What is the role of social status in an A?

[Heather1]

LOL...maybe I was thinking about their height? I'm pretty tall.

 

But you're both right, the pro athletes I dated in my 20's was the most boring sex I've ever had. But damn do they look good! I guess they have to, to make up for the crappy sex.

[OWoman]

LOL...maybe I was thinking about their height? I'm pretty tall.

 

But you're both right, the pro athletes I dated in my 20's was the most boring sex I've ever had. But damn do they look good! I guess they have to, to make up for the crappy sex.

 

Top politicians tend to be pretty tall too... and usually have pretty ramped up libidos... (and they can't lie when their mouths are full )

[Heather1]

hmmmmm, never been w/ a politician before Not around politicians ever. Can't IMAGINE trusting them as a spouse!!

[lovingwhatis]

Owoman,

 

At first I couldn't understand your POV, especially saying that you are alpha and want to be with an alpha male. So I read the definitions of alpha female and alpha male, and now I am finally beginning to understand you more. It does sound from what you describe about yourself that you are alpha, and want to be the leader. Maybe that's why you've been misunderstood on here and by me as well. With that said, I can't quite comprehend how a real alpha male would want to be dominated by you. Unless he is a closeted beta, lol. Our society is not very kind in its evaluation of a beta man. He is portrayed as a wuss. So I can see how a beta male would want to be perceived as alpha by getting the job, status, etc. But deep down he is beta.

 

Alpha and beta have similarities it seems to masculine and feminine characteristics. Again, masculine aggression can take one far, but feminine gentleness and strength is just as powerful, but different. To perceive one as weak because they are feminine is one of the oldest and biggest misperceptions. Since we all don't have to fight bare handed and drag home our food anymore, the masculine advantage is becoming less and less, IMO.

 

So, one q, do you consider yourself truly feminine?

[lovingwhatis]

Heather, big congratulations on your training for the new job and having the confidence to redefine yourself! I am inspired! You are clearly not buying into the idealization of youth that has been the norm, and are focusing on your great strengths, which I am sure are many.

 

What was your test that he failed? (just wondering)

 

Yes, I read in another thread about him slowly ceasing contact.. That's totally the opposite of the rip the band-aid thing I was talking about earlier, and if I were you, at this point I would rip it, and draw that line in the sand. LC is tougher, I agree with you.

 

 

I just think it's great she was able to achieve her goals, I'm just starting & I'm 48! We focused on my H businesses so I took care of everything at home so he could be successful & not have to worry about it. It's backfiring now though. I just wish it was my wishes being supported. We're working on it, I'm in a training now for a job I'm not sure if I'm too old for or not? We'll see....My advantage is that I'm a woman & at my age I'm not going to get pregnant & take a maternity leave or family leave anymore. My kids are almost grown.

 

As for xOM questioning me for my financial motives, I don't think so? There's no way now he could think I want him for his $$$, I do think he put me through some test to see what I'd do if he didn't spend a dime on me. What he didn't know is that he failed MY test. He had a great job & made a very decent salary on his own. His families business just is an offer that he couldn't really pass by & it's an enormous salary. He would have still been wealthy @ his former career.

 

I just thought he had a killer smile

 

Too much water under the bridge though. We've been in NC/LC/NC since Nov., no drama, I was just done. Shot him an email in Dec. saying I missed him & he said "thanks." Got the hint, BIG TIME!! Told him I'd contact him when I finish my training in a few months & dreading valentines day. It would be harder knowing we're in LC though & not hearing from him that day than in NC. I know how he feels about me now.

[lovingwhatis]

Seren, thanks again for writing so honestly. It is interesting how you have a different set of rules for yourself vs others. I wonder at what point that developed in you?

 

In my view, we are all the same, and if I can see understand another's fallibility, and that would apply to me too. Not saying that it would give me carte blanche to do whatever, but it would put me in the same position as others, because again, we are a lot more alike than different.

 

I used to not even consider that I would engage in an EA. And when I met him (before starting the EA), I completely denied my feelings, and did everything to distract myself from them. I wasn't honest with myself. It finally hit me like a ton of bricks. Love doesn't bow to us. I was humbled.

 

What you describe of your H's PTSD must be excruciating. I imagine his whole world was distorted through the trauma prism. On the scale of trauma, what your H experienced is one of the more severe, and the effects on a close relationship were obvious. If it wasn't the A, it would have been some other type of self-destructive behavior. He said he felt disgust with himself for it, but really (and I see that you recognize this), it stemmed a lot more from the trauma of war that he wasn't able to process. Western treatment and assessment focuses on the symptoms IMO, but the causes in many cases are not obviously related to the symptoms.

