Unapologetic OWs - a threat?

[donnamaybe]

And the reason why most probably don't want to take that route is because automatically trust is going to be an issue and a whole lot of questions to follow about the "person" of interest. It's easier for the WS to say nothing and not reap the consquences of admitting interest or wanting to be with someone else. Just my 2 cents.

 

Mimo --That made me LOL. Cute.

Mimo, that WAS funny! And I completely agree!

 

Actually, WWIU, if my baby was THAT candid with me, it would tell me just how absolutely and completely honest he really is! It would bolster my view of him as a man of integrity. Much better than sneaking around, for sure.

[silktricks]

I doubt very much many WS's have said that last part about being interested in someone else. I'm sure that if anyone in a marriage was told,"Hey, we're letting life get in the way and growing apart, actually I've met someone I've connected with..." Would change things pretty damn fast. The thing is, I bet not many actually SAY those words, other than, we're growing apart, what can we do to make things better..

 

No, they probably don't say that last part. But frankly, by the time that happens, the problems are HUGE, to say the least, and they've felt discounted so many times by saying whatever it is that they have said, that they've by now convinced themselves that their partner really doesn't give a d*mn anyway.

 

Just how much guts do you honestly think a WS has anyway? It's so easy to say, "well he/she should do this or that". Don't you see? It's ALWAYS easier to see what someone else should do. We aren't in the middle of it - they are. You know the old saying about can't see the forest for the trees? Well, that pretty much the crux of the problem. My husband was completely convinced that I didn't love him anymore. I was pretty much completely convinced of the same. The truth of it was that we both completely loved the other and had a truly terrible way of communicating that fact.

 

Please don't get the idea that I'm condoning an affair, but for crying out loud, this is the OW/OM board, not the infidelity board. If we're going to post here, then it seems that people who post should at least ATTEMPT to understand why affairs happen, and not just say "you shouldn't do it". Well, geez, there's lots of things that shouldn't be done and are. Don't ya think that maybe getting to the root cause may help more than beating someone about the head and shoulders? (I'm not saying you do that WWIU, because I don't think you do, but plenty of other people do so.)

[donnamaybe]

Um, yeah. And one of the "root causes" is wanting two lives. If a M is THAT bad, end it. But, no. There are too many who want their little home life intact, complete with laundry being done and meals being cooked when they're done living in their other world.

 

I don't see too many reasons being touted as to why A's happen other than "it's the BS's fault for being smug and complacent." Do you really think THAT kind of attitude is delving into the issue? Really?

[Snowflower]

No, they probably don't say that last part. But frankly, by the time that happens, the problems are HUGE, to say the least, and they've felt discounted so many times by saying whatever it is that they have said, that they've by now convinced themselves that their partner really doesn't give a d*mn anyway.

 

Just how much guts do you honestly think a WS has anyway? It's so easy to say, "well he/she should do this or that". Don't you see? It's ALWAYS easier to see what someone else should do. We aren't in the middle of it - they are. You know the old saying about can't see the forest for the trees? Well, that pretty much the crux of the problem. My husband was completely convinced that I didn't love him anymore. I was pretty much completely convinced of the same. The truth of it was that we both completely loved the other and had a truly terrible way of communicating that fact.

 

Please don't get the idea that I'm condoning an affair, but for crying out loud, this is the OW/OM board, not the infidelity board. If we're going to post here, then it seems that people who post should at least ATTEMPT to understand why affairs happen, and not just say "you shouldn't do it". Well, geez, there's lots of things that shouldn't be done and are. Don't ya think that maybe getting to the root cause may help more than beating someone about the head and shoulders? (I'm not saying you do that WWIU, because I don't think you do, but plenty of other people do so.)

 

 

Well said, silktricks, as usual. I completely agree and this is one of the best posts I think I have ever read here. I agree that this is not an appropriate board for this topic and it should go to infidelity...

 

But like silk mentioned, just posting "you shouldn't do that" isn't helpful. And that goes for here and infidelity.

 

I had to understand why my H had an affair. I came to these boards for help and they helped me more than therapy ever did. I learned a lot here. But those black and white responses never helped me and I suspect, don't help most others either. And that goes for whether a poster is a BS, OM/OW or a WS.

 

OW, I apologize for the t/j. Silk brought up an excellent point that deserved a response. Perhaps a thread will be started in infidelity...it's been a rough and tumble forum lately.

[Snowflower]

Um, yeah. And one of the "root causes" is wanting two lives. If a M is THAT bad, end it. But, no. There are too many who want their little home life intact, complete with laundry being done and meals being cooked when they're done living in their other world.

