For OW/OM who made it to a legitimate relationship with MM...

[jj33]

Again....fairy tales. He's NOT divorced. Their relationship is/was built on a foundation of lies and deceit. Affair marriages (affairages) never work.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Marriage can never legitimize adultery.

You can't make wrong...right or make darkness...light.

 

Your belief but not a fact or the law.

 

For what it's worth, divorce AND remarriage is an acceptable choice for betrayed spouses and arguably for abused spouses presuming they actually DIVORCE first...then meet/pursue their next spouse. I'm not discrediting LEGITIMATE/"rightful" 2nd and subsequent marriages.

 

Of course...widow/widowers can remarry too.

 

These aren't my "judgments", they are facts. I don't make the rules. Sorry if you are offended.

 

Mr. W

 

You say these arent your judgement these are facts. I respect the fact that this is your belief and that in your world that is fact, but as a matter of law (which is what determines whether a marriage is legitimate) the marriage is in fact legitimate.

 

I can only assume you are basing the statement in bold on either your personal or religious or other spiritual beliefs.

 

They are yours and they are valuable for that reason, but that does not make them "fact".

[fooled once]

Lots of great posts. Mino, thank you for being so honest and open.

 

I know I need to start a thread on this, but really dont have time at the moment, heading out of town. But I will say this... Its not been easy. The first month it was the hoonymoon phase. Then... when we did argue, I had to listen to the fact that He claims I cheated, since I was seeing a sm during NC. Thats stupid in my op, since he was married, and I did break it off with MM. But the idea for him that I was with someone else drove him nuts.. Our life of coarse changed when he moved in. Now we had a different schedule. After work, he has no time for "us" he want to see his child. Sometimes its 30 min, sometimes 2 hours. On his day off, he babysits... His ex works part time, so some days he brings the child to school, other days he picks up. These are now daily issues. The evenings belong to us. By then, he is exhausted. I just took a 3 week vacation, by myself. He couldnt be away that long... So " time " is a problem. I feel there is not much for us. Money... sore subject. He pays around 6000 a month to his w. I didnt ask for anything at the beginning, he has been doing work around the house. But I opened the subject up a month ago...I guess its pretty tight, after his alimony & support, he pays me now 700. He is cranky, moody... I understand... a D is not easy... but he has a short fuse, and I feel he is angry he has to pay so much. During the A, we didnt have these issues. I knew they would come, but knowing and going through it are two different things. Im getting resentful, I feel still second, or maybe third. I am now cooking on his schedule, laundry, cleaning up after him, Joy? lol, not much time for it... Of coarse we have our moments, there are nice times too. Overall, I think had I understood what all comes with it, I would have not gone these route. Do I still love him, yes, Does he love me, yes... but that does not change the fact of all these issues that comes with a divorced man. Sorry for threadjacking Kismet, i just had to claify, will start a thread soon.

 

I was going to respond, but then saw alexandria's post and she took the words off my fingers

 

Mino I'm kind of curious to know what you pictured your life to be with this man. You sound a little resentful of the time he gives his child but it doesn't sound excessive to me. Thirty minutes to two hours a day isn't all that much and caring for his child when his ex is at work is not called "babysitting", it's called parenting and it's his responsibility. It kind of sounds like you were picturing something far different. Like maybe he devote the bulk of his time to you and would only see his child once a week or something.

 

The money he claims he gives his ex does sound excessive and suspicious too. By the sounds of it he's paying about 80-90% of his income to his ex. That doesn't sound right to me but I don't know. Where I live that would just never happen. A man making 7 to 8 thousand a month probably wouldn't have to pay more than 2 grand a month to his former wife. Sounds fishy to me.

 

Depends on the state and all that - if the state is a straight percentage of alimony/child support or if both the parents income is taken into consideration. In my state, both incomes were taken into consideration and I didn't want or seek alimony (although my ex threatened to get alimony from me.)

 

Maybe what he is paying his stbx is voluntary and he is doing it freely because it's guilt money or it's possible that he is responsible for their house payment until it's sold or ?.

Sounds like he resents mino for the position he is in now financially. Something for an OW to think about in case her mm does really up and leave.

I don't mean to put words in mino's mouth but it sounds like she is thinking, "if I knew then what I know now".

