Is the United States against marriage & family?

[Sanman]

While I rarely frequent these forums (because I am not married), a recent conversation I had with family from out of town got me thinking about the state of affairs in this country. While I would never assume a marriage to be an easy proposition, it seems as if western Europe and the lifestyle there is much more understanding of personal needs. England gives nine months of maternity leave, France gives three years of maternity leave, Germany allows extended paternity leave as well. These countries also encourage a 35-40 hour work week, which is quickly going by the wayside in the Unites States. While individuals in these countries might not amass the personal wealth many in the United States see, it seems as if the United States encourages career goals and work at the expense of healthy personal relationships. I feel as if a lot of anger, cheating, and simple unhappiness may be due to the fact that these heightened career expectations are put on Americans, especially in this troubled economy. I was wondering what other LSers thought about this.

[denise_xo]

I don't know if one can make the straight connections to anger, cheating and unhappiness. But being from Europe, I find the lack of regulated maternity/ paternity leave and other workers' rights in the US a bit puzzling. There are a lot of countries with much lower GDP than the US who offers extended maternity leave (e.g. three months). From the perspective of strengthening national economies, it makes sense to me that one puts in place policies that both encourage female participation in the work force combined with a minimum level of population growth. However, I assume that is a priority that Americans have made for some good reason and that's your choice.

[shadowofman]

Ha. America making a good choice? You Europeans are funny. We are very dog eat dog over here. Ask any American if they think women should get more maternity leave and your liable to get a hell no. There is an idea in America that if you are not WELL off, then you are just lazy. Or that anyone can be WELL off if they work harder.

 

We die working harder. Anger, cheating, and unhappiness is mostly due to poverty and debt.

[Woggle]

It very much is. It is ironic that the right keeps preaching about family values when the dog eat dog capitalism they promote is very much anti-family. Pure capitalism doesn't work anymore than pure communism does. They are both extremes that only sound good in theory.

[Stung]

I don't know if one can make the straight connections to anger, cheating and unhappiness. But being from Europe, I find the lack of regulated maternity/ paternity leave and other workers' rights in the US a bit puzzling. There are a lot of countries with much lower GDP than the US who offers extended maternity leave (e.g. three months). From the perspective of strengthening national economies, it makes sense to me that one puts in place policies that both encourage female participation in the work force combined with a minimum level of population growth. However, I assume that is a priority that Americans have made for some good reason and that's your choice.

 

The majority of Americans don't exactly choose their work hours, we're forced into them if we want to have jobs and be able to pay for our health insurance. In addition, America is in the middle of a baby boom partly fostered by lack of sexual education in schools and difficulty in obtaining birth control. Minimum population growth does not seem to be on the agenda here, although it should be.

 

I miss the European work schedule tremendously. It's much more of a struggle here to get any time off for quality of life, and it can wear you down.

 

Maternity leave was not an issue for me as I chose to scale way back on my personal clients when I had my son and managed my own schedule working from home. My husband managed to take two weeks off to stay home and bond with the baby--far more than most men get in practical terms. Although he could legally take six weeks paternity leave, that simply wasn't workable with his career. I had a c-section and wasn't even able to walk yet when he had to go back to the office.

[TwinkletOes26]

The majority of Americans don't exactly choose their work hours, we're forced into them if we want to have jobs and be able to pay for our health insurance. In addition, America is in the middle of a baby boom partly fostered by lack of sexual education in schools and difficulty in obtaining birth control. Minimum population growth does not seem to be on the agenda here, although it should be.

 

I miss the European work schedule tremendously. It's much more of a struggle here to get any time off for quality of life, and it can wear you down.

 

Maternity leave was not an issue for me as I chose to scale way back on my personal clients when I had my son and managed my own schedule working from home. My husband managed to take two weeks off to stay home and bond with the baby--far more than most men get in practical terms. Although he could legally take six weeks paternity leave, that simply wasn't workable with his career. I had a c-section and wasn't even able to walk yet when he had to go back to the office.

 

I agree with the bolded wholeheartedly...heck when you go to get BC you are not told all anything except take it everyday at the same time. Im talking not just from a clinic i went to a obgyn(got bc cause i have fibroids and they make me bleed heavily). Especially here in the south I sense many DR.s allow their own values to get in the way of relaying information.

