What is the role of social status in an A?

[lovingwhatis]

I would like to pose this question for discussion since i began wondering for the first time ever if exMM high status job had anything to do with me choosing to continue w the EA. Now, dont get me wrong, there were a lot more emotional reasons, yet i remember being somewhat impressed when he handed me his card. A guy i was in love with long time ago worked at the same co. before b school. I chose an artistic path despite the arguments of my parents, and ddn't understand my classmates', bf's career ambitions. But subconsciously i envied them a bit. Afterall, successful careers mean a different lifestyle, opportunities, yada yada.

 

Have you wondered if the status of the AP had something to do with the beginning, and even more so the continuing of the A? I hope this q wont be interpreted as an invitation to exploring the cultural stereotypes, but more as an exploratiin of subonscious motives some may have.

 

Also, i read in another thread that 'status equals power', and wodered how that power transfers in R/As?

[Rose1977]

I have often wondered this as well. My BF who has cheated in the past - several times - has a very high level, high status job and is very well known. I am *not* being cruel when I say this, but he is not the best looking guy in the world. Don't get me wrong, he is very attractive to me or I wouldn't be with him, but he is not a guy most women would stop to look twice at. But there are never a shortage of women who go after him. And, obviously, as mentioned, he has strayed in the past. My point is, I do think that the women who come after him (sometimes very blatantly like when I am standing across the room at a cocktail party or dinner) wouldn't have an interest if they didn't know he had money and status. I could be wrong though.

 

Ironically, I truly could not care less about material things, and all that crap. When we first started dating he bought me a LV bag and I made him give it to his mom. I see no need to be carrying a bag worth more than my car LOL... I do think that many women would want to be with him for financial reasons or to further their own career or because they would find it a turn on that someone considered important in his line of work would find time for them.

 

Once again, I could be way off base here. I can only speak for what I have seen and what I know of some of the women he either cheated with or women who have pursued him.

[OWoman]

Have you wondered if the status of the AP had something to do with the beginning, and even more so the continuing of the A? I hope this q wont be interpreted as an invitation to exploring the cultural stereotypes, but more as an exploratiin of subonscious motives some may have.

 

Also, i read in another thread that 'status equals power', and wodered how that power transfers in R/As?

 

This is an interesting question. There have certainly been OWs on LS who have fallen for rich, powerful or otherwise high-status MMs, and possibly some OMs who have fallen for rich, powerful or otherwise high-status MWs - but equally there have been APs who have fallen for train conductors, military personnel, firefighters, psychologists, teachers, the unemployed... the whole range!

 

In some cases, OWs have (un)consciously "affaired down", choosing a "bad boy" MM as an antidote to their "good girl" lifestyle, while in other cases they have "affaired up", in some kind of aspirational sense. I would guess, though, for most of us, we've chosen the kind of guy we'd have "dated" anyway - someone of the same social status amongst which we'd have chosen any other mate, simply because those are the kind of guys who appeal to us (or, for OMs, the kind of women).

[seren]

Interesting question posed, I so hope it doesn't go off. Thinking on this, at the time of H's A, I was a high level professional, earning almost double H's salary, company car, many perks etc. I was also just getting into politics and had began moving into a different circle of friends who had similar interests.

The OW, was, and please don't interpret this as me being derogatory, it really isn't meant to be, in a totally different social scene from me and employment wise, in a lower end job (God that sounds so snotty). I don't see her as inferior to me, we had very different interests and goals. Given that H was going through a whole raft of feeling not good enough and self esteem issues, it is no wonder that he chose the OW he did. My bad that I didn't notice he was struggling to keep up and was feeling so dammed wretched about his, in his mind, shortcomings.

 

The things he has shared, show that the OW tried to show that she was important in her world (which of course she was) but it sounds like it became a thing of her saying, she would make sure he came home to a meal (I often worked late) had passed a work based exam (I had passed a Law degree) all achievements for us both, albeit in different fields, but he said it made her look like she was trying to say - I am as good as, I will take care of you when she (me) doesn't. It became a competition of sorts.

