Have to Laugh.... Too obvious.... Yet one will never listen....

[xxoo]

The analagous sex partner doesn't do the same because no one is telling them that if they don't have sex with their partner they risk osteoporosis, coronary heart disease or type II diabetes. .

 

When it comes to motivation, there is the carrot and the stick.

 

For the reluctant exerciser, the carrot might be looking good and feeling good. The stick is threat of disease.

 

For the reluctant sex partner, the carrot maybe is a closer relationship, and a happy spouse. The stick is divorce.

 

If your wife is not motivated by the carrot, and she knows you won't divorce her, she is unlikely to change.

[xxoo]

Bingo! There's nothing in it for her.

 

I love your posts xxoo.

 

Aw, thanks LT. I like reading yours, too, because they make me feel normal

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Aw, thanks LT. I like reading yours, too, because they make me feel normal

 

you are too good to be true.... Next you'll tell us you look exactly like Gisele Bundchen and really piss me off......

[Toodamnpragmatic]

When it comes to motivation, there is the carrot and the stick.

 

For the reluctant exerciser, the carrot might be looking good and feeling good. The stick is threat of disease.

 

For the reluctant sex partner, the carrot maybe is a closer relationship, and a happy spouse. The stick is divorce.

 

If your wife is not motivated by the carrot, and she knows you won't divorce her, she is unlikely to change.

 

to dangle the carrot, the stick however is another story....

[Spark1111]

Most males will tell you that each and every time they have sex it is "good" (well at least 90% of the time)..... They are then left wondering if it is good, why not more? Then you have experts explaining released oxytocin, should help.....

 

Ah if it was so simple......

 

Heck I'm cranky..... You tell women that there is a female viagra and it has past all clinical tests to enhance libido, I bet you most women would not touch it (as opposed to men who do flock to viagra).....

 

Okay, sorry if this thread has taken a turn but I just saw this.

 

There is a female viagra in the clinical trials.....and you are right TDP, it is having mixed results!:laugh:

 

While it works in making females more aroused physically (the good news) it does not necessarily make females want to have sex. (the bad news)

 

We, and our emotions, are much more complex than that, apparently.

[xxoo]

you are too good to be true.... Next you'll tell us you look exactly like Gisele Bundchen and really piss me off......

 

Hey, it's the internet! Where else can I look like Gisele Bundchen? :lmao:

[LittleTiger]

Do you have any:confused:?

 

Just the one I've been saying all along - find out what will motivate her to have sex - to want it and to enjoy it.

 

Aw, thanks LT. I like reading yours, too, because they make me feel normal

 

I'm not sure we're 'normal' but it's certainly good to know we're not one off 'freaks'

 

you are too good to be true.... Next you'll tell us you look exactly like Gisele Bundchen and really piss me off......

 

.......I'm told we could be twins

 

to dangle the carrot, the stick however is another story....

 

Actually TDP you've got that the wrong way around. The stick is to threaten divorce (or something similar) - the carrot is what you're still looking for.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Just the one I've been saying all along - find out what will motivate her to have sex - to want it and to enjoy it.

 

 

 

What is your suggestion to those married to the sexual equivalent of reluctant exercisers? Those that DON'T enjoy it and don't WANT it. Those for whom the pros are never going to equal, never mind outweigh, the cons? Those who who lack a frame of reference to even want to discuss the issue?

[LittleTiger]

What is your suggestion to those married to the sexual equivalent of reluctant exercisers? Those that DON'T enjoy it and don't WANT it. Those for whom the pros are never going to equal, never mind outweigh, the cons? Those who who lack a frame of reference to even want to discuss the issue?

 

The short answer is, from what I know of your story and your wife, there may be no 'carrot' in her case because at the moment the carrot, whatever it may have been in the past, is apparently poisoned. Your only alternative in that case is to use the stick - threaten to take another woman for sex, or threaten divorce! However, then you are asking her to eat a poisoned carrot.....!

