Unapologetic OWs - a threat?

[pureinheart]

I will quote this OP again, as I wanted to address the actual question first.

 

This is difficult to answer. When first coming to this forum, the first one I had ever been BTW, it was priddy supportive. Possible reasons concerning support, I was already in a NC mode, and it was just plain supportive at that time.

 

One thing I know for sure is there wasn't the darkness that I see now, and when returning over a year ago.. The bitterness and hate is rampant IMO.

 

To add to the OP, with my own quote. The root to bitterness and hate is fear, the fear of the unknown, a perceived threat whether it is real or not.

 

IMO the WS or the AP is not the enemy when this type of hate is present, it is the hate.

[whichwayisup]

The root to bitterness and hate is fear, the fear of the unknown, a perceived threat whether it is real or not.

 

I agree. The unknown can bring out alot of feelings in people, it applies to BS, OW/OM, MM/MW. It's unsettling and nerve wracking.

 

But in all honesty, I think the issues here that happen on LS are more ego based and personal, this poster doesn't get along with that poster, no respect given either way. Not all, but a handful.

 

It's tiresome to keep reading and having more or less the same discussion day after day..

 

I mentioned this before, it's like these types of threads take away from those who are in need of help. Some days newbies are on and only have one or two replies, all the meanwhile, the discussion threads have tons of replies.

[herenow]

To add to the OP, with my own quote. The root to bitterness and hate is fear, the fear of the unknown, a perceived threat whether it is real or not.

 

IMO the WS or the AP is not the enemy when this type of hate is present, it is the hate.

 

There has to be a source of this hate you talk about. Personally, I'm not sure where you are seeing such hate and bitterness. Could it be that the hate and bitterness is what is perceived?

[anne1707]

For me, the "unapologetic OW" is someone who has no empathy, no real depth of emotion and an inability to really care for others. They are selfish, arrogant, egotistical (e.g. thinking they are more intelligent or better lovers). Their behaviour is that of a predator with no consideration of the consequences for anybody else - even the MM may be as much of a victim as the BS at times.

 

I read out the OP to my husband and he just laughed at how ridiculous it is that someone could consider the "unapologetic OW" as more desirable or more attractive than us mere mortals. What kind of doormat must fall for her behaviours as he must surely be submissive to fit in with all her demands.

 

The "unapologetic OW" is nothing to fear at all. If anything, she deserves sympathy for being so delusional.

[Owl]

One thing I know for sure is there wasn't the darkness that I see now, and when returning over a year ago.. The bitterness and hate is rampant IMO.

 

I will agree. In my six years plus of being here on LS, I've never seen the kind of deliberate 'in-fighting' that has been on here in the last few months.

 

The deliberate attempts to provoke, antagonize, segregate, enflame, and incite strife on this board are off the charts compared to what they "used to be".

[pureinheart]

There has to be a source of this hate you talk about. Personally, I'm not sure where you are seeing such hate and bitterness. Could it be that the hate and bitterness is what is perceived?

 

No, I 've learned to trust what I see, it is evident, not you, although this is a good example of gaslighting in general.

[herenow]

No, I 've learned to trust what I see, it is evident, not you, although this is a good example of gaslighting in general.

 

Maybe what you call hate, I call reality. Maybe what you call bitter, I call pain from reality. Maybe I'd just rather see the world as it is even if I don't like it.

 

Gaslighting would be saying that affairs don't cause pain and asking people to hide that pain from others. I guess we will just have to disagree.

[merlin2]

The unapologetic OW..hmmm...methinks she's deluding herself if she thinks she matters a great deal to the MM apart from sex .

statistics prove time and again that men have an extra-marital affair for sex,attention,a buzz..

They almost NEVER leave their wives,they love their wives ,but too many OW's cant seem to get this.

Women on the other hand have affairs for different reasons,and will be more likely to leave a marriage.They cant separate love and sex like men do.