 

I remember my OBGYN asking me if I was a virgin and I was at the time and I said yes and she was like "oh good you and your bf are waiting until marriage"... well as you can guess I refrained from asking her anything regarding sex. A lot of girls dont know that antibiotics can make bc ineffective and some girls dont know with certain bc you have to take it the same time everyday or it makes the bc less effective...If you miss one pill your chances of becoming preggo go up. I had to look all this information up as a teen but the avg teen did not. The parents refuse to talk frnakly with their children aout sex bc they think it will encourage them to do it. Newsflash teens are having sex the avg person loses their virginity at 15.

 

I also think that people in the US are realizing that marriage is not the be all end all...in fact I have heard ppl say if it were not for all the tax breaks and extra income they would not get married at all.....Im 28 now and I dont think im gonna marry until im in my 30s and I dont want kids until my mid 30s...

[NoLongerSad]

It's kind of hard to justify major, additional government benefits at a time when U.S. unemployment is close to 10% and we are already running yearly deficits in the trillions of $$$.

 

The largesse you are suggesting is very nice in theory--who wouldn't want a nice, long maternity/paternity leave, and even better, to get paid an income while on leave--but, the bottom line is these things have to be paid for.

 

It's all too possible to get very carried away with the notion that government benefits are infinite and don't have a net cost. Then you look at what's happening in Spain, Portugal, and some other places, and you realize that reality is different. The government money tree doesn't grow to the sky. Maybe you should check out what Angela Merkel has been saying for the past year or so?

 

I think generous maternity/paternity leave is a "good thing" but I also understand that it's essentially a transfer of wealth from people without children, or who have already had them, to people who are having them.

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know--you tell me--why should someone else pay for me to make it easier for me to have kids? There's absolutely no intrinsic reason that they should.

 

Most likely when you had this particular discussion with your relatives, it was people who were desirous of the availability of maternity/paternity leave and complaining about not having it. So that would be their perspective.

 

If you were talking with a senior citizen with a fixed income, you might get a different perspective.

 

More public benefits means more taxes.

[NoLongerSad]

By the way since no one has done so I will post the governing law on this in the U.S. (There may be more available in different states, but this is the minimum.)

 

 

Family and Medical Leave Act

Overview

The FMLA entitles eligible employees of covered employers to take unpaid, job-protected leave for specified family and medical reasons with continuation of group health insurance coverage under the same terms and conditions as if the employee had not taken leave. Eligible employees are entitled to:

 

• Twelve workweeks of leave in a 12-month period for:
  
  • the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth;
    
  • the placement with the employee of a child for adoption or foster care and to care for the newly placed child within one year of placement;
    
  • to care for the employee’s spouse, child, or parent who has a serious health condition;
    
  • a serious health condition that makes the employee unable to perform the essential functions of his or her job;
    
  • any qualifying exigency arising out of the fact that the employee’s spouse, son, daughter, or parent is a covered military member on “covered active duty;” or
    

 

• Twenty-six workweeks of leave during a single 12-month period to care for a covered servicemember with a serious injury or illness who is the spouse, son, daughter, parent, or next of kin to the employee (military caregiver leave).
  

[xxoo]

Are marriages and families in western Europe more successful than in the US? Honest question, I don't know the answer.

 

I do think that, in the big picture, the US values product over people. I believe this value is apparent from the top (government) to the bottom (individuals in marriages). American society is very much geared toward individualism, and that isn't supportive of families.

 

Of course, as an American, I sometimes perceive other societies lean too far in the other direction, at the expense of the individual. It is about balance, and no place is perfect

[NoLongerSad]

Hey, I'm all in favor of getting all the goodies and benefits I can, be it generous family leave; health care benefits; or anything else--as long as someone else pays for it.

 

Your think all our good buddies in Western Europe would agree to send some deutschemarks and pounds and Euros over here to support Americans who want a subsidized family leave opportunity?

 

Good show. Let me know how many Euros I will be getting and when they will be coming my way.

[TwinkletOes26]

The argument about taxes is a prime example of us thought process(and i am american lol)...I personally would not mind paying higher taxes for free healthcare or longer maternal leave...but im in the minority obviously. I feel everyone should have access to healthcare.

 

being healthy and living a full life is a HUMAN right IMO...but of course again my thoughts are in the minority..

[Sanman]

Most likely when you had this particular discussion with your relatives, it was people who were desirous of the availability of maternity/paternity leave and complaining about not having it. So that would be their perspective.

 

If you were talking with a senior citizen with a fixed income, you might get a different perspective.

 

More public benefits means more taxes.

 

Actually, these were Europeans who were quite thankful. My cousin left a job with a U.S. company for an English company that was more understanding of time off and family obligations. His wife is just coming off 9 months of paid maternity leave. As for seniors, their parents are quite happy they have the time off and are seniors. There will always be trade-offs and those that are unhappy with those trade-offs. I am just curious if, perhaps, the choices this country makes contribute to the high divorce rate and breakdown of the American family.