 

Your wife doesn't lack a frame of reference because she apparently used to enjoy sex - unless some of us were right when we suggested she did a 'bait and switch'. She used to be motivated to have sex with you - if you can find out whether it was for fun, or just to get you to marry her, that could give you an answer about where to go from here.

 

(I've PMd you a longer reply HV - it's too long to post here).

[xxoo]

What is your suggestion to those married to the sexual equivalent of reluctant exercisers? Those that DON'T enjoy it and don't WANT it. Those for whom the pros are never going to equal, never mind outweigh, the cons? Those who who lack a frame of reference to even want to discuss the issue?

 

HV, if you accept that she doesn't enjoy or want sex, and that is not going to change, what can you do? You can't force her to have a sexual relationship.

 

But she can't force you to have a marriage without one.

 

I wonder when your counselor is going to push her on that point--how it hurts you to be bound to a monogamous relationship with someone who is not interested in a sexual relationship. How does she live with causing you that pain? I'm not talking about vows; I'm talking about love.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

HV, if you accept that she doesn't enjoy or want sex, and that is not going to change, what can you do? You can't force her to have a sexual relationship.

 

But she can't force you to have a marriage without one.

 

I wonder when your counselor is going to push her on that point--how it hurts you to be bound to a monogamous relationship with someone who is not interested in a sexual relationship. How does she live with causing you that pain? I'm not talking about vows; I'm talking about love.

 

she just doesn't like all that sex entails and the issues surrounding her understanding of sexuality (sorry to put words in your mouth HV)......

 

Again the circular argument where there is no answer because your spouse holds all the cards.....

[giotto]

well, you two - LittleTiger and xxoo - are normal.... we seem to be married to freaks... Only joking... or am I? lol...

[mem11363]

When the carrot doesn't work, and you aren't willing to use the threat of divorce to have your needs prioritized, there is a "soft" stick.

 

Lets face it - there is only one type of stress that is comparable to being sexually shut down. Acute financial and total "workload" stress. So if I were in a situation where "I" wasn't allowed to divorce my W, but SHE was allowed to divorce me, I would most likely stop working and put ALL the financial stress on her. And then I would gradually become a less and less helpful "house husband". My W really and truly does love me. That said I would give her 90 days max before she came to bed either in a negligee or with a folder containing divorce papers.

 

Of course - being me - my delivery style would not be "harsh", in fact just the opposite. It would be something like this: "I am clinically depressed by the state of our marriage and am unable to work. I don't see that changing until our marriage heals." And then I would rinse/repeat that phrase.

 

At that point your spouse has a decision to make. For those who have a phobia of being labelled shallow for divorcing over "sex", this puts the shoe on the other foot. You can always say "they divorced me because my income decreased"

 

Frankly if I were HV I WOULD do this. His real issue seems to be that his W has no powerful motivator to get her to try to "fix" this.

 

HV, if you accept that she doesn't enjoy or want sex, and that is not going to change, what can you do? You can't force her to have a sexual relationship.

 

But she can't force you to have a marriage without one.

 

I wonder when your counselor is going to push her on that point--how it hurts you to be bound to a monogamous relationship with someone who is not interested in a sexual relationship. How does she live with causing you that pain? I'm not talking about vows; I'm talking about love.

[xxoo]

But she orgasms......

she just doesn't like all that sex entails and the issues surrounding her understanding of sexuality (sorry to put words in your mouth HV)......

..

 

Does she? I thought part of the issue was that she didn't (maybe did in the past, before marriage), had impossible demands for how she could, and refused any ideas that might be more realistic.

 

When the carrot doesn't work, and you aren't willing to use the threat of divorce to have your needs prioritized, there is a "soft" stick.

 

Lets face it - there is only one type of stress that is comparable to being sexually shut down. Acute financial and total "workload" stress. So if I were in a situation where "I" wasn't allowed to divorce my W, but SHE was allowed to divorce me, I would most likely stop working and put ALL the financial stress on her. And then I would gradually become a less and less helpful "house husband". My W really and truly does love me. That said I would give her 90 days max before she came to bed either in a negligee or with a folder containing divorce papers.