 

Yes, she was enabling him, but not anymore than a bottle would have enabled him to numb the pain. Enabling sounds like she went out and planned to support him in a dysfunctional way in his attempts to self-medicate his pain. Could there be an honest expression of love from a wounded being? All they are trying to do is cope (however clumsily). It sounds like I am excusing your H, but taking from your signature, posts, and the fact that you are still with him, I take it you have seen the bigger picture yourself a long time ago.

 

Hi, I will try to answer your questions honestly.

 

Seren, I so appreciate this discussion that we've been having and your very open, honest, graceful responses! What a gift you have to be compassionate to others and see their points of view! Are you at all interested in eastern philosophy?

No, I was brought up a Quaker/Unitarian, but admit to having no religous views, per se. However, the do no harm and being the best person you can be, mantra has stayed with me, always. Yes I always try to look at things from all points of view, I may not always agree with others and am pretty rigid in my own moral compass, but understand that others have their own boat to row.

 

What you share about your feelings towards OW in the midst of your grief is nothing short of courageous. Have you always been so deeply honest with yourself? I try to do that as well, though the blind spots are hard to look at for obvious reasons.

 

Again, yes, I am brutally honest with myself to the point of cutting my nose of to spite my face. I wish I wasn't so, but it is who I am. I was taught that if you are wrong, you admit it, if you are right, you stand by your 'rightness' and take whatever is thrown at you, but you never, ever run away. On D Day, my first thought was that my H was hurt and in bits, I knew that I would cope, but wasn't sure he would. I also heard from OW and felt for her hurt. I am no saint, just a total realist, s*** happens, we have to deal with it, it just doesn't go away on its own.

 

One curiosity I have is, why do you think he made these disparaging remarks about her? Was it out of guilt or somehow trying to make you feel better by putting her down? The bold below is understandably not an easy thing to put in perspective. When you say she is your complete opposite, do you mean personality/looks wise?

 

Ahh, how to say this without hurting others, being aware what board I am on. The truth is, once the A was out in the open, H saw it for what it was and saw OW as enabling him to hurt me and our marriage. (Not my words or view), I put the blame (?) where it belongs, with my H. But yes she enabled. I think he felt disgust at himself and the whole A, understand that he had pretty awful PTSD, friends killed, him being powerless etc. This made him feel disgusted with who he was, he, once he had told me about the A, felt disgust at himself and OW. Sorry, this sounds harsh, it is, and I do not allow the disparaging of another woman, OW or no and H and I had some pretty heated discussions about this.

 

When I say that I imagined an A for love, I knew/know that had H loved her, he would have left, I would have helped him to and I would have helped us to sort our stuff out. I get A's for love, I don't get the one's that drag on or where love isn't a factor. No I don't think OW was any worse looking than me, just different. OW is dark haired, I am a redhead, OW dresses differently to me, intelectually we are different, our jobs are different. I was a professional, she not. I like our dogs, country walks, good wine, being wooed, OW was more a party woman, not that I don't enjoy a good party, but no, she was nothing like me. I suppose I can be a challenge, she uncomplicated, possibly that was the attraction. All I know is that H said he felt he wasn't good enough for me, silly man, he has always been just right for me.

 

As for the Band Aid, I am a rip the end off type. Get it over with, grit your teeth, deal with the pain and then let it open to heal. So much cleaner, quicker and once off, it's off. The easing off just wastes time for what will be painful anyway.

 

Thanks for an interesting topic.

[OWoman]

Owoman,

 

At first I couldn't understand your POV, especially saying that you are alpha and want to be with an alpha male. So I read the definitions of alpha female and alpha male, and now I am finally beginning to understand you more. It does sound from what you describe about yourself that you are alpha, and want to be the leader. Maybe that's why you've been misunderstood on here and by me as well. With that said, I can't quite comprehend how a real alpha male would want to be dominated by you. Unless he is a closeted beta, lol. Our society is not very kind in its evaluation of a beta man. He is portrayed as a wuss. So I can see how a beta male would want to be perceived as alpha by getting the job, status, etc. But deep down he is beta.

 

I've "had" enough alpha men that I've dominated (and they love it! the role reversal can be very liberating) but that was back when I "did" men for the sexual aspect only. With my H things are different. We have a very equal R which is why he had to be alpha - anything less and the R would have become unbalanced.

 

Alpha and beta have similarities it seems to masculine and feminine characteristics. Again, masculine aggression can take one far, but feminine gentleness and strength is just as powerful, but different. To perceive one as weak because they are feminine is one of the oldest and biggest misperceptions. Since we all don't have to fight bare handed and drag home our food anymore, the masculine advantage is becoming less and less, IMO.

