Have to Laugh.... Too obvious.... Yet one will never listen....

[xxoo]

As for it being tough to reach orgasm, I don't know how 20-30 minutes max is difficult, but then I am a man.... And doesn't the physical intimacy count for something?

 

Without my desire for physical intimacy, my H and I would have little sex. We have a LOT of sex because my desire for physical intimacy is very high. The desire for orgasm usually comes from the touch itself, and is not present before touch.

 

So I'd say, IME in a LTR, physical intimacy counts for a whole lot!

The other point I made about if a pill being available is still up for discussion, as I bet most women wouldn't care enough to take it (or to say it a better way, sales would no where near approaching that of viagra/cialis....).

 

The man with ED has desire but in unable to satisfy it. He has an "itch" he can not "scratch". He is personally uncomfortable with his function, and so is motivated to suffer embarrassment (dr visit) and take risks (side effects) to treat it.

 

A woman with low desire has no such unscratchable itch. She's personally comfortable. It is her partner who is uncomfortable. His discomfort has to outweigh her embarrassment and risks. Can you see how that is different from a man with ED who is personally uncomfortable?

[Honorable_Venerable]

Without my desire for physical intimacy, my H and I would have little sex. We have a LOT of sex because my desire for physical intimacy is very high. The desire for orgasm usually comes from the touch itself, and is not present before touch.

 

So I'd say, IME in a LTR, physical intimacy counts for a whole lot!

 

 

 

Based on this, in a number of cases, "Why don't you want to have sex?" is actually the WRONG question, and any man asking it in those circumstances has no hope of hitting the right answer, whether by design or accident.

 

The question is actually "Why don't you feel the need for physical intimacy in our relationship?" Not that it gives any guarantee of getting the right answer, but the chances of getting the right answer go up a bit with the right question!

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Based on this, in a number of cases, "Why don't you want to have sex?" is actually the WRONG question, and any man asking it in those circumstances has no hope of hitting the right answer, whether by design or accident.

 

The question is actually "Why don't you feel the need for physical intimacy in our relationship?" Not that it gives any guarantee of getting the right answer, but the chances of getting the right answer go up a bit with the right question!

 

But does physical intimacy mean sex???? C'mon we are going round and round and eluding the point.

 

As for viagra/cialis.... again we are playing with semantics..... We have agreed (or at least I have decided for all of you;)) that orgasms feel good. To say you have no "desire" for them makes little sense. To deprive one of them again seems just silly. To take a pill that increases desire and reminds you that oragsms are good doesn't seem a terrible propostion.... and oh yea you also know your spouse wants you to feel that way......

 

Really I'm getting tired of women explaining that really us men are too stoopid to get it (figuratively and in actuality)....

[xxoo]

But does physical intimacy mean sex???? C'mon we are going round and round and eluding the point.

 

No, physical intimacy, as I'm using the term, does not mean sex. It is the kind of touch that makes me feel so deeply cherished, but is very difficult to explain. I can't get enough of it. It is the falling into each other's arms every evening, and drinking in each other's warmth and smell, whether or not sex will follow.

 

As for viagra/cialis.... again we are playing with semantics..... We have agreed (or at least I have decided for all of you;)) that orgasms feel good. To say you have no "desire" for them makes little sense. To deprive one of them again seems just silly. To take a pill that increases desire and reminds you that oragsms are good doesn't seem a terrible propostion.... and oh yea you also know your spouse wants you to feel that way......

 

It makes little sense to you, but it makes sense to me. I have times when I don't desire an orgasm, or just have no desire to do the things that lead to orgasm. Honestly, when I'm not turned on, all the stuff involved in sex seem kind of unappealing But the intimacy described above is always appealing, and usually leads to feeling turned on....

 

Again, the pill comes down to motivation. It isn't semantics. The man very much WANTS an erection, so he takes the pill. What does the woman in this situation want? (not "what should she want" but "what does she want"). Women who what their drive back often see their dr about a bit of testosterone.

 

Really I'm getting tired of women explaining that really us men are too stoopid to get it (figuratively and in actuality)....

 

I think that's unfair. No one is calling men stupid. We're trying to help you understand the women's experience, as it is often different from the man's experience.

[giotto]

I finally got it!

[florence of suburbia]

Orgasms feel good. To say you have no "desire" for them makes little sense.

 

Chocolate cake tastes good too, but that doesn't mean I have the desire to get out the flour and sugar and eggs and mixer and bake one. Would the reward outweigh the work? Maybe I should just eat a handful of M&Ms.