 

I was thinking "guilt money" too.

 

Mino, I am sorry you two are having so many issues. Esp. with him saying you cheated, that must feel like a stab in the heart after what I'm sure you went thru while he was M and living with someone else. I do hope things get better for the two of you.

 

I have to say though, the bolded part really strikes a nerve with me. There are a lot of mothers out there who wish the fathers of their children would spend 2 hours a day with their child. As a D mother, I have an EXCELLENT relationship with my exH. We are all so close that EXH, BF, me and my son all stayed at the same beach house last summer and we all go out together often. We even all go to my son's parent teacher conferences toghether. I'm bringing this up to drive my point home. I want my ex-husband to get remarried. I have been friends with women he dated and even given them advice on things he likes/doesn't like, etc.... BUT, if any of those women ever compained about the amount of time he spends "babysitting" our son, I can tell you in no uncertain terms, he would leave her and I would advocate them splitting. A woman who views my son as taking time away from her needs to be with a man without children IMO.

 

I am hoping you really didn't mean it like this and that your frustration with the situation is just shining through. Probably just a wrong choice of words, I just wanted to let you know that letting him know you view the child as taking away from your time will prob drive him away more. But I am sorry you are hurting and that things aren't going great. I truly do hope things get better for you.

 

Wow Rose. Good for you. My ex has always been a crappy father. Even when we were married. When we divorced, it got worse. He never seemed to be interested in his only child. He never attended a single school function, to include parent-teacher conferences. Now that our son is grown, he still has little to do with him. It is totally his loss because our kid is great!

 

I also cut him slack for 12 freaking years and he was only ordered to pay 1/2 the state guidelines for child support. He played the "poor" card When I remarried, my H became the 'dad' my son never had - emotionally and financially. I was able to put away the pittance of child support and when my son moved out, we gave it to him as a down payment for a house.

 

My H also paid child support and I can tell you I was crazy happy when the day came that it was OVER!!! His ex wasn't so happy - she was living off it. And while there is no love loss between me and her, my H and I attended all school functions, sports functions, conferences and even the hearing on whether my step daughter would be expelled We attended counseling with her also - in fact, all 4 adults were there (me, dad, mom and mom's new husband). I am proud to say that even my stepdaughters mom acknowledged how close my SD and I are and said it was important for me to be there.

 

But after the mother stole from us, she was never again allowed in our home without me or my H there and unfortunately, that meant the kids were not given keys to the house. It is sad when adults can't behave properly for the sake of the kids.

 

Hi again, YOU are all right! I do want to clarify the "Babysitting" That is a term he uses, not me. I have a grown child, out of the home, so I have total understanding about raising children, and I do feel, the children should be raised by both parents. The problem is when we get off work, its already 5, then he goes straight from work to see his child, most days no problem. But on the otherhand, we can never do things, because of this schedule. On days off, he gets up by 8, and picks his child up, both days..We usually have different days off. When we do have them, never is there time to just sleep in together... He seems to be always on the run... trying to keep everybody happy.. Money... His w just started work , part time. They have a huge house, cars, private school, ect.. He has to pay all the bills the next 4 years. Then they sell the home... He agreed to this... Since he was the one that filed, he presented all this on a silver platter. I make 6 figures myself, I can pay my own way... but resentment IS kicking in big time. Is it right? Is it wrong? I can only say HOW I FEEL.... Would I have dated a man who had these obligations? Not sure,,,, I never went over financials in the beginning of a relationship.

 

How sad that he refers to parenting his son as babysitting. Is there any official visitation or just whenever? I know many divorced people who put "no overnight visitors" clauses in custody papers. I watched my step kids meet many men before the ex wife remarried and it was very hard on them. They referred to their mother as "the sl*t" and I wish my H had put that clause in his divorce/custody papers. We never had "overnights" when the kids were at his house (or my son at my house) until after we married. It was how we chose to handle things - and I am glad we did.

 

Yes Rose, people do make friends with their ex new partner, but that wont be the case here, I was the OW.... dont think will have any picnics any time in the near future..

 

Maybe in time things will get better. Mino, you have been so open and I appreciate that. It is nice (?) to see a true real glimpse in the life of "after the affair" per say. Your honesty is refreshing and I hope things work out for YOU. Do not let yourself not be a priority - no matter how much time you have invested in him. Sometimes, love is just NOT enough, ya know? Good luck.