 

Of course - being me - my delivery style would not be "harsh", in fact just the opposite. It would be something like this: "I am clinically depressed by the state of our marriage and am unable to work. I don't see that changing until our marriage heals." And then I would rinse/repeat that phrase.

 

At that point your spouse has a decision to make. For those who have a phobia of being labelled shallow for divorcing over "sex", this puts the shoe on the other foot. You can always say "they divorced me because my income decreased"

 

Frankly if I were HV I WOULD do this. His real issue seems to be that his W has no powerful motivator to get her to try to "fix" this.

 

mem, this is brilliant. Devious, but brilliant.

[mem11363]

For HV that would entail selling his business and putting the proceeds in trust for their college funds. The basic concept applies to anyone who wants to "target" their stress where it belongs.

 

For someone with a "normal" income that might entail an intense austerity program with every saved dollar going to trust. Even that "program" would create some immediate stress.

 

There is no game I won't play, no stakes I won't risk, if I feel I am being royally screwed over by someone who thinks they have me by the balls.

 

I call this "precipice dancing" and frankly there is nothing more exhilarating when flooded with testosterone - or for the stronger sex - adrenaline.

 

FWIW - The FASTEST cure for depression is a precipice dance. Observe what Giotto's wife does every time she thinks she is even "close" to the edge of the abyss......

 

Does she? I thought part of the issue was that she didn't (maybe did in the past, before marriage), had impossible demands for how she could, and refused any ideas that might be more realistic.

 

 

 

mem, this is brilliant. Devious, but brilliant.

[LittleTiger]

Sorry I'm going backwards a bit here but I missed this one before.

 

True, but I do think a lack of, say "logging of info" could lead to a lot of frustration over the years. The happiest relationships I've seen have had open communication AND attentive/observant partners. I don't mean mind-reading, so much as noting things that obviously and continuously happen and projecting a sense that you "know" your partner. Definitely no "Well, just tell me then!" type attitude. Both have to be willing to both observe and communicate clearly, so that the other doesn't JUST rely on observations. But having to constantly spell everything out, including obvious things, or recurring things, would be equally tedious as having a partner who never communicated anything. Balance is key.

 

I totally agree. I wasn't suggesting constantly spelling things out and certainly not with a 'Well, just tell me then!" attitude . That would definitely be counter-productive. All I'm saying is that talking is the best form of communication and being open and honest when you're doing so is essential. If there is something you don't understand about your partner or your relationship, just ask.

 

Right----wanting to make your partner happy is the right way to go about it. Wanting to make your partner happy so they'll have more sex with you just isn't quite the same.

 

I understand what you're saying and you seem to be implying that this is entirely selfish. Well, the truth is, humans are intrinsically selfish. Just about every single thing we do has a selfish element. Even if it appears altruistic, 99.9% of the time it isn't (some psychologists say 100%). As a very minimum we get a 'feel good factor' because we've done something good.

 

So when I say I want my man to be happy, it's not just for him. I want me to be happy too. I know from experience (both from observation and conversation) that if my man is well fed, has plenty of sleep and as much sex as he wants, he's happy (it's not quite that simple of course because there are other stressors over which neither of us has enough control, but you get my meaning). When he's happy, he behaves like every woman's dream man and treats me like a princess. We have the best time together, the most fun together, the best sex etc and, as a result I'm happy too. It's a virtuous circle. Do I set out to achieve this just for me? Of course not, I do it for both of us, but there is a selfish element to it.

 

Speaking up for the guys on this thread, and other's like them, I don't think they're being selfish for wanting sex - or for wanting to make their partner happy in order to get more sex. In a monogamous relationship, if one partner is refusing to have sex on a regular basis, they are the one who's being selfish. They know that their partner (in most cases here the man) is unhappy but they are unwilling to do anything to change. So what alternative does the rejected partner have?

