NC and being cyberstalked my BW

[whichwayisup]

He has lied a lot in the past. But not to me.

 

If you believe this, you're in deep trouble.

 

Good luck with your MM. I actually hope he chooses you. His wife needs to rid of this serial cheater, liar scumbag and she'll be much happier without him.

[artemis-love]

OP, I am getting the idea from your posts that you, too are involved in an "unhealthy codependent relationship" with the man.

 

I admit that I am.

 

His wife's problems, her behavior, and their relationship is actually none of your business.

She kind of makes it my business when she visits me so often.

 

Too bad for her that she is wasting her time and energy "stalking" your website - I don't see what impact that has upon you, since she is in no way harassing you personally.

 

Since when is making a person feel watched not harassment?

 

You said that during this period of NC, he is supposed to choose?

 

Will you accept him if he chooses you?

I don't know. I love this man dearly, but I'm not sure that I want to be enmeshed with someone who has THAT much emotional work to do for himself...and deal with an ex-spouse who is even worse.

 

We'll have to see what kind of progress he makes in his own therapy and whether he does the work to truly earn back my trust. I won't be with someone I don't trust and right now, I don't trust him. (I trust him in terms of fidelity but I don't trust him in terms of care of my emotions.)

 

What is YOUR work during this period of NC? It seems like you have decided that it's to remain as emotionally enmeshed as possible. Maybe you should try to disentangle yourself from this man and his wife during this time, and see what your life could look like without them.

 

I have done my best to do this. I do not engage in any unnecessary conversation with him. It's been a process of ebbs and flows. I am much stronger in the early part of the week after a weekend then in the later part of the week when I have had to deal with him. He constantly does fishing expeditions and I'm not always able to conceal what I'm feeling from coming through in my voice. And he's very, very good at detecting that.

 

I never said I was perfect. I'm doing my best to NOT care what he does. But I do care so it's pretty hard to lie to yourself. That's the work I'm doing.

[whichwayisup]

He's a serial CHEATER, you trust him with fidelity but don't trust him to look after you on an emotional level, hurting you.

 

I"m telling you, if you end up with this guy he WILL cheat on you in the future.

 

He's a broken man inside, he needs to be ALONE after (if he does) he divorces. He needs to be in counselling and get rid of his cheating habits, and fix himself. If you go to him right after he's D'd, you get a broken man who will eventually cheat on you. He may tell you he won't, but he will.

 

People don't change unless they truly want to and are willing to do everything necessary to get help, counselling and work their asses off to be a better person.

[Owl]

For how long? A year? 10 years? A lifetime? At what point is there a statue of limitations. I know that her behavior never changed even after he had proven to be faithful for 10 years after his first unfaithful encounter. Those behaviors were the same from her d-day with him 10 years ago, up until the time he and I started our affair. And I KNOW he was faithful to her. But under the microscope of suspicion all the time is not a comfortable place to be. It does not build trust. It actually does the opposite.

 

Assuming that their marriage properly recovered from his first affair. Not likely, given all that you've described. It doesn't sound as if either of them had the coping/communication skills needed to work through the issues that led to and developed from his first affair.

 

As far as the "statute of limitations"...well, to a large degree that's on him. On how well he demonstrates/communicates changes to prevent an affair from happening again. If she never got that message, then she never rebuild security in her marriage.

 

 

Again for how long? Forever? If I don't trust my partner, I end the relationship. PERIOD.

 

That would be the rational thing to do, no? But, then again, it goes back on him too. If he didn't have a happy relationship for 10 years and did nothing about it...it spells dysfunction on his part as well, no?

 

And most of us SAY that "If (this), then (I do this)"...but as I said before, you don't know if you're not there.

 

Most people stay in a situation until the pain finally grows intolerable, and then they change. Apparently the pain didn't overcome the benefits for either of them.

 

I HAVE been there. I chose to believe in my partner and give him the chance to trust again. You can't build emotionally ... if you don't chose to trust. It just can't happen because you have walls up that prevent it from happening. And it worked. We rebuilt trust. When I finally ended my relationship with this person, it wasn't because of jealousy, fear, suspicion. Is was for reasons completely unrelated.