[jj33]

You a lawyer?

 

If I were I would say that you agree with my position. You are perfectly entitled to your views.

 

I will accept that you beleive that her marriage should it happen may be legitimate as a matter of law it will never in your view be legitimate as a matter of fact.

[Spark1111]

Sigh...let's see if I can hold your hand through this.

 

Your original quoted post indicated that she should decide what to do by weighing whether MM was right for her or not (a weighing of benefits). That is an emotional choice that is far too easy for a emotional invested person to utilize to make a devastatingly horrible incorrect personal decision of uber-importance about their life and the life of another family (MM's presuming her decision could control the outcome which is unlikely). It's irresponsible advice to give to a hurting and confused OW trying to figure out what to do. She cares about MM. She thinks she LOVES him (and chemically she does).....so saying "if it's right" implies that, if it "FEELS" Ok, then it's OK is disgustingly horrible and immoral advice when I know and you should know that adultery is a dead end path to misery.

 

Besides...this woman has been abused by this MM (by choice...but it's still abuse) for FOUR YEARS. What "benefits" could possibly exist? Are you projecting your own thoughts as a FWW? What if this were your daughter who just told you she'd been dating a MM for 4 years and wasn't sure whether to end it or not?

 

I'm sorry that your intellect and education have made you this incapable of altering your mindset and extricating yourself from the foggy nightmare you are currently living and that your betrayed husband may possibly be a complete chuckwagon but wrongness happens. There isn't a gray area here. She needs to get away from MM...not weigh anything whatsoever.

 

Mr. Wondering

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa tex put your guns away. How rude and condescending! Before you comment, try reading the "back" stories on other posters before making such sweeping statements based on ignorance.

 

You do not know Ladygrey. You do not know her at all! It taints everything else you may say that is of value.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Spark1111
editing

[Spark1111]

You a lawyer?

 

you do not know jj33 either? What is up with you?

 

Some of your points and opinions are valid as applied generally to many affairs. But why the attacks?

 

Your thoughts whould be more respected if you did not have to put other posters down with your sarcasm and condescension.

 

What's up?

[Spark1111]

My fiance's ex and I are getting along pretty well now. Not friends but we talk and being in the same place is fine. We have talked about doing combined vacations in the future to make it smoothest on the kids.

 

 

I still think it's been incredibly stressful; but that's divorce and combining the lives of two divorced people. It's not easy. I thank every day that I am where I am and with who I am though. He still gives everything to make me happy. I LOVE his kids. They are great new people in my life. I am only sad he doesn't get more time with them; though we try to make the weekends quality time.

 

It won't normally be easy; I don't think; but I don't think Mino's situation is the norm either. Seems like there had to be red flags.

 

TinianT, you and I respect each other. Yet in this post I have to disagree.

 

I think Mino's MM is more the norm: someone who is unhappy, blames the marriage, but truly is not sure why.

 

Mino is now dealing with that same residual unhappiness, something she did not see all that often during the affair, or if she did, it was easy (and encouraged) to shift it to the marriage.

 

Now she is dealing with it. And it was much more than she bargained for and she is having some doubts, rightfully so!

[whichwayisup]

Mino is now dealing with that same residual unhappiness, something she did not see all that often during the affair, or if she did, it was easy (and encouraged) to shift it to the marriage.

 

I believe in Mino's situation, part of the issues going on is because it seems like MM ended his marriage and went straight to her, without taking any time for himself, to figure things out. To live alone and for the two of them to "date" under normal circumstances. I assume since they are living together now, it's been a hard adjustment moving from affair dynamic to an out in the open relationship. He also has to be grieving the loss of living with his son under the same roof and also his marriage overall..It's still a loss even though he was the one who ended it.

 

Mino's a strong woman and I have faith that she'll survive this, no matter what the outcome is.

[OWoman]

I think Mino's MM is more the norm: someone who is unhappy, blames the marriage, but truly is not sure why.

 

Mino is now dealing with that same residual unhappiness, something she did not see all that often during the affair, or if she did, it was easy (and encouraged) to shift it to the marriage.

