the work of trying to get a proposition passed banning them and as the voters in California learned, that's no guarantee that the courts will agree with you. Where I live, there is a legal definition of adultery and that legal definition explicitly excludes extra-marital relations which are condoned by the other spouse, as in an open marriage. Don't like it? Well, try to change the law if you want, but I don't think you have any chance whatsoever of victory on that one.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Joe, by all means put forward any argument you have. But let me give you my opinion.

 

You have said that you've seen many 'open' marriages go bad. Given your specific circumstances, that does not surprise me. As an Army Officer seeing soldiers decide to have open relationships because of the nature of their lives, you are not seeing people who DESIRE open relationships, you're seeing people trying to realistically deal with their circumstances. And you are right, when people who don't WANT an open relationship nonetheless agree to one, it's a formula for disaster.

 

However, as I have said before, not everyone values or desires monogamy. When two people who feel that way are in a relationship, it is possible to have a very successful open relationship. That's not to say that everyone should try it because it's so great, it's only great if it's something that works for those involved. You would probably be absolutely shocked at how many people it does work for, but it's not for everyone.

 

And for you to decide that they're lying to themselves, or that one partner is forcing the other to participate is assuming facts very much not in evidence. It DOES happen, unfortunately. But those people may as well be wearing a neon sign, as it's painfully obvious with only very shallow observations required. That said, it's rare, as most people in the Lifestyle are there because they want to be.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Joe, by all means put forward any argument you have. But let me give you my opinion.

 

You have said that you've seen many 'open' marriages go bad. Given your specific circumstances, that does not surprise me. As an Army Officer seeing soldiers decide to have open relationships because of the nature of their lives, you are not seeing people who DESIRE open relationships, you're seeing people trying to realistically deal with their circumstances. And you are right, when people who don't WANT an open relationship nonetheless agree to one, it's a formula for disaster.

 

However, as I have said before, not everyone values or desires monogamy. When two people who feel that way are in a relationship, it is possible to have a very successful open relationship. That's not to say that everyone should try it because it's so great, it's only great if it's something that works for those involved. You would probably be absolutely shocked at how many people it does work for, but it's not for everyone.

 

And for you to decide that they're lying to themselves, or that one partner is forcing the other to participate is assuming facts very much not in evidence. It DOES happen, unfortunately. But those people may as well be wearing a neon sign, as it's painfully obvious with only very shallow observations required. That said, it's rare, as most people in the Lifestyle are there because they want to be.

 

Just the screen name piques my interest..... I think you said something in a prior post that really is not touched upon enough. I am not a proponent or supporter of "open relationships" and find the whole idea insidious... However that being said, you said it yourself that you are a Swinger, which I think is very different from one in an "open relationship" or "Polyamorous". Swinging too I don't get, but at least I can understand on a different level.

 

I also took a lot of flak saying if my spouse cheated once in a blue moon while separated by a business trip or by distance and purely for sex with no emotional attachment, that to me would be easier then her asking for an "open relationship".

 

You as a "swinger" too commented that it is the fact you do it together that makes it okay, and that if you were not playing together that may be a huge difference.

 

I have always used my marriage with ups and downs and fights. Would you as a "swinger" be comforatble going out for a night of "fun" if you two have been fighting? I wonder about those in "open relationships" with regular partners, how they claim to be happy and can't imagine what would happen if they are fighting and one leaves and goes to another partner for emotional and physical comfort. I know some fights that last 3-4 days with bad feelings and simmering anger. To think that either of us during that time may be with our "friends" is very scary.....

Edited January 8, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[sxyNYCcpl]

Would you as a "swinger" be comforatble going out for a night of "fun" if you two have been fighting?

 

Probably not, but I can count the number of fights we have had on one hand, and have fingers left over.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Probably not, but I can count the number of fights we have had on one hand, and have fingers left over.

 

You can't be an old married couple with children then....

[Lovinhimlovinher]

I don't know about anyone else but i know that my marriage IS real. It isn't just a legal issue it is a real marriage in a real family. We have made a commitment to each other for life. We are in no way breaking that commitment. We have jobs, kids, responsibility and a great sex life. So I am not sure how my marriage is not real. From what I have seen on LS most people accociate marraige and sex as the same thing. Yes sex plays an important part in a marriage but marriage is much more than just sex.