 

You're absolutely right. Trust has to be rebuilt...it has to be earned. But seriously, the communication issues also have to be dealt with, and recovering a marriage from infidelity typically takes years of hard work...which it doesn't sound to me as if either had put that effort into this marriage.

 

I don't believe that they ever recovered their marriage from his first affair.

 

They set the stage and both of them have learned some really poor relationship skills...no doubt about that. But you're willing to look past his, and focus on hers. You really need to bear in mind that he's going to bring his issues into your relationship with him, unless some SERIOUS relationship counseling takes place up front with the two of ya'll.

 

Yes, it is surprising that someone would behave this way for over 10 years. It spells serious psychological issues.

 

That could be...but the question also comes in...where did those issues come from?

 

I'm suspecting never truly recovering their marriage relationship in the first place.

 

Which also would tell me that he's carrying a lot too.

 

As far as her "stalking"...I don't know what your experience with being cheated on was, but I can tell you that for most, it's one of the singly most devestating emotional traumas you can face. That's from both personal experience, and from a long time reading/posting/learning on the subject.

 

My real caution for you would be to stop focusing on her and her actions...and start worrying about what baggage HE is gonna bring if he does continue a relationship with you.

 

I believe that his problems are going to come with him into any new relationship he starts, unless he gets them addressed before hand.

 

He's got a history of cheating...a long term one.

 

That never bodes well for a relationship.

[artemis-love]

People don't change unless they truly want to and are willing to do everything necessary to get help, counselling and work their asses off to be a better person.

 

That IS what he is doing, getting a lot of help. And, I think it was the relationship, not the person. He never cheated on any other relationship other than with her. I believe it is that he never really wanted to BE with her but for a lot of reasons that I can't disclose he ended up with her.

[artemis-love]

Assuming that their marriage properly recovered from his first affair. Not likely, given all that you've described. It doesn't sound as if either of them had the coping/communication skills needed to work through the issues that led to and developed from his first affair.

 

Yes. I believe this is the case. Though coping and communication is up to two people. Weird dynamics can take place within a context. Him and I had much better communication so while I do know he has a lot of communication work he needs to do, part of the lack of skills came from his inability COMBINED with her inability. I'm more of a nip something in the bud kind of person which led to him and I having better communication with each other. I always create the space that he could tell me news that I didn't like without going off the deep end. And that does make a difference, especially to people who fear open-communication.

 

If she never got that message, then she never rebuild security in her marriage.

I agree that it was BOTH their problem. When he did communicate they had lost their connection, she told him that wasn't true. So here lies some of the problem. When your partner says they have lost their connection with you, you better stand up and listen, not tell them it isn't true.

 

That would be the rational thing to do, no? But, then again, it goes back on him too. If he didn't have a happy relationship for 10 years and did nothing about it...it spells dysfunction on his part as well, no?

I'm not discounting that at all. It takes two though. He's finally come to a place where he wants to deal with his dysfunction head on. And I know he is because he told me about his sessions before we began NC.

 

Most people stay in a situation until the pain finally grows intolerable, and then they change. Apparently the pain didn't overcome the benefits for either of them.

 

The first step is acknowledging you aren't happy. He didn't acknowledge it at first. He talked about situations that would make many people angry or upset without any iota of feeling at all. It was very weird. I suspect both of them do that. It's a coping mechanism to not look at problems and deal with them. Because dealing with them can be very painful.

 

But seriously, the communication issues also have to be dealt with, and recovering a marriage from infidelity typically takes years of hard work...which it doesn't sound to me as if either had put that effort into this marriage.

I know he did, because as his friend, years before, I witnessed him try and try over an again. He did some of the most romantic things I have ever witnessed. I helped him buy her jewelry. She was say thanks and never wear it. She never went out of her way for him to do anything. One day he shared that with me and asked me what he was doing wrong, and what he needed to do. I didn't know what to say because that is not how I would have responded to his gestures. I tried many times to find a reason for her behavior and excuse it because I don't make judgement on people quickly, especially from 2nd hand information. But it seemed clear to me that she felt he needed to do penance for the rest of his life.

