Immature Question - When do you expect sex....

[Distant78]

In my book, any woman who expects fidelity from a man and then refuses to have sex with him is mean!

 

I agree, and not because I'm a man!:p

[mem11363]

TDP,

I agree with what you said about "training". I respect you and your observations. And also that you are smart, honest, patient and an overall good guy.

 

The biggest difference between us is that I accept that I must demonstrate a willingness to "lose" the marriage in order to keep it really healthy. While I DO NOT LIKE that, I fully accept it. And my W while nearly impervious to my anger, is truly fearful of my "indifference". Once I learned that her tolerance for "heat/arguing/anger" far exceeded my own, and that my tolerance for "cold" far, far exceeded hers, the entire marriage improved.

 

This is a summary of 21 years of observations.

 

Her raw "sexual" desire for me is low. It just is. I actually don't think that is "her" as much as me. I am not the "classical" version of a sexy guy even though I am easy to look at. With that said - why is she "willing" to be such a great sexual partner? I am as certain as you can ever be about this type thing that these are the main positive behavioral drivers for "her":

- She is emotionally "meshed" with me enough so that making "me" happy directly makes "her" happy.

- She likes the sensation it creates of being "ultra" close

- She is competitive (with herself) about this stuff and takes pride in bringing me to the edge of a cardiac event

- She enjoys being desired - it makes her feel desirable

- She truly believes that "bad sexual partner = bad wife" (this comes from me, and she has embraced it). When we have a sufficient "gap" between sex she will say "I don't want to be one of THOSE women". I just laugh.

 

On the down side - when her "low" desire goes to "no" desire she tries to conceal it instead of talking to me. Sadly at that point she is primarily being driven by fear and the guilt associated with not being a good partner.

 

I am conflicted about the guilt/fear thing. More so as I age. Trying to move away from that. On the bright side this morning I heard her say "I am in love with you". Haven't heard that in many moons.

 

 

you've done a better job of training your wife then I have..... Or maybe to make an analogy you found a Dressage Horse and I (and Giotto) found Mustangs......

[Distant78]

my wife has her issues, which I knew - although she never said they were - and she hid the seriousness of them from me for many years. My only mistake I suppose it's been pestering her and getting angry about it (the lack of sex), which made things worse. When the marriage hit the divorce stage, she confessed everything to me, promising she would get herself sorted (this was last year). Well, she hasn't and I don't think she ever will. And yes, I'm bitter about it, but I don't want to start another crisis... she is a nice person, really, but too wrapped up in herself and her problems.

 

Well then you gotta do what you gotta do.

[giotto]

you've done a better job of training your wife then I have..... Or maybe to make an analogy you found a Dressage Horse and I (and Giotto) found Mustangs......

 

My wife would not be trained... yes, she was (and is) a Mustang, to use TDP's analogy... It was one of the traits I found attractive in her (more fool me... ). But I did risk my marriage and it's worked a bit... meaning it's twice a month and not once a month. It's a compromise. But we all have to work with our issues. Happy? No, but it's the best we (or she) can do...

[mem11363]

Actually you did train her. She told you what she wants - zero sex. Absent your threat to leave it would quickly go to "zero".

 

As for how "nice" she is - well you know her way, way better than we do. She seems perfectly comfortable making you miserable. And totally willing to leave you over her "pride". Meaning given the chance - meaning you wouldn't leave her - she would force you to be celibate. And if you got a GF your W blatantly threatened to leave you.

 

There are two "faces" to love. Like a film photo has a negative and a developed picture. Both expressions of the same underlying "image".

 

The first face - the "positive' face of love is getting pleasure from making your partner happy.

 

The second - the "negative" - is working hard to avoid causing your partner anguish.

 

I will say this about your W Giotto. She is perfectly consistent. Absent the risk of loss of your financial support, she would enforce YOUR celibacy. While I actually respect her right NOT to have sex with you. I have no respect for her attempt to deny you both your own marital bed AND an external relationship. If it were me - I would demand a "post nup" and take away her financial incentive to stay with you - and see what happens. You will at least get "honest" behavior at that point.