 

Now she is dealing with it. And it was much more than she bargained for and she is having some doubts, rightfully so!

 

I disagree - Mino has stated several times on these boards (including here ) that her SO has "mental problems" which impact on how he conducts himself in his Rs. I certainly think that that is far from the "norm".... but it's interesting to see how all those opposed to As leap on Mino's outcome as some kind of moral lesson for any (or all) OW who presumes she might have a future with her MM...

 

If anyone can be bothered to read Mino's back story, they'd know that things have been far from smooth sailing during the A, and that Mino knew her MM's specific circumstances (his condition) meant that it wouldn't be a simple "happy ever after" for them - but she loved him and was willing to walk that route with him.

 

Turning the rather difficult outcome of a very particular situation into some generalisable "this is what happens" - and then, as some posters have had the gall to do, implying that those of us for whom it has worked out all peachy are not being "honest" because we're not slitting our wrists with misery - is at best naive, at worst disingenuous.

 

Mino's story might neatly illustrate a moral "truth" for those who want to believe things never work out between a MM and an OW, but her story is far from the norm. If anything, what it teaches are the risks of involvement with someone with "mental problems" (Mino's term - without knowing the condition, I'm unable to describe it elsewise) rather than the risks of having one's MM leave his M, since there are several other "happy endings" here where MMs without "mental problems" have left and are now living happily with their former OWs.

[OWoman]

I believe in Mino's situation, part of the issues going on is because it seems like MM ended his marriage and went straight to her, without taking any time for himself, to figure things out. To live alone and for the two of them to "date" under normal circumstances. I assume since they are living together now, it's been a hard adjustment moving from affair dynamic to an out in the open relationship. He also has to be grieving the loss of living with his son under the same roof and also his marriage overall..It's still a loss even though he was the one who ended it.

 

Mino's a strong woman and I have faith that she'll survive this, no matter what the outcome is.

 

WW, I believe that that too is linked to his "mental problems" - and his history of leaving and living with Mino and then returning to his M. IIRC, he did that three times before the D. This, again, is not a "normal" situation.

 

There are other fOWs whose fMMs left and moved in with their fOW immediately, with successful results. My H and his kids were alone for about six months before I joined them, due to other circumstances, and in our case I think it was helpful because of the abusive M he was leaving. But I don't believe that that is the only way to do it, and I don't believe it is "right" for all couples. The OW and the MM already have a R, and in most cases it's at the point where - were they both S - they would be considering moving in together. Putting false brakes on the R by enforcing a time apart can simply add to the strains.

 

My H and I lived together during his D, and I was glad to be able to provide the support to him that I would provide to any friend, but especially to the man I loved. If I left him to face that alone, while I continued my life somewhere else, I don't think I'd be demonstrating any kind of commitment to the R - especially not the kind of commitment one would want from someone one intended to make a life with.

 

Each situation is different - and Mino's is certainly not a blueprint for all.

[Mino]

Hi again, gotta make this short since I got a plane to catch, but I wanted to reply. Mr wondering... he is divorced... Now to my friends... I responded to this post because the question was if anyone has a legit relationship with their fmm. I have been on LS already a long time. Many of you have heard my issues and suffering from the past. I feel I needed to speak up, since many here are still in an A and are wondering if a "legit " relationship ever will come out of their A. I guess I was one of the Lucky ones Yes my A lasted 6 years. Its funny, they always say long term A never end up becoming legit. I guess I proved that wrong.. they do leave, sometimes. Yes my mm moved out 3 times before, and yes he moved back again. Yes my guy has a mental condition, its called OCD. He did get treatment, and the signs are minimal today. His issues back then were that he had anxieity attacks being away from his child. he deals with the seperation much better today. Like I said, he is not the one who seems "unhappy. The reason I responded and have tried to be as open and honest as possible is to open some of the ow eyes... Really..... because I spent 6 years of my life loving what I will call an illusion. I had this image, that he built in my heart and my head.. I guess you may want to call it the affair fog... I understand this term much better today then back then. Our time together was wonderful... like being on our own Island... with only one issue, his marriage. My energy went out to be his support on all of HIS issues. Mine meant nothing to me at the time... Today I see things differently. My bubble has busted. Today I see his flaws clearly... Today I see why is marriage fell apart. Today I am dealing with different issues, not his marriage anymore but our relationship. My point is that while we are in the mist of an A, we think there is a light at the other end once he is divorced. Our life together will begin like the fairy tale in our heads. But reality is that like any other relationship, this one comes with its own issues. Yes and problably with a few more. I wanted to share that with you. I wanted to share the fact that, his money is going to his first family. which can create resentment. I wanted to share the fact that his time is not ours, but that has other responsibilties. I am not here to paint gloom and doom. But merely wanted to share with you, of what your life could be like. I think my story and my issues are more then the norm... especially when there are young children and a exw who is a stay at home mom to consider.