 

I don't see why Mem's approach seems like a magic pill. Foreplay doesn't start in the bedroom, it happens in your day-to-day. Why does that sound unreasonable?

 

Similarly, I don't think sex is the same as telling someone how you like your coffee. Women don't always know and can't always verbalize because sexual desire comes out of the unconscious mind, not the conscious mind.

 

And the right question is not, "Why don't you want sex?" or "Why don't you want intimacy?" We know that. It's because she isn't turned on. The question is, "What turns you on?" But I don't know that it's something you just sit down and discuss.

 

If Mem said to his wife, "Honey, is it true that you're more turned on when we have some ongoing low-level conflict in our relationship?" it would probably ruin it.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I finally got it!

 

I'm just too stoopid.....

 

xxoo I appreciate your points and do get it, but I just can't get my head around people in good relationships or wanting to make things better screwing it up....

 

Yes I understand the experience is different, but an orgasm is an orgasm (a good feeling and experience) and that is why the man takes viagra to have an orgasm and offer pleasure his spouse/gf..... And frankly I think woman have better one's then men.....

 

Oh and florense, I don't ask my wife to make a chocolate cake every day.... I do all the baking and work and ask that she has a piece 1-3/wk......

Edited January 23, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[mem11363]

Sometimes she does something especially aggravating and gets verbally thrashed. Afterwards she likes to tell me that going forward "I am not allowed to get angry at her" - LOL. My response: You NEED a full spectrum emotional relationship: Hot, cold, combative, sweet. She just smiles and is silent.

 

And I typically add "If I were sweet all the time you would be a nightmare to deal with - given your baseline level of aggressiveness". And that usually gets either a big smile or a laugh - cause its true.

 

 

Chocolate cake tastes good too, but that doesn't mean I have the desire to get out the flour and sugar and eggs and mixer and bake one. Would the reward outweigh the work? Maybe I should just eat a handful of M&Ms.

 

I don't see why Mem's approach seems like a magic pill. Foreplay doesn't start in the bedroom, it happens in your day-to-day. Why does that sound unreasonable?

 

Similarly, I don't think sex is the same as telling someone how you like your coffee. Women don't always know and can't always verbalize because sexual desire comes out of the unconscious mind, not the conscious mind.

 

And the right question is not, "Why don't you want sex?" or "Why don't you want intimacy?" We know that. It's because she isn't turned on. The question is, "What turns you on?" But I don't know that it's something you just sit down and discuss.

 

If Mem said to his wife, "Honey, is it true that you're more turned on when we have some ongoing low-level conflict in our relationship?" it would probably ruin it.

[florence of suburbia]

I'm sure it depends on the approach. It sounds like maybe you're tone is slightly gruff and teasing at the same time rather than earnest and confessional, the former being much more interesting than the latter.

 

 

Sometimes she does something especially aggravating and gets verbally thrashed. Afterwards she likes to tell me that going forward "I am not allowed to get angry at her" - LOL. My response: You NEED a full spectrum emotional relationship: Hot, cold, combative, sweet. She just smiles and is silent.

 

And I typically add "If I were sweet all the time you would be a nightmare to deal with - given your baseline level of aggressiveness". And that usually gets either a big smile or a laugh - cause its true.

[mem11363]

Flo,

There is a style to this that works for us. Playfully aggressive works best. As for full fledged fighting - I don't know if she really "needs" that. Perhaps if I just had a bit more self control we could find out

 

As for TDP - his W has told him everything he needs to know to amplify their sex life. He has a successful career so is clearly a smart guy. That said, when it comes to this stuff unfortunately he already "knows" the answers. Because of that he chooses not to listen. He has been told that the "O" while nice, is not even close to the whole picture by many posters male and female. And yet his fixation on the "O" being the definition of sex being enjoyable has never wavered in the slightest. That despite the fact that his W does O - but shows no inclination to meet him halfway on frequency.

 

He likes to portray me as very unusual/unique. And/or I just married someone horny. LOL. LMAO. No one "stays" horny for 21 years. Well at least I don't think women do. And FWIW my W is "maybe" feeling lustful 2-3 days a month at most. And in menopause even that has mostly faded.