 

 

 

 

My wife would not be trained... yes, she was (and is) a Mustang, to use TDP's analogy... It was one of the traits I found attractive in her (more fool me... ). But I did risk my marriage and it's worked a bit... meaning it's twice a month and not once a month. It's a compromise. But we all have to work with our issues. Happy? No, but it's the best we (or she) can do...

[giotto]

After my initial resistance in other threads, I've come to the conclusion that you are actually right, Mem. She is using me to a certain extent and she doesn't respect me. I don't believe we would go to zero sex, but probably once every couple of months. Well, that would be a sexless marriage to me.

 

For example, after 11 days of no sex and the promise (after the divorce phase and the reconciliation) we would have sex every week, knowing also that she would have 3 night shifts in a row, what does she do that evening? Reads until 1 o'clock in the morning and then no sex. But she tells me I'm very patient... she also asked me - even when we were separated - to tell her if I found another woman, because to her it would disgusting - meaning, I would have to leave the house.

 

My problem is simple: as I said, she is on ADs for her issues. So, to what degree her lack of interest is due to her issues and ADs? And to what degree she is being disrespectful and/or lazy? I will never know and because of this I'm not prepared to leave the family and inflict financial hardship on everybody. This situation has had a disastrous effect on me, to the point that I have mostly fallen out of love with her. I've had many dark years, which then led to our separation. Sometimes I wish I never met her, but then I look at my children and the thought disappears.

 

I do not want to appear whingey and I know some of you must be thinking "man up and stop being so pathetic" (I would probably say the same), but I'm not prepared to put my children through financial hardship just because we don't have sex every week... at the end of the day, it boils down to this.

 

 

 

Actually you did train her. She told you what she wants - zero sex. Absent your threat to leave it would quickly go to "zero".

 

As for how "nice" she is - well you know her way, way better than we do. She seems perfectly comfortable making you miserable. And totally willing to leave you over her "pride". Meaning given the chance - meaning you wouldn't leave her - she would force you to be celibate. And if you got a GF your W blatantly threatened to leave you.

 

There are two "faces" to love. Like a film photo has a negative and a developed picture. Both expressions of the same underlying "image".

 

The first face - the "positive' face of love is getting pleasure from making your partner happy.

 

The second - the "negative" - is working hard to avoid causing your partner anguish.

 

I will say this about your W Giotto. She is perfectly consistent. Absent the risk of loss of your financial support, she would enforce YOUR celibacy. While I actually respect her right NOT to have sex with you. I have no respect for her attempt to deny you both your own marital bed AND an external relationship. If it were me - I would demand a "post nup" and take away her financial incentive to stay with you - and see what happens. You will at least get "honest" behavior at that point.

[xxoo]

My problem is simple: as I said, she is on ADs for her issues. So, to what degree her lack of interest is due to her issues and ADs? And to what degree she is being disrespectful and/or lazy?.....

 

 

 

I do not want to appear whingey and I know some of you must be thinking "man up and stop being so pathetic" (I would probably say the same), but I'm not prepared to put my children through financial hardship just because we don't have sex every week... at the end of the day, it boils down to this.

 

Is it really just sex 1x a week that is missing? Isn't the sex a symptom of something much larger that is missing?

 

Giotto, do you touch and hold each other in the days between sex?

[giotto]

Is it really just sex 1x a week that is missing? Isn't the sex a symptom of something much larger that is missing?

 

Giotto, do you touch and hold each other in the days between sex?

 

mmm... it's a long story. We used to when we were younger (we've been together over 25 years now), but when she started withdrawing and taking the ADs (which coincided with the birth of our 3rd child) and I kept pestering her for sex (well after her birth.... we are talking 4 months after), any type of physical contact was viewed as sexual. I understand this. I supposed I put her off even more. I don't touch her at all now between the sex days. I'm actually scared to do it and I don't want to get too attached in case she rejects me again. You see, I believe she stopped loving me a long time before the birth of our 3rd child. How do I know? Well, she told me. Kind of. She did say a few years ago that she didn't love me like she did when we were younger, at the beginning. I did. I was devastated, but didn't mention it. We had a great relationship at the beginning, great sex, great fun. But then, with the children, it all changed. I suppose I'll never know why.

