Unapologetic OWs - a threat?

[donnamaybe]

I always knew that my involvement when I was the knowing OW with xmm caused pain whether she knew it not and that was certainly made a lot clearer when her and I talked. I don't want to get into detail about it cause it would be TMI, but it was something that I will never forget and to know that I had a part in it is a heavy load to carry around.

You never struck me as the uncaring type, BB. Never. There's a vast difference between being stuck in your own self imposed difficult situation, but quite another to have an attitude of "to hell with everyone but me." Besides, didn't your MM tell you he was separated?

[Spark1111]

I believe some actually like to think of themselves as a threat. It makes them feel safer. I have often thought they desperately want to be married but fear being hurt by an affair. No marriage for them means no one can take from them but what they really want bleeds through and they get it the way they fear the most - by taking from someone else they envy more than they care to admit. They need to be part of the process in being chosen over someone else or its not satisfying to their insecurities.

 

"he must really love me if he is willing to do *this* to be with me."

 

But catfish always bites the dangled worm.

 

Good point, Sara!

 

Also, among the insecure, is "well, of course he had to return to his marriage!" See? She wasn't rejected personally, but rejected because of a noble cause: Giving the marriage one more shot, or "for the sake of the kids."

[jthorne]

Yup. I am the same way. When someone is hurting, I feel for them and want to help them, if only to feel better for the moment while they read my thread.

 

On the other hand, for people who have the attitude of "I don't care who gets hurt as long as I get what I want," I have very little to no sympathy.

Ah! Here we are at the cruz of the matter!

 

A uOW does not come off as hurting, so it's very difficult to acertain what support they are seeking. I've said it before that my opinion is they are seeking validation, not support. That would support my post above about insecurity and jealousy (and being a non-threat to stay on topic). One that is secure in their position does not need validation.

 

A major complaint of uOW's is that there is only "support" here for those who want out of an A or are in NC. For me, anyway, the bolded is why. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

[BB07]

Then you'd be well qualified to speak on this. What would it have taken, or rather in what way would you have had to be different to have not felt burdened by her pain?

 

No empathy, no remorse, a "I don't give a damn just as long as I get what I want."

 

And......obviously there was a point in time when what I wanted took precedence over the above feelings. Not a pretty picture is it?

[donnamaybe]

No empathy, no remorse, a "I don't give a damn just as long as I get what I want."

 

And......obviously there was a point in time when what I wanted took precedence over the above feelings. Not a pretty picture is it?

But then you are NOT "unapologetic." You did what you did, but you felt bad about that other aspect of the situation. You CARE.

 

HUGE difference, and a quality that makes an outsider feel for your pain and inner turmoil.

[BB07]

You never struck me as the uncaring type, BB. Never. There's a vast difference between being stuck in your own self imposed difficult situation, but quite another to have an attitude of "to hell with everyone but me." Besides, didn't your MM tell you he was separated?

 

Yes it told me that lie 2 times , but there was about a year of time in our first round that he said he had to go back and I continued seeing him. No sex.......but that is a small detail that probably doesn't make any difference as it was an affair and I was OW. Of course now I know all about the other lies and how it manipulated me that got me to that point, but still I did what I did.

[jthorne]

What happened to the OP of this thread?

I'm sincerely interested to know if she is receiving the responses she thought she would.

[Mme. Chaucer]

To feel completely unapologetic with regard to an action that you knew had caused pain to another, I think you'd need to either have no internal code of ethics at all - or you would need to feel very clear that your actions had been consistent with your internal code of ethics, which (you would also be clear) was a fair and balanced code.

 

Even then, I think most people will feel bad when they know their actions have caused real emotional pain - of the sort that will be hard to recover from - to another person. Such is the nature of inner conflict and morally challenging decisions. We can feel 95% sure that we've followed the correct course of action, but when we witness another person's pained response to that action there's that element of "could I have handled this better? Is there a way of easing this person's pain without compromising my principles?"

 

For somebody to announce themselves as unapologetic - as in the "unapologetic other woman" one poster touts herself as - smacks of bullsh*t. If there were no internal conflict, surely they'd just be getting on with doing their thing unapologetically without feeling the need to broadcast that they weren't apologetic about it...or put in time and effort persuading complete strangers that their position is fair, reasonable and right.

 

Quoted for truth. That says it all.

[sally4sara]

No empathy, no remorse, a "I don't give a damn just as long as I get what I want."

 

And......obviously there was a point in time when what I wanted took precedence over the above feelings. Not a pretty picture is it?

 

I agree; its not a pretty picture but hey! there are worse things in life than a learning experience that lends you personal growth.

[jthorne]

It isn't jealousy - so by your logic above, you must then see have no trouble seeing how an unapologetic OW constitutes a real threat.

 

Sorry you feel so threatened....