But what's sad is some women will go through their whole lives without gaining an ounce of emotional intelligence and always remain prey for these sleazy predators.The men that get away with it so long,their wives are often complicit.Both have invested financially into the relationship,the wife is the sort who feels secure financially,doesnt sleep with him often,they have kids etc..she doesnt to make him feel special anymore..so hey,he goes and gets his buzz from an OW(what sort of man does it take to do all this?) a sleaze,thats what...

wake up and smell the coffee..you're being used ,and its been going on through history.

So many single guys out there,there must be some women who see married men as a challenge...and are still challenging 10 years later!

Life's too short..

[blizzard]

I think most OW essentially want to be apologetic...and feel remorse. But once the affair has come to light, there seems to be boundaries put into place. You are damned if you apologize and damned if you don't. Would the BS believe the OW's sincerity? How does the OW show the magnitude of remorse to the BS? And in most situations, the WS fails to come clean with the truth in it's entirety...or gaslights the BS. In many cases it is the WS word against the OW. Meaning, WS seems more credible to BS.

 

It's just a sticky sitch. A true mess.

[merlin2]

jeez..is there anyone on here sane???

[tami-chan]

Threat? No.

 

But here's my views, pulled from a post I made in another thread here on LS.

 

 

 

This might help explain why the "unapologetic" portion doesn't just get a reaction from BS's here on LS...but often even other OW/OM as well.

 

It's not a threat...but it's the inherent/implied self-centeredness at the expense of others that tends to cause others to react negatively.

 

You are playing with words, Owl. Of course, it is a threat. Anything or anyone who rocks or goes against the status quo is a threat to those whose lives depend on it. We live by certain rules, mores, customs, etc.etc because we crave predictability, stability, etc. We make promises about the future even though we have no idea what the future would bring because it makes us feel secure. These things are not bad....as a matter fact, these things are needed because it makes for order, civility and yes, control in a society.

[donnamaybe]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that people who sleep around with MP are a threat to the moral fabric of society. Isn't that giving them just a tad bit too much power?

 

I don't personally feel threatened by an unapologetic whatever because I know my man wouldn't touch someone like that with his ten foot pole.

[moloko]

Who the affair is with is secondary. Most OW here know that if their AP were not cheating with them they would be cheating with someone else.

 

well then, I guess that makes it a-ok:rolleyes:

[moloko]

For me, the "unapologetic OW" is someone who has no empathy, no real depth of emotion and an inability to really care for others. They are selfish, arrogant, egotistical (e.g. thinking they are more intelligent or better lovers). Their behaviour is that of a predator with no consideration of the consequences for anybody else - even the MM may be as much of a victim as the BS at times.

 

VERY well said.

[Owl]

You are playing with words, Owl. Of course, it is a threat. Anything or anyone who rocks or goes against the status quo is a threat to those whose lives depend on it. We live by certain rules, mores, customs, etc.etc because we crave predictability, stability, etc. We make promises about the future even though we have no idea what the future would bring because it makes us feel secure. These things are not bad....as a matter fact, these things are needed because it makes for order, civility and yes, control in a society.

 

tami, I'm not twisting words, nor am I looking at this from a "society" viewpoint.

 

Perhaps you're right.

 

Perhaps I DO fear someone who is so self-centered, so self-focused on their own pleasure that they simply cannot find it within themselves to care about who they hurt in their singleminded pursuit of their own happiness.

 

That kind of mindset is a bit frightening, now that you put it that way.

 

I don't care for "changes to society"...nor do I view this mindset as a positive thing in ANY fashion. I sure don't think it's what we need in the world...quite the opposite in fact, I think we need much LESS of exactly that kind of mentality.

[woinlove]

I think most OW essentially want to be apologetic...and feel remorse. But once the affair has come to light, there seems to be boundaries put into place. You are damned if you apologize and damned if you don't. Would the BS believe the OW's sincerity? How does the OW show the magnitude of remorse to the BS? And in most situations, the WS fails to come clean with the truth in it's entirety...or gaslights the BS. In many cases it is the WS word against the OW. Meaning, WS seems more credible to BS.