 

XX made a comment I "wholly" agree with which is that the "gestalt" of the experience is what matters. In fact - given a choice of a quick BJ OR an hour or more of kissing/massaging/touching at the end of which I have to go in the bathroom and "finish" myself - no contest. The quality of the orgasm from the quick BJ would be higher - than my own handjob. So what. All that other stuff is what makes me feel "connected". AND it is what makes my W feel good. I know that is true because on the nights she "can't" get there she still enjoys it.

 

And in fact I do - to a large degree - put that into practice. On nights she doesn't want sex - we often do the full body massage stuff either one way or taking turns. I don't do that to "score points". But I believe it does help my W grasp that being connected is more important to me than coming.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure it depends on the approach. It sounds like maybe you're tone is slightly gruff and teasing at the same time rather than earnest and confessional, the former being much more interesting than the latter.

Edited January 24, 2011 by mem11363

[LittleTiger]

No, physical intimacy, as I'm using the term, does not mean sex. It is the kind of touch that makes me feel so deeply cherished, but is very difficult to explain. I can't get enough of it. It is the falling into each other's arms every evening, and drinking in each other's warmth and smell, whether or not sex will follow.

 

It makes little sense to you, but it makes sense to me. I have times when I don't desire an orgasm, or just have no desire to do the things that lead to orgasm. Honestly, when I'm not turned on, all the stuff involved in sex seem kind of unappealing But the intimacy described above is always appealing, and usually leads to feeling turned on....

 

This is EXACTLY it - perfectly put xxoo.

 

........and this is what I mean about good communication. Perhaps my coffee analogy wasn't ideal, Florence, but what I was trying to say is that somehow, the woman (usually) needs to be very explicit about what she needs. I agree that often she doesn't know but, in most cases of lost sexual interest, we're talking about mature women who have a fair amount of sexual experience and who usually have some idea about what 'gets them in the mood'. For some reason, they just aren't willing, or able to communicate that with their partner.

 

Personally, I see no reason why you shouldn't sit down and discuss everything that's important to you as a couple and sexuality is surely very high on that list in a marriage or LTR? Physical intimacy is what creates and maintains the emotional bond.

 

My exH and I never discussed sex and our sex life wasn't good (something we both agreed on). In my current relationship we talk about every aspect our relationship including how we interact outside the bedroom and what it is about our behaviour that get the other's juices flowing. Exactly along the lines of "Honey, is it true that you're more turned on when we have some ongoing low-level conflict in our relationship?" Far from ruining it, I would say that level of communication is quite a powerful aphrodisiac for both of us because then we are more aware of what's going on beneath the surface during our interactions - good or otherwise.

 

I think that's unfair. No one is calling men stupid. We're trying to help you understand the women's experience, as it is often different from the man's experience.

 

Again - exactly! I don't believe men are stupid at all, I think the confusion is a fundamental difference in male and female (and individual) sexuality which both partners need to learn to understand.

Edited January 24, 2011 by LittleTiger

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

And the right question is not, "Why don't you want sex?" or "Why don't you want intimacy?" We know that. It's because she isn't turned on. The question is, "What turns you on?" But I don't know that it's something you just sit down and discuss.

If you have to ask this question, then the answer is likely to be something (or perhaps more than one thing) from the list below:

“It depends”;

“I don’t know”;

“It’s none of your business”;

“You should know anyway”;

“I don’t like to think about that”:

“Nothing. I’m not interested and I can’t see why you are”.

Or

“I know and I’m not telling you because the act is icky and degrading and not something nice people should talk about”.

[Honorable_Venerable]

This is EXACTLY it - perfectly put xxoo.

 

........and this is what I mean about good communication. Perhaps my coffee analogy wasn't ideal, Florence, but what I was trying to say is that somehow, the woman (usually) needs to be very explicit about what she needs. I agree that often she doesn't know but, in most cases of lost sexual interest, we're talking about mature women who have a fair amount of sexual experience and who usually have some idea about what 'gets them in the mood'. For some reason, they just aren't willing, or able to communicate that with their partner.

 

If they know, but are not willing to communicate it to their partner, then the partner has no hope. The partner can try the “crash about at random in the hope of getting lucky” approach, or just give up. But if it’s a two way process that one person won’t indulge in, you can re-invent and change yourself till hell freezes. The other person will re-invent and change to retain the equilibrium.

[zengirl]

There are different ways to communicate. I think communication also requires that each partner pick up on indirect signals as well -- observation, especially over time, and attention to detail -- as well as direct communication when necessary. Being receptive and looking for your answers is just as important as telling them.