[pookster72]

The majority of Americans don't exactly choose their work hours, we're forced into them if we want to have jobs and be able to pay for our health insurance. In addition, America is in the middle of a baby boom partly fostered by lack of sexual education in schools and difficulty in obtaining birth control. Minimum population growth does not seem to be on the agenda here, although it should be.

 

I miss the European work schedule tremendously. It's much more of a struggle here to get any time off for quality of life, and it can wear you down.

 

Maternity leave was not an issue for me as I chose to scale way back on my personal clients when I had my son and managed my own schedule working from home. My husband managed to take two weeks off to stay home and bond with the baby--far more than most men get in practical terms. Although he could legally take six weeks paternity leave, that simply wasn't workable with his career. I had a c-section and wasn't even able to walk yet when he had to go back to the office.

what? the us birth rate was at a record low in 2010

[shadowofman]

IMO, we pay enough taxes in America to get all the entitlements that Europeans get. Unfortunately, our congress gives all that money away to multinational corporations instead of providing adequate services. This can be in the form of tax breaks or in actual contracts. General Electric actually made money in the form of international tax returns. $1.1 billion.

 

These are the organizations which are the biggest lobbies for war. They have a huge stake in media to shape public opinion. They are your overlords.

[Crusoe]

Are marriages and families in western Europe more successful than in the US? Honest question, I don't know the answer.

 

 

I can only speak for the UK, but no I don't think marriage is any more successful over here. Nearly every person I know under the age of 45 is either divorced or never married.

 

We are sitting on a time bomb over here. All those short working hours and benefits have to be paid for sometime, and that time is now. Instead of making hay while the sun shone, Europe has been having a party. It got drunk, took it's eye off the ball, forgot what is important, spunked it's money on items of luxury and is going to have a very long hangover.

[zengirl]

It's kind of hard to justify major, additional government benefits at a time when U.S. unemployment is close to 10% and we are already running yearly deficits in the trillions of $$$.

 

We had surpluses, and nobody wanted to justify it then either. No worries with justifying wars that costs billions more. This argument doesn't go to the heart of the reason such social services are provided, which is very simply: greed, from a very small percentage. Almost every fully industrialized country in the world, richer and poorer (what you'd consider "1st" world perhaps), offers better benefits, all around, than the U.S. Much better. Even as a non-citizen, I'd be entitled to a paid maternity leave in many of the countries I've worked/lived in.

 

By the way since no one has done so I will post the governing law on this in the U.S. (There may be more available in different states, but this is the minimum.)

 

 

Family and Medical Leave Act

Overview

The FMLA entitles eligible employees of covered employers to take unpaid, job-protected leave for specified family and medical reasons with continuation of group health insurance coverage under the same terms and conditions as if the employee had not taken leave. Eligible employees are entitled to:

 

• Twelve workweeks of leave in a 12-month period for:
  
  • the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth;
    
  • the placement with the employee of a child for adoption or foster care and to care for the newly placed child within one year of placement;
    
  • to care for the employee’s spouse, child, or parent who has a serious health condition;
    
  • a serious health condition that makes the employee unable to perform the essential functions of his or her job;
    
  • any qualifying exigency arising out of the fact that the employee’s spouse, son, daughter, or parent is a covered military member on “covered active duty;” or
    

• Twenty-six workweeks of leave during a single 12-month period to care for a covered servicemember with a serious injury or illness who is the spouse, son, daughter, parent, or next of kin to the employee (military caregiver leave).
  

 

It's kind of crazy you get more time for a family member who's ill than an infant. Even just being guaranteed your job 26 weeks (that's 6 months, more reasonable) later would be helpful to a lot of women. I think companies should have to hold your job for a year; there's no real cost in doing so---they hire someone on a temp contract, and you come back a year later. That would help some women as well.

 

 

IMO, we pay enough taxes in America to get all the entitlements that Europeans get. Unfortunately, our congress gives all that money away to multinational corporations instead of providing adequate services. This can be in the form of tax breaks or in actual contracts. General Electric actually made money in the form of international tax returns. $1.1 billion.

 

These are the organizations which are the biggest lobbies for war. They have a huge stake in media to shape public opinion. They are your overlords.

 

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

[Stung]

what? the us birth rate was at a record low in 2010

 

Meant to say, the US is coming off of a baby boom. The birth rates in 2006 and 2007 were a record high, the highest since the most-noted baby boom of the 1950s. It was more officially dubbed a baby boomlet, since the numbers started to drop with the recession.

