greengoddess Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In the culture I was alluding to, it's not a case of being blindsided by the A (since the expectation is that those will happen), it's more a case of being hurt by the disrespect shown by the lack of discretion. The fact that the BS knows about the A shows that the WS did not respect them enough to keep it hidden and discreet - and it's the lack of respect that hurts, rather than the inevitability of the A. I'm not sure how much sense that makes to an outsider - for whom the mere fact of the A would seem to signal disrespect anyway, surely? - but they were adamant in their argument. Okay so basically parading his affair person around all his friends and family would be the ultimate betrayal in this culture? Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Okay so basically parading his affair person around all his friends and family would be the ultimate betrayal in this culture? It would depend on whether his friends and family were part of the W's circle or not. Typically they wouldn't be, so that would be fine. If he paraded them around her friends and family, though, that would be a different matter... Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In the culture I was alluding to, it's not a case of being blindsided by the A (since the expectation is that those will happen), it's more a case of being hurt by the disrespect shown by the lack of discretion. The fact that the BS knows about the A shows that the WS did not respect them enough to keep it hidden and discreet - and it's the lack of respect that hurts, rather than the inevitability of the A. I'm not sure how much sense that makes to an outsider - for whom the mere fact of the A would seem to signal disrespect anyway, surely? - but they were adamant in their argument. How large of a culture are we talking about here, Owoman? Millions of people? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? I can understand that the size of the culture is irrelevent to the people IN the culture...for them, it's their life and way of life, it doesn't matter if it's 30 people or 30 million. But I'm trying to get a grasp on scope from the outside. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 How large of a culture are we talking about here, Owoman? Millions of people? Hundreds of thousands? Tens of thousands? I can understand that the size of the culture is irrelevent to the people IN the culture...for them, it's their life and way of life, it doesn't matter if it's 30 people or 30 million. But I'm trying to get a grasp on scope from the outside. Millions. Maybe around 20 Million? Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thank you...so you're talking a pretty hefty population base that shares this same culture and how it views infidelity. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It seems obvious that if allowing the BS to have full knowledge of an A is an affront to her (I seriously doubt "him" would apply since this seems to be one of THOSE cultures ), then there must be the feeling that A's are wrong. Otherwise it would be just fine and dandy if everyone knew. So what this means is that the men have just decided how things are gonna go and it's the woman's job to just suck it up, shut the hell up about it, and accept that it's a MAN's world. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why any enlightened woman would support this type of arrangement. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why any enlightened woman would support this type of arrangement. Culture. Pretty much that simple. Why do you accept that you should put on a dress/stockings/heels when you "doll up"? What makes that more "dressy" than sweat pants and a t-shirt? The culture you grew up in has a HUGE impact in what you feel about almost any given thing. I get OWoman's point about that. The only thing I'd like to point out here is that as far as we can tell on this forum...Owoman is the only person who's been raised in that culture, or near enough to that culture to have an understanding of those cultural values. They don't have a ton of bearing on this thread, or upon pretty much the rest of the posters on this forum. Just as we should respect the values of the men and women raised in that culture and understand that this what their culture has taught them...everyone should realize that the culture that the vast majority of posters on this forum were raised in has other cultural values around infidelity...that say that cheating itself is 'wrong'...the 'flaunting' may make things worse, but just committing the act is the main source of "disprespect" and conflict. I can accept that Owoman's cultural values maybe different than mine...but I would also expect the same respect of MY cultural values to be reciprocated as well. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why any enlightened woman would support this type of arrangement. Outsiders to a culture often don't "get" why insiders accept things or behave the way they do, but for insiders, it makes all the sense in the world. There are many things about American culture or British culture or Australian culture I don't get; and many things I take for granted that outsiders to my culture don't get. It doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It makes them different. Link to post Share on other sites
