Life Turned Upside Down.

[Snowflower]

IP, I remember you from before and I probably took you to task for some of the stuff you said about your wife/marriage.

 

But I have to say now, that I think this was a huge wake-up call for you and your wife.

 

I can't remember if you mentioned this...did you tell all about the former neighbor lady in MC? If you have not, now is the time to do this. Tell your wife all your thoughts about the former neighbor and the somewhat inappopriate convo you had with her when she drove you to the airport. I think that was you--I can't remember everyone's stories--but your stuck out for me for some reason. Put it all out on the table, so to speak.

 

Have you done this?

[mem11363]

Did she directly express those "very human needs" to you and you ignored them? Or was this one of those "I wish you had been doing X for the last 5 years" even though she never mentioned it along the way.

 

 

I don't know if I'm handling this great, I'm not sure anyone handles this well. But I'm making an effort and that's at least something.

 

I think you hit upon something that we've discussed in MC - I tended to put her on a pedestal and failed to understand her very human needs. It may not have sounded that way in some of my threads regarding my neighbor, but in practice I did elevate her to an unreasonable degree - she even acknowledges it.

 

Thank you for your support!

[InternationalPlayboy]

Did she directly express those "very human needs" to you and you ignored them? Or was this one of those "I wish you had been doing X for the last 5 years" even though she never mentioned it along the way.

 

Eh - It's a you say tomato I say tomato type thing. She says she was specific, I say she wasn't. I say I was specific and she says I wasn't.

[InternationalPlayboy]

IP, I remember you from before and I probably took you to task for some of the stuff you said about your wife/marriage.

 

But I have to say now, that I think this was a huge wake-up call for you and your wife.

 

I can't remember if you mentioned this...did you tell all about the former neighbor lady in MC? If you have not, now is the time to do this. Tell your wife all your thoughts about the former neighbor and the somewhat inappopriate convo you had with her when she drove you to the airport. I think that was you--I can't remember everyone's stories--but your stuck out for me for some reason. Put it all out on the table, so to speak.

 

Have you done this?

 

Yes, we've discussed it. And discussed what lead up to it. It all makes a lot more sense when an outsider can piece things together. To my credit, I never shared intimate details with the former neighbor lady, never flirted and made a conscious effort to avoid such things because I knew I was vulnerable. My wife understands and accepts it to the point where it hardly comes up anymore.

 

As for the inappropriate conversation on the way to the airport - it was short lived and entirely of her creation. As soon as it turned down that road, I quickly changed the subject. I didn't want to change the subject but knew I was vulnerable. Again, my wife knows this and understands.

 

Not to nitpick, but I accept my wife was vulnerable and sought praise from her mentor. But what I have a hard time with is she never held back, she never said maybe I shouldn't be doing these things or saying these things. But again, this may be nitpicking.

 

Thanks for writing back!

[InternationalPlayboy]

Okay, so things are finally wrapping up financially with my wife's mentor. At that point, I intend to let him know he is persona non grata in our relationship. I think this will satisfy my need for revenge. I hope.

 

But, there's another one of these "business" conferences coming up at the end of the month. I'd already told my wife I wanted to go - I tried to make it sound as though I wanted to go for my own intellectual stimulation not simply to keep an eye on her or watch for her mentor to show up.

 

The other night, she came to me and said she was worried about having me at the conference and asked maybe I shouldn't go. I basically said, if I don't go, I don't want her going.

 

This dilemma evidently has her and and her mentor chatting more than they had been lately - I check her chat and email logs daily (without her knowledge I believe) just to be sure. She asked him if he was going to the conference and said she was worried about possible "friction" between the two of us. He told her, he'd steer clear of any function we attend. To which she said "Thank God."

 

She doesn't know I read these chat logs and emails and we were at a stalemate the other evening when discussing the upcoming conference. I'm sticking by my guns on this. If she insists - insists - on going, well she will find an empty house when she returns. I've not informed her of that, but those are my plans. It only makes sense, we're trying to fix our relationship but if one party isn't making an honest effort, why bother?

 

I'm guessing this will be a topic for discussion at our counseling session tomorrow.

 

Your thoughts?

[InternationalPlayboy]

Also - the other evening she informed me that she'd explained everything that was going on to a few friends of her...which kind of pissed me off. I know she confided everything to her mentor, we'd already discussed that but this was new.