I certainly thank you for your sympathy, but I'm confused what kind of threat to which you are referring.

[OWoman]

What happened to the OP of this thread?

I'm sincerely interested to know if she is receiving the responses she thought she would.

 

The responses she THOUGHT she would get - pretty much. A great deal of off-topic general slagging off of OWs rather than actually addressing what was written in the OP (but thanks to those who did )

 

To try to bring it back on topic, what I was quoted in the OP was that uOW tend to be more confident etc etc than the desperate OW who spends her life waiting for MM to fix it. Who sits at home cleaning the litter box rather than living her life. What was said was that the uOW is a much bigger threat to the marriage than the OW generally caricatured; the "catlady" OW. (CLOW is the woman who is at her MM's beck and call, sits at home just waiting for his call, eating tv dinners and feeding her 20 cats hoping that he will call her again soon since it has been 4 days...

 

That is why uOW affect some posters so, because they know she is someone who lives her life, and makes sure she loves her life. The "catlady" OW they so often like to depict most OW as being,is no serious threat at all, since she is so pitiful that no man in his right mind would throw away everything he spent his life working for in order to spend his life hanging out with "catlady". That explains why they like OWs who fit this caricature so much, they are "catlady" OWs whose MMs dump them. More reassurance for them that the OW they HOPE is the only kind their H encounters is of the catlady variety. Were he to encounter an uOW, they would likely not take it all so lightly.

 

Nowhere did the OP claim that the uOW was more ANYTHING than the BW. Reading that in was pure projection on the part of posters who did so. What it compared were two species of OW, positing that one would present a greater threat than the other - and that that would influence the type or amount of support offered.

 

("Support" may be the wrong word, since some OWs are not seeking support. But I suppose what I meant was the opposite of hostility - some OWs are lightning rods to attract hostility while others are treated to smiles and knitting patterns.)

[someday]

IMO, a truly unapologetic OW wouldn’t help hide the A from the W. She would not jump thru the hoops that MM places in front of her. She wouldn’t hide in the background of his life or whatever she does to keep the A going. So, unless you are openly romantic with the MM in front of his W then you are not as unapologetic as you’d like to think you are….but I can understand why a self-proclaimed uOW would hide and such…I can understand why she needs to believe that she is a threat…I can understand why she’s gonna keep on hiding and throwing rocks…and I’ll pray that she will find her good path again.

[JaneyAmazed]

To feel completely unapologetic with regard to an action that you knew had caused pain to another, I think you'd need to either have no internal code of ethics at all - or you would need to feel very clear that your actions had been consistent with your internal code of ethics, which (you would also be clear) was a fair and balanced code.

 

Even then, I think most people will feel bad when they know their actions have caused real emotional pain - of the sort that will be hard to recover from - to another person. Such is the nature of inner conflict and morally challenging decisions. We can feel 95% sure that we've followed the correct course of action, but when we witness another person's pained response to that action there's that element of "could I have handled this better? Is there a way of easing this person's pain without compromising my principles?"

 

For somebody to announce themselves as unapologetic - as in the "unapologetic other woman" one poster touts herself as - smacks of bullsh*t. If there were no internal conflict, surely they'd just be getting on with doing their thing unapologetically without feeling the need to broadcast that they weren't apologetic about it...or put in time and effort persuading complete strangers that their position is fair, reasonable and right.

 

 

This is what I've been thinking but wasn't sure exactly what a UOW was. I'd never heard of an UOW until I found this forum. I wondered too why someone who has no internal conflict would care why complete strangers would or wouldn't approve, or why it keeps coming up thread after thread.

[donnamaybe]

It isn't jealousy - so by your logic above, you must then see have no trouble seeing how an unapologetic OW constitutes a real threat.

 

Sorry you feel so threatened....

And I've been bashed around on here by people telling me I have no right to tell anyone else how they feel. Hmmm...

[donnamaybe]

This is what I've been thinking but wasn't sure exactly what a UOW was. I'd never heard of an UOW until I found this forum. I wondered too why someone who has no internal conflict would care why complete strangers would or wouldn't approve, or why it keeps coming up thread after thread.

I know, huh?! There must be SOMETHING bothering them about it.

[sally4sara]

Wow! You're either "my wants, my needs, to hell with anything else" or you're a pitiful wretch with no life clinging to a WS to make you complete.

 

So lets see, how many targets now? All lined up: easily influenced married men, their no doubt inferior wives and any AP who feels bad about being a part of the mix.

 

Lovely.

 

Yes someone likes thinking of themselves as threatening. How does that get fed after marriage?

[donnamaybe]

Wow! You're either "my wants, my needs, to hell with anything else" or you're a pitiful wretch with no life clinging to a WS to make you complete.

 

So lets see, how many targets now? All lined up: easily influenced married men, their no doubt inferior wives and any AP who feels bad about being a part of the mix.

