maybe the worst part

[Ellin]

In my view........just because mm/mw may have real feelings of love for the AP is beside the point. What good does it do the AP if the only thing you've got is feelings and nothing of substance (actions) to back them up? We can argue all day and then some about if someone's feelings are real or not, but when all is said......it's doesn't mean squat unless the words are backed up with more than just fantasy or empty promises. Why the hell should ANYONE suffer for love when nothing is going to come of it except a lot of disrespect, pain, and loathing of yourself for allowing yourself to be a doormat?

If words of love are spoken.........then a person should damn well act accordingly and if they don't.......what is the point?

 

Of course you're right. I agree with that.

 

But some posters do tell others that they are not loved, just used and tricked, even though they have no way of knowing it - that's all. Because I believe it's wrong and mean.

[woinlove]

It's not a label, just an observation. This is how her last post "sounds".

 

Romeo and Juliet analogy does not pertain to this thread, but was my reaction to one of the myths perpetuated on LS about what "true love" is, which is often used as a veiled way of putting down the R of an OW with a MM.

 

But since you and Spark are so much in agreement about this issue, and also about what true love is or isn't, I assume that you both agree with the statement that a MM who cheats cannot possibly love his W. Right?

 

I'm not completely sure what you assume about my beliefs in "true love", so I'll clarify a bit. I think someone can truly love their W before and after cheating, but not during. True love to me involves more than a feeling (although lots of feeling is involved in love too). It involves a commitment. It involves actions, little and big, and, essentially every day.

 

Assuming you used the Romeo and Juliet example as love involving pain -- Yes, true love can involve pain. It hurts to see those we love in pain and it hurts to lose them from our lives, whether through death or choice. Sometimes we can hurt those we truly love, through stupidity, thoughtlessness, selfishness, ..., but if we keep doing it, then our love is lacking.

 

Not all people are capable of the same depths of love. For people who are capable of deep love and commitment, I think they will be happiest finding a life partner who is capable of the same. That is extremely unlikely to be someone who juggles an affair and a marriage.

[Ellin]

I agree with most of your post, but to say that a H loves his W perfectly before and after an A, but this stops just for the duration of the A is a peculiar (and very convenient) way of looking at it.

[Spark1111]

In my view........just because mm/mw may have real feelings of love for the AP is beside the point. What good does it do the AP if the only thing you've got is feelings and nothing of substance (actions) to back them up? We can argue all day and then some about if someone's feelings are real or not, but when all is said......it's doesn't mean squat unless the words are backed up with more than just fantasy or empty promises. Why the hell should ANYONE suffer for love when nothing is going to come of it except a lot of disrespect, pain, and loathing of yourself for allowing yourself to be a doormat?

If words of love are spoken.........then a person should damn well act accordingly and if they don't.......what is the point?

 

Which is exactly the point!

 

Love is a verb, an action. It should support, uplift, and inspire out loud.

 

It will occasionally cause you unintentional pain, but it should not make you feel insecure, fearful, a secret or unconfident.

 

OP....

[Spark1111]

OP...only you can decide when the negative outweighs the positive in this relationship.

[woinlove]

I agree with most of your post, but to say that a H loves his W perfectly before and after an A, but this stops just for the duration of the A is a peculiar (and very convenient) way of looking at it.

 

I didn't say "a H loves...", I said a H can love... I think some people who resort to affairs aren't capable of truly loving anyone, and they may or may not ever be capable of that.

 

Most people do love their spouse when they choose to marry, typically, as much as they can love anyone. For the spouse who strays, but is remorseful and recommits to the marriage, they may well love their spouse again as much as they are capable of. I was speaking of a possibility, perhaps a fairly common possibility, but not meant to capture all cases of men having affairs.

 

It is my opinion, that while someone is carrying on a secret affair, they cannot truly love their spouse. Others may disagree with that. Certainly, somewhere inside they may carry feelings which may once again come out into the open when they realize what they might lose. But, still, to me true love is not only feelings, but also commitment and actions and affairs are definitely not showing the commitment and action part of love.

 

As you can probably tell from my answer, I do not view true love as static. Perhaps there are some people who mature young and know enough to nurture true love every day once they find it. I think more are like myself, they know they have something special when they find it, they commit and nurture it, but sometimes take it for granted under the stress of work, obligations, young children, whatever, until they finally learn enough to know its true value, and then they rarely if ever forget again. If they are really, really lucky, their true love sticks with them, loving them, though all of this.