 

So, one q, do you consider yourself truly feminine?

 

I don't work in terms of gender stereotypes. Books like "Mars and Venus" have never resonated with me at all... but my H thinks I'm the most feminine woman he's ever met. So who knows?

[lovingwhatis]

Owoman, you've lost me again.

 

So you are telling me that you are ok to stereotype yourself and others in terms of alpha male and female stereoptypes, but somehow reject feminine and masculine stereotypes? And apparently your husband is blind or incorrectly stereotyping you by describing you as the most feminine woman.

 

Also, he suffered abuse in his prior marriage but then recovered his 'alpha' personality in relationships. Doesn't compute.

[Heather1]

Heather, big congratulations on your training for the new job and having the confidence to redefine yourself! I am inspired! You are clearly not buying into the idealization of youth that has been the norm, and are focusing on your great strengths, which I am sure are many.

 

What was your test that he failed? (just wondering)

 

Yes, I read in another thread about him slowly ceasing contact.. That's totally the opposite of the rip the band-aid thing I was talking about earlier, and if I were you, at this point I would rip it, and draw that line in the sand. LC is tougher, I agree with you.

 

My test is how he makes me feel. As a friend, incredible. As lovers, the sex is incredible but he freaks out & I have to backpeddle, so it's not worth it. We're both slowly ceasing contact. Something came up a few weeks ago & he totally took care of it for me, and I appreciate that. Still, I thanked him & stopped emailing him. I don't expect to hear from him again.

 

Surprisingly though, an old bf im'd me on FB last night & he's also extremely successful?? More than xMM & it's his own money. I can't figure out how I attract these guys? I really am not glamourous or throw it out there. I remember some woman years ago said, "it's not like your pretty, but you have this svengali thing going for you." Not the most flattering comment I've ever had, especially because xMM told me i was beautiful & totally sexy, but it made me wonder what men are attracted to in me? One thing I know, I make it all about them & I'm a huge ego boost, and I'm sincere. One of the guys at work called me "genuine" & it was one of the nicest compliments I've ever received. I get the male ego.

[Heather1]

ps...and no, it's not because I'm easy!! This was my first & last A!! I was no easy catch for xMM.

[lovingwhatis]

Heather, i dont get what the other woman called you.

 

That's an interesting observation about the successful men and their egos..

 

I unwittingly inflated his ego by admiring him, but i also equally unwittingly deflated it by being very upfront about the things i was aware of. I don't think his ego liked me.

I reread a few of your older posts, and remember that one when you feel Nc is like wanting the last word. You are struggling with this, a last letter may provide you with enough space where you dont' have to wait secretly for a letter. This is egoic, but you are giving him a very easy out by not writing. Then again, even Nc is no guarantee for anything. I think about him every day, and unlike other people on here im not angry at him.

[Heather1]

I'm not angry either....I totally get it. I mean, I could be mad @ him but I played my part in it too & it's a high risk, low reward R, so what would I expect?

 

To make it easier on myself, I visualize outcomes.

5% Us leaving spouses & together

20% Us in a LTA where we never get caught? I would have been up for that except for the way he acts after sex, can't handle. Plus it's unlikely that we'd never get caught.

75%Us caught? This is most likely & would be like a bomb going off because of who he is. It would be very ugly for me, not so much for him.

Those are my continuing A thoughts

 

Us leaving it alone? Tough, but the only answer for now.

Us as friends? Not yet, maybe never? Don't know until I have no attraction.

 

All hard, but it was never going to be easy. Path of least resistance for me right now is just letting it die. If he felt the same way about me, I would go ahead & write a letter, etc.. I don't think he feels the same way anymore so I think he most likely goes through his days not thinking about me. I don't want him to regret it, or hate me. I don't hate him. I don't have the same feelings for him either, after all this time has passed & his actions. I have to say, at the time we really helped eachother in a tough time. I needed someone like him to come along & I'm grateful for it. But we hit a wall.

[OWoman]

Owoman, you've lost me again.

 

So you are telling me that you are ok to stereotype yourself and others in terms of alpha male and female stereoptypes, but somehow reject feminine and masculine stereotypes? And apparently your husband is blind or incorrectly stereotyping you by describing you as the most feminine woman.

 

OK, I've probably been less than clear here...

 

I do think that there is validity in "categorising" some personality types alpha, beta, etc based on internal motivators and external behaviour. Those are not stereotypes - it's simply a convenient shorthand to describe different personality types.