[Mino]

WW, I believe that that too is linked to his "mental problems" - and his history of leaving and living with Mino and then returning to his M. IIRC, he did that three times before the D. This, again, is not a "normal" situation.

 

There are other fOWs whose fMMs left and moved in with their fOW immediately, with successful results. My H and his kids were alone for about six months before I joined them, due to other circumstances, and in our case I think it was helpful because of the abusive M he was leaving. But I don't believe that that is the only way to do it, and I don't believe it is "right" for all couples. The OW and the MM already have a R, and in most cases it's at the point where - were they both S - they would be considering moving in together. Putting false brakes on the R by enforcing a time apart can simply add to the strains.

 

My H and I lived together during his D, and I was glad to be able to provide the support to him that I would provide to any friend, but especially to the man I loved. If I left him to face that alone, while I continued my life somewhere else, I don't think I'd be demonstrating any kind of commitment to the R - especially not the kind of commitment one would want from someone one intended to make a life with.

 

Each situation is different - and Mino's is certainly not a blueprint for all.

Hi owoman, I think your relationship is queite different then most, since your guy came out of an abusive marriage. You were his safe haven, his rescuer. Your husband w was crazy. But I also think, the norm, that most guys who have Affairs do not have that kind of life at home. My guy didnt fight with his wife. They did get along. He always said she is a good person. There was never any fighting or screaming... It was a functional marriage, So maybe thats why my guy had more guilt too. Even today, they get along. They raise their child together.

[OWoman]

Hi owoman, I think your relationship is queite different then most, since your guy came out of an abusive marriage. You were his safe haven, his rescuer. Your husband w was crazy. But I also think, the norm, that most guys who have Affairs do not have that kind of life at home. My guy didnt fight with his wife. They did get along. He always said she is a good person. There was never any fighting or screaming... It was a functional marriage, So maybe thats why my guy had more guilt too. Even today, they get along. They raise their child together.

 

I'm nobody's safe anything... If he expected that, he must have had a shock...

 

But seriously, my H is a "rescuer", which was how he landed up with his "crazy" xW (thanks for that - I get attacked if I hint she's not quite rational...) in the first place. He has one of these "knight in shining armour" things where he feels obliged to rescue damsels in distress. He didn't know what to make of me, since I was neither damsel nor in distress... But no, I didn't do any rescuing. That's not my style - I want someone I can respect, not someone I have to take care of. He knew that, and stepped up to the plate - got himself into IC, faced his demons, and came to me as an equal. I would not have given him the time of day otherwise - I'm nobody's social worker!

 

I guess one of the differences is the financial situation. Your guy gives most of his income to his xW, and contributes very little to your household, and I can see how this would create tensions. Because my H (on paper) has equal custody, there is no child support issue, since (in theory) both parents are contributing equally to the costs of parenting. And, despite her best efforts, no spousal maintenance - so there is no ongoing financial obligation or link. If my H were in your guy's position, continuing to subsidise his xW while contributing minimally to our household, I think I would also feel a bit grumpy - especially if this hadn't been negotiated upfront.

[jlola]

OWoman was in a unique situation. H's ex wife was crazy and abusive and she had a chance to live with him? Now I understand why her situation is one of the few that worked out. But she cannot think that is the norm.

 

Mino's situation seems much more common. It is usually an illusion when you do not spend time with a man you are dating in friend and family situations.

When you only hear his version of who he is rtaher than see how he interacts with loved ones.

 

When you are together alone in a bubble talking about how life will be when you two are finally together.Fantasizing together.