 

I don't see too many reasons being touted as to why A's happen other than "it's the BS's fault for being smug and complacent." Do you really think THAT kind of attitude is delving into the issue? Really?

 

Donna, I love your wit but I gotta disagree with you here.

 

I've never been one to believe that most MP are cake-eaters. Sure, some are and IMO they are usually the serial cheaters. But I think most MPs are hurting badly for whatever reason and choose a very poor way to handle it.

 

As for the "smug and complacent" comment well, for some it seems the BS must be blamed at all costs, here and IRL.

[OWoman]

No, they probably don't say that last part. But frankly, by the time that happens, the problems are HUGE, to say the least, and they've felt discounted so many times by saying whatever it is that they have said, that they've by now convinced themselves that their partner really doesn't give a d*mn anyway.

 

Just how much guts do you honestly think a WS has anyway? It's so easy to say, "well he/she should do this or that". Don't you see? It's ALWAYS easier to see what someone else should do. We aren't in the middle of it - they are. You know the old saying about can't see the forest for the trees? Well, that pretty much the crux of the problem. My husband was completely convinced that I didn't love him anymore. I was pretty much completely convinced of the same. The truth of it was that we both completely loved the other and had a truly terrible way of communicating that fact.

 

Please don't get the idea that I'm condoning an affair, but for crying out loud, this is the OW/OM board, not the infidelity board. If we're going to post here, then it seems that people who post should at least ATTEMPT to understand why affairs happen, and not just say "you shouldn't do it". Well, geez, there's lots of things that shouldn't be done and are. Don't ya think that maybe getting to the root cause may help more than beating someone about the head and shoulders? (I'm not saying you do that WWIU, because I don't think you do, but plenty of other people do so.)

 

Silk - thank you for restoring some sanity and reason to this thread.

 

(And I agree with what you posted).

[silktricks]

Um, yeah. And one of the "root causes" is wanting two lives. If a M is THAT bad, end it. But, no. There are too many who want their little home life intact, complete with laundry being done and meals being cooked when they're done living in their other world.

 

I don't see too many reasons being touted as to why A's happen other than "it's the BS's fault for being smug and complacent." Do you really think THAT kind of attitude is delving into the issue? Really?

 

No, I don't think that is delving into the issue anymore than saying that one of the "root causes" is wanting two lives. Both are demeaning and belittling.

 

I wasn't "smug and complacent", but neither did my husband want two lives. The marriage had problems. We were both in pain. There are no simple answers or solutions and to come here and pretend that there are is simply that, pretense. Three people were badly injured in our situation. Just because the OW knew very well that he was married, does not mean her pain was less. It wasn't. I don't know her, and frankly have no desire to, but given the length of time and extent of her efforts to rekindle the affair, she was injured. Probably quite badly.

 

Between myself and my husband, and can tell you categorically that I have recovered better than he has. I have forgiven him and am still attempting to help him forgive himself. So I - the injured party - is in better shape than the WS that you so cavalierly dispose of by saying he "wanted two lives". No, he didn't. What he wanted was to be treated well, to be loved, to be cherished - same as me.

[donnamaybe]

Donna, I love your wit but I gotta disagree with you here.

 

I've never been one to believe that most MP are cake-eaters. Sure, some are and IMO they are usually the serial cheaters. But I think most MPs are hurting badly for whatever reason and choose a very poor way to handle it.

I never said "most" are. I merely said that ONE of the root causes was wanting two lives. I think most have an internal struggle, whether it be from dissatisfaction in their M life or from some early onset troubles brought on by childhood trauma. However, I would definitely say that most do NOT leave their M's when they've been involved in a years long A. For those that HAVE left, it's happened much quicker than years down the road. Therefore, the two lives exist for as many years as the OW/OM allow it, or until the BS finds out.

 

As for the "smug and complacent" comment well, for some it seems the BS must be blamed at all costs, here and IRL.

Don't I know it!

[OWoman]

I've never been one to believe that most MP are cake-eaters. Sure, some are and IMO they are usually the serial cheaters. But I think most MPs are hurting badly for whatever reason and choose a very poor way to handle it.

 

Agree with this.

 

As for the "smug and complacent" comment well, for some it seems the BS must be blamed at all costs, here and IRL.

 

To provide some context for that comment - since it got buried pages back:

 

I was asked how I would react if my H chose to have an A - would I still feel "unapologetic" about As. I replied that if my H told me he wanted to shag someone else, I would retain a right of veto, but I was OK with the concept. If he felt that he couldn't tell me, and simply went and did it - I would see that as an indictment of the state of the M, for which I would share responsibility.

 

Somewhere along the line someone twisted that into a claim (that hadn't been made, but was being assumed to have been made) that a BS necessarily bears full responsibility for an A because they were smug and complacent.