 

I don't think there is validity in stereotyping people according to gender. I am as "at home" in a hardware shop as I am in a shoe shop, and I can find my way around an engine as easily as around a kitchen. I think feminine and masculine gender constructs are socially constructed, rather than biologically determined. I outperformed all the guys in my high school class at Maths (a supposedly "male" subject) and at languages (a supposedly "female" area). So no, I don't consider myself stereotypically "feminine", in that I don't comply to the stereotypes that writers of superficial tripe like "men are from mars" dish out. That said, I am not "butch" or "masculine" and I don't sprout hair in inappropriate places. I am very "female", which is what the comment from my H referred to, even if I don't comply with stereotypes. And no, he's neither blind nor stereotyping - but he had been M to a very butch (physically - but with all the "female stereotype" attitudes) woman for decades.

 

Also, he suffered abuse in his prior marriage but then recovered his 'alpha' personality in relationships. Doesn't compute.

 

I got to know him in the professional sphere, where he has always been "alpha". He also played sport competitively, and topped the rankings. Socially, he was dominant. The M-thing was clearly out of keeping with the rest of the package, and was linked to specific issues from his past, which he addressed in IC, allowing him to bring that aspect of his behaviour in line with the rest of his personality and behaviours.

 

It's not uncommon - many highly successful people in all other aspects of their lives suck at Rs until they address those issues (usually arising from their childhood Rs with their parents) in IC. There are plenty of examples on these boards. The good news is that it can, and often does, get successfuly addressed in IC.

[lovingwhatis]

I'm not angry either....I totally get it. I mean, I could be mad @ him but I played my part in it too & it's a high risk, low reward R, so what would I expect?

 

To make it easier on myself, I visualize outcomes.

5% Us leaving spouses & together

20% Us in a LTA where we never get caught? I would have been up for that except for the way he acts after sex, can't handle. Plus it's unlikely that we'd never get caught.

75%Us caught? This is most likely & would be like a bomb going off because of who he is. It would be very ugly for me, not so much for him.

Those are my continuing A thoughts

 

Us leaving it alone? Tough, but the only answer for now.

Us as friends? Not yet, maybe never? Don't know until I have no attraction.

 

All hard, but it was never going to be easy. Path of least resistance for me right now is just letting it die. If he felt the same way about me, I would go ahead & write a letter, etc.. I don't think he feels the same way anymore so I think he most likely goes through his days not thinking about me. I don't want him to regret it, or hate me. I don't hate him. I don't have the same feelings for him either, after all this time has passed & his actions. I have to say, at the time we really helped eachother in a tough time. I needed someone like him to come along & I'm grateful for it. But we hit a wall.

 

Heather, even amidst the many emotions you are experiencing, don't doubt what you said at the end, that you've helped each other during a tough time.

 

You alo said yourseld that you have not really seen yourself with him in LTA. So maybe work on accepting what is and what was.

 

I struggle with this too, but it is so liberating to finally understand that whatever happened was perfect, and tye way to know that is because it Did happen.

[Heather1]

Heather, even amidst the many emotions you are experiencing, don't doubt what you said at the end, that you've helped each other during a tough time.

 

You alo said yourseld that you have not really seen yourself with him in LTA. So maybe work on accepting what is and what was.

 

I struggle with this too, but it is so liberating to finally understand that whatever happened was perfect, and tye way to know that is because it Did happen.

 

One of our convo's a few months back was on what got us together in the first place (max stress for both of us, perfect storm). Anyway, both our situations are very different now. His businesses are doing great, everything in his life is good, it's like he doesn't need me anymore?

 

 

OWoman, I can relate to the alpha female in sports but not really the workplace. A few of my female best friends are CEO's and VP's & it would be hard for any man to make what they do. Both have gorgeous BF's or H way younger. I love it!! I don't think the one should have married the cabana boy though, hopefully there's a prenup?

 

When I was single, men found it very hard to date me & lose to me in sports. They liked to hang out w/ me, but they'd pick my friends who wouldn't compete with them. My H is proud of it, but I know it's hard for him too. Luckily I'm getting old & slow, so don't really play much more than golf anymore. I would say I'm just this side of straight, but very feminine. I love men!

[lovingwhatis]

Heather, I know it is not easy to just accept this cycle as part of life, but reading your posts I know you are keeping it in perspective and growing from this experience, which is great. Wishing you peace of mind and heart.

[lovingwhatis]

Owoman, thanks for the clarification. And thanks for being a dissenting voice and getting the discussions on here in more broad directions. I don't know women with your views IRL so it is has been interesting to confront my own biases and blind spots. Though I don't agree with you in whole, I am finding that that is not what I care about anyway. And I imagine you don't care much whether I agree with you either, and that's cool too.