 

Is it wrong to be upset about that? I told her now when these friends see me, they will view me and our relationship differently, perhaps negatively. I'd gone far out of my way to not tell anyone - except for the anonymous Loveshack crowd. I've wanted to - I've really really wanted to - but didn't want to interfere with how people view her or us.

 

I told her "Hey, there are some intimate things you share only with your spouse." And she was like "I had to tell someone about why I was so upset." And I'm like "No. You don't. You keep it to yourself, your spouse or the counselor."

 

It would be one thing had she complained to her girlfriends prior to the **** hitting the fan, but now??? Seems weird to me.

 

Am I overreacting?

[2sunny]

there is much more going on than she's telling YOU. she tells others = knowing it feels like betrayal to you... that is not honor and respect within the M. yet she does it...

 

so - what we have is that she says one thing but is willing to go behind your back to complain about you and your M. that isn't useful. IF she has a concern - she should take it DIRECTLY to the person the concern is about = you. so she essentially is road blocking any progress you TWO CAN potentially make together by gossiping outside your M. this is why it looks back wards.

 

since she is unwilling to be directly honest with the source of her issues... she isn't helping at all... actually hurting the M more than helping. sad to say, this is often known as rewriting marital history to make you look bad and her look like a victim so when she does decide to leave - the blame is on you instead of her.

 

and BTW - her "thank god" response - is NOT within a normal realm of a working relationship. IF i were doing NOTHING wrong or anything that MAY cause suspicion - my response would never be close to "thank god" when a co worker says the will steer clear of my attendance with my spouse. a "normal" response would be - "looking forward to a productive meeting"

 

see the difference?

 

there is a LOT going on that she's unwilling to tell. i guarantee it.

 

if it were me - i would hire someone to follow her - knowing what i'm already going to get as my evidence. while she was away- i'd move money and change the locks. she's betraying and playing innocent girl. that is not what i would see as loving behavior.

[Snowflower]

 

The other night, she came to me and said she was worried about having me at the conference and asked maybe I shouldn't go. I basically said, if I don't go, I don't want her going.

 

~snip~

 

She doesn't know I read these chat logs and emails and we were at a stalemate the other evening when discussing the upcoming conference. I'm sticking by my guns on this. If she insists - insists - on going, well she will find an empty house when she returns. I've not informed her of that, but those are my plans. It only makes sense, we're trying to fix our relationship but if one party isn't making an honest effort, why bother?

 

 

IP, have you told your wife that if she goes to the conference alone that she will be coming home to an empty house? I couldn't tell if you had articulated this to her in your post above.

 

I think it is a fair ultimatum but she has to know that the ultimatum has been delivered, KWIM?

[InternationalPlayboy]

IP, have you told your wife that if she goes to the conference alone that she will be coming home to an empty house? I couldn't tell if you had articulated this to her in your post above.

 

I think it is a fair ultimatum but she has to know that the ultimatum has been delivered, KWIM?

 

No. I've not articulated it although I intend to touch upon it at our counseling session tomorrow. Typically, ultimatums backfire, I find. People get defensive and start swinging randomly regardless of who gets hurt. But I will make my position fully clear.

[Snowflower]

Yes, we've discussed it. And discussed what lead up to it. It all makes a lot more sense when an outsider can piece things together. To my credit, I never shared intimate details with the former neighbor lady, never flirted and made a conscious effort to avoid such things because I knew I was vulnerable. My wife understands and accepts it to the point where it hardly comes up anymore.

 

As for the inappropriate conversation on the way to the airport - it was short lived and entirely of her creation. As soon as it turned down that road, I quickly changed the subject. I didn't want to change the subject but knew I was vulnerable. Again, my wife knows this and understands.

 

Thanks for explaining. It's good it is all out on the table and is on it's way to being a non-issue soon.

 

Not to nitpick, but I accept my wife was vulnerable and sought praise from her mentor. But what I have a hard time with is she never held back, she never said maybe I shouldn't be doing these things or saying these things. But again, this may be nitpicking.

 

Thanks for writing back!

 

Look at it this way, for some reason, you knew to nip it in the bud with your neighbor. Whether it was because you sought advice here on LS, or your own good common sense, you stopped a dangerous situation. Kudos to you!

 

I really wish my H had come to a place like this for advice before he started his affair. I think he, like many soon-to-be WS or nearly WS (like your wiefe), would stop and reconsider their choices to continue down the slippery slope if they had been armed with a knowledge.