Edited January 31, 2011 by giotto

[xxoo]

mmm... it's a long story. We used to when we were younger (we've been together over 25 years now), but when she started withdrawing and taking the ADs (which coincided with the birth of our 3rd child) and I kept pestering her for sex (well after her birth.... we are talking 4 months after), any type of physical contact was viewed as sexual. I understand this. I supposed I put her off even more. I don't touch her at all now between the sex days. I'm actually scared to do it and I don't want to get too attached in case she rejects me again. You see, I believe she stopped loving me a long time before the birth of our 3rd child. How do I know? Well, she told me. Kind of. She did say a few years ago that she didn't love me like she did when we were younger, at the beginning. I did. I was devastated, but didn't mention it. We had a great relationship at the beginning, great sex, great fun. But then, with the children, it all changed. I suppose I'll never know why.

 

It's too common of a story

 

What I don't understand is, how can the BIG problem be "not enough sex" when you don't even touch each other on a daily basis?

 

Are you really ok with a marriage void of affection and touch if she is horny and puts out once a week?

 

Are you STILL avoiding touch because she will think it is sexual? Because, as it is, you only touch her in sexual situations. So, every touch IS sexual. And, while I don't blame you alone for that being the case, a situation where my H ONLY touches me in sexual situations is pretty offputting. That alone would turn me off.

 

FTR...I don't think 4 months after birth is "well after" in the context of pestering for sex--esp if someone is dealing with postpartum depression.

[giotto]

It's too common of a story

 

What I don't understand is, how can the BIG problem be "not enough sex" when you don't even touch each other on a daily basis?

 

Are you really ok with a marriage void of affection and touch if she is horny and puts out once a week?

 

Are you STILL avoiding touch because she will think it is sexual? Because, as it is, you only touch her in sexual situations. So, every touch IS sexual. And, while I don't blame you alone for that being the case, a situation where my H ONLY touches me in sexual situations is pretty offputting. That alone would turn me off.

 

FTR...I don't think 4 months after birth is "well after" in the context of pestering for sex--esp if someone is dealing with postpartum depression.

 

I hate what our marriage has become. I hate not being able to touch her. She would think I'm after sex. I can still give her a peck on her cheek and sometimes - but rarely - she hugs me. But I'm petrified to touch her more often after all the problems. No, I don't think our problem is just sex once a week at all. It's been wrong for years. She is not a great communicator - to put it mildly - so I never know what's going on. She always says "nothing", even when I insist.

 

And he is not depressed. She's never been depressed (her issues are different), even after the birth of our children. She loves children, especially babies. She was in "heaven" after the birth of all of them. She just wanted to prolong the mummy mode, I suppose...

[mem11363]

G,

That is really sad. Last year - when sex was a LOT less frequent than usual, one of the biggest reasons it didn't distress me was we had a very high amount of daily affection. And just in general she was very loving to me. Realizing how sappy this sounds - I definitely felt loved and WRT sexual frequency in sincerely believed she was doing the best she could.

 

I guess you have two choices. You can either continue to slowly detach with the plan being to leave when the last child leaves. Or you can come up with some means of communication whereby she understands that all affection unless otherwise stated - is not in any way connected to sex.

 

I hate what our marriage has become. I hate not being able to touch her. She would think I'm after sex. I can still give her a peck on her cheek and sometimes - but rarely - she hugs me. But I'm petrified to touch her more often after all the problems. No, I don't think our problem is just sex once a week at all. It's been wrong for years. She is not a great communicator - to put it mildly - so I never know what's going on. She always says "nothing", even when I insist.

 

And he is not depressed. She's never been depressed (her issues are different), even after the birth of our children. She loves children, especially babies. She was in "heaven" after the birth of all of them. She just wanted to prolong the mummy mode, I suppose...

[xxoo]

I hate what our marriage has become. I hate not being able to touch her. She would think I'm after sex. I can still give her a peck on her cheek and sometimes - but rarely - she hugs me. But I'm petrified to touch her more often after all the problems. No, I don't think our problem is just sex once a week at all. It's been wrong for years. She is not a great communicator - to put it mildly - so I never know what's going on. She always says "nothing", even when I insist.

 

And he is not depressed. She's never been depressed (her issues are different), even after the birth of our children. She loves children, especially babies. She was in "heaven" after the birth of all of them. She just wanted to prolong the mummy mode, I suppose...

