Multiple D-Days = Less Guilt?

[OWoman]

I am the BS, and we have had multiple D-days. A D-day doesn't mean that I stop loving my husband, so why would I leave him if he decides he wants to stay with me, that he loves me more? The D-days have been with multiple other women throughout the years, so I don't believe there is true love involved. It is probably more a sign of sexual addiction. He is going to Twelve Step programs, so I am hoping he will get the help he needs to solve this issue there.

 

I have not seen his guilt increase or decline throughout the years. Could that be because his is a case of sexual addiction?

 

Trinity, I agree with BO's caution. Medicalising his As may help you feel better about your R, but it may be misplaced. Some men may be broken and may have As to compensate for that brokenness inside themselves. Others may have As to compensate for a brokenness within the M. Either way, your H's choosing not to leave the M could amount to many things beside "loving you more". Before sending him off to a 12 step programme, I'm assuming you went through competent MC, ruling out R issues as the source of his need to look elsewhere for intimacy?

[2themoon&back]

What changed for me? Life and love, lots of both. For me, it wasn't anything to do with a MM or with a d-day. I guess I was too selfish for those to change me significantly. For me, it was receiving and giving a lot more love that gradually changed me, so that I'm sure if I were involved with a MM now I would feel guilt. Then I didn't.

 

I actually came to LS somewhat tempted by a MM, but thinking it was a bad idea, and just reading this forum really drove home to me what a bad idea it was. I've stayed (on LS) because I am still interested in just the question you ask - what changes things for others? Seems like for many, it is the personal pain, but for me, it was rather the opposite. Lots of unconditional love finally made me more sensitive to how my actions affect others. So I choose not to become involved with MM, not to protect myself from pain, but because I don't want to touch others in that hurtful way. I'm in an open M, so for me, it is all about the deception, not about people sharing emotional and/or physical connections outside of M.

 

I am glad you stated the bolded... it would seem that this statement would be a guide for some LS posters, that being more sensitive to others and their feelings would not indicate "handholding" or condoning anyone’s behavior, just using a gentler approach to support, that as you stated, has had a positive effect.

 

So, in your open M, you do not need to be deceitful when you are with someone else, right? And in your open M do you or your spouse, ever have relationships with MAP’s or only single AP’s, to avoid DDays?

 

I do not know much about the philosophy of an open M, so I do not know if you have EA’s or PA’s or both, and what is the proper reference to them because “A” does not seem to fit.

[2themoon&back]

Look after yourself.

You allow his cheating so why would he leave?

Equating his choice to reside with you as proof of his love is a huge assumption.

Hoping that his cheating is a "disease" is an excuse too far.

 

 

Good advice here, maybe something like alanon would also be helpful to the poster, because with most addictions there are those who enable that behavior, not saying that is the case here, just suggesting this could be helpful.

[bentnotbroken]

Bent, how many DDays did you have as a BS? One or More?

 

I ask because the topic of this tread and everyone here knows of your unwavering resolve in this area, I am thinking as a BS that has a no nonsense, no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chance opinion, could offer a very interesting perspective on the topic.

 

Do you think multiply DDays, influences the mindset or guilt level of the OW/OM, or the WS?

 

And if you have already stated this, excuse me for missing it.

 

 

One d-day for Mr. Messy's current affair and subsquentially everything came out about the others. I had already filed for divorce by the time

d-day happened. He was served 4 days after d-day. Because he had done it most of our marriage, there was no reason for him to feel guilt, so his "I'm sorry" meant very little. He made those choices over and over again with d-days. IMO d-days have very little to do with the guilt. I believe that most, not all, people who cheat have little or no guilt. I think that if actions hurt others and yourself(general), you remove the cause of the pain and you don't return to the source of that pain over and over again.

[trinity1]

I hope that the 12 step program helps; I have been told that this program is very successful in changing ones way of thinking no matter what the addiction.

 

Does your H show any guilt for his multiple A’s or indifference? IMO, that would determine his level of consciousness to the effect of his addiction and being a need for a 12 step program.