[Lovinhimlovinher]

You can't be an old married couple with children then....

 

 

I might not be old but I have been married for 8 years and we have 4 children and I can count on one hand the amount of times we have been mad enough at each other that we would raise our voices at each other. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that because of the type of relationship we have, we have to be very open and honest about feelings and problems that we are having. When you are like this in one area of your life it is bound to carry over to all aspects of your life. We rarely get to the point of being THAT mad at each other.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I might not be old but I have been married for 8 years and we have 4 children and I can count on one hand the amount of times we have been mad enough at each other that we would raise our voices at each other. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that because of the type of relationship we have, we have to be very open and honest about feelings and problems that we are having. When you are like this in one area of your life it is bound to carry over to all aspects of your life. We rarely get to the point of being THAT mad at each other.

 

And I mean that in the best possible way (really). You have already basically explained that he is the one with another relationship, not you. He comes and goes as he pleases and it is an EA and PA and you are left looking after 4 children. Are they all yours together under 8 years old? How can you purport to have an "open relationship", when he is the only one sleeping with others and you are left to look after the children?

 

All couples where there is a 50/50 relationship (something that I doubt is in this coupling) fight and # 1 & 2 is about money and the children. Please explain how you do it?

Edited January 8, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Lovinhimlovinher]

And I mean that in the best possible way (really). You have already basically explained that he is the one with another relationship, not you. He comes and goes as he pleases and it is an EA and PA and you are left looking after 4 children. Are they all yours together under 8 years old? How can you purport to have an "open relationship", when he is the only one sleeping with others and you are left to look after the children?

 

All couples where there is a 50/50 relationship (something that I doubt is in this coupling) fight and # 1 & 2 is about money and the children. Please explain how you do it?

 

 

Actually he is with the kids more than I am just due to the different community organizations and projects I am involved in. Also, due to this fact, I haven't had time to do much else besides keeping up with the kids homework. I have the option I just don't have the time. I have in the past but this last year has been very busy for me. I currently have found someone that I like and feel comfortable with and plans are in the mix for us to get together.

 

I felt I already answered the other part of this post. We talk and listen to each other. Plain and simple if I start to get pissed about something I tell him. We talk about it and figure out how to avoid it in the future. Same goes for him. Now we have a third person to our relationship and we have all done very well at talking about any worries or concerns. It really isn't as one sided as you think it is. I can come and go as I please as well and I do it just hasn't been about sex recently.

[Lovinhimlovinher]

Are they all yours together under 8 years old?

 

I forgot to answer this. Our oldest son was 5 years old when we got married. The younger three are all 15 months apart.

[sxyNYCcpl]

You can't be an old married couple with children then....

 

Early 40's, my wife has an 18 year old son.

[sxyNYCcpl]

All couples where there is a 50/50 relationship (something that I doubt is in this coupling) fight and # 1 & 2 is about money and the children. Please explain how you do it?

 

This wasn't addressed to me, but as I had previously stated we very rarely fight, I almost feel like it's a bit insulting. We very much are equals in this relationship, and neither of us is running roughshod over the other. But we are extremely similar, almost frighteningly so, about just about everything. It's not uncommon for us to be thinking the exact same thing at the exact same time, sometimes for a reason, say if we just watched a news story and had a similar reaction, but other times it's almost eerie as there is no reason for it. We don't argue about money because neither of us spends recklessly, and most significant purchases are joint decisions. We don't argue, much, about children because her son is not mine so I'm (mostly) deferential to her decisions. However, as he is 18 and we have recently decided to move out of state, he may end up going with his dad, or maybe even joining the military, as he doesn't want to come with us.

 

I could go on, but I don't think it serves a purpose.

 

My overriding point is that just because you (in a generic sense, I don't know if you personally think so) think that it's simply not possible to have a mutually loving, yet consensually non-monogamous relationship, you are simply wrong. For what it's worth most, though certainly not all, of the people we have met in the Lifestyle have similarly fantastic relationships. Perhaps that, of itself, is a pre-requisite to actually be 'successful' in the lifestyle, whatever that means. Now, if you (again, generically) DESIRE a monogamous relationship, I suggest you seek that out. But make sure the person with whom you are with agrees.

 

The problem is not monogamy or non-monogamy. The problem is when a person who desires monogamy is in a relationship with someone who doesn't. That won't end well in most cases.