 

Lovely.

 

Yes someone likes thinking of themselves as threatening. How does that get fed after marriage?

:lmao:

 

Very nicely summed up, s4s. Well done.

[OWoman]

This is what I've been thinking but wasn't sure exactly what a UOW was. I'd never heard of an UOW until I found this forum. I wondered too why someone who has no internal conflict would care why complete strangers would or wouldn't approve, or why it keeps coming up thread after thread.

 

I can only speak for myself here, not for anyone else (unapologetic or otherwise). I certainly never had any internal conflict during the A, nor do I now - but there are some OWs who come here as noobs, not seeking to escape from their As but seeking support from other OWs or seeking advice on some particular aspect of the A, who get blasted and bullied and treated very unkindly once it's clear that their intentions are not to go NC and repent, repent! It's on behalf of those noob OWs, and in the interests of trying to keep the OW & OM forum a place where OWs and OMs can feel safe to post, that I insist on being visible and making my stance known. Some OWs live in places where they do not feel safe discussing their R among RL friends or family, and need this online space. I feel it is important for them to know that they're not alone, and that there is nothing wrong with their position - much like gay and lesbian activists feel the need to be visible so that other gay or lesbian people can feel safe and accepting of who they are and the Rs they conduct.

[silktricks]

The responses she THOUGHT she would get - pretty much. A great deal of off-topic general slagging off of OWs rather than actually addressing what was written in the OP (but thanks to those who did )

 

To try to bring it back on topic, what I was quoted in the OP was that uOW tend to be more confident etc etc than the desperate OW who spends her life waiting for MM to fix it. Who sits at home cleaning the litter box rather than living her life. What was said was that the uOW is a much bigger threat to the marriage than the OW generally caricatured; the "catlady" OW. (CLOW is the woman who is at her MM's beck and call, sits at home just waiting for his call, eating tv dinners and feeding her 20 cats hoping that he will call her again soon since it has been 4 days...

 

Well, first, I doubt that the caricature described above would attract anyone in the first place. However, I have posted here for a long time and frankly have never seen any BS (even in caricature) describe an OW such as you describe, nor have I seen any OW such as you describe here. (Why do you so often carry descriptions to extremes? Though much of the time I enjoy your postings, it seems that most of your energy goes into stirring wrath, as opposed to valid discussion.)

 

That is why uOW affect some posters so, because they know she is someone who lives her life, and makes sure she loves her life. The "catlady" OW they so often like to depict most OW as being,is no serious threat at all, since she is so pitiful that no man in his right mind would throw away everything he spent his life working for in order to spend his life hanging out with "catlady". That explains why they like OWs who fit this caricature so much, they are "catlady" OWs whose MMs dump them. More reassurance for them that the OW they HOPE is the only kind their H encounters is of the catlady variety. Were he to encounter an uOW, they would likely not take it all so lightly.

As I said above, no BS I've ever seen as described an OW even slightly such as you have described here. But to be completely honest, the uOW such as you describe would be the extreme LEAST type of woman that I would "fear". Though in honesty, I would not fear any. Though most men (and women) prefer associating with people who have self-confidence, there is IMO a huge HUGE difference between self-confidence and the self-aggrandizing, arrogant, ego-drive person your friend described.

 

Nowhere did the OP claim that the uOW was more ANYTHING than the BW. Reading that in was pure projection on the part of posters who did so. What it compared were two species of OW, positing that one would present a greater threat than the other - and that that would influence the type or amount of support offered.

obviously you are "splitting hairs", as there is an implicit claim that the uOW is more EVERYTHING than the BW, as why else would she supposedly "fear" the uOW.

 

("Support" may be the wrong word, since some OWs are not seeking support. But I suppose what I meant was the opposite of hostility - some OWs are lightning rods to attract hostility while others are treated to smiles and knitting patterns.)

Some people are lightning rods to hostility - IRL as well as on-line. As someone I know well says: If one person doesn't like you, assume it's the one person. If everyone doesn't like you, look to yourself.

 

But to once again answer your original "question". I do not fear any OW, be she the unapologetic other woman you have described, the very sad "cat-lady" OW you described or any variant in between.

Edited February 3, 2011 by silktricks

[OWoman]

IMO, a truly unapologetic OW wouldn’t help hide the A from the W. She would not jump thru the hoops that MM places in front of her. She wouldn’t hide in the background of his life or whatever she does to keep the A going. So, unless you are openly romantic with the MM in front of his W then you are not as unapologetic as you’d like to think you are…

 

Well, none of that applied to me. We certainly did not hide the A, and I certainly did not jump through any hoops (not that my H placed any). I was never in the background of his life, and probably the only reason we were not openly romantic in front of his then-W was because she was never in the same place we were. It was simply never a possibility that has ever come up. To date we have only once ever "bumped into" each other somewhere and we were certainly being ourselves (openly romantic) and she disappeared as fast as she could. I have every reason to believe that had that happened during the A, it would have been much the same.