 

I find your input very interesting and wondered if your thoughts would be different if the MDD’s were with the same OW? Would that mean to you that “true love” was present in the A and would it have changed the outcome for you?

 

Yes, it would, because if true love was present my opinion is that he should follow his heart. Although it does take time to figure out whether it is true love or not. You can't really judge that in the beginning stages of a relationship. So I could understand someone keeping an affair secret until he was sure it was true love, so as not to destroy the marriage if it wasn't.

 

I would say my husband does not really show guilt, rather indifference, for his affairs. Could you elaborate on how you mean that that has an impact on the outcome of the Twelve Step program? I never believed in guilt as a positive factor.

[alexandria35]

Interesting indeed...

 

So if I understand this correctly I believe we would also be willing to conclude that People of character don't lie either. I mean cheating being a kind of lying with some kind of bad doing attached I guess. And you know I wouldn't say that stealing was exactly an example of character (well not good character at least). So people of character don't steal either (at least not from like a store but maybe from the IRS its ok or I guess that comes under lying, gosh its complicated).

 

So I guess if your write such a sentence you could fill in just about any sin (I mean who could disagree really). "People of character don't sin!". I mean whats the counter argument? People of character DO sin? Or people of character may commit the following venial sins...?

 

OK so if anyone's H is a man of character then he never...

 

Cheats or lies or steals or covets his neighbors wife (or ox or ass) or actually it appears sins in anyway.

 

So if your H is a man of character then I can think of only one man who that could be! Sorry to out you here but that makes you MRS. CHRIST!

 

That explains where the stones are coming from! Only one person authorized to throw those as we know!

 

I think we all know that none of us our perfect and that we all will sin from time to time. I also think that there is a huge difference between telling a fib on your tax return and living a life of deceit day in and day out. It doesn't make any sense to compare an isolated lie to an ongoing longterm affair in terms of dishonesty or character.

 

I remember telling my last longterm boyfriend a lie. It wasn't a huge lie but he had a tendency to fly of the handle over little things. He caught me off gaurd with a question one day and rather then get into it with him I chose to brush it off with a fib. I immediately felt horrible for doing it but convinced myself that it was okay because it didn't really hurt him in anyway but the truth would of pissed him off so the lie was probably better. Probably would have forgotten all about it but the problem was he started to question me about it again about a month later. The second time he asked me I could have just answered the same way I did the first time. I mean what was he going to do about it? He didn't have anyway of knowing the truth. However the minute he asked about it the second time I realized this was something that was bothering him and perhaps something that would hang between us in the future, so I immediately came clean. Of course he ended up being more hurt and pissed that I had lied to him then he was about the incident that I had lied about.

 

Yes good people of character and integrity are not perfect and will do the wrong thing at times. But living in a lie everyday of your life? I would think that if a good man was in an affair, that this kind of ongoing deceit would surely chip away at his character over time. I mean he has to lie over and over again to his spouse and children. How long can a person do that and still claim to be a person of honor and integrity? Could I deceive my employer or my best friend on a daily basis for years and still claim to be an honest upstanding person?

 

I think it's a giant rationalization to say the person who told a lie on their tax return is no different than the man who looks into the eyes of his children and spouse everday and lies. I mean if we're going to take that approach then I guess it's just a free for all where anything goes. Who cares if I lie to best friends, deceive my family, steal from my employer. Hey you can't judge me or tell me my behaviour is wrong because your a sinner too right? As a matter of fact why do we even bother to teach our kids honesty and right from wrong? Since we've decided that lying day in and day out on an ongoing basis isn't a measure of ones character anyways, and since we know that we all sin, why are we trying to impose the importance of being honest on our children?

[trinity1]

Look after yourself.

You allow his cheating so why would he leave?

Equating his choice to reside with you as proof of his love is a huge assumption.

Hoping that his cheating is a "disease" is an excuse too far.

 

There is truth in what you are saying. I will keep that in mind.