 

Someone said people n affairs are given a playbook, that a regular relationship is not privy to. The Playbook tells you what the Spouse is doing wrong to turn MW/MM to the affair. Lack of sex,nagging whatever it is. Affair person than subconsciously does the opposite.

 

Now how many people in regular dating get this playbook? How many would stay if man they are dating sits there and complained about ex girlfriends issues and behavior immedietly? IT usually takes awhile for things like that to come up. But with affairs it usually comes up right away. They bond through the talk about bad spouse,or bad marriage.

 

I was speaking with an African woman recently who married her affair partner. She thought his wife was a horrible person because he told her so. She thought the wife made this man miserable and any flaws she saw in him she attributed to this woman's treatment of him. She thought how can any woman treat this amazing man as anything but a king?? When she finally married him she began to meet people who knew the ex-wife and eventually met her herself since he had a son. She said everyone had not one bad word to say about the ex. Everyone thought she was a wonderful person,she included. But she soon realized her H is controlling and way different then when they were in the affair.

 

My father has NPD, but I doubt any of his affair partners can see that as he can be the most charming man in the world to those outside. Just treats his own family like dirt. My 4x married sister married her 2nd H who was affair partner. He realized soon enough the sweet wonderful woman he thought he was rescuing is self absorbed and tends to use people. He ran for the hills. Guy who is my handyman married his affair partner(she was married) and they divorced after 4 years. He says an affair should stay just that. He thinks the illusion rarely lives up in reality.

 

A friend of mine is a therapist and says affairs are usually about something going on internally with person having affair. It rarely has to do with the spouse being a bad person or needs not being met. But noone wants to deal with internal issues. It's easier to blame the spouse for their unhappiness and search for happiness externally rather than internally.

 

People who do not search internally for solutions to their lack of happiness and search externally for a solution(temporary) bring the same issues years later to new relationships.

[OWoman]

OK, so as to stop the "which one is more "normal"?" t/j which seems to be developing here, here are some links to previous threads of other MMs who left their Ms to be with their OWs...

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194408

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191753

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t157697/

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143083

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122766

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119234

[dreamingoftigers]

The odds are approximately 1.25% chance of an affair turning into a marriage.

So there is a chance by I wouldn't be booking that plane ticket to Vegas just yet, unless you are going there to gamble where the odds are much better.

 

Wow, is that so? How did you calculate it to come up with this result? 1.25%?

 

Hi again, to respond, I did read this from a text that I had procured from a Psych course dealing with family dynamics. I have done a bit of googling and haven't found any other percentage online aside from:

 

"According to [COLOR=#448888]Dr. Willard Harley[/COLOR], expert in the field of extramartial affairs and writer of a number of books on how to rebuild marriages after an affair and how to affair-proof your marriage, cites the daunting statistics: only 5% extramarital affairs end in marriage, and of those marriages, 75% will end in divorce."

 

"A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers."

 

Although neither one of these stats fell to the 1-2% range, I wouldn't trifle around with those odds being single.

 

Interesting, because where I come from this percentage is a great deal higher. Approx 80% of the A's ended up in M.

 

I would be 100% shocked to see those odds be validated. The inherent instability of any regular R would come up to less then that.

 

My father has NPD, but I doubt any of his affair partners can see that as he can be the most charming man in the world to those outside. Just treats his own family like dirt. My 4x married sister married her 2nd H who was affair partner. He realized soon enough the sweet wonderful woman he thought he was rescuing is self absorbed and tends to use people. He ran for the hills. Guy who is my handyman married his affair partner(she was married) and they divorced after 4 years. He says an affair should stay just that. He thinks the illusion rarely lives up in reality.

 

Typical situation with my father as well. To people who were vulnerable or naive he was golden. He would give tons of money, time and help to those struggling, even if they didn't want it to simply draw you in close and then discard you when you saw the cracks in the veneer. I can't believe how ridiculously trusting my mother repeatedly was over how every brand new shiny friend and acquaintance shortly thereafter because an "*******."

 

As for affair marriages: I have noticed a lot of hopeful thinking with a lot of OW on LS. There seems to be a "have patience and he will come around" mentality. Aside from any moral implications or other effects on family etc., it seems dangerous to invest with someone that you are putting so much stock in. Having an affair relationship and hoping it will turn legitimate is two different levels that someone who is so conflict-avoidant to be having an affair in the first place would be able to navigate.