 

I admit that when I knew who she was, I felt, my God you have cheated on me with her!! I know, sounds very snobby, did it really matter who he had cheated with? Well yes, I came from the same social background, had the same life chances and worked my butt off to get where I was and it seemed to me that I would have been better not working so hard for us, our future, but stayed at home. It doesn't even sound rational, but it was what it was. H says it felt like she was all he deserved, which pees me off no end as it sounds like he is saying she wasn't good enough. Well, I don't play those games at the end of the day, she had the same hopes, fears etc as me. I ended up feeling I wasn't good enough as a home maker, hadn't gone out getting ratted with the rugby crowd, (done that, been there) but prefered meeting friends for a meal and conversation.

 

H is very proud of my achievements, but now that I am out of the game, I prefer where I am, even though I miss the cut and thrust. H tries to steer me toward local politics, but I veer away, possibly I fear causing the not good enough rift again. Hmm, again I have veered off the topic and not sure what I am saying .... which shows I have lost the ability to be concise and foccus. It isn't pleasant to confront my own prejudices or try to explain away my feeling let down by his choice, which doesn't even make any sense to me. Much to consider, honesty can be a bitter pill sometimes.

[OWoman]

I admit that when I knew who she was, I felt, my God you have cheated on me with her!! I know, sounds very snobby, did it really matter who he had cheated with? Well yes, I came from the same social background, had the same life chances and worked my butt off to get where I was and it seemed to me that I would have been better not working so hard for us, our future, but stayed at home. It doesn't even sound rational, but it was what it was. H says it felt like she was all he deserved, which pees me off no end as it sounds like he is saying she wasn't good enough.

 

Seren, I can so relate to your post, although I have never been in your position. So many things in there resonated for me even though I am on the "other" side.

 

I will reflect on it and post further when I have some coherence.

[BB07]

Seren........you come across as very fair minded, gracious and a very kind lady, lady in all sense of the word. There is a difference between honesty and honesty mixed with cruelity and you have not a cruel bone in you.

[seren]

Seren........you come across as very fair minded, gracious and a very kind lady, lady in all sense of the word. There is a difference between honesty and honesty mixed with cruelity and you have not a cruel bone in you.

 

Thank you BB, I take that as a very nice compliment I have no sides and just feel that life is far too short for bitterness and what'ifs. My friends nickname me Black Ops, which alludes to my being very open, I am very assertive and not always gracious, but I bear no grudges at all, toward anyone. I abhor cruelty in any form .... and now I am singing my own praises, I didn't say modesty was one of my traits. Seren x

[BB07]

Thank you BB, I take that as a very nice compliment I have no sides and just feel that life is far too short for bitterness and what'ifs. My friends nickname me Black Ops, which alludes to my being very open, I am very assertive and not always gracious, but I bear no grudges at all, toward anyone. I abhor cruelty in any form .... and now I am singing my own praises, I didn't say modesty was one of my traits. Seren x

 

Hey Seren.........I'm not taking it back, I stand by what I said.

XO BB

[carrie999]

Interesting question posed, I so hope it doesn't go off. Thinking on this, at the time of H's A, I was a high level professional, earning almost double H's salary, company car, many perks etc. I was also just getting into politics and had began moving into a different circle of friends who had similar interests.

The OW, was, and please don't interpret this as me being derogatory, it really isn't meant to be, in a totally different social scene from me and employment wise, in a lower end job (God that sounds so snotty). I don't see her as inferior to me, we had very different interests and goals. Given that H was going through a whole raft of feeling not good enough and self esteem issues, it is no wonder that he chose the OW he did. My bad that I didn't notice he was struggling to keep up and was feeling so dammed wretched about his, in his mind, shortcomings.

 

The things he has shared, show that the OW tried to show that she was important in her world (which of course she was) but it sounds like it became a thing of her saying, she would make sure he came home to a meal (I often worked late) had passed a work based exam (I had passed a Law degree) all achievements for us both, albeit in different fields, but he said it made her look like she was trying to say - I am as good as, I will take care of you when she (me) doesn't. It became a competition of sorts.

 

I admit that when I knew who she was, I felt, my God you have cheated on me with her!! I know, sounds very snobby, did it really matter who he had cheated with? Well yes, I came from the same social background, had the same life chances and worked my butt off to get where I was and it seemed to me that I would have been better not working so hard for us, our future, but stayed at home. It doesn't even sound rational, but it was what it was. H says it felt like she was all he deserved, which pees me off no end as it sounds like he is saying she wasn't good enough. Well, I don't play those games at the end of the day, she had the same hopes, fears etc as me. I ended up feeling I wasn't good enough as a home maker, hadn't gone out getting ratted with the rugby crowd, (done that, been there) but prefered meeting friends for a meal and conversation.