[OWoman]

obviously you are "splitting hairs", as there is an implicit claim that the uOW is more EVERYTHING than the BW, as why else would she supposedly "fear" the uOW.

 

I implied nothing. The comparison between BW and OW was never part of my intention. I am not one to mince words - had I intended that, I would have said it.

 

Some people are lightning rods to hostility - IRL as well as on-line. As my husband says: If one person doesn't like you, assume it's the one person. If everyone doesn't like you, look to yourself.

 

Well, I'd tend to agree with that - since it's only the handful of people here that show me hostility, and none at all IRL (aside from the occasional road rager who can't stand being overtaken by a woman ) I do assume it's "the one person" and not myself.

 

But to once again answer your original "question". I do not fear any OW, be she the unapologetic other woman you have described, the very sad "cat-lady" OW you described or any variant in between.

 

Nor would you have cause to, Silk. I don't see you as someone a WS would risk losing.

[jthorne]

The responses she THOUGHT she would get - pretty much. A great deal of off-topic general slagging off of OWs rather than actually addressing what was written in the OP (but thanks to those who did )

 

To try to bring it back on topic, what I was quoted in the OP was that uOW tend to be more confident etc etc than the desperate OW who spends her life waiting for MM to fix it. Who sits at home cleaning the litter box rather than living her life. What was said was that the uOW is a much bigger threat to the marriage than the OW generally caricatured; the "catlady" OW. (CLOW is the woman who is at her MM's beck and call, sits at home just waiting for his call, eating tv dinners and feeding her 20 cats hoping that he will call her again soon since it has been 4 days...

 

That is why uOW affect some posters so, because they know she is someone who lives her life, and makes sure she loves her life. The "catlady" OW they so often like to depict most OW as being,is no serious threat at all, since she is so pitiful that no man in his right mind would throw away everything he spent his life working for in order to spend his life hanging out with "catlady". That explains why they like OWs who fit this caricature so much, they are "catlady" OWs whose MMs dump them. More reassurance for them that the OW they HOPE is the only kind their H encounters is of the catlady variety. Were he to encounter an uOW, they would likely not take it all so lightly.

 

Nowhere did the OP claim that the uOW was more ANYTHING than the BW. Reading that in was pure projection on the part of posters who did so. What it compared were two species of OW, positing that one would present a greater threat than the other - and that that would influence the type or amount of support offered.

 

("Support" may be the wrong word, since some OWs are not seeking support. But I suppose what I meant was the opposite of hostility - some OWs are lightning rods to attract hostility while others are treated to smiles and knitting patterns.)

This post makes me very sad. Both of the scenarios you provide reek of desperation.

Why any woman would be that desperate to act in either fashion uOW or CLOW is very very sad indeed.

 

Thanks for posting it, though. It shows that perhaps I should show more empathy to uOW's; they obviously need it.

 

ETA, come to think of it, this thread has been a big help to me. I originally just chalked uOW's up as sociopaths. Reading this thread has shown me that they are just broken people in need of compassion.

So thanks again for posting it.

Edited February 3, 2011 by jthorne

[OWoman]

This post makes me very sad. Both of the scenarios you provide reek of desperation.

 

I can understand feeling that about the CLOW. However,

 

That is why uOW affect some posters so, because they know she is someone who lives her life, and makes sure she loves her life.

 

I'm not sure what's so "reeking of desperation" about living and loving one's life...? Perhaps you could explain?

[silktricks]

I implied nothing. The comparison between BW and OW was never part of my intention. I am not one to mince words - had I intended that, I would have said it.

 

.

 

:lmao: True, you do not mince words. However, I didn't say that you made the implication. It was your friend's words that implied the comparison between BW and OW.

[sally4sara]

Something tells me that if the friend's words were not insulting they wouldn't have been interesting enough to share.

Its not suggested that the threat is to apologetic OW, but rather BS. Later claiming it wasn't the intent to insult any BS is a bit thin. Especially when the question was also posed to non AP such as myself who can't speak to the difference in mindset between an uOW and an apologetic one, but rather only the impression the difference lends. So right there it becomes a question of "are you threatened; well ARE YOU?"

 

Would anyone be stunned to learn that support doesn't seem to be needed by someone claiming to feel no remorse or problems in their current situation? Whats to support? Nah not buying it. This was just a sneaky jab.

 

So in the interest of being topical; yes I'd have trouble lending support. It wouldn't even occur to me they would NEED support. Yes I would refrain from cheering someone on and calling it "support" when I only see the pain it stands to cause others. I'm sure criminals are happy when they successfully commit a crime and gain from it. Would it be great or admirable to cheered them on and called it "just being supportive"?