[AngeletteX]

But some posters do tell others that they are not loved, just used and tricked, even though they have no way of knowing it - that's all. Because I believe it's wrong and mean.

 

:bunny:^^^^^Two. Thumbs. Up.^^^^^:bunny:

[BB07]

Of course you're right. I agree with that.

 

But some posters do tell others that they are not loved, just used and tricked, even though they have no way of knowing it - that's all. Because I believe it's wrong and mean.

 

:bunny:^^^^^Two. Thumbs. Up.^^^^^:bunny:

 

It can go the other way also......some would say it's wrong and mean to tell a poster that they are loved when they clearly aren't, (well by most people's definitions of love.) Love = meaning you treat the person that you proclaim to love in a loving manner. Loving manner = not causing pain to another.

[jwi71]

But some posters do tell others that they are not loved, just used and tricked, even though they have no way of knowing it - that's all. Because I believe it's wrong and mean.

 

They aren't loved ENOUGH.

 

Not enough to leave.

Not enough to make real change.

Not enough to make the OW/OM the spouse.

Not enough to celebrate Christmas or Thanksgiving together.

 

Always...not enough.

 

And for some OW/OM..."not enough" is good enough. However, from most of the threads I read here...its not. Many are asking "how to deal" with that.

 

My answer: Don't. Find a man who loves you enough to GIVE you those.

 

Has nothing to do with it being right or wrong or mean. Although, by PARTICIPATING in HIDING this "true love" - the OW/OM in fact agrees its "wrong". Otherwise I would expect the OW/OM to NOT lie, cover-up or have "no one else to talk to". In fact, I would expect those OW/OM to proudly tell EVERYONE of this R - whether it be at work or church or school.

[half_ofa_heart]

They aren't loved ENOUGH.

 

Not enough to leave.

Not enough to make real change.

Not enough to make the OW/OM the spouse.

Not enough to celebrate Christmas or Thanksgiving together.

 

Always...not enough.

 

And for some OW/OM..."not enough" is good enough. However, from most of the threads I read here...its not. Many are asking "how to deal" with that.

 

My answer: Don't. Find a man who loves you enough to GIVE you those.

 

Has nothing to do with it being right or wrong or mean. Although, by PARTICIPATING in HIDING this "true love" - the OW/OM in fact agrees its "wrong". Otherwise I would expect the OW/OM to NOT lie, cover-up or have "no one else to talk to". In fact, I would expect those OW/OM to proudly tell EVERYONE of this R - whether it be at work or church or school.

 

I have to agree with ALL of this.

[BB07]

My nearly 3 year EA was the love story of the century No, really. I guess he loved me, in some sort of way. Mostly I think it was fantasy, with an underlying selfish need. I was the aspirin for his boring life and aching marriage.

 

Sure, he and his wife had a miserable relationship most of the time. But they STILL had a relationship. Yes, she was a serial cheater. Yes, I'm sure things were often tense and unpleasant in their home. I'm sure there were nights that he actually did sleep in the recliner. But he still chose to stay married to her, and to live with her, and to call her his wife, and their house his "home."

 

When she was sick, when her car broke down, he was there for her. When her friend died, he was there to drive her to the funeral, because "bless her heart," it was too dangerous for her to make that long drive alone.

 

When I had an emergency, sure, I could text him. Maybe I'd even be able to get in touch with him. Maybe he'd be able to sneak away, to be "by my side." But then he would always go home. I always came first in his beautiful words of love, but second in practical application.

 

Oh, sure, we were in constant contact. He called and texted me a million times a day. But my bed was still cold and empty at night, and most mornings, I watched the sun rise with my faithful dog.

 

He said he would always love me. Begged me to always love him. Begged me to not ever leave him. Said he couldn't stand the thought of another man touching me. All the while, he is going home to his wife. Sharing his life, his home, his bed with his wife. What the hell kind of love is that?

 

As Steelknife said, and I can relate so well, when his allotted time with me was up, he could leave, just walk away. Oh there were many professions of love, many promises of "one day," sometimes tears were shed. But he always left. What the hell kind of love is that?