[woinlove]

I am glad you stated the bolded... it would seem that this statement would be a guide for some LS posters, that being more sensitive to others and their feelings would not indicate "handholding" or condoning anyone’s behavior, just using a gentler approach to support, that as you stated, has had a positive effect.

 

I don't think one will experience the transformative power of love through an anonymous forum, but I do think this format has the power to perhaps nudge someone who already has some internal push in that direction. It is always a good idea to be sensitive to others, and a gentle approach may well work better in nudging most people. But some may be nudged by a more direct approach. Maybe seeing some of both is good, as long as it is all respectful and addressing the actions or statements, rather than attacking the person. People have strong opinions on issues surrounding marriage, honesty, sex, love, deception, affairs, etc. I don't mind hearing strong negative opinions voiced in a blunt way (I got some of those in the MLP forum on open M) but a few cross over into belligerence. I doubt those sway anyone, at least not in the way intended.

 

So, in your open M, you do not need to be deceitful when you are with someone else, right? And in your open M do you or your spouse, ever have relationships with MAP’s or only single AP’s, to avoid DDays?

 

We do not get involved with married partners unless they are also in an open R. At the beginning, that was not always the case, but it has been for a long time and, as I mentioned, my one temptation was not pursued. It is not just to avoid ddays, but because we value openness and honesty.

 

I do not know much about the philosophy of an open M, so I do not know if you have EA’s or PA’s or both, and what is the proper reference to them because “A” does not seem to fit.

 

I don't know what to call them either, I just refer to them as friends and/or lovers, as the case may be. For us, mostly they are emotional connections, but a few have been physical over the years.

[trinity1]

One d-day for Mr. Messy's current affair and subsquentially everything came out about the others. I had already filed for divorce by the time

d-day happened. He was served 4 days after d-day. Because he had done it most of our marriage, there was no reason for him to feel guilt, so his "I'm sorry" meant very little. He made those choices over and over again with d-days. IMO d-days have very little to do with the guilt. I believe that most, not all, people who cheat have little or no guilt. I think that if actions hurt others and yourself(general), you remove the cause of the pain and you don't return to the source of that pain over and over again.

 

I agree with this insofar that I believe that if a D-day is needed for a married man to feel guilty, then he does not really feel guilt for his affair in my opinion. He just regrets being caught with his pants down.

[OWoman]

 

Not IMO. Lying on your tax return is a heinous crime IMO - far worse than an A. An A hurts perhaps one person (if the BS finds out) while lying on your tax return hurts the entire country, depriving the needy of schools, health care, roads, etc.

[OWoman]

I also think that there is a huge difference between telling a fib on your tax return and living a life of deceit day in and day out.

 

Not IMO. Lying on your tax return is a heinous crime IMO - far worse than an A. An A hurts perhaps one person (if the BS finds out) while lying on your tax return hurts the entire country, depriving the needy of schools, health care, roads, etc.

Edited February 13, 2011 by OWoman

[SuzieWong]

Not IMO. Lying on your tax return is a heinous crime IMO - far worse than an A. An A hurts perhaps one person (if the BS finds out) while lying on your tax return hurts the entire country, depriving the needy of schools, health care, roads, etc.

 

 

This is a very important point. The pain a spouse may feel it feels like death. This pain passes. The damage done to a growing economy can not so easily be undone. I think most of posters here live where they have everything. When you do not you know how evil it is to be keeping money from the people for necessities that make lives better.

[woinlove]

Not IMO. Lying on your tax return is a heinous crime IMO - far worse than an A. An A hurts perhaps one person (if the BS finds out) while lying on your tax return hurts the entire country, depriving the needy of schools, health care, roads, etc.

 

An interesting point. Certainly the amount of damage or pain might be one measure of a wrong. We see from LS, that often more than the BS is hurt by an affair (and we don't even hear from the children) but, still, it is a small group that is hurt compared to an entire country. But, is it really less of a wrong to steal $10,000 from one person than to steal $10,000 from a country (by lying on your tax return, for example)?