 

And when you're looking for answers just to get what you want (i.e. Tell me what to do so we have more sex), I just don't think it's going to work as well as when you're constantly communicating, attentive, and looking simply to enrich the relationship, rather than for a specific set goal that you need. When your needs (whether it's sex or something else) become the focal point of your mind, you cease to be an attentive partner, and that's usually when things go wrong, and the other person stops wanting to give you want you need. I'm not saying those who want more sex don't care about their partners' needs perse, but they are too wrapped up in their own needs and the partner is likely picking up on that pressure, too.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

If you have to ask this question, then the answer is likely to be something (or perhaps more than one thing) from the list below:

“It depends”;

“I don’t know”;

“It’s none of your business”;

“You should know anyway”;

“I don’t like to think about that”:

“Nothing. I’m not interested and I can’t see why you are”.

Or

“I know and I’m not telling you because the act is icky and degrading and not something nice people should talk about”.

 

those are the answers we all expect, or the eye roll as to "why are you so obsessed and always asking".....

 

I'm not trying to be nasty or say this is always the case, but most women just don't want to talk about it and are perplexed that we are so pre-occupied about this....

 

Now all a woman needs to do is wear sexy lingerie, touch you, give you a "come hither" look, put your hand on one of their body parts or vice versa and the male should be ready to go in most cases.

 

For us it is one complicated puzzle......

[giotto]

This is a good read... After all these years with my lovely wife, and all our problems, some months ago I came to the conclusion that she doesn't really love me anymore. If she did, she wouldn't behave like she does. It's as simple as that. Action is what counts, not words. I wouldn't like to extend or impose my "vision" on anybody here, but people who have problems of this nature should sit down and take stock: is my marriage as good as it was at the beginning? Does she love me or not? Do I love her/him or not? It's simple questions, although the answers might take some time to find. It's taken me the last 15 years...

 

The thing is, I used to love my wife with all my heart and my love hadn't changed from the one I experienced from day 1. And because of this, I would never do what she is doing to me. If she really loved me, she wouldn't like seeing me suffering. But she does. She doesn't act. She only uses words. Maybe this is a familiar scenario for many of you here on LS. I would like to invite you to reflect deeply and then draw your own conclusions. I think I know what they will be...

 

//sorry for sounding pathetic... it wasn't my intention...

[LittleTiger]

There are different ways to communicate. I think communication also requires that each partner pick up on indirect signals as well -- observation, especially over time, and attention to detail -- as well as direct communication when necessary. Being receptive and looking for your answers is just as important as telling them.

 

Perhaps, but this relies on one partner being very perceptive and assumes the other gives out clear and non-ambiguous body language. Unfortunately 'observation' has a huge potential for misunderstandings.

 

And when you're looking for answers just to get what you want (i.e. Tell me what to do so we have more sex), I just don't think it's going to work as well as when you're constantly communicating, attentive, and looking simply to enrich the relationship, rather than for a specific set goal that you need. When your needs (whether it's sex or something else) become the focal point of your mind, you cease to be an attentive partner, and that's usually when things go wrong, and the other person stops wanting to give you want you need. I'm not saying those who want more sex don't care about their partners' needs perse, but they are too wrapped up in their own needs and the partner is likely picking up on that pressure, too.

 

I understand what you're saying here but I'm talking about open communication on every level and in both directions. My man wants to know what my specific needs are so that he can fulfill them and keep me happy and satisfied. I want him to know what my needs are for the same reason and I also want to know what his needs are so that I can keep him happy and satisfied - I know he wants me know too because he tells me. It has to work both ways and, when it does, it makes for a pretty incredible relationship - in and out of the bedroom.

 

Men are not mind readers - neither are women of course but, in general, men don't ask us to be. Women on the other hand ......... they expect the impossible - 'read my body/face and you'll know what I'm thinking' - not so! That's what humans developed language for.

 

If you don't know what your partner needs from you, and you're constantly trying to work it out or 'guess' based on your perception of their behaviour, how can you know what your role is in improving or maintaining a happy long term relationship?

 

If they know, but are not willing to communicate it to their partner, then the partner has no hope. The partner can try the “crash about at random in the hope of getting lucky” approach, or just give up. But if it’s a two way process that one person won’t indulge in, you can re-invent and change yourself till hell freezes. The other person will re-invent and change to retain the equilibrium.