 

I was faithful and true to him. I never lied to him. He said I was probably the only person in his life who didn't lie to him. I was loving and devoted. Every time he caught his wife with her MM, he would tell me, "It won't be long." And every time, he stayed with her. Still he stayed with her. What the hell kind of love for me was that?

 

Did he have ANY CLUE what the reality of my life was like? What it was like, loving him and longing for him, while he continued to choose to be with her? Where was the love in that? While he was enjoying his fantasy of "us," did he ever even consider the pain he was putting me through? I really fail to see the "love" in any of it.

 

Ladyblue, I'm sorry for the pain that you are going through but your post speaks to me and I think it can speak to a lot of OW who feel that the relationship is more pain that pleasure. Your post very eloquently illustrates the pain and reality of loving someone who only loves you back with pretty words and false promises. There is a powerful message in your last line because those who truly love us, would not hurt us this much. Pretty words don't make it so.

[Ladyblue]

in my view........just because mm/mw may have real feelings of love for the ap is beside the point. What good does it do the ap if the only thing you've got is feelings and nothing of substance (actions) to back them up? We can argue all day and then some about if someone's feelings are real or not, but when all is said......it's doesn't mean squat unless the words are backed up with more than just fantasy or empty promises. Why the hell should anyone suffer for love when nothing is going to come of it except a lot of disrespect, pain, and loathing of yourself for allowing yourself to be a doormat?

If words of love are spoken.........then a person should damn well act accordingly and if they don't.......what is the point?

 

yes! Yes! Yes! Hell, yes!!!! A hundred thousand times yes!!!!

 

this poster *gets* it!!!!!!!!!

 

thank you bb. You have said in just a few sentences what i have been trying to say in pouring out my heart for about 50-something posts now.

 

you totally get it. Thank you!!!!

[Ladyblue]

I didn't say "a H loves...", I said a H can love... I think some people who resort to affairs aren't capable of truly loving anyone, and they may or may not ever be capable of that.

 

Most people do love their spouse when they choose to marry, typically, as much as they can love anyone. For the spouse who strays, but is remorseful and recommits to the marriage, they may well love their spouse again as much as they are capable of. I was speaking of a possibility, perhaps a fairly common possibility, but not meant to capture all cases of men having affairs.

 

It is my opinion, that while someone is carrying on a secret affair, they cannot truly love their spouse.

 

My AP may not have loved his W very much, but apparently he loved her more than he loved ME!

 

Others may disagree with that. Certainly, somewhere inside they may carry feelings which may once again come out into the open when they realize what they might lose. But, still, to me true love is not only feelings, but also commitment and actions and affairs are definitely not showing the commitment and action part of love.

 

As you can probably tell from my answer, I do not view true love as static. Perhaps there are some people who mature young and know enough to nurture true love every day once they find it. I think more are like myself, they know they have something special when they find it, they commit and nurture it, but sometimes take it for granted under the stress of work, obligations, young children, whatever, until they finally learn enough to know its true value, and then they rarely if ever forget again. If they are really, really lucky, their true love sticks with them, loving them, though all of this.

 

Your post makes a lot of sense.

[Ladyblue]

They aren't loved ENOUGH.

 

Not enough to leave.

Not enough to make real change.

Not enough to make the OW/OM the spouse.

Not enough to celebrate Christmas or Thanksgiving together.

 

Always...not enough.

 

And for some OW/OM..."not enough" is good enough. However, from most of the threads I read here...its not. Many are asking "how to deal" with that.

 

My answer: Don't. Find a man who loves you enough to GIVE you those.

 

Has nothing to do with it being right or wrong or mean. Although, by PARTICIPATING in HIDING this "true love" - the OW/OM in fact agrees its "wrong". Otherwise I would expect the OW/OM to NOT lie, cover-up or have "no one else to talk to". In fact, I would expect those OW/OM to proudly tell EVERYONE of this R - whether it be at work or church or school.

 

YES!!! You also REALLY GET IT!

 

I spent three freakin' hard years of my life being "Not Enough." Oh, yes, there were wonderful incredible times, but it absolutely was NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE UP FOR THE PAIN OF FEELING LIKE I WAS NOT ENOUGH, OR HE WOULD HAVE CHOSEN ME INSTEAD OF STAYING IN THAT TRAIN WRECK OF A RELATIONSHIP HE CALLED HIS MARRIAGE.