 

They set the stage and both of them have learned some really poor relationship skills...no doubt about that. But you're willing to look past his, and focus on hers. You really need to bear in mind that he's going to bring his issues into your relationship with him, unless some SERIOUS relationship counseling takes place up front with the two of ya'll.

 

I do not overlook his deficiencies, now that I'm aware of them. It took a lot of work on my part to even see what he was alluding to. I KNOW we will have to do some sort of counselling to move on from this, but there is no point in speculating about the future that may likely never happen. He's not stalking me right now, she is.

 

That could be...but the question also comes in...where did those issues come from?

 

They may have been present before his affair too. Given the depth of these issues, I think it was. I know what his prematurity issues were, and they were serious. So I can imagine that she was just as deeply damage coming into it too.

 

I'm suspecting never truly recovering their marriage relationship in the first place.

 

Which also would tell me that he's carrying a lot too.

 

I agree with this. So does he.

 

As far as her "stalking"...I don't know what your experience with being cheated on was, but I can tell you that for most, it's one of the singly most devastating emotional traumas you can face. That's from both personal experience, and from a long time reading/posting/learning on the subject.

 

I've HAVE been cheated on by a long term partner. And I've been the OW thrown under the bus. Believe me when I tell you, neither trumps the other in terms of emotional devastation. The betrayal I feel as an OW who has been thrown under the bus, so to speak is equally as damaging.

 

My real caution for you would be to stop focusing on her and her actions...and start worrying about what baggage HE is gonna bring if he does continue a relationship with you.

 

I worry about that all the time. But I shouldn't worry about that because we aren't IN a relationship.

 

He's got a history of cheating...a long term one.

ON HER, not on everyone.

 

If you were in a relationship that was abusive, that you didn't really want to be in, but were too weak emotionally to get out of it, you might cheat. That doesn't make you an unfaithful person by nature. I don't believe in "once a cheater always a cheater... I know more than a few married couples in their 2nd marriages who started them as affairs. They have never cheated on their current spouses because they were in the RIGHT relationship.

[Owl]

If you were in a relationship that was abusive, that you didn't really want to be in, but were too weak emotionally to get out of it, you might cheat. That doesn't make you an unfaithful person by nature. I don't believe in "once a cheater always a cheater... I know more than a few married couples in their 2nd marriages who started them as affairs. They have never cheated on their current spouses because they were in the RIGHT relationship.

 

I would agree. I don't believe "once a cheater, always a cheater". I DO believe however that "twice a cheater, always a cheater".

 

Twice shows a behavior, not a single instance of poor judgement and bad boundaries.

 

I probably can't add much more to this thread, other than reiterating the point that she's not "stalking", but keeping track of a situation that she (rightfully) perceives as a threat to her marriage, and to her personal well-being. If she's taken no overt action or communication with you, there's probably little to nothing you can do about it.

[artemis-love]

I don't agree that twice proves that it is the person when the conditions that caused the original cheating remain unchanged. (Same person, same relationship, same unresolved issues.) It would be more of a smoking gun if he had cheated on multiple partners.

 

I probably can't add much more to this thread, other than reiterating the point that she's not "stalking", but keeping track of a situation that she (rightfully) perceives as a threat to her marriage, and to her personal well-being. If she's taken no overt action or communication with you, there's probably little to nothing you can do about it.

 

For how long? She's been doing this for more than 8 months. How long is it reasonable to expect her to get a grip and to stop watching me, and leave me alone. She emailed me directly a few weeks ago with messages and photos that were meant to provoke me. (I did not respond to her but did mention that she did this to him. I said it was inappropriate for her to contact me and try to pull me back into something I'm no longer a part of.)