 

That, I'm sorry to say HV is actually true. If one partner will not or cannot communicate their needs then as I said earlier 'you're stuffed'. My exH wouldn't talk to me and, as a result, the relationship died a very slow and painful death.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

This is a good read... After all these years with my lovely wife, and all our problems, some months ago I came to the conclusion that she doesn't really love me anymore. If she did, she wouldn't behave like she does. It's as simple as that. Action is what counts, not words. I wouldn't like to extend or impose my "vision" on anybody here, but people who have problems of this nature should sit down and take stock: is my marriage as good as it was at the beginning? Does she love me or not? Do I love her/him or not? It's simple questions, although the answers might take some time to find. It's taken me the last 15 years...

 

The thing is, I used to love my wife with all my heart and my love hadn't changed from the one I experienced from day 1. And because of this, I would never do what she is doing to me. If she really loved me, she wouldn't like seeing me suffering. But she does. She doesn't act. She only uses words. Maybe this is a familiar scenario for many of you here on LS. I would like to invite you to reflect deeply and then draw your own conclusions. I think I know what they will be...

 

//sorry for sounding pathetic... it wasn't my intention...

 

But that is the way I feel sometimes too...... Regardless of what we do or don't do or how we act or implement mem11363's and tnntm's list, it goes nowhere....

 

I do wonder if it is nothing more then comfort and financial implications that keeps people together.... My love for my wife hasn't waned, and I don't think hers has either (though she is more and more annoyed by little things, that have always been there and are things I have improved upon and are part of family stresses), but to her and your spouse they frankly think our pre-occupation and need for sex is childish and silly after 20-25 years..... To me it is as simple as that.

[giotto]

 

I do wonder if it is nothing more then comfort and financial implications that keeps people together....

 

well, I'm pretty sure this is for us. She would find it very very difficult to cope with working shifts and keep a whole family going on her own. I know it sounds cynical, but I do wonder too how many families are kept together just because life would be even more miserable - especially financially - if split up. And I wonder if this is more a female trait or not.

 

My love for my wife hasn't waned, and I don't think hers has either (though she is more and more annoyed by little things, that have always been there and are things I have improved upon and are part of family stresses), but to her and your spouse they frankly think our pre-occupation and need for sex is childish and silly after 20-25 years..... To me it is as simple as that.

 

As you know, my wife proposed a sexless marriage to me, saying that most of her female colleagues didn't have sex anymore... I'm only 47! Life without sex when you are married?

 

TDP, I know I'm turning into Mem , but don't you think that's a little disrespectful? At least my wife is not rude about it... but maybe because she doesn't say very much...

[LittleTiger]

those are the answers we all expect, or the eye roll as to "why are you so obsessed and always asking".....

 

I'm not trying to be nasty or say this is always the case, but most women just don't want to talk about it and are perplexed that we are so pre-occupied about this....

 

Now all a woman needs to do is wear sexy lingerie, touch you, give you a "come hither" look, put your hand on one of their body parts or vice versa and the male should be ready to go in most cases.

 

For us it is one complicated puzzle......

 

As much as I'm enjoying this discussion, I'm still a little confused about something TDP.

 

Going back to your OP, my understanding is that the advice you seemed to think was too simple was given to a woman in another thread who had said she wanted help with how to fall back in love with her husband ie a woman who may be feeling similar to your wife, giotto's wife, HVs wife or any other wife on LS who has lost interest in sex and intimacy.

 

(Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that your wives don't love you, I have no inside knowledge on that score, just that the advice was given to someone on that side of the fence, not yours.)

 

The advice, if I remember correctly, was to have sex with her husband on a regular basis so that eventually the feelings of love and intimacy would return.

 

Now, obviously, if somebody gave you that advice, or giotto or HV, it would be laughable - because whether or not you have sex with your wives is not up to you - it's up to them - and they don't want it - at least not often enough.

 

However, if your wife asked someone for advice on how to desire sex with you more often, or how to feel more intimate with you so that she desired sex more often and someone gave her this advice - wouldn't you then think, what a great idea? It may not work and, without her being honest about what she really needs, it probably won't but, nevertheless, from your point of view it still sounds like great advice to me.

 

The problem you guys have is that you're taking each other's advice on how to 'get your wives to have sex with you'. No matter what you do it is never going to happen unless there's something major in it for them - and I am not talking about orgasms.

[xxoo]

they frankly think our pre-occupation and need for sex is childish and silly after 20-25 years..... To me it is as simple as that.

 

but you guys are just in your 40s, right?