 

Your wife, however, did not have the relative advantage of knowledge. She didn't know enough to stop her behavior. She should have but she didn't. Just like my H, the what-the-heck-was-I-thinking moment had to come AFTER the damage was done. Make sense?

 

I know it isn't easy to deal with.

[InternationalPlayboy]

there is much more going on than she's telling YOU. she tells others = knowing it feels like betrayal to you... that is not honor and respect within the M. yet she does it...

 

so - what we have is that she says one thing but is willing to go behind your back to complain about you and your M. that isn't useful. IF she has a concern - she should take it DIRECTLY to the person the concern is about = you. so she essentially is road blocking any progress you TWO CAN potentially make together by gossiping outside your M. this is why it looks back wards.

 

since she is unwilling to be directly honest with the source of her issues... she isn't helping at all... actually hurting the M more than helping. sad to say, this is often known as rewriting marital history to make you look bad and her look like a victim so when she does decide to leave - the blame is on you instead of her.

 

and BTW - her "thank god" response - is NOT within a normal realm of a working relationship. IF i were doing NOTHING wrong or anything that MAY cause suspicion - my response would never be close to "thank god" when a co worker says the will steer clear of my attendance with my spouse. a "normal" response would be - "looking forward to a productive meeting"

 

see the difference?

 

there is a LOT going on that she's unwilling to tell. i guarantee it.

 

if it were me - i would hire someone to follow her - knowing what i'm already going to get as my evidence. while she was away- i'd move money and change the locks. she's betraying and playing innocent girl. that is not what i would see as loving behavior.

 

Yes, the tone of her conversations has been a topic at our counseling sessions. I read other emails from guys, friends, co-workers etc. And they were all exceedingly dull because they were completely professional or simply friendly. The tone she took with her mentor was completely different.

 

Luckily, I don't need to follow her - she's rarely far from my sight and her mentor is 12 hours away.

[Snowflower]

No. I've not articulated it although I intend to touch upon it at our counseling session tomorrow. Typically, ultimatums backfire, I find. People get defensive and start swinging randomly regardless of who gets hurt. But I will make my position fully clear.

 

Yup, ultimatums tend to put people on the defensive. Maybe the better term is "consequences."

[2sunny]

Yes, the tone of her conversations has been a topic at our counseling sessions. I read other emails from guys, friends, co-workers etc. And they were all exceedingly dull because they were completely professional or simply friendly. The tone she took with her mentor was completely different.

 

Luckily, I don't need to follow her - she's rarely far from my sight and her mentor is 12 hours away.

 

i was referencing the conference - if you don't go with her.

 

it's obvious she gave him the heads up to you attending... who does that? usually someone who needs to cover something up - or have someone go along with some sort of pretending. that's why i say - there is much you aren't allowed to know. what you do know is that something seems "off". she is allowing him to be part of her life, and now that affects you and your M. she understands it is hurting the M in SOME capacity = yet she allows it to continue by participating further... even talking to others about her issues with you - instead of coming to you directly with those concerns... this is a woman that is using her actions to betray you and the M. since she chooses not to stop that behavior - YOU now have choices based on what she does. what are YOU going to do? is this the behavior you want in your wife? if not, tell her to leave. she creates this = she should go if it's not working for you. she chooses intimacy with this OM over feeling connected to you. you can't MAKE her want to be connected to you... especially since she is purposely growing her connection with him even bigger by spending time and energy corresponding with him - while she knows it feels like betrayal to you. how is THAT helpful? it's not. since she keeps at it - you only have choices that are in your best interest at this point. choose wisely. be honest. be clear.

 

her "tone" with him seems different than usual = because something IS different... THAT is enough to go on right there. since she won't admit... you have decisions based soley on what you DO know.

[Alma Mobley]

Am I overreacting?

 

No, you're not. It is inappropriate to discuss your marital problems outside the marriage, especially to mutual friends. I learned this lesson a long time ago, before I was married. The view that friend or friends have of you can be forever changed, and if it's juicy enough, they will probably gossip to others. (This happened to me, actually, in a LTR where my partner told his parents very personal info about us and some of my problems, and of course they gossiped about it to his mom's sister and their daughter and who knows who else.) I hope you've made it clear to her that she is not to do this again but to keep it between you or with the counselor.

 

I don't know about the other situation. I don't know how you two can go forward if she intends on never revealing the true nature of her relationship with her mentor.