[greengoddess]

 

 

 

 

I know he did, because as his friend, years before, I witnessed him try and try over an again. He did some of the most romantic things I have ever witnessed. I helped him buy her jewelry. She was say thanks and never wear it. She never went out of her way for him to do anything. One day he shared that with me and asked me what he was doing wrong, and what he needed to do. I didn't know what to say because that is not how I would have responded to his gestures. I tried many times to find a reason for her behavior and excuse it because I don't make judgement on people quickly, especially from 2nd hand information. But it seemed clear to me that she felt he needed to do penance for the rest of his life.

 

 

 

 

 

I've HAVE been cheated on by a long term partner. And I've been the OW thrown under the bus. Believe me when I tell you, neither trumps the other in terms of emotional devastation. The betrayal I feel as an OW who has been thrown under the bus, so to speak is equally as damaging.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

seriously shaking my head here. He was having an emotional affair with YOU while pretending to woo his wife. His wife is not stupid. She probably knew he was out galavanting with you to buy her jewelry. Seriously that is so wrong on so many levels. You actually have yourself convinced that she didn't appreciate him because she didn't swoon over jewelery bought for her with YOUR help. It probably was not even her stlye and more to yours making her even more miserable over your emotional affair.

 

And um no sorry pain of the other woman does not even compare because the ow went into the relationship with her eyes wide open. WIDE OPEN while the wife was clueless.

 

He cheated on her in the past and saw all the same behaviors happening with you and him 3 years before the affair even began. You ate it right up that she was psycho jealous when you were WHY she was jealous. He fed you all the right lines to feel awful for him being stup with this abusive crazy woman when it was he that was abusive and crazy making.

[greengoddess]

I just am shocked you went out with him to pick jewelry for her. Do you not see how wrong that is? Did she know you were with him? God the jewelry probably made her sick knowing in her gut he was out "playing" while buying it.

[greengoddess]

I believe it is that he never really wanted to BE with her but for a lot of reasons that I can't disclose he ended up with her.

 

This is common cheater speak. I never wanted to marry her...VERY COMMON.

[Spices]

It's more the MM's fault than anything. If she was that "crazy", he should have left her long ago, rather than cheat on her.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Spices

[Owl]

For how long? She's been doing this for more than 8 months. How long is it reasonable to expect her to get a grip and to stop watching me, and leave me alone. She emailed me directly a few weeks ago with messages and photos that were meant to provoke me. (I did not respond to her but did mention that she did this to him. I said it was inappropriate for her to contact me and try to pull me back into something I'm no longer a part of.)

 

For as long as she feels that you're still a threat to her marriage, her family, to her well-being.

 

Which, at this point you still are. You've admitted yourself you're waiting for her H to choose.

 

Why would you expect her to stop now, when you personally KNOW that the relationship between you and her H poses a critical threat to her marriage?

 

I don't understand why you struggle with this. Put yourself in her shoes. From her perspective...you're the enemy, and she's gathering intel in case you choose to strike (from her perspective) again.

 

She's not trying to pull you back into a relationship with him...she's trying to identify territory and 'ward you off' by sending those emails and such.

 

I realize that you don't feel like you're the "cause"...and you're not, entirely. But you're a contributing factor. She's keeping tabs on him, and she's keeping what tabs she can on you...so that she's got some kind of warning/indicator when she may again be betrayed and devestated.

 

She's keeping her enemy close.

 

Why do you feel that she's wrong for doing so? It's uncomfortable for you...but the sheer emotional devestation she's been going through as a result of her H's affair with you is in an entirely different league of it's own by comparison.

[artemis-love]

She probably knew he was out galavanting with you to buy her jewelry. You actually have yourself convinced that she didn't appreciate him because she didn't swoon over jewelery bought for her with YOUR help.

 

She didn't know I went with him. And I didn't really add any value to it because what was purchased was not what I would have purchased. So you are making a lot of assumptions here.

 

WIDE OPEN while the wife was clueless.

Don't ever presume to be in someone else's head and know how they feel. You don't know what transpired between us and what was promised and the lengths went to, to prove to me that it was going to happen. I've been through both experiences so I can weigh what both feel like. Have you experienced both sides? If you haven't you don't have personal experience from whence to speak.