woinlove Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Outsiders to a culture often don't "get" why insiders accept things or behave the way they do, but for insiders, it makes all the sense in the world. There are many things about American culture or British culture or Australian culture I don't get; and many things I take for granted that outsiders to my culture don't get. It doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It makes them different. Actually, I think valid points have been raised about how women are viewed in this culture. This sounds like quite a stylized restriction for infidelity - as compared to a more freewheeling culture - and usually that goes along with gender restrictions as well. Some of these develop because paternity is considered important, the idea that it is important for a husband to know if he fathered his wife's children or not. So, what is the custom for infidelity of wives in this culture? As to different, right, or wrong - on gender issues it is not uncommon for some cultures to treat women like full citizens with equal rights than in other cultures and many people see the pushing equal rights for men and women as a "right" goal. Female circumcision and foot-binding of girls are a couple examples where people can take a stand based on human rights. Human rights are, of course, not universally accepted but that doesn't mean there is no right and wrong. What are the customs for women and infidelity in this culture? Is paternity not an issue provided the H isn't made aware he is not the biological father? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Culture. Pretty much that simple. Why do you accept that you should put on a dress/stockings/heels when you "doll up"? What makes that more "dressy" than sweat pants and a t-shirt?Oh, puhLEEZ! Put a woman with a good figure in sweats beside the same woman in a sexy dress and heels and see which one makes YOUR blood pressure rise. That's not culture. That's just knowing what looks hot. I maintain that any woman who would support a culture that keeps women under a man's thumb is NOT an enlightened woman. Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAtLast Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Oh, puhLEEZ! Put a woman with a good figure in sweats beside the same woman in a sexy dress and heels and see which one makes YOUR blood pressure rise. That's not culture. That's just knowing what looks hot. I maintain that any woman who would support a culture that keeps women under a man's thumb is NOT an enlightened woman. Donna, can you admit, then, that perhaps your definition of an enlightened woman may differ from the women in question? I generally enjoy your posts, but in this situation I believe you are projecting your views as to how said women "should" feel, perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Donna, can you admit, then, that perhaps your definition of an enlightened woman may differ from the women in question? I generally enjoy your posts, but in this situation I believe you are projecting your views as to how said women "should" feel, perhaps? Any woman who bends ALWAYS to a man's wishes to the point where she turns a blind eye to his screwing around, walking X many paces behind him, believing she's less than because she doesn't have a penis, is NOT enlightened. I'll never admit that. No. If you raise an animal in a shoebox with the lid on and only a hole for air, but the lights are off in the room the box is kept in, is it suddenly enlightened when you turn the lights on in said room and a miniscule pin point of light enters the box? We could also say some people feel the sky is green because they're color blind and just THINK it's green, but would that make it green simply because they think it is? Edited February 2, 2011 by donnamaybe Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Oh, puhLEEZ! Put a woman with a good figure in sweats beside the same woman in a sexy dress and heels and see which one makes YOUR blood pressure rise. That's not culture. That's just knowing what looks hot. I maintain that any woman who would support a culture that keeps women under a man's thumb is NOT an enlightened woman. Sorry Donna...gotta disagree with you here. What I described IS related to cultural values. And you would be AMAZED at how other cultures view all kinds of things. "Enlightened" can mean a number of different things to a number of different people. The same word could have an entirely different meaning in the culture that OW describes. Women in that culture might view you as shamelessly self-centered, over-bearing, unlady-like, and so on based on your views and attitudes. I'm not saying that I feel that way...what I'm saying is that they might be equally as 'disapproviing' of your viewpoint as you are of theirs. The trick to remember here is that they're not here...and so there's not a ton of value on arguing over whether or not they're "enlightened". There's no "right or wrong" in that...just different cultural values. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Sorry Donna...gotta disagree with you here. What I described IS related to cultural values. And you would be AMAZED at how other cultures view all kinds of things. "Enlightened" can mean a number of different things to a number of different people. The same word could have an entirely different meaning in the culture that OW describes. Women in that culture might view you as shamelessly self-centered, over-bearing, unlady-like, and so on based on your views and attitudes. I'm not saying that I feel that way...what I'm saying is that they might be equally as 'disapproviing' of your viewpoint as you are of theirs. The trick to remember here is that they're not here...and so there's not a ton of value on arguing over whether or not they're "enlightened". There's no "right or wrong" in that...just different cultural values. And they are welcome to their opinion, just as I thought I was welcome to mine. It's also culturally "okay" to mutilate the genitalia of females in some places. Of course, it's only my opinion that it isn't right to do that. Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAtLast Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 And they are welcome to their opinion, just as I thought I was welcome to mine. It's also culturally "okay" to mutilate the genitalia of females in some places. Of course, it's only my opinion that it isn't right to do that. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. As your last line shows me that you know it is ONLY an opinion. That's all I was asking. Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAtLast Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 As Owl has said, I am not condoning these types of behavior either. I just allow that everyone has their own values. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. As your last line shows me that you know it is ONLY an opinion. That's all I was asking. It's not hard to understand, is it, that EVERYONE who says ANYTHING is merely giving their opinion? However, since some women in these "enlightened" cultures are coming to a less enlightened place like the US to escape their male imposed role of submission, it seems to me there must be SOME kind of perception of their role being less than they would like. Link to post Share on other sites
woinlove Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. As your last line shows me that you know it is ONLY an opinion. That's all I was asking. I thought she was being sarcastic and picking up on my human rights comment above. I think it is a very interesting question how women are viewed in the culture OWoman describes. The cultures I am aware of with such stylized and complex restrictions around sexuality have definite restrictions that are gender specific where the rules have been set by men for men. It'd be interesting to know if that is the case here or if this is something different. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I thought she was being sarcastic and picking up on my human rights comment above.I was. I think it is a very interesting question how women are viewed in the culture OWoman describes. .My guess would be "chattle." I also maintain that many women in a situation like that would prefer to not be considered an object to be owned and used and told when to shut up and when to talk, but they haven't the resources to do a damn thing about it. Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAtLast Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Donna, your energy and spunk are certainly admirable. Although, I have to wonder if your man finds them exhausting at times? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Donna, your energy and spunk are certainly admirable. Although, I have to wonder if your man finds them exhausting at times?Nah. He likes it when I'm on top. Although he has said, "Could you let me wear the balls?" lol I tell him, "Just wear the damn things!" Not to worry. I make sure he knows and is secure that he is THE man in all aspects of our relationship. My "spunk," as you so decorously put it, has helped me in many, many ways over the years. I don't get taken advantage of by unscrupulous used car salesmen or a jerk disguised as a customer service rep. When I feel something is unjust, I take charge and deal with it. You should've seen me in action during my divorce with the self centered ex. Link to post Share on other sites
HappyAtLast Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You should've seen me in action during my divorce with the self centered ex. Actually, I would have quite enjoyed that. My wife is also very spunky and it has served her well in life also! Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Actually, I would have quite enjoyed that. My wife is also very spunky and it has served her well in life also!I'll bet it's one of the things that attracted you to her, just like my sweety! He knew he was entering the danger zone, so he had to be sure there was an empathetic, generally kind and giving person behind all that "spunk." Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 However, since some women in these "enlightened" cultures are coming to a less enlightened place like the US to escape their male imposed role of submission, it seems to me there must be SOME kind of perception of their role being less than they would like. The reverse holds true too - my home country is full of US expats seeking to escape to somewhere they prefer! That's the beauty of migration - people can go where they choose. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think it is a very interesting question how women are viewed in the culture OWoman describes. The cultures I am aware of with such stylized and complex restrictions around sexuality have definite restrictions that are gender specific where the rules have been set by men for men. It'd be interesting to know if that is the case here or if this is something different. Gender roles are different. Women certainly do not consider themselves lesser, even though from the outside you or Donna might, judging their situation according to their own. They consider "western" women oppressed in many ways, and feel sorry for them. Different norms, different values. Link to post Share on other sites
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