 

If you read what was actually said, you will see that I certainly didn't say that, and nor - to the best of my knowledge - did any one else, besides those making the accusation that it was said.

 

And if someone refuses to see what's there because their agenda blinds them to it - well, there's not a lot one can do.

[OWoman]

For those that HAVE left, it's happened much quicker than years down the road.

 

My H left. After 3 years. I'm not sure what you mean by "years down the road" and if three years qualifies as "much quicker" than that, but that's when he left.

 

And, according to other threads here comparing experiences, that's about the norm. (I think Mino said hers was 6 years, IIRC)

[donnamaybe]

My H left. After 3 years. I'm not sure what you mean by "years down the road" and if three years qualifies as "much quicker" than that, but that's when he left.

 

And, according to other threads here comparing experiences, that's about the norm. (I think Mino said hers was 6 years, IIRC)

That's two.

[OWoman]

That's two.

 

That wasn't the point. The point was, it took three years in one case and six in the other. Which would appear to qualify as "years down the road" to me, unless I misunderstood what you meant by that claim.

[donnamaybe]

However, I would definitely say that most do NOT leave their M's when they've been involved in a years long A.

I've underlined, bolded, and italicized the pertinent part of my statement for your edification.

 

I guess I left the word "usually" out of the subsequent sentence.

[OWoman]

For those that HAVE left, it's happened much quicker than years down the road.

 

 

... and I've bolded the relevant bits, for yours

[Snowflower]

 

 

To provide some context for that comment - since it got buried pages back:

 

I was asked how I would react if my H chose to have an A - would I still feel "unapologetic" about As. I replied that if my H told me he wanted to shag someone else, I would retain a right of veto, but I was OK with the concept. If he felt that he couldn't tell me, and simply went and did it - I would see that as an indictment of the state of the M, for which I would share responsibility.

 

Somewhere along the line someone twisted that into a claim (that hadn't been made, but was being assumed to have been made) that a BS necessarily bears full responsibility for an A because they were smug and complacent.

 

If you read what was actually said, you will see that I certainly didn't say that, and nor - to the best of my knowledge - did any one else, besides those making the accusation that it was said.

 

And if someone refuses to see what's there because their agenda blinds them to it - well, there's not a lot one can do.

 

OW, thank you for taking the time to explain. I understand better the point you are trying to make.

[Distant78]

Which is vacant because the M is not being prioritsed by both parties.

 

No only by one selfish party. Don't get it twisted you know that it's true.

[NoIDidn't]

As the OP of this thread, I resent your accusation that it was " designed, very transparently I might add, to denigrate an entire subset of people on LS." That is a blatant lie and your repeating it as often as you like does not give it any truth, it just makes you a liar.

 

I remember telling a certain poster that they were repeating a lie over and over again, and was reported for doing so.

 

But I didn't add "it just makes you a liar", I only said it was repeating a lie. Because it was. But this is actually accusing someone of being a liar.

 

Either way, the accusation seems true enough to me or the comments about that type of woman not being a threat wouldn't have been made.

[NoIDidn't]

Interesting how people project their own views of intention, despite what the OP explicitly states intention to be...

 

The thread was a response to a situation which had been noted of certain posters (which I will term the AAB - the anti-affair brigade) falling all over what has been characterised in the OP by the quoted friend as the "CLOW" (the cat lady OW, who self-describes as having no life except to wait in passive suspension for a crumb of attention from her MM, whose posts are filled with self-denigration and self-loathing to the extent of seeming unreal to most other OWs) to offer support and welcome, because the "CLOW" complies with the agenda and the image (yes, call it a caricature if you must) that they fondly ascribe to the OW so as to feel more secure within themselves. And so, the AAB finds it easy to offer support to the CLOW, while they offer hostility to the uOW... apparently, from what has been observed.

 

The thread sought to test that, by asking OWs explicitly whether that mirrored their experience, and by asking others whether they found it easier to support "repentant" (or CLOW) OWs, and many posters responded to the question in a helpful manner.

 

Some of course found it all too threatening and used it as a springboard for the same old same old... and then claimed that that was the intention of the thread, which of course wasn't remotely the intention, had they bothered to read the OP.

 

As to the use of particular phrases in the OP - it was a quote from a friend. I can't pretend to know exactly what her intentions were with every single word, but I would imagine that the phrase "self-centred" wasn't too far off the mark. "self -centred" is different to selfish or egotistical. It means, literally, being centred on oneself, which is psychologically healthy and robust. If one's psychological centre is outside of oneself, one becomes dependent and vulnerable to the whims of others, and lacks the agency and control over one's own life. And yes, being centred on oneself is certainly an attractive trait - a woman that radiates confidence and self-assurance is far more attractive to a psychologically healthy man than one who is clingy, neurotic or a doormat with a personality vacuum. And my personal experience certainly backs that up.