 

The odds of a single guy-single girl relationship turning into a legitimate, long-lasting marriage seems low nowadays. In Canada the divorce rate sits around 37%, and there are more unhappy marriages. (This is the total combined rate however). Among Mormons marrying Mormons the D rate is 13% (both would presumably believe in monogamy, saving yourself and a forever marriage with family being the pinnacle to life).

 

With an affair it seems like the odds of the relationship surviving into a sucessful relationship/marriage decrease because:

 

A) The odds of the MM/MW having a set of whole, healthy feelings and a healthy outlook on relationships would be lowered. (Seems less likely with an AP then a single person, not that a single person is by far guaranteed to have this).

B) The odds of MW/MM attracting someone with those healthy feelings and outlook would be lower. (Especially since they are willing to participate in an affair, why you are willing to accept and affair as a legitimate relationship in itself seems odd considering the risk/investment involved alone).

C) The fact that this individual has not necessarily followed through on the most heavily serious of relational vows. (This would suggest major personal incongruencies, the earmark of relational failure tends to come with the scope and degree of personal and partner lack of capability to be honest with one's self).

D) A sense of empathy for the risk that they are exposing their partner to. (STDs, pregnancy etc.)

E) It relies on trust on the forefront for someone that has visibly demonstrated that they are not trustworthy. You literally have to be able to convince yourself that your MM/MW is what they claim they are while clearly, legally, morally, and obviously not being that very thing.

F) They are often relationship built under intense stress, scrutiny, secrecy and disapproval. Anything that brings shame home in a relationship tends to weaken it in the long run.

G) The emotions tend to be very intense and somewhat competitive. Without being able to develop a relationship in the open, it is very hard to see what that relationship will become in the open. Who is this person really when they no longer have a spouse meeting some of their needs. And don't kid yourself, if they wanted to be out of their marriage 100%, they already would be. If they are at 90% then that is not nearly good enough. I would not consider it a safe risk to date a single guy who had a 10% chance of getting back together with his ex.

 

In relationships, there are very few sure bets, but there are ways to increase the odds. Considering that life is ****ing short, picking the best odds with who to spend your time with is excessively important for your own well-being. Frankly, I wouldn't have an affair with someone that would have an affair with me, it tells me that they don't expect enough from me and I wouldn't have any respect for them.

[donnamaybe]

In relationships, there are very few sure bets, but there are ways to increase the odds. Considering that life is ****ing short, picking the best odds with who to spend your time with is excessively important for your own well-being. Frankly, I wouldn't have an affair with someone that would have an affair with me, it tells me that they don't expect enough from me and I wouldn't have any respect for them.

You're one smart cookie, DOT.

[jthorne]

only 5% extramarital affairs end in marriage, and of those marriages, 75% will end in divorce."

<snip>

Although neither one of these stats fell to the 1-2% range, I wouldn't trifle around with those odds being single.

Yeah it does add up. If you take the 5% and subtract out the 75% that divorce, you're left with the 1.25% that actually stayed together.

 

There's probably a very good reason that there are not good odds.

[Spark1111]

These are the odds I read as I acquired my degree in Affairology over the last three years!

 

The high divorce rate of second marriages has lately been verified by sociologists who could give a hoot about affairs.

 

Their reasoning is having to rear a child not biologically your own causes huge stress and resentment in a marital relationship.

 

Mino, your words ring true and I applaud your honesty.

 

After the affair, a relationship is a relationship is a relationship with all it's warts and wrinkles and life issues to be worked through on a daily basis....just like any marriage or long-term partnership.

[alexandria35]

OK, so as to stop the "which one is more "normal"?" t/j which seems to be developing here, here are some links to previous threads of other MMs who left their Ms to be with their OWs...

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194408

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191753

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t157697/

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143083

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122766

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119234

 

 

Six threads going back over 4 years? Kind of illustrates the point that the odds are dismal wouldn't you say?

[donnamaybe]

Six threads going back over 4 years? Kind of illustrates the point that the odds are dismal wouldn't you say?

I know, huh?! Go back over four years and try to put up links to all the bad endings to A's that have been posted on LS, and you'll crash the entire WWW.

[OWoman]

These are the odds I read as I acquired my degree in Affairology over the last three years!