 

Sorry, I assumed depression

 

I'm sorry about the whole lot, Giotto

[Honorable_Venerable]

G,

Or you can come up with some means of communication whereby she understands that all affection unless otherwise stated - is not in any way connected to sex.

 

This is like trying to get a blind person to understand the meaning of a sequence of coloured lights. There is no common frame of reference. When someone does manage it, it will be a great deal of help in the future when we have to deal with extraterrestrials with whom we have no frame of reference too!

[Honorable_Venerable]

It's too common of a story

 

What I don't understand is, how can the BIG problem be "not enough sex" when you don't even touch each other on a daily basis?

In the same way that with malaria the big problem is the spiking fever and convulsions, even though your cells are full of 'orrible little protozoa!

The infected, asymptomatic state isn't nice, but it's something you can live with. It's the flareups that you notice, even though it's the former that underlie the latter, and are are the root of the problem.

 

Are you really ok with a marriage void of affection and touch if she is horny and puts out once a week?

 

As Jim Reeves said "Welcome to my world..."

[xxoo]

In the same way that with malaria the big problem is the spiking fever and convulsions, even though your cells are full of 'orrible little protozoa!

The infected, asymptomatic state isn't nice, but it's something you can live with. It's the flareups that you notice, even though it's the former that underlie the latter, and are are the root of the problem.

 

 

As Jim Reeves said "Welcome to my world..."

 

 

But it's NOT asymptomatic. It just isn't a symptom that bothers you so much.

 

For me--I could live without the sex, but never without the daily, non-sexual touch.

 

If my H didn't seem to mind when my touch and affection left the relationship, but raised hell when sex left the relationship, I'd conclude he cared more about sex than about me.

 

I don't know if it is ignorance or denial, but it seems like a lot of men gloss over a major red flag when their wives stop wanting to hug and cuddle. If she doesn't crave your touch, she's already emotionally checked out. It is only a matter of time until she follows physically.

[mem11363]

I acknowledge in advance this is much harder to do in a sex starved marriage. That said - I never initiate affection with any thought of sex. Hand on the bible. Affection is it's own beautiful gift. Unless my W morphs it into sex which is very rare - it is just that - affection.

 

Then again we are completely binary about sex. It is either "on" for tonight or it is "off". And that is totally clear before we get in bed. So when I spoon or start a massage on an "off" night there is zero attempt to go "sensual" or subtly start caressing her. Otherwise I think she WOULD be anxious on the many nights she wants "off".

 

And affection during the day is not any type of foreplay. It just isn't. It makes her feel "happy/loved" which is the point. But it is not a "turn on" for her. Just a wiring thing I guess.

 

But it's NOT asymptomatic. It just isn't a symptom that bothers you so much.

 

For me--I could live without the sex, but never without the daily, non-sexual touch.

 

If my H didn't seem to mind when my touch and affection left the relationship, but raised hell when sex left the relationship, I'd conclude he cared more about sex than about me.

 

I don't know if it is ignorance or denial, but it seems like a lot of men gloss over a major red flag when their wives stop wanting to hug and cuddle. If she doesn't crave your touch, she's already emotionally checked out. It is only a matter of time until she follows physically.

[giotto]

 

For me--I could live without the sex, but never without the daily, non-sexual touch.

 

No, sorry, you could not live without sex, even with just the non-sexual touch, trust me. That would be like room-mates. You are not in a "sexless" marriage, so you don't really know what's it like. Actually, you are in a great marriage, so you can't even imagine it. If you were, you would be here with us, venting about it.... I do appreciate your opinions, though, it's always great to hear your point of view (no sarcasm here)...

Edited January 31, 2011 by giotto

[LittleTiger]

No, sorry, you could not live without sex, even with just the non-sexual touch, trust me. That would be like room-mates. You are not in a "sexless" marriage, so you don't really know what's it like. Actually, you are in a great marriage, so you can't even imagine it. If you were, you would be here with us, venting about it.... I do appreciate your opinions, though, it's always great to hear your point of view (no sarcasm here)...

 

I agree with you giotto, I'm not sure anyone who enjoys sex could live without it completely - although xxoo is an extraordinary woman so maybe she could.

 

There was physical affection in my marriage - hugging and hand-holding type of affection - but we only had sex once or twice a month. It drove me crazy and definitely poisoned the marriage.