 

The projected intention must not have been too far off. Still trying to pass off such logic as that of this anonymous "Friend".

 

Look, OWoman, you can't have it both ways. First you state that the OP are the words of a "FRIEND", but take offense to the pretty obvious reading of the cat lady statements as if they were your own. Thing is, if I posted the words of a friend to get responses, I wouldn't waste my time defending their words if my only intention was to get other's thoughts on them. Methinks the lady (?) .....

 

And then the above post.

 

It would be very nice if the made up terminology from your other board was left there where it belongs. CLOW, AAB, BBW? The very thing that you say you come here to support, you damage when you engage in such pettiness.

 

And the redefining of "self-centered"? LOL. Yeah, the last time I used self-centered it didn't mean egotistical either.

 

<washing my hands>

[alexandria35]

No, they probably don't say that last part. But frankly, by the time that happens, the problems are HUGE, to say the least, and they've felt discounted so many times by saying whatever it is that they have said, that they've by now convinced themselves that their partner really doesn't give a d*mn anyway.

 

Just how much guts do you honestly think a WS has anyway? It's so easy to say, "well he/she should do this or that". Don't you see? It's ALWAYS easier to see what someone else should do. We aren't in the middle of it - they are. You know the old saying about can't see the forest for the trees? Well, that pretty much the crux of the problem. My husband was completely convinced that I didn't love him anymore. I was pretty much completely convinced of the same. The truth of it was that we both completely loved the other and had a truly terrible way of communicating that fact.

 

Please don't get the idea that I'm condoning an affair, but for crying out loud, this is the OW/OM board, not the infidelity board. If we're going to post here, then it seems that people who post should at least ATTEMPT to understand why affairs happen, and not just say "you shouldn't do it". Well, geez, there's lots of things that shouldn't be done and are. Don't ya think that maybe getting to the root cause may help more than beating someone about the head and shoulders? (I'm not saying you do that WWIU, because I don't think you do, but plenty of other people do so.)

 

Well the thing is that I actually had a longterm relationship where my SO actually did come to me and tell me he was developing an interest in someone else. I was with this guy for 7 years and he was an alcoholic. Over the years we had built up some solid resentments towards each other. As you said in an earlier post we did sometimes repeat ourselves over and over to each other, trying to get our needs met. Sometimes there were slight efforts and improvements made, sometimes not. When he told me he was developing an attraction towards another woman you better believe I took notice and listened to what he had to say. His reason for telling me was not out of anger or a desire to be cruel, he was fearful of what this meant for us and he wanted to talk to me about it. I always had so much respect for him for that. Less than 2 years later we decided to part ways as it had become clear that we were not well suited to each others. It was sad but thankfully neither of us had cheated so we didn't have deal with that pain on top of everything else.

 

You make it sound like it's delusional to expect this kind of honesty or to expect your partner to end the relationship without resorting to cheating. I guess we are all products of our experiences and due to my own experience I have come to expect total honesty and respect.

[alexandria35]

The thread sought to test that, by asking OWs explicitly whether that mirrored their experience, and by asking others whether they found it easier to support "repentant" (or CLOW) OWs, and many posters responded to the question in a helpful manner.

 

 

 

I'm curious as to why you believe that all OW fall into either the unaplogetic OW or cat lady OW category. I'm sure not all repentant OW were OW who stayed home cleaning up kitty litter and waiting to get some crumbs tossed by the MM. Just because an OW turns away from her affair and repents doesn't mean she wasn't also intellectual, self suffiecient, self assured, and all the other wonderful qualities that you believe yourself to possess.

[LifesontheUp]

This does not negate my point that, if both parties prioritised the M, this would not happen. There would be no need for a "side piece" (whatever that is Is it a piece of american furniture, similar to a welsh dresser?) to augment their SO if their M was meeting their needs.

 

Disagree....been around to long to see that for some prioritising their marriage doesn't mean they will not stray. There are plenty who have said that their marriage was good but they still engaged in an affair. The issues are with the WS and nobody else. Cake eater, selfish and self centred spring to mind.

 

There are plenty of OM/OW that have been thrown under the bus on d-day. They haven't filled the vacancy as you put it. Like I said, often there isn't a vacancy to fill, it was a temporary position as once d-day arrives the W/H isn't replaced, but the OW/OM thrown aside.

Edited February 10, 2011 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Tony]

If the OP's concern can't be addressed in some 450 posts it never will. Thanks to all who participated.