 

This is common cheater speak. I never wanted to marry her...VERY COMMON.

 

He didn't say that. I say this after I have processed hundreds of pieces of information that he has told me over the years. You aren't privy to the past information in his life that would make this assessment valid. He described his former relationships what they were like, WHY he got into them. Most, he admits he got into for reasons other than love and attraction and more about not wanting to be on the receiving end of being dumped.

 

I've discussed his issues extensively in therapy and my therapist also believes that it is unlikely that he married her for any of the right reasons that people marry. (She met him and had a conversation with him too. He told her of his childhood experiences.)

 

Your responses seem colored by your own experience.

[artemis-love]

It's more the MM's fault than anything. If she was that "crazy", he should have left her long ago, rather than cheat on her.

 

From someone who has been in a relationship that isn't working, it can often take years to come to the conclusion that the issues cannot be corrected. And even once you do that reflection and own it, it still can be quite a journey to actually do the leaving. It took me 3-4 years to get a divorce after I was 150% sure that it was necessary.

 

If the relationship is emotionally abusive where self-esteem is involved, control, degrading, gas-lighting etc, then it can be even harder.

[greengoddess]

She didn't know I went with him. And I didn't really add any value to it because what was purchased was not what I would have purchased. So you are making a lot of assumptions here.

 

 

 

EXACTLY he LIED to her when he went out to purchase the jewelry. She KNEW he was lying.

[donnamaybe]

He has been severely emotionally abused by the BW. Not that he said this to me. This is just something I know from talking with him and hearing the stuff he puts up with it.

So this information about his W isn't from things he said to you, just something you know from TALKING with him and HEARING? Um, isn't that the same thing?

[donnamaybe]

This isn't the first time he had an affair but this is the first time he had an affair of the heart.

Is that yet another thing he "told" you?

 

Oh, wow. I'm sorry, but these people LIE! I'm not saying you aren't worthy of someone falling in love with you, but cheaters LIE all the time, every day!

[donnamaybe]

I know about this behavior because he told me about it

Uh huh. That's how you "know."

[donnamaybe]

This can also be considered grooming. He had an interest in you and made sure to knock his marriage to you everytime he could to groom you for an affair with him.

That's how they do it, for sure. They have to generate some sort of sympathy first.

[artemis-love]

EXACTLY he LIED to her when he went out to purchase the jewelry. She KNEW he was lying.

 

You're really reaching here. There is no way in hell she knew. At that moment in our friendship were really JUST FRIENDS. I have some idea when the emotional affair began. At this moment, it had NOT begun and did not begin for two years after that. You are stretching really hard here. She did not know.

 

And btw... what makes you think the OW is without feelings?

 

In my case (and in other people's cases), my MM made promises to have a future with me. He discussed co-parenting and growing old together. He guaranteed to me that the divorce would happen and that I just needed to be patient. He even took my kid to an amusement park with his own children as a sign of faith that he was dead serious about his intentions.

 

He believed his own promises so why wouldn't I? He wanted to protect her from hurt as much as he could which is part of the reason why she found out.. .because it dragged out too long. His wife was supposed to never find out about us and he wanted to gracefully get out of the marriage with as much of her dignity intact. Her finding out made all the progress he made in discussing the "issues" between them go backwards.

 

Do you think OW in general have no heart? Do you think they get involved in these things out of malice? Don't you think they are just like everyone else, looking for love, looking for a connection? Even if it is misplaced? Knowing the person is involved is still attached to someone can be somewhat irrelevant when you don't have good boundaries, and, when you sincerely believe in your heart of hearts that your MM knows what he is doing and it will all turn out for the best for everyone.

 

How is having all of your dreams of a future with someone, that bubble burst any different than the hurt a betrayed spouse has? Seriously. Aren't the feelings exactly the same? The sleepless nights, the weight loss? The endless bouts of crying? Seriously. How is that experience any different?