[sweetjasmine]

It's kind of crazy you get more time for a family member who's ill than an infant.

 

Not really. Look at it this way. Most households are now double-income, and they rely on both incomes to keep their heads above water. If your spouse gets seriously ill and you also need to leave your job, what happens to your financial situation? With a baby, you have a few months to anticipate the changes and figure out solutions to potential financial problems, and you can also rely on your spouse's income to remain while you're off work. When a spouse or family member who was pulling in an income for the family gets ill and can no longer work, it's a double whammy.

 

A child's serious illness would be a little less problematic, but could easily be enough to sink a family these days. If your child is diagnosed with cancer and you were bringing in 50% of the household income, that'll vanish if you need to stay home and take care of your child and your paid leave runs out. Big problem.

 

And the assumption is that a pregnancy/birth is planned, so people go into it with open eyes, knowing what their benefits will be. You can't really predict serious injury/illness and you don't choose those things.

[lonelyandfrustrated]

Not really. Look at it this way. Most households are now double-income, and they rely on both incomes to keep their heads above water.

 

This is, imho, the problem. Americans demand a lifestyle above their means. "Enough" is never enough in the US. A family of four can live just fine on $40k a year, but they WANT to live on $80k, so both parents work and strangers raise the kids in daycare. So Mommy can have a big SUV and Daddy can have a boat and so they can afford to pay someone to do the things they should be doing themselves. Americans work themselves to death so they can be lazy, lol.

[Stung]

I don't know where you live but in my area a family of four can only live on 40K per year with govt subsidies and some seriously tightened belts, and 80K isn't exactly going to keep you in boats.

[zengirl]

This is, imho, the problem. Americans demand a lifestyle above their means. "Enough" is never enough in the US. A family of four can live just fine on $40k a year, but they WANT to live on $80k, so both parents work and strangers raise the kids in daycare. So Mommy can have a big SUV and Daddy can have a boat and so they can afford to pay someone to do the things they should be doing themselves. Americans work themselves to death so they can be lazy, lol.

 

While I think a couple could possibly live on 40K (that's about what I make, and I'm a "poor teacher," though I do just fine as a individual with no debt) for a bit, if they had no debt, I think adding kids to the mix would make it pretty darn tight. Even 80K isn't getting you SUVs and boats if you're serious about staying out of debt, and I live in the low-cost South. I cannot imagine in Cali or the NE.

[shadowofman]

OMG! $40,000 is borderline rich in my opinion. My household has two full time workers and we make that much collectively. Luckily no kids!

[xxoo]

OMG! $40,000 is borderline rich in my opinion. My household has two full time workers and we make that much collectively. Luckily no kids!

 

Health insurance can be the one factor that makes 40k livable or unlivable with kids. When we had our first years ago, our "employee contribution" for medical insurance jumped way, way up. It isn't uncommon for a company to expect a ft employee to contribute $500-1000/month toward health insurance for a family. 40k doesn't go nearly as far when the family is spending upwards of 10k a year on health insurance and expenses.

 

But, personally, I do believe that people in my community have a skewed perception of "basics". Basics have become things like: 2 cars, bedroom for each child, 2 car garage, video game systems and games, flat screen tv, cell phones for everyone, etc. We live without a lot of that, happily, on a modest income.

[hotgurl]

While I think a couple could possibly live on 40K (that's about what I make, and I'm a "poor teacher," though I do just fine as a individual with no debt) for a bit, if they had no debt, I think adding kids to the mix would make it pretty darn tight. Even 80K isn't getting you SUVs and boats if you're serious about staying out of debt, and I live in the low-cost South. I cannot imagine in Cali or the NE.

 

no ****. I live in NE and we make 70k a year. We are comfortable but there sure aren't any boats or fancy vacations. Housing costs here are high so is food costs heating for 6 months a year not to mention insurance premuims oh and college in three years.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

The argument about taxes is a prime example of us thought process(and i am american lol)...I personally would not mind paying higher taxes for free healthcare or longer maternal leave...but im in the minority obviously. I feel everyone should have access to healthcare.

 

being healthy and living a full life is a HUMAN right IMO...but of course again my thoughts are in the minority..

 

 

I would agree with this statement! This is how Canada works. Yes we have a whole lot of taxes...but we are completely covered! Our maternity leave is now 12 months PAID! When I had my kid it was only 6 months..but still paid.

 

In either case..I think Americans are getting the short end of the stick on this...as you all are paying taxes either way. I also think gun laws there are ludicrous...but thats another thread! LOL