 

H is very proud of my achievements, but now that I am out of the game, I prefer where I am, even though I miss the cut and thrust. H tries to steer me toward local politics, but I veer away, possibly I fear causing the not good enough rift again. Hmm, again I have veered off the topic and not sure what I am saying .... which shows I have lost the ability to be concise and foccus. It isn't pleasant to confront my own prejudices or try to explain away my feeling let down by his choice, which doesn't even make any sense to me. Much to consider, honesty can be a bitter pill sometimes.

 

Seren, I always admire your posts and your incredible insight. I am helping you veer off the topic, for a moment. I'm only on here sporadically, and this is the first time I've seen you vent...and you do so with grace and humility..

 

The question posted by the OP is an interesting one...how DOES status play into affairs? In your case, it sounds like he was threatened, to some degree, by your success, and it was nice for him to find someone who looked up to him. Even the most even-headed, forward-minded men have a hard time trying to "live up to you" in his mind. Men are still conditioned to believe that they should earn more and be as smart as their spouse.

 

Equality is okay, for today's guy...but they're still not ready to be the one who provides less, whether that's an educational or business (power) thing. I've personally witnessed it with my own friends, including a man who chose to stay home while his wife (who makes fantastic money) supports the family. He's enlightened, not a neandrathal, and knows that his earning power is less than half of hers, and they want a parent home with the kids. He's still acted out. If you are even 1/10 as emotionally balanced and great as you seem here, your husband probably just feels emasculated, and that led to his A...

 

Now I'll move on to the part that doesn't threadjack the OP. The MM I'm involved with has a very good (but not "executive-type") job that pays their bills, whereas she has a fairly low-paying job that doesn't allow her to utilize her degree. I'm somewhere between them. In my case, prestige, money, and power don't factor in at all.

 

But I still think this is a very interesting point. Women may be attracted to men who are powerful. Men may seek women who are less powerful, financially speaking. This post and the responses to it show that the age-old (and possibly biologically based) roles still exist, in many of our minds...

[Spark1111]

Very interesting topic!

 

According to evolutionary psychologists, status does play a part in female attraction.

 

We are looking for a "proven" man; one who can sire healthy children and provide for them and us!

 

According to Dr. Shirley Glass, infidelity guru, if already mated, we would seek someone opposite of what we have at home for an EMR.

 

So, if you have the high-powered corporate exec, you will seek the kind carpenter or artist.

 

If you have the artist, you may seek the strength of the high-powered exec.

 

If you want the security of being supported and provided for and the excitement of vacations and excursions (well, who wouldn't?) you will be attracted to someone who can provide that.

 

If you are feeling lesser than, you may seek someone you can feel superior to, someone you could rescue.

 

Affairs, and attractions, fill unmet needs, whether it is subconscious or not.

[OWoman]

According to Dr. Shirley Glass, infidelity guru, if already mated, we would seek someone opposite of what we have at home for an EMR.

 

That would figure. My H's xW and I are pretty much polar opposites...

[lovingwhatis]

Interesting question posed, I so hope it doesn't go off. Thinking on this, at the time of H's A, I was a high level professional, earning almost double H's salary, company car, many perks etc. I was also just getting into politics and had began moving into a different circle of friends who had similar interests.

The OW, was, and please don't interpret this as me being derogatory, it really isn't meant to be, in a totally different social scene from me and employment wise, in a lower end job (God that sounds so snotty). I don't see her as inferior to me, we had very different interests and goals. Given that H was going through a whole raft of feeling not good enough and self esteem issues, it is no wonder that he chose the OW he did. My bad that I didn't notice he was struggling to keep up and was feeling so dammed wretched about his, in his mind, shortcomings.

 

The things he has shared, show that the OW tried to show that she was important in her world (which of course she was) but it sounds like it became a thing of her saying, she would make sure he came home to a meal (I often worked late) had passed a work based exam (I had passed a Law degree) all achievements for us both, albeit in different fields, but he said it made her look like she was trying to say - I am as good as, I will take care of you when she (me) doesn't. It became a competition of sorts.