 

For whatever reason, which I have accepted that I will never comprehend, THEIR MARRIAGE WAS ENOUGH. MY LOVE FOR HIM, AND HIS LOVE FOR ME, WAS NOT.

 

FOR EVERYONE ONE WHO THINKS AFFAIR LOVE IS GREAT, I'm happy for you. You can have my portion. In fact, I wish you all the affair love your heart and brain and body can stand.

 

For me, I'll "settle" for some of that inferior BS love, you know, the kind that almost always makes him always pick her, and go home to her at night.

[Ladyblue]

In my view........just because mm/mw may have real feelings of love for the AP is beside the point. What good does it do the AP if the only thing you've got is feelings and nothing of substance (actions) to back them up? We can argue all day and then some about if someone's feelings are real or not, but when all is said......it's doesn't mean squat unless the words are backed up with more than just fantasy or empty promises. Why the hell should ANYONE suffer for love when nothing is going to come of it except a lot of disrespect, pain, and loathing of yourself for allowing yourself to be a doormat?

If words of love are spoken.........then a person should damn well act accordingly and if they don't.......what is the point?

 

BB07, may I have permission to use part of your post as my signature?

[BB07]

BB07, may I have permission to use part of your post as my signature?

 

Be my guest.

[Owl]

I agree with most of your post, but to say that a H loves his W perfectly before and after an A, but this stops just for the duration of the A is a peculiar (and very convenient) way of looking at it.

 

I'll give you a phrase that someone mentioned to me early on when we were debating on trying to reconcile or not after my wife's EA.

 

I got the standard "ILYBNILWY" type comment.

 

And someone told me that from their experience...the difference between "love" and "in love" is the relationship that you're actively investing in at the time.

 

Before the A...MM/MW are investing in the marriage to some degree.

 

During the A...MM/MW are investing in the affair, and neglecting their marriage.

 

After the A...MM once again invest in their marriage, potentially with far more effort/enthusiasm than they were before the A.

 

I saw this pretty clearly before/during/after my wife's EA for sure. Now...granted...in the months leading up to the A she stopped investing. Before the 16+ years prior she'd absolutely been "in love" with me and investing in our relationship.

 

So if you stop and think about it...it makes sense.

 

You've heard the old Native American parable about having 2 wolves inside you...one good and one bad? And the grandson asks which one will win....his grandfather tells him..."The one you feed".

 

It applies to relationships too. The one that will thrive is the one that you feed.

 

The "feeling" of love depends on how much you put into it. Feed it, and it thrives. Starve it, and it begins to fade. Feed it again and it can come back.

 

If you understand HOW love is built, there's nothing "peculiar" or "convenient" in this.

[OWoman]

You've heard the old Native American parable about having 2 wolves inside you...one good and one bad? And the grandson asks which one will win....his grandfather tells him..."The one you feed".

 

It applies to relationships too. The one that will thrive is the one that you feed.

 

The "feeling" of love depends on how much you put into it. Feed it, and it thrives. Starve it, and it begins to fade. Feed it again and it can come back.

If you understand HOW love is built, there's nothing "peculiar" or "convenient" in this.

 

Owl, this only works if both parties are "feeding". If one is feeding but the other one is starving, it will still starve. I've seen many Rs that founder because only one person is doing anything to sustain the R. It doesn't help if a MP starts starving their A and feeding their M again, if the BS is still starving the M. The M can only survive if both parties feed it... the same as any R.

[Owl]

I'd agree...both need to be feeding the relationship.

 

But the context here was that one poster didn't seem to understand how the MM/MW could go from (or was skeptical that they could) loving/being in love with the BS, to having the affair, to being in love with the BS again.

 

My intent was to provide an explanation to that specifically.

 

But if you'd like to follow your line of thought as well, then I'd go ahead and add some following thought to it as well.

 

As far as 'feeding the love' from the BS side of things...

 

It's also entirely common that the BS has no idea of how/what their spouse is thinking/feeling up to the affair. Their first true indication of trouble comes when they start to suspect the affair itself.

 

Up to that point, they're operating under the assumption/belief/understanding that they're feeding that relatioinship sufficiently. And they may well be...or they may have gotten complacent and aren't doing all that the could/should. Either situation is relatively common. (So the WS is "in love" with their spouse, but feelings for their affair partner are rising and their feelings for their spouse are waning)

 

During the affair...there's little that a BS actually CAN do to 'feed the relationship'. They try...but given the WS's focus on the affair partner, their efforts are a limited success at best. (So the WS doesn't feel "in love" with their spouse, and "in love" with their affair partner).