 

It reminds me about a case I read - one elderly man whose health was rapidly failing because he could not withstand the long hours working at a minimum-wage job after his retirement savings were stolen. The same amount stolen from the US Treasury could mean a 0.001% cutback on some schools. To this man it seemed to mean an early death, following a very sad few years. It is really the combined effect of people lying on their taxes that might cause losses to the people in a country. The combined effects of affairs on spouses, children, employers, families, might likewise be large.

 

Lying to those we share our lives with, those who love us and count on us, is wrong and lying on our taxes is wrong. I'm not sure how to weigh which is worse, but since the restrictions on social services are largely due to politics and to legal greed, rather than to false tax returns, it would seem that affairs causes more real pain to people, whatever the numbers are.

Edited February 13, 2011 by woinlove

[OWoman]

since the restrictions on social services are largely due to politics and to legal greed, rather than to false tax returns, it would seem that affairs causes more real pain to people, whatever the numbers are.

 

That may be the case in your country (whichever one that may be) but it is not the case in many countries, including mine.

 

Not all As result in crippling pain. Some result in no pain at all, for anyone. Yet cheating a country out of income inevitably hurts everybody - but especially the poor and needy - because there is less money to spend on the infrastructure that everybody uses. (Yes, even in wealthy countries, where politicians may choose to spend more on defence than on health, say - but withholding your taxes means there's even less to be spent on health than there would have been.)

[TigerCub]

Hi TigerCub.... I always enjoy your post.

 

I have tons of knowledge here on this subject, maybe I should not be so arrogant to say knowledge but RL experience.

 

I don’t feel on my A game today but I will give you some of my thoughts on this topic all the same.

 

My history as you may remember… I had 4 official DDays, and one half a$$ DDay, somewhere in the middle of the other ones.

 

On the 2nd DDay, I felt that the BS became an “active” part of the A triangle, no longer a victim, she was now a participant and this facilitated me to not feel very guilty after that. I felt that BS really did not care about WS or herself, so it helped me be ok with my part in it, because I did and still do love xMM very much and I did care what happened to him and again still do.

 

The BS, made a lot of threats to WS on the 1st DDay, which she did not follow through on, IMO, did not help her, M or the situation and left the door open to the other DDays. She never followed through on any of the threats on any of the DDays. So I am sure xMM, will eventually do this again, IMO, because he is unhappy in the M. He would still be with me if I did not stop the A, in a way that he cannot continue with me.

 

I also think multiple DDays with one AP and one WS and one BS is different that multiple DDays with several AP’s. Both are painful and they have some similarities but I do not think they are not the same.

 

The multiple DDays I experienced where very hard and confusing for me and very painful.

 

As for me I share a lot of the same views and attitude that Summer Breeze has from what I have read on her post.

 

Hey 2theMoon

 

I just checked in on this post - and wow! lotsa input from everyone.

 

Thank you for telling me about your experiences with regards to multiple d-days.

 

I agree with the part in bold. If the BS had actually showed the WS that this is unacceptable and she took real action, it might have scared him straight and made him open to actually facing and working on the issues in the M.

 

You mentioned how Ddays with the same AP vs. multiple APs

what do you think would be worse for the BS?

 

I can't decide on that one

because multiple APs says "I'll cheat on you with anyone"

while 1 AP says "we really have something going and while I could cheat on HER with others, I'm not"

 

I dunno - I think both would be hurtful, but I cant decide what's worse from the BS's standpoint.

 

What do you think?

[2themoon&back]

Hey 2theMoon

 

I just checked in on this post - and wow! lotsa input from everyone.

 

Thank you for telling me about your experiences with regards to multiple d-days.

 

I agree with the part in bold. If the BS had actually showed the WS that this is unacceptable and she took real action, it might have scared him straight and made him open to actually facing and working on the issues in the M.

 

You mentioned how Ddays with the same AP vs. multiple APs

what do you think would be worse for the BS?

 

I can't decide on that one

because multiple APs says "I'll cheat on you with anyone"

while 1 AP says "we really have something going and while I could cheat on HER with others, I'm not"I dunno - I think both would be hurtful, but I cant decide what's worse from the BS's standpoint.