[Distant78]

No, you're not. It is inappropriate to discuss your marital problems outside the marriage, especially to mutual friends. I learned this lesson a long time ago, before I was married. The view that friend or friends have of you can be forever changed, and if it's juicy enough, they will probably gossip to others.

 

Really good post. Love it. Lots of people are not fit for relationships these days.

 

I don't know about the other situation. I don't know how you two can go forward if she intends on never revealing the true nature of her relationship with her mentor.

 

It's obvious she's still cheating.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Okay, we have a counseling session in a little bit, but we had a heated discussion last night. Here's the gist:

 

She wants to go to this upcoming conference alone. She says because she I would make her have a miserable time, because some of the same people she confided in will be there and making assumptions etc. She also feels the main reason I'm going is to keep tabs on her, not for any real educational purpose.

 

I told her that either she goes with me or we should consider separating. Granted, part of me is going to keep tabs on her but also I'm trying to take a more active role in her life and vice versa. I accused her of actively pushing me away.

 

She said I'm the one that needs professional help, which I said agreed with (it doesn't scare me like it does her) and she tried to even wiggle out of going to MC today but when I told her she must be there and that it hurts that she's not putting forth effort, she relented and agreed to go. I said she also could benefit from individual counseling.

 

Last week, after another heated discussion we agreed to write down 50 goals we'd like to accomplish in our lifetime. I wrote mine and emailed them to her the next day. Last night she said, so many of our goals are different and I replied that I wouldn't know since she never took the time to write them down like I did. Again, I accused her of not putting forth an honest effort to make improvements in our marriage.

 

Ugh, I was so pissed off. Still am. Wish me luck at MC today.

[xxoo]

She wants to go to this upcoming conference alone. She says because she I would make her have a miserable time, because some of the same people she confided in will be there and making assumptions etc. She also feels the main reason I'm going is to keep tabs on her, not for any real educational purpose.

 

I told her that either she goes with me or we should consider separating. Granted, part of me is going to keep tabs on her but also I'm trying to take a more active role in her life and vice versa. I accused her of actively pushing me away.

 

Stand your ground.

 

She screwed up and broke trust. In order to earn that trust back, she needs to be transparent and put you (the relationship) first. Your feelings--earning your trust--needs to come before other people and their "assumptions".

 

At this stage, going together or not at all seems like a completely reasonable expectation to me.

 

Hope MC goes well today!

[UnsureinSeattle]

I hate to be one of these people that goes "She's definitely up to something! Something's going on!" but...

 

... It sounds like she's making no effort in this at all. She's not listening to you or your feelings. She's... preoccupied with something. At least, that's what it sounds like to me. What that something is...

[mem11363]

I agree with X.

 

Let me get this straight.

- She broke faith with her mentor and hasn't fully acknowledged how far she took it

- She doubled down by "telling" other people

- Now she wants to do a trip and is pressing IP not to come because SHE will be uncomfortable seeing the other people she inappropriately shared this with

 

Sounds like she is aggressively demanding that all "HER" needs be respected while his get ignored.

 

IP - this is the standard pattern. Even all the "dress up clothing and shoes and the vibrator" she brought to the last conference for her mentor. This was the same woman who was giving you the "extra frumpy" look at home.

 

I can also say with a high degree of confidence that the whole "tomato tomoto" thing was not genuine. You are clear and sincere in your communication. Frankly I think your biggest challenge is in being too nice. She chooses not to say much and then later claims she meant "whatever is most convenient at the moment".

 

It seems that she is playing a subtle game of brinksmanship with you. This whole bit about "different goals" is part of a "I am not so sure about us - you probably don't want to make me angry about this upcoming conference".

 

Aggressive avoidance of MC is a near universal response when one spouse realizes their behavior is objectively indefensible.

 

 

Stand your ground.

 

She screwed up and broke trust. In order to earn that trust back, she needs to be transparent and put you (the relationship) first. Your feelings--earning your trust--needs to come before other people and their "assumptions".

 

At this stage, going together or not at all seems like a completely reasonable expectation to me.

 

Hope MC goes well today!

[Binster]

Let her go on her own and hire a P.I for the W/E.

Either that or stick a radio alarm/voice activated recorder in her suitcase.

Or just turn up late in the night and see whats happening.

It's way to find out what is going on, although personally I'm tending to think the worst.

If you dont do any of the above definately dont let her go on her own.