 

It's just a sticky sitch. A true mess.

 

Yes, I agree that even when the OW wants to be apologetic, it is a tricky situation for the reasons you mention. This thread is primarily about OW who self-identify on an anonymous forum, like LS, as unapologetic OW, which seems to mean they see nothing wrong with choosing to become involved with, or even specifically seeking out, married men. They typically argue their happiness and desires are more important than any hurt it might cause others.

 

However, as you mention, being apologetic to the person who typically is hurt the most, the BS of your MM (although it is clear many OW hurt too, some as much as the BS) is a sticky sitch and may not be accepted by the BS anyway. While a remorseful OW may (or may not) offer some small comfort to a BS, typically remorse is a gift to yourself, part of looking at the whole situation, realizing how your actions and choices affected both you and others, and wanting to make different and better choices in the future.

[JaneyAmazed]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that people who sleep around with MP are a threat to the moral fabric of society. Isn't that giving them just a tad bit too much power?

 

I don't personally feel threatened by an unapologetic whatever because I know my man wouldn't touch someone like that with his ten foot pole.

 

 

LOVE IT!!!!!

[Ellin]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that people who sleep around with MP are a threat to the moral fabric of society. Isn't that giving them just a tad bit too much power?

 

I don't personally feel threatened by an unapologetic whatever because I know my man wouldn't touch someone like that with his ten foot pole.

 

Wow, your man is well-equipped, eh.

[Spark1111]

I think most OW essentially want to be apologetic...and feel remorse. But once the affair has come to light, there seems to be boundaries put into place. You are damned if you apologize and damned if you don't. Would the BS believe the OW's sincerity? How does the OW show the magnitude of remorse to the BS? And in most situations, the WS fails to come clean with the truth in it's entirety...or gaslights the BS. In many cases it is the WS word against the OW. Meaning, WS seems more credible to BS.

 

It's just a sticky sitch. A true mess.

 

Do not agree Blizz, and we agree on a lot!

 

I think if the OW is apologetic, she will return a BSs phone call.

 

Jeez, you had the affair, why not own the action?

 

And if she is either unapologetic, or a classic conflict avoider, she will dodge the call under the guise of "he broke the marriage vows, she should be talking to him, not me."

 

As IF he would tell anyone the truth at that point.

[Spark1111]

tami, I'm not twisting words, nor am I looking at this from a "society" viewpoint.

 

Perhaps you're right.

 

Perhaps I DO fear someone who is so self-centered, so self-focused on their own pleasure that they simply cannot find it within themselves to care about who they hurt in their singleminded pursuit of their own happiness.

 

That kind of mindset is a bit frightening, now that you put it that way.

 

I don't care for "changes to society"...nor do I view this mindset as a positive thing in ANY fashion. I sure don't think it's what we need in the world...quite the opposite in fact, I think we need much LESS of exactly that kind of mentality.

 

Tami makes some great points!

 

But I do not equate unapologetic OW with someone who DOES NOT OWN THEIR ACTIONS.

 

Just because you CLAIM TO BE an unapologetic OW, does not make it true!

 

Own your relationship, your actions, your happiness and then you can claim to be an unapologetic OW.

 

As long as you are hiding in the shadows of the marriage, guess what?

 

You are STILL the typical, crumb-eating, mistress.

 

Everything else is smoke and mirrors, IMHO.

[Spark1111]

Yes, I agree that even when the OW wants to be apologetic, it is a tricky situation for the reasons you mention. This thread is primarily about OW who self-identify on an anonymous forum, like LS, as unapologetic OW, which seems to mean they see nothing wrong with choosing to become involved with, or even specifically seeking out, married men. They typically argue their happiness and desires are more important than any hurt it might cause others.