[Molley]

Sorry TDP - I'm going to thread jack here...

 

 

Giotto – your situation reminds me of my BFF’s. For 15 years she struggled through her marriage with her husband. He was a nice guy, caring and loved their child, but post honeymoon, he basically checked out and she had to beg him for both affection and sex, it was draining and degrading. We used to laugh and say their daughter must have been born by immaculate conception, cause she couldn’t figure out when she had sex and conceived.

 

For 15 years they visited therapists and doctors, they would split up and then get back together again. He would act interested for a few weeks after a blow up, but then quickly return back to his normal “not interested” state. All he wanted was to be left alone, play golf, poker and video games. The emotional toll this had on my BFF was huge, she went to IC for many years to try to work through all the abandonment issues. I kept waiting for her to leave him, all I heard of was the lack of sex in their marriage.

 

She also would look forward to “special day” sex and when nothing happened it was a huge let down. She would plan wonderful vacations and spent many hours agonizing over the perfect gift for him (he never liked anything.) Finally, 15 years later she showed up on my door step and has never looked back at her old marriage and husband.

 

It never really is just about sex, there are wonderful, happy marriages out there where the couple can’t have sex because it’s physically impossible, but yet they remain very much in love because they still touch and remain affectionate. We humans are social beings who need attention, touch, and love and when the one person who vowed to give us that, doesn’t, it’s a form of mental abuse. My BFF suffered big time and finally couldn’t take being alone and lonely in her marriage. She got to the point where she was willing to give up comfort, security, everything really, in order to lead a life she really wanted. Interesting thing, once she actually walked out on her marriage (let me say… I’m very much pro marriage and want everyone to stay happily together) she slowly woke up and realized that she had a lot to offer, that she would prefer being by herself than stay in a marriage where she was basically ignored, and she wanted to share her love with someone who could reciprocate. About 4 months later she met a wonderful man (who happens to love sex) and now several years later, they’re getting married in a couple months.

 

Personally, I think 25 years of being denied love and affection is way too long. Giotto, it’s up to you, don’t give your wife so much power over you. You know by now that your wife will not change, she is where she wants to be. So it’s up to you, are you where you want to be? You deserve to be happy and fulfilled in life because really, this is it… you don’t get a do over as Giotto.

[giotto]

my wife told me about her issue (an upbringing thing, which happened when she was about 12 and it's not sexual in nature... a family thing) quite soon after we got together. But she seemed to be ok with it. Didn't seem to affect her at all. After 10 years together and the first two children, things got gradually worse and she started taking ADs for it. The trouble is, she never told me how bad things were and when I questioned her, she would say everything was ok. I was shut out of our relationship. She was emotionally unavailable, but I didn't know the cause, because she never said it was her issue. She only told me a year ago, when I was ready to pack my bags. She promised she would seek therapy to fix herself and our relationship, because "it wasn't fair on me". Unfortunately, nothing has changed.

 

Why am I not leaving? The children. Don't get me wrong, we get along fine, although there is no affection. Basically, I've given up. I know it's not a very good example to set our kids, but they really would be devastated. And we can't afford it financially. I suppose I'll probably go when the kids fly the nest, although I really care about my wife and it won't be easy after all these years together.

 

Sorry TDP - I'm going to thread jack here...

 

 

Giotto – your situation reminds me of my BFF’s. For 15 years she struggled through her marriage with her husband. He was a nice guy, caring and loved their child, but post honeymoon, he basically checked out and she had to beg him for both affection and sex, it was draining and degrading. We used to laugh and say their daughter must have been born by immaculate conception, cause she couldn’t figure out when she had sex and conceived.

 

For 15 years they visited therapists and doctors, they would split up and then get back together again. He would act interested for a few weeks after a blow up, but then quickly return back to his normal “not interested” state. All he wanted was to be left alone, play golf, poker and video games. The emotional toll this had on my BFF was huge, she went to IC for many years to try to work through all the abandonment issues. I kept waiting for her to leave him, all I heard of was the lack of sex in their marriage.

 

She also would look forward to “special day” sex and when nothing happened it was a huge let down. She would plan wonderful vacations and spent many hours agonizing over the perfect gift for him (he never liked anything.) Finally, 15 years later she showed up on my door step and has never looked back at her old marriage and husband.