 

I'm going to be brutally honest here. She would NOT think sex was so childish and silly if she had a new boyfriend . It's not like she's 80!

 

Calling your continued interest in sex childish and silly is a version of "the best defense is a good offense". Deep down, she knows how ridiculous and selfish that is.

 

For men, getting aroused is simple: women's bodies make men aroused. Easy.

 

For women, it is not so simple. In the "falling in love" stage, it is pretty simple, and we get aroused easily. Beyond that, it takes some willingness to try.

 

And that is what this thread is about--the willingness, and unwillingness, to try.

 

So what does it mean if she is unwilling to try?

[Honorable_Venerable]

but you guys are just in your 40s, right?

 

I'm going to be brutally honest here. She would NOT think sex was so childish and silly if she had a new boyfriend . It's not like she's 80!

 

Calling your continued interest in sex childish and silly is a version of "the best defense is a good offense". Deep down, she knows how ridiculous and selfish that is.

 

For men, getting aroused is simple: women's bodies make men aroused. Easy.

 

For women, it is not so simple. In the "falling in love" stage, it is pretty simple, and we get aroused easily. Beyond that, it takes some willingness to try.

 

And that is what this thread is about--the willingness, and unwillingness, to try.

 

So what does it mean if she is unwilling to try?

 

That you are, in the words of my late father, like Barney's bull - boll*xed!

 

The willingness / unwilingness thing again reflects the exercise / fitness angle. Those who are into fitness ask non-exercisers:

"What's you favourite form of exercise?!" (all bouncy and enthusiastic:rolleyes:) and get the reply:

"None of them."

Then the gym bunnies say "No, there must be something you really like, what is it?!" and get the reply:

"None. I hate them all". After a number of iterations, the gym bunnies get the idea that this person (to their horror) REALLY doesn't like exercise, and go off and do their thing, shaking their heads at the unbelievability of it. When someone who likes sex discusses with their partner why they get it twice a year, and they ask "what turns them on", this is what happens.

 

The reluctant exerciser eventually finds that there is a routine they can tolerate, and sweat and curse their way through the laps at the pool, aerobics class or weights sessions. The analagous sex partner doesn't do the same because no one is telling them that if they don't have sex with their partner they risk osteoporosis, coronary heart disease or type II diabetes. Their doctor isn't telling them they need to have more sex so there is no rationale for doing something they think is silly / degrading / embarrasing. Relectant exercisers often exercise only because the health issues guilt trip them into it (I know this is the case, because I resemble these remarks!). Some do get into it, but by no means all, and it remains an obligation, not a pleasure. Reluctant sex partners aren't going to go down the same route. If they aren't interested (internally, intrinsically motivated) then the external, extrinsic motivators usually don't exist to make them interested.

 

Asking such a person what turns them on is like asking an exercise averse person their favourite workout - they don't have one, they don't want one, they don't want to talk to you about it and they don't G.A.S. how much YOU enjoy yours, because they lack a frame of reference for what you're talking about.

[LittleTiger]

And that is what this thread is about--the willingness, and unwillingness, to try.

 

So what does it mean if she is unwilling to try?

 

Bingo! There's nothing in it for her.

 

I love your posts xxoo.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Bingo! There's nothing in it for her.

 

I love your posts xxoo.

 

Do you have any:confused:?

[zengirl]

Perhaps, but this relies on one partner being very perceptive and assumes the other gives out clear and non-ambiguous body language. Unfortunately 'observation' has a huge potential for misunderstandings.

 

True, but I do think a lack of, say "logging of info" could lead to a lot of frustration over the years. The happiest relationships I've seen have had open communication AND attentive/observant partners. I don't mean mind-reading, so much as noting things that obviously and continuously happen and projecting a sense that you "know" your partner. Definitely no "Well, just tell me then!" type attitude. Both have to be willing to both observe and communicate clearly, so that the other doesn't JUST rely on observations. But having to constantly spell everything out, including obvious things, or recurring things, would be equally tedious as having a partner who never communicated anything. Balance is key.

 

My man wants to know what my specific needs are so that he can fulfill them and keep me happy and satisfied. I want him to know what my needs are for the same reason and I also want to know what his needs are so that I can keep him happy and satisfied - I know he wants me know too because he tells me. It has to work both ways and, when it does, it makes for a pretty incredible relationship - in and out of the bedroom.

 

Right----wanting to make your partner happy is the right way to go about it. Wanting to make your partner happy so they'll have more sex with you just isn't quite the same.