 

What do you think?

 

I think for most BS’s, and I am speaking for myself as well here, one DDay is enough for ONE life time.

 

But if the WS is a “serial cheater”, and I would think after the 1st one, which I would call the “initial wound”, that the BS’s shock may start to dull some and the BS would become more or less thicker skinned than in the beginning, with each DDay with a new OP, over a long period of time . My guess would also be that this may be considered the lesser of the 2 evils, not saying either are good by no means, but in the nature that the BS may be able to see that the WS’s has a problem and not internalize the problem as their own, as OTH, they may internalize some of the responsibiliy if it is was ONE long term A, with one OP.

 

The MDD’s with ONE OP, would indicate to me that there were more feelings or attachments involved.

 

I would dare to guess, but IMO, MDD’s with one person may be harder to deal with, in part because as you stated above (bolded) and that it may also indicate a very strong connection with the AP, a connection to say that WS may be conflicted and may truly be considering leaving the M, not the A.

 

This one would be harder for me to forgive or endure, even if we were to reconcile afterwards.

[2themoon&back]

I don't think one will experience the transformative power of love through an anonymous forum, but I do think this format has the power to perhaps nudge someone who already has some internal push in that direction. It is always a good idea to be sensitive to others, and a gentle approach may well work better in nudging most people. But some may be nudged by a more direct approach. Maybe seeing some of both is good, as long as it is all respectful and addressing the actions or statements, rather than attacking the person. People have strong opinions on issues surrounding marriage, honesty, sex, love, deception, affairs, etc. I don't mind hearing strong negative opinions voiced in a blunt way (I got some of those in the MLP forum on open M) but a few cross over into belligerence. I doubt those sway anyone, at least not in the way intended.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying here, except for the transformative power of love part, maybe not transformative, but a level of lovingness or loving way, because one can most defiantly feel the true hate on an anonymous forum, and I would never say that hate is stronger than love on any level.

 

We do not get involved with married partners unless they are also in an open R. At the beginning, that was not always the case, but it has been for a long time and, as I mentioned, my one temptation was not pursued. It is not just to avoid ddays, but because we value openness and honesty.

 

So you felt that if the AP was not open and honest in their M, then AP would not be someone you would be able to respect and be involved with in any R, due to the lack of same values and such?

 

I don't know what to call them either, I just refer to them as friends and/or lovers, as the case may be. For us, mostly they are emotional connections, but a few have been physical over the years.

 

Thank you for your candor.

[2themoon&back]

One d-day for Mr. Messy's current affair and subsquentially everything came out about the others. I had already filed for divorce by the time

d-day happened. He was served 4 days after d-day. Because he had done it most of our marriage, there was no reason for him to feel guilt, so his "I'm sorry" meant very little. He made those choices over and over again with d-days. IMO d-days have very little to do with the guilt. I believe that most, not all, people who cheat have little or no guilt. I think that if actions hurt others and yourself(general), you remove the cause of the pain and you don't return to the source of that pain over and over again.

 

 

I am happy you found the inner strength that it takes to stop the source of your pain, some of us it does take longer and more than once to get there.

 

As for guilt and MDD's, it did have an effect on my perception of things, but I can only speak for myself and speculate on the xMM. For xMM, it seemed to give him confidence in the A, and less concern for the M, and he became more reckless and more bold in his actions, after all the DDays, even down to the last one, but as you said this does not = the level guilt though.

[bentnotbroken]

I am happy you found the inner strength that it takes to stop the source of your pain, some of us it does take longer and more than once to get there.

 

As for guilt and MDD's, it did have an effect on my perception of things, but I can only speak for myself and speculate on the xMM. For xMM, it seemed to give him confidence in the A, and less concern for the M, and he became more reckless and more bold in his actions, after all the DDays, even down to the last one, but as you said this does not = the level guilt though.

 

 

My post should have read he made the choices over and over again withOUT d-days. Sorry. I should proof read.

[2themoon&back]

My post should have read he made the choices over and over again withOUT d-days. Sorry. I should proof read.