 

It never really is just about sex, there are wonderful, happy marriages out there where the couple can’t have sex because it’s physically impossible, but yet they remain very much in love because they still touch and remain affectionate. We humans are social beings who need attention, touch, and love and when the one person who vowed to give us that, doesn’t, it’s a form of mental abuse. My BFF suffered big time and finally couldn’t take being alone and lonely in her marriage. She got to the point where she was willing to give up comfort, security, everything really, in order to lead a life she really wanted. Interesting thing, once she actually walked out on her marriage (let me say… I’m very much pro marriage and want everyone to stay happily together) she slowly woke up and realized that she had a lot to offer, that she would prefer being by herself than stay in a marriage where she was basically ignored, and she wanted to share her love with someone who could reciprocate. About 4 months later she met a wonderful man (who happens to love sex) and now several years later, they’re getting married in a couple months.

 

Personally, I think 25 years of being denied love and affection is way too long. Giotto, it’s up to you, don’t give your wife so much power over you. You know by now that your wife will not change, she is where she wants to be. So it’s up to you, are you where you want to be? You deserve to be happy and fulfilled in life because really, this is it… you don’t get a do over as Giotto.

[xxoo]

I agree with you giotto, I'm not sure anyone who enjoys sex could live without it completely - although xxoo is an extraordinary woman so maybe she could.

 

T/J....I'm really not. I should post more stories about the times I'm insecure, needy, and bitchy

 

On topic--we've had a low-sex year, but it was not because one partner was rejecting the other. We grew very close that year, with very little sex, but does context matter.

[StoneCold]

This is a sad sad thread guys.....

 

 

When do you "expect sex"?...I dont know when do you expect to eat?

 

This thread in not so many words says that its ok to be sexually starved... i have a lot more to add to this but I have to go. I will be back to add more.

[StoneCold]

OK As I was saying....

 

Do any of you see whats wrong with someone having to post a thread about when to expect sex? Nothing against the poster but he posed this question and you all weighed in..."Birthdays, Christmas, Veteran's day...."

 

What the F*ck.

 

Why is it that men (and I realize that women can be in this situation as well but lets face it this is widely a male issue to deal with) have to put their sexual needs at the bottom of the bag? All the time...every time....Why do guys back down and play into this? Guys, the more you play into this the worse it will become until you have NO control over your sex life, your sexless, you got no spine and your wife doesnt respect you because your nuts are jiggling around in her handbag somewhere next to the eye liner...for god sakes.

 

We have to be mindful of the woman's feelings and be considerate to her feminine needs and the second we slip its out to the curb for you. But as soon as we want sex...which may be important to that individual...we have to explain ourselves...Why? They never have to explain their needs so why should it be different for men?we are bad, we're animals and as a result they have "the right" to completely and totally ignore this need; because its "not important". Everything else is more important than your sexual needs...why cant it ALL be important. Its even present in the media...you see women on TV and other mediums abusing men because they hold sex ransome and the guy has got to dance around like a freaking circus monkey for a peanut...and the people laugh and say "oh thats cute...a man being abused"... and life goes on. That my friends is seriously disfunctional.

 

Dan Savage says it..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhUIFwrUDK8&feature=channel

 

 

And then when the **** hits the fan they turn around and say...

 

"Sex isnt everything"....which is the gayest line EVER because NOTHING is EVERYTHING. Spare me man...thats lame as hell. But the guy goes... "oook...sooory" tucks his tail between his legs and walks off.

 

Wife 1

Husband 0

 

LMAO

 

Guys, take your dignity back....if your wife wants to play those games dont play them with her...opt out...I do; I'll just find someone else whos game.

 

but of course some of you will say... "oh thats cheating"...you're right it is....but the way I see it shes cheating you too so you may as well just handle your business. If you dont take matters into your own hands (certainly no pun) the only one that loses is you.

Edited February 2, 2011 by StoneCold

[giotto]

if it weren't for our kids, we probably wouldn't be together now. But I can't stand the thought of another man raising MY kids...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

if it weren't for our kids, we probably wouldn't be together now. But I can't stand the thought of another man raising MY kids...

 

Exactly how, considering her views on sex and AD's and Issues?

 

Sorry you are losing me on that one.....