 

I can tell you. The OW gets to experience these feelings alone since for the most part, the MM cowers back to his wife where they at least get to deal with these feelings together. And in many cases, she gets the brunt of society scorn when she isn't the one in a committed relationship, the MM is.

[artemis-love]

So this information about his W isn't from things he said to you, just something you know from TALKING with him and HEARING? Um, isn't that the same thing?

 

It's pretty simple. He stated facts, and I put those facts together and interpreted them.

 

Oh, wow. I'm sorry, but these people LIE! I'm not saying you aren't worthy of someone falling in love with you, but cheaters LIE all the time, every day!

 

Not everyone has shallow relationships. I believe him. She also (when she confronted me) confirmed that the other relationships were flings. (as she implied that mine was with him.)

 

He never knocked his marriage. He actually maintained that he was happier than a clam while at the same time, telling me about terrible marriage busters. He didn't even have enough insight to register that the things he had to deal with was NOT ok. The things he said to me were akin to someone telling me that their husband beats them but they don't mind because they deserved it because they provoked them. The only difference is they were verbal, not physical. I don't think he lied about those things.

 

Not every MM cheater is a player which is what some of you continue to imply. Some are. Perhaps it makes bs sleep better or night. But it's an emotionally dishonest interpretation. Come to think about it, that's how he ended up in this predicament. Two lost souls living together being emotionally dishonest with themselves and each other. No wonder they never got through these issues. How could you when the real person is never present?

 

Some people really are generally confused and lost human beings without premeditated contempt or manipulation.

[StarChick]

Pot, meet kettle.

[greengoddess]

You're really reaching here. There is no way in hell she knew. At that moment in our friendship were really JUST FRIENDS. I have some idea when the emotional affair began. At this moment, it had NOT begun and did not begin for two years after that. You are stretching really hard here. She did not know.

 

.

Then why were you out with him without his wife knowing, especially why would you say there is NO WAY his wife knew? How do you know this if you were out as friends? Why wouldn't he tell her hey I'm shopping with our friend so and so. Oh I KNOW because he was in the habit of lying to his wife especially when it came to inappropriate relationships with women. 2 years before your affair began he was already lying to her about spending time with you..

[greengoddess]

You're really reaching here. There is no way in hell she knew. At that moment in our friendship were really JUST FRIENDS. I have some idea when the emotional affair began. At this moment, it had NOT begun and did not begin for two years after that. You are stretching really hard here. She did not know.

 

And btw... what makes you think the OW is without feelings?

 

In my case (and in other people's cases), my MM made promises to have a future with me. He discussed co-parenting and growing old together. He guaranteed to me that the divorce would happen and that I just needed to be patient. He even took my kid to an amusement park with his own children as a sign of faith that he was dead serious about his intentions.

 

He believed his own promises so why wouldn't I? He wanted to protect her from hurt as much as he could which is part of the reason why she found out.. .because it dragged out too long. His wife was supposed to never find out about us and he wanted to gracefully get out of the marriage with as much of her dignity intact. Her finding out made all the progress he made in discussing the "issues" between them go backwards.

 

Do you think OW in general have no heart? Do you think they get involved in these things out of malice? Don't you think they are just like everyone else, looking for love, looking for a connection? Even if it is misplaced? Knowing the person is involved is still attached to someone can be somewhat irrelevant when you don't have good boundaries, and, when you sincerely believe in your heart of hearts that your MM knows what he is doing and it will all turn out for the best for everyone.

 

How is having all of your dreams of a future with someone, that bubble burst any different than the hurt a betrayed spouse has? Seriously. Aren't the feelings exactly the same? The sleepless nights, the weight loss? The endless bouts of crying? Seriously. How is that experience any different?

 

I can tell you. The OW gets to experience these feelings alone since for the most part, the MM cowers back to his wife where they at least get to deal with these feelings together. And in many cases, she gets the brunt of society scorn when she isn't the one in a committed relationship, the MM is.

 

You mean all those things he promised his wife first that he neglected to take back from his wife before telling you those same things?