 

 

 

So if you had decided to get a divorce before the DDay, and there were no other DDays to speak of, does this mean there were other issues not related to A's that made you seek a divorce? I ask because I always got the impression that his choice to be unfaithful was the reason for the divorce. Sorry if I got the wrong impression.

[bentnotbroken]

So if you had decided to get a divorce before the DDay, and there were no other DDays to speak of, does this mean there were other issues not related to A's that made you seek a divorce? I ask because I always got the impression that his choice to be unfaithful was the reason for the divorce. Sorry if I got the wrong impression.

 

 

I found out with his last affair that he had always cheated. I found about all the others because he was bragging to the ow about how he had gotten away with it. He and she were serial. No I never knew of the others during the time they occured. After d-day, he was confronted and admitted to the evidence I had(not that I believe he told me everything). Being cheated on, exposed to STD's, gaslighted and made to feel inferior for the better part of 20+ years let me know that his lip service of being sorry was NOT to be believed. His actions spoke volumes(they still do). Sorry got run...dinner dates(my kids) are waiting.

[2themoon&back]

I found out with his last affair that he had always cheated. I found about all the others because he was bragging to the ow about how he had gotten away with it. He and she were serial. No I never knew of the others during the time they occured. After d-day, he was confronted and admitted to the evidence I had(not that I believe he told me everything). Being cheated on, exposed to STD's, gaslighted and made to feel inferior for the better part of 20+ years let me know that his lip service of being sorry was NOT to be believed. His actions spoke volumes(they still do). Sorry got run...dinner dates(my kids) are waiting.

 

Thanks for your time, enjoy your Valentines dinner.

[woinlove]

 

So you felt that if the AP was not open and honest in their M, then AP would not be someone you would be able to respect and be involved with in any R, due to the lack of same values and such?

 

 

No, I don't view it that way - well, for a life partner, yes, it is important that my H and I share the same values. But, as to being involved in any R, I think about it more in terms of myself. I don't want to be involved in a situation involving deception and I don't want to encourage someone I like to be deceptive.

[TigerCub]

I think for most BS’s, and I am speaking for myself as well here, one DDay is enough for ONE life time.

 

But if the WS is a “serial cheater”, and I would think after the 1st one, which I would call the “initial wound”, that the BS’s shock may start to dull some and the BS would become more or less thicker skinned than in the beginning, with each DDay with a new OP, over a long period of time . My guess would also be that this may be considered the lesser of the 2 evils, not saying either are good by no means, but in the nature that the BS may be able to see that the WS’s has a problem and not internalize the problem as their own, as OTH, they may internalize some of the responsibiliy if it is was ONE long term A, with one OP.

 

The MDD’s with ONE OP, would indicate to me that there were more feelings or attachments involved.

 

I would dare to guess, but IMO, MDD’s with one person may be harder to deal with, in part because as you stated above (bolded) and that it may also indicate a very strong connection with the AP, a connection to say that WS may be conflicted and may truly be considering leaving the M, not the A.

 

This one would be harder for me to forgive or endure, even if we were to reconcile afterwards.

 

Thanks for you thoughts on this 2theMoon,

 

The part in bold is a likely possibility and yeah, I guess it would make MDDs' with 1 AP way more hurtful that MDD's with many APs.

 

Agreed though - 1 DDay, 1 betrayal, I'm sure is more than enough. I can't imagine how some survive multiple DDays.

[2themoon&back]

Thanks for you thoughts on this 2theMoon,

 

The part in bold is a likely possibility and yeah, I guess it would make MDDs' with 1 AP way more hurtful that MDD's with many APs.

 

Agreed though - 1 DDay, 1 betrayal, I'm sure is more than enough. I can't imagine how some survive multiple DDays.

 

I’m the OW, and the A has been over for 6 months and it has not been determined if I am going to survive all the MDD’s yet!!!

 

I cannot imagine how it is for the BS.

 

I try to do it a minute at a time and hope that tomorrow I can do it an hour at a time … and maybe one day it will be A whole day at a time. I wish us all the best !!!