 

I admit that when I knew who she was, I felt, my God you have cheated on me with her!! I know, sounds very snobby, did it really matter who he had cheated with? Well yes, I came from the same social background, had the same life chances and worked my butt off to get where I was and it seemed to me that I would have been better not working so hard for us, our future, but stayed at home. It doesn't even sound rational, but it was what it was. H says it felt like she was all he deserved, which pees me off no end as it sounds like he is saying she wasn't good enough. Well, I don't play those games at the end of the day, she had the same hopes, fears etc as me. I ended up feeling I wasn't good enough as a home maker, hadn't gone out getting ratted with the rugby crowd, (done that, been there) but prefered meeting friends for a meal and conversation.

 

H is very proud of my achievements, but now that I am out of the game, I prefer where I am, even though I miss the cut and thrust. H tries to steer me toward local politics, but I veer away, possibly I fear causing the not good enough rift again. Hmm, again I have veered off the topic and not sure what I am saying .... which shows I have lost the ability to be concise and foccus. It isn't pleasant to confront my own prejudices or try to explain away my feeling let down by his choice, which doesn't even make any sense to me. Much to consider, honesty can be a bitter pill sometimes.

 

Seren, thank you for that honest, open post. You are a brave woman. Yes, honesty can be a bitter pill sometimes.

 

I love how you were able to stand above the situation and observe it for what it is, observe yourself. We all have our inner insecurities, but we become really good at compensating for them.. What you observed in yourself i imagine was liberating.

 

And that's exactly why I posed the question, to examine our own prejudices. Thanks a lot for writing!

[lovingwhatis]

Seren, I always admire your posts and your incredible insight. I am helping you veer off the topic, for a moment. I'm only on here sporadically, and this is the first time I've seen you vent...and you do so with grace and humility..

 

The question posted by the OP is an interesting one...how DOES status play into affairs? In your case, it sounds like he was threatened, to some degree, by your success, and it was nice for him to find someone who looked up to him. Even the most even-headed, forward-minded men have a hard time trying to "live up to you" in his mind. Men are still conditioned to believe that they should earn more and be as smart as their spouse.

 

Equality is okay, for today's guy...but they're still not ready to be the one who provides less, whether that's an educational or business (power) thing. I've personally witnessed it with my own friends, including a man who chose to stay home while his wife (who makes fantastic money) supports the family. He's enlightened, not a neandrathal, and knows that his earning power is less than half of hers, and they want a parent home with the kids. He's still acted out. If you are even 1/10 as emotionally balanced and great as you seem here, your husband probably just feels emasculated, and that led to his A...

 

Now I'll move on to the part that doesn't threadjack the OP. The MM I'm involved with has a very good (but not "executive-type") job that pays their bills, whereas she has a fairly low-paying job that doesn't allow her to utilize her degree. I'm somewhere between them. In my case, prestige, money, and power don't factor in at all.

 

But I still think this is a very interesting point. Women may be attracted to men who are powerful. Men may seek women who are less powerful, financially speaking. This post and the responses to it show that the age-old (and possibly biologically based) roles still exist, in many of our minds...

 

Carrie, I really don't see how the beginning of your post was a threadjack in any way. You describe very real situations in which one's status and the resulting earning power can have a strong effect on a M, and in the cases when one of the two people feels disempowered, it may lead to them opting for an A.

 

I perceived xMM as someone who did have something to prove to himself and the world. Maybe that's why he achieved the high status job he had. But he also seemed to want to validate his ego through my admiration. I admire his artistic abilities, for they are very special, and his artwork moves me deeply. He was a better artist when we met so I looked up to him. He liked that, and even assumed I wasn't good before seeing my work. That was something that I couldn't understand at first, somehow he wanted to validate himself by invalidating me. So we had a bit of an implied competition with the art. But he also had a great career which I didn't have. I noticed that at times when he had work successes he became more assertive. That was strange to me.. But now that I think about it, it makes sense. He had his self-worth on the line. And I just couldn't support him in wanting to get something from me that he perceived that would make him more of a man. In my eyes he was that man, but not in his own eyes.

[lovingwhatis]

I have often wondered this as well. My BF who has cheated in the past - several times - has a very high level, high status job and is very well known. I am *not* being cruel when I say this, but he is not the best looking guy in the world. Don't get me wrong, he is very attractive to me or I wouldn't be with him, but he is not a guy most women would stop to look twice at. But there are never a shortage of women who go after him. And, obviously, as mentioned, he has strayed in the past. My point is, I do think that the women who come after him (sometimes very blatantly like when I am standing across the room at a cocktail party or dinner) wouldn't have an interest if they didn't know he had money and status. I could be wrong though.