 

1) They try to find out what will make their partner desire more sex.

2) They find someone else to have sex with (preferably with the partner's consent)

3) They manipulate the situation as mem has suggested (nice one mem! )

4) They leave the relationship.

 

If I was the disinterested wife in any of these cases, I would want my husband to go all out for number one........and I would want to know about the alternative strategies too. That way it won't come as such a shock to me if/when I don't deliver the goods and he walks away.

 

To me it's unacceptable (and selfish) to expect someone to stay in a monogamous relationship without sex.

Edited January 25, 2011 by LittleTiger

[LittleTiger]

But she orgasms......

 

With all respect TDP, it would really help if you could forget about orgasms (and I think xxoo is right - I'm pretty sure HVs wife doesn't orgasm, despite hours of intercourse which, if I remember rightly, is all she allows!).

 

It doesn't seem to have sunk in for you that an orgasm for a woman is probably NOT the motivation for sex. Maybe, just maybe, the woman doesn't even enjoy her orgasm that much?

 

Now you'll probably laugh at that too but I'll tell you this: I have been masturbating since I was a baby (yes, I do know for sure) although I wasn't actually aware of what I was doing until I hit puberty. All I knew, as a child, was that I needed to do this 'thing' in order to get to sleep. I did it every single night throughout my childhood and my teenage years until I became sexually active. I got no 'pleasure' from what I did, just a feeling of relief. Something I did out of necessity in the way that you might eat a dry cracker if you were genuinely starving or a glass of any available liquid if you were dying of thirst. (OK, that makes it sound a bit dramatic but you get my meaning?)

 

Fortunately, as an adult, I learnt about my body and my sexual response and I discovered what a pleasure this 'thing' could really be (thank goodness! ) but not all women take the time to really 'tune in' to their bodies - which is why they often don't know what they need from their partner.

 

Maybe, even if your wife (or anyone else's) orgasms, she doesn't get any real 'pleasure' from it. Of course, I would hope that you've already discussed this with your wife so, in your case, it may not apply, but for the women I've talked to who no longer want sex (friends of mine in their 40s and early 50s) I know that it does.

 

As you seem so confused by this aspect of women's sexuality, I thought approaching from another angle might help. If not, well at least I gave it my best shot .

[xxoo]

All I knew, as a child, was that I needed to do this 'thing' in order to get to sleep. I did it every single night throughout my childhood and my teenage years until I became sexually active. I got no 'pleasure' from what I did, just a feeling of relief. Something I did out of necessity in the way that you might eat a dry cracker if you were genuinely starving or a glass of any available liquid if you were dying of thirst. (OK, that makes it sound a bit dramatic but you get my meaning?)

 

OMG, I did this, too! That confirms that WE are the freaks

 

To add my experience--when I first became sexually active, I would get very aroused but couldn't orgasm. I remember insisting that I'd never orgasmed, and I didn't know how (I was still a teen). It was a little frustrating for both of us. And then one day it finally hit me....."OH! That's an orgasm? Oh, I know how to do that!" And when I added "that" together with being wildly turned on, I finally understood what all the fuss was about .

[Toodamnpragmatic]

With all respect TDP, it would really help if you could forget about orgasms (and I think xxoo is right - I'm pretty sure HVs wife doesn't orgasm, despite hours of intercourse which, if I remember rightly, is all she allows!).

 

It doesn't seem to have sunk in for you that an orgasm for a woman is probably NOT the motivation for sex. Maybe, just maybe, the woman doesn't even enjoy her orgasm that much?

 

Now you'll probably laugh at that too but I'll tell you this: I have been masturbating since I was a baby (yes, I do know for sure) although I wasn't actually aware of what I was doing until I hit puberty. All I knew, as a child, was that I needed to do this 'thing' in order to get to sleep. I did it every single night throughout my childhood and my teenage years until I became sexually active. I got no 'pleasure' from what I did, just a feeling of relief. Something I did out of necessity in the way that you might eat a dry cracker if you were genuinely starving or a glass of any available liquid if you were dying of thirst. (OK, that makes it sound a bit dramatic but you get my meaning?)