 

The high divorce rate of second marriages has lately been verified by sociologists who could give a hoot about affairs.

 

Their reasoning is having to rear a child not biologically your own causes huge stress and resentment in a marital relationship.

 

So - if there are no children involved, or the children have already left home - odds improve?

 

Perhaps my father was wise then to wait until we'd all left home before he Dd my mother and Md his fOW. And perhaps those MMs staying for the kids know something the others don't...

[OWoman]

Six threads going back over 4 years? Kind of illustrates the point that the odds are dismal wouldn't you say?

 

Where did you see it claim to be an exhaustive list? It was simply a few that I remember off-hand. If anyone is that interested, they can do the research themselves - I have a life.

 

The point, as I'd stated (if anyone is actually concerned with what anyone writes, as opposed to sourcing ammunition to back up their own agendas ) was that they were samples against which to get some sense of what a "typical" scenario might be when a MM leaves - since this thread has turned into a "Mino vs OWoman" typicality scenario contest :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[silktricks]

I didn't read this entire thread, so it's possible that this is a re-hash of some other post.

 

I have NO IDEA of the percentage of affairs that lead to marriage. I think it's probable that it is much higher than is published. On the other hand simply because either a man or woman who is freshly divorced is soon dating or soon married is not necessarily indicative they were having an affair prior to divorce. I know some people would like to believe it, but that doesn't make it true . (Twasn't for me... ). Though I've often wondered if I had met my current husband when married to the former one what would have happened....

 

Some of my best friends were affair partners prior to divorce/remarriage. They are a bit embarrassed about it, but those of us who know them well are fully aware. It's not as if they advertise it from the rooftops, so why should you know if couple x, y or z "knew" each other when one or the other (or both) were still married to someone else. It's really no one's business but their own, is it? They are happy together - in the long run, isn't that really what matters? Not how they met, or how what they did was inappropriate in our society, but that they are happy now...

 

disclaimer: both my husband and I were married previously (in church), so I do not believe the "once married always married" jargon that I see here so often. After all, if I was still married to my 1st husband I'd be insane by now...

[BeachBetty]

Where did you see it claim to be an exhaustive list? It was simply a few that I remember off-hand. If anyone is that interested, they can do the research themselves - I have a life.

 

The point, as I'd stated (if anyone is actually concerned with what anyone writes, as opposed to sourcing ammunition to back up their own agendas ) was that they were samples against which to get some sense of what a "typical" scenario might be when a MM leaves - since this thread has turned into a "Mino vs OWoman" typicality scenario contest :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Well, I do have a life, but I really thought researching this might benefit everyone on the forum: (Disclaimer: this is not an exhaustive list either, I found enough to make a point:

 

There's obviously you, GEL, JeNeRegreteRien (sp?) OldEurope, Lyssa, ScaredInLove, BabyBird, Cliche, Sumdude's XW, GotIt, MizBlue, BrokenLady, Mino, Tami-Chan, MotoMan and I'm sure there's others but hey in addition to the 6 listed above, here are more.

 

Twenty-one posters.

 

What I think is probably more dismal: the number of HAPPILY, RECONCILED MP's.

 

And maybe not all the R's listed are working out happily ever after, when you put them up against other couples, it's pretty much a similar picture.

[pureinheart]

Well, I do have a life, but I really thought researching this might benefit everyone on the forum: (Disclaimer: this is not an exhaustive list either, I found enough to make a point:

 

There's obviously you, GEL, JeNeRegreteRien (sp?) OldEurope, Lyssa, ScaredInLove, BabyBird, Cliche, Sumdude's XW, GotIt, MizBlue, BrokenLady, Mino, Tami-Chan, MotoMan and I'm sure there's others but hey in addition to the 6 listed above, here are more.

 

Twenty-one posters.

 

What I think is probably more dismal: the number of HAPPILY, RECONCILED MP's.

 

And maybe not all the R's listed are working out happily ever after, when you put them up against other couples, it's pretty much a similar picture.

 

Well, mine, add Bonehead and Happy at last, there are many more...

 

I think it's easier to believe that A's don't turn into anything, although with the thousands of people I worked with and many of them having A's and shortly after leaving for AP...sorry, but it happens all of the time.