 

Ironically, I truly could not care less about material things, and all that crap. When we first started dating he bought me a LV bag and I made him give it to his mom. I see no need to be carrying a bag worth more than my car LOL... I do think that many women would want to be with him for financial reasons or to further their own career or because they would find it a turn on that someone considered important in his line of work would find time for them.

 

Once again, I could be way off base here. I can only speak for what I have seen and what I know of some of the women he either cheated with or women who have pursued him.

Rose, thanks for sharing that, it made me laugh when I read about the LV bag.

 

Assuming that your bf is self-made, do you feel that his drive to succeed had anything to do with his As? As for the women who pursue him, that's an interesting observation, and you are one secure woman to be able to be as calm about it. I admire that, and I imagine that your bf does too.

[jj33]

Based on the 4 woman that I know xMM has been with they either have his social status or a lower social status (but only slightly lower) and more education than he has and very high status in their careers, which, depending on how you view means

 

(1) he has bartered the lack of equality in social status for the education and career acheivements or

(2) that we (I was one of the latter group) have a higher status than he does if you place a higher value on education and personal acheivement than familial social status.

 

He did not "trade down" in his affairs if that is what you are implying.

[OWoman]

Based on the 4 woman that I know xMM has been with they either have his social status or a lower social status (but only slightly lower) and more education than he has and very high status in their careers, which, depending on how you view means

 

(1) he has bartered the lack of equality in social status for the education and career acheivements or

(2) that we (I was one of the latter group) have a higher status than he does if you place a higher value on education and personal acheivement than familial social status.

 

He did not "trade down" in his affairs if that is what you are implying.

 

If one believes the evolutionary psychologists or sociobiologists, then men equate "mateworthiness" with physical indicators of health and fertility (like beauty) and women equate "mateworthiness" with social indicators of access to resources, like status, power, or wealth.

 

Personally, I find a little truth in that, but only in a very crude way. I would never pick a Bill Gates over a Brian Cox, or a Barack Obama over a Julian Assange, and nothing in the world would ever get me to look twice at an Aristotle Onassis!

[OWoman]

Based on the 4 woman that I know xMM has been with they either have his social status or a lower social status (but only slightly lower) and more education than he has and very high status in their careers, which, depending on how you view means

 

(1) he has bartered the lack of equality in social status for the education and career acheivements or

(2) that we (I was one of the latter group) have a higher status than he does if you place a higher value on education and personal acheivement than familial social status.

 

He did not "trade down" in his affairs if that is what you are implying.

 

Ooops - fired that off too fast!

 

What I meant to add was - your brains may well have been the attraction, but your beauty didn't do you any disservice either!!

[jj33]

OWoman Im blushin! I do agree with your research.

[lovingwhatis]

jj, i like how you've analyzed the status scenario. This is the reason why i didn't pose the q as status and money, but only status. There is a certain cache that edicational achievements carry, especially if followed by an intellectual career.

 

You've made me realize something, so i thank you for that. You've cristalized the affair down concept, which describes someone who very much wants to prove themselves by comparing themselves to others. That's the height of pseudo intellectualism, a desperate attempt to win at this thing called life. I've always rejected that, though subconsciously i've played that game too. It has shown up as my judgementalness.

 

Affairs seem to bring out a bunch of subonscious drives in people. Looked from another angle, what a blessing it is when one can see their denied traits in another, and be presented with an opportunity to finally own them.

 

Based on the 4 woman that I know xMM has been with they either have his social status or a lower social status (but only slightly lower) and more education than he has and very high status in their careers, which, depending on how you view means

 

(1) he has bartered the lack of equality in social status for the education and career acheivements or

(2) that we (I was one of the latter group) have a higher status than he does if you place a higher value on education and personal acheivement than familial social status.

 

He did not "trade down" in his affairs if that is what you are implying.

[jj33]

Im curious as to what it was that I said that crystallized that for you.

 

I think most relationships are a melding of needs and drives as much as they are about love, shared values and attraction etc.