 

However, as you mention, being apologetic to the person who typically is hurt the most, the BS of your MM (although it is clear many OW hurt too, some as much as the BS) is a sticky sitch and may not be accepted by the BS anyway. While a remorseful OW may (or may not) offer some small comfort to a BS, typically remorse is a gift to yourself, part of looking at the whole situation, realizing how your actions and choices affected both you and others, and wanting to make different and better choices in the future.

 

Disagree!

 

Being an unapologetic OW means you put lines in the sand, draw boundaries, and insist on the relationship you want and you deserve.

 

Anything LESS than that, is simply being the OW.

[tami-chan]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that people who sleep around with MP are a threat to the moral fabric of society. Isn't that giving them just a tad bit too much power?

 

If they were not such a threat why would we have laws against adultery? infidelity? Let's not even talk about the history of vicious punishment meted out for breaking these laws!

 

I don't personally feel threatened by an unapologetic whatever because I know my man wouldn't touch someone like that with his ten foot pole.

 

Well, that is, of course, if they want to touch him first -I kid. 'Am happy for you that you are secure in your relationship, though.

[AngeletteX]

It made a lot of sense to me and helped explain why some noobs here, as well as some "older" posters, tend to draw most of the fire. It's probably easier to respond to someone with compassion when you don't view them as representative of a threat, while those who get what they want - which might include someone else's H - are too terrible to contemplate, and must be silenced and neutralised at all costs.

 

So, I'm putting this out there for OWs and OMs of all stripes - do you feel our degree of "unapologeticness" or otherwise contributed to the degree, and kind, of support you received - from other APs, from BSs past and present and from anyone else?

 

And for non-APs - does the degree to which an AP is "unapologetic" influence the degree to which you feel yourself able to provide support (of the kind sought by the OP, not what you might assume the OP might need)?

 

Since I have not needed any kind of emotional support, I don't think I'm qualified to answer your question on a personal level.

 

But from what I have experienced, at least here on LS, there are those who seem to be.....offended, by my happiness.

 

As far as silencing and neutralizing - well, my Tell Me What You Love thread was shut down because of threadjacking.

 

It wasn't inflammatory in the least bit.....so maybe it was threatening? Reading about how normal the day-to-day interactions between lovers are?

[Spark1111]

Since I have not needed any kind of emotional support, I don't think I'm qualified to answer your question on a personal level.

 

But from what I have experienced, at least here on LS, there are those who seem to be.....offended, by my happiness.

 

As far as silencing and neutralizing - well, my Tell Me What You Love thread was shut down because of threadjacking.

 

It wasn't inflammatory in the least bit.....so maybe it was threatening? Reading about how normal the day-to-day interactions between lovers are?

 

Wow! I can SO RELATE! Try starting a thread about the joys of a happy marital reconciliation after an affair!

 

Two threads as spinoffs in the OW/OM forum; one vivisecting a reformed OW and one taking my thread verbatim and vivisecting it to discern how much my fWS must be lying TO ME about his TRUE feelings for his OW!

 

Another OW accusing me of being INSENSITIVE to another OW who just started a heartbreaking thread of her MM leaving her to reconcile with his W, and....let me see,....

 

several nasty and UNREPORTED comments struck by the mods before I ever got to see them!

 

Can you imagine that?

 

Just for being really, really happy with my husband!

[woinlove]

Disagree!

 

Being an unapologetic OW means you put lines in the sand, draw boundaries, and insist on the relationship you want and you deserve.

 

Anything LESS than that, is simply being the OW.

 

Spark, not sure if you are referring to the self-identified ones here, or what Blizzard was referring to about wanting to apologize to the specific BS involved? On the self-identified ones, I was just going by what a couple of them described in threads on the topic, some of whom say they are happy staying the OW and some who ended up marrying the former MM. Perhaps you are saying what unapologetic OW means to you?

 

ETA. Okay, just read your earlier post, Spark, and I see that is your definition. Fair enough. It's a good point.

Edited February 1, 2011 by woinlove