 

Fortunately, as an adult, I learnt about my body and my sexual response and I discovered what a pleasure this 'thing' could really be (thank goodness! ) but not all women take the time to really 'tune in' to their bodies - which is why they often don't know what they need from their partner.

 

Maybe, even if your wife (or anyone else's) orgasms, she doesn't get any real 'pleasure' from it. Of course, I would hope that you've already discussed this with your wife so, in your case, it may not apply, but for the women I've talked to who no longer want sex (friends of mine in their 40s and early 50s) I know that it does.

 

As you seem so confused by this aspect of women's sexuality, I thought approaching from another angle might help. If not, well at least I gave it my best shot .

 

Of the orgasm argument..... I get it.... Let me tell you something, not all male orgasms are the same too..... Some are much better then others and some little more then a release...... But none are BAD. So are you telling me women have orgasms that feel bad?

 

I know too that my wife has many orgasms that are better then others, but none I think that are flat out bad........

 

I have more trouble understanding having sex when there is no orgasm and just frustration with not reaching the finish line when you really want to.

 

I really don't want this to take over the thread but lets agree I am just oblivious.

[xxoo]

Of the orgasm argument..... I get it.... Let me tell you something, not all male orgasms are the same too..... Some are much better then others and some little more then a release...... But none are BAD. So are you telling me women have orgasms that feel bad? .

 

Not necessarily bad....but more "take it or leave it".

 

You have to balance it with the possible reasons to avoid sex. If orgasm is neutral/slightly positive, but getting naked and being intimately close is strongly negative--negative wins.

[LittleTiger]

OMG, I did this, too! That confirms that WE are the freaks

 

:lmao: Certainly looks that way!

[LittleTiger]

Not necessarily bad....but more "take it or leave it".

 

You have to balance it with the possible reasons to avoid sex. If orgasm is neutral/slightly positive, but getting naked and being intimately close is strongly negative--negative wins.

 

Agreed (no surprise there! )

 

"Not worth the effort" is how I'd describe it.

[mem11363]

I posted once before about an experience last year where I "did" come but it was very bad.

 

Secretly I have always been uneasy about my W telling me that it can be very good for her even if she doesn't finish. Sounded like something you tell your male partner to protect his "fragile" ego.

 

And then recently - I had that exact experience. It was really, really fun but I could not finish. I "wiki'd" it and found out that "refractory" period refers to two different intervals. The former which was the only one I knew about refers to the amount of time post O that a man needs in order to be able to get "hard" again.

 

Turns out there is a second definition for refractory period. The interval in which a male cannot achieve an O. He can get hard. He can perform. He just cannot finish.

 

 

OMG, I did this, too! That confirms that WE are the freaks

 

To add my experience--when I first became sexually active, I would get very aroused but couldn't orgasm. I remember insisting that I'd never orgasmed, and I didn't know how (I was still a teen). It was a little frustrating for both of us. And then one day it finally hit me....."OH! That's an orgasm? Oh, I know how to do that!" And when I added "that" together with being wildly turned on, I finally understood what all the fuss was about .

[LittleTiger]

Secretly I have always been uneasy about my W telling me that it can be very good for her even if she doesn't finish. Sounded like something you tell your male partner to protect his "fragile" ego.

 

That's an interesting phrase to use mem and perhaps another example of how differently men and women see things. I think of lovemaking as 'finished' when we either fall asleep or get up for a shower - regardless of when, or if, we both orgasm.......or maybe I'm just being pedantic.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Not necessarily bad....but more "take it or leave it".

 

You have to balance it with the possible reasons to avoid sex. If orgasm is neutral/slightly positive, but getting naked and being intimately close is strongly negative--negative wins.

 

that I knew beforehand I was going to dislike and thought at best it was "take it or leave it" but was time spent with my spouse..... Sort of the same thing????/;)