 

Ive always thought of the whole "affair down" thing as an old myth that men sleep with woman of lower status because they would never taint one of their own social status or because they play outside of their own sandbox. I think its only true in a misogynist context, i.e. men who look down on the women who would sleep with them.

 

It may have been true in Victorian times when social status was more rigid but at least in the U.S. where the middle class is so large and the variations in status are so subtle, I think its harder to say that relationships are about status unless you look at the cliche, the boss and his secretary in which case if its not pure love there may be some element of status and power meets beauty and sparks fly). But even then they work in the same professional environment, spend their days together etc.

 

My guess is money is a bigger differential than status in many relationshps. Not because the women are gold diggers but just because unfortunately, the fact is that in general men make more money than women do even within the same workplace doing the same job.

[lovingwhatis]

Thanks, jj! Im not sure exactly what crystalized it, but it did.

 

I've never heard of affair down until this thread, and i was resistant to it, but i see what its pointing to. Like you said, its a lot more subtle nowadays. In simpler terms, i see it as societal achievements vs non achievements. And there is a hierarchy of what our society considers valuable. Even art is greatly evaluated, and im sure you'll agree that that can be very random. I saw once that a painting of a blue square sold for 10 million..

 

Yes, relationships are an amalgamation of a number of things. It is arrognce on our parts to try to understand them. Especially since half the variables are completely non logical.

[jj33]

And the same person who may think they are affairing down may actually be seeking to prove their masculinity to themselves. So if he is a high powered entrepreneur and she is the woman who cleaned his suite at the hotel from the outside one person might say wow he is trading down and he may in fact find her attractive because in addition to being a lovely person, she is beautiful and it makes him feel good about himself as a man while she is not so impressed with his status because she sees men like him every day and may be proprositioned by 10 men like him each week.

 

As you say you never know who is seeking what in any relationshp. Inner needs are a driver in even the healthiest of relatoinships.

[fooled once]

I would like to pose this question for discussion since i began wondering for the first time ever if exMM high status job had anything to do with me choosing to continue w the EA. Now, dont get me wrong, there were a lot more emotional reasons, yet i remember being somewhat impressed when he handed me his card. A guy i was in love with long time ago worked at the same co. before b school. I chose an artistic path despite the arguments of my parents, and ddn't understand my classmates', bf's career ambitions. But subconsciously i envied them a bit. Afterall, successful careers mean a different lifestyle, opportunities, yada yada.

 

Have you wondered if the status of the AP had something to do with the beginning, and even more so the continuing of the A? I hope this q wont be interpreted as an invitation to exploring the cultural stereotypes, but more as an exploratiin of subonscious motives some may have.

 

Also, i read in another thread that 'status equals power', and wodered how that power transfers in R/As?

 

For ME - when I was involved with someone who was married - his job status had nothing to do with it.

 

I know that some men in high positions think they are God's gift to women and I am willing to bet the ones who are cheaters think any woman would be flattered and falling all over him if he came onto her.

 

I have worked for many "high ranking" men in power positions. For the most part, their egos are humongeous and they are conceited. That attitude isn't a turn on for me I prefer the quiet confidence; not the in your face conceit.

 

So in my experience, status had nothing to do with my prior affair.

[fooled once]

Seren........you come across as very fair minded, gracious and a very kind lady, lady in all sense of the word. There is a difference between honesty and honesty mixed with cruelity and you have not a cruel bone in you.

 

I agree that you come across as very fair and very gracious. I really enjoy reading your posts

[lovingwhatis]

And the same person who may think they are affairing down may actually be seeking to prove their masculinity to themselves. So if he is a high powered entrepreneur and she is the woman who cleaned his suite at the hotel from the outside one person might say wow he is trading down and he may in fact find her attractive because in addition to being a lovely person, she is beautiful and it makes him feel good about himself as a man while she is not so impressed with his status because she sees men like him every day and may be proprositioned by 10 men like him each week.

 

As you say you never know who is seeking what in any relationshp. Inner needs are a driver in even the healthiest of relatoinships.

 

Yeah, im with you on this.

 

So, then what should we do? Altogether discontinue trying to figure relationships out? But what will we occupy our time with?

 

Im not yet ready to do so, and i will share what i read recently. It talks about the benefit of understanding, and yet alludes to a deeper Knowing that comes after that. What im not quite certain of is when does the understanding morph into a knowing.

 

I feel that a good sign is when the questions stop.