 

After the affair, when/if they attempt reconciliation, both parties put a lot of effort into rebuilding/recovering (especially initially). So suddenly the WS feels like that love is coming back. The "in love" returns.

 

My hope is that this can kind of help Ellin (and others as needed) to understand why things tend to break down the way that they do...and how those feelings of love can wax and wane as focus on each relationship varies.

[Mimolicious]

Why do you post here?

 

If you don't like what you hear stay away!

 

I don't get the single bandwagon!

 

If you're single by a certain age and not married, you HAVE PROBLEMS!!!

 

I know because I divorced at a young age and ended up back in the dating pool.

 

Have you been in the dating pool recently M? I am guessing not or you'd understand where I am coming from.

 

OP ignore the idiots on your thread and follow your heart. What will be, will be.

 

GEL

 

GEL, honestly, I personally DGAF about what YOU have to say and last I checked Tony didn't die and left you in charge. So who TF are you to tell me what to do?

 

I AM NOT MARRIED, ACTUALLY DIVORCED, AND LOVE IT!!!!!!

 

WHY DO YOU POST HERE? Aren't you in La La land with your MM turned H. So questionable....

 

These "idiot's" as you call us, which btw the community increases by 1, must have forgotten to take their meds.

[Mimolicious]

If you're single by a certain age and not married, you HAVE PROBLEMS!!!

 

Anyone who is single by a certain age has problems? And pray tell, what is that "magical" age?

 

Honestly, this sounds like something great aunt Esmerelda would have said a hundred years ago! LOL! Yes, there was a time when people thought if you weren't engaged by the time you are 12 or 14 at the latest, and married by the time you're 15 or 16, you were doomed to be an old maid --- and that was the most dreaded fate that could befall a woman!

 

But since that time, women have gained the right to vote, own property, attend school, and even drive vehicles! And maybe the most amazing thing of all --- drum roll please --- use birth control!!!! Whoooaaaa! :bunny: :lmao::lmao:

 

I cant even believe that in the 21st century, a woman living in a progressive civilization would even make such a statement! This is not the 1850's. Getting married is not the "end-all be-all" Holy Grail of success. Getting married is not the pinnacle of accomplishment and achievement all women should strive for.

 

The bolded may be the most hilarious, ignorant, insulting, offensive, chauvanistic, backwoods statement I have read on LS yet. Did I say hilarious?

 

IMHO, if being married is all that critical to you, go to a matchmaker, EHarmony, a church singles group, the hardware store on Friday night, a good hair stylist --- but by all means, go to counseling.

 

OP ignore the idiots on your thread and follow your heart. What will be, will be.

 

Follow your heart? Again, hilarious! Sounds like something out of a Winnie the Pooh movie! Children follow their hearts.Fortunately, most adults realize the importance of using logic and reason in making important choices.

 

What will be, will be??? Uh, yeah. We are not the masters of our destiny. We have no control over what happens in our lives. Our conscious choices, decisions and plans don't have any impact whatsoever? We are perpetually the victims of fate.

 

GEL, I have to say at this point that your post sounds like something a 12 year old girl would write. If the OP is going to take your advice to ignore the idiots, he'd have to start with you.

 

(and because of posters like you, I feel I always have to tag myself as OW so I won't get bashed for being a bitter BS.)

 

The most hilarious part is ............ *DRUM ROLL* The bullshyte "If you're single by a certain age and not married, you HAVE PROBLEMS!!!".

 

It's a actually out of context. I am 33, divorced and not single. I call that #FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some people talk out of their arses and forget to take their meds. Ridiculous!!!!:lmao: Ah! This actually made my day. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

 

Then again this is coming from someone that suggest to wreck homes to obtain the piece of paper. Yeah that's very immature!

Classic!

 

 

NEXT!

[Mimolicious]

Well I guess someone who is insecure or immature might feel that way but anybody who has developed themself to a reasonable level of self-understanding would realise that they do not need to be with somebody to be complete or fulfilled or......

 

Most mature adults realise that the key in life is to be happy on their own and not actually needing to be with another.

 

 

Or needing someone else's another.