Wanting Intimacy w/o Sex

[Honorable_Venerable]

Well, from what I know about your wife HV, I think the 'Nelson approach' is a very likely possibility. She seems to be afraid of seeing the message and, hopefully, her therapy will help her face her fear.

 

I don't think my wife has a monopoly on it. I suspect that many partners (of both sexes) deliberately ignore very clear messages and claim that their partner didn't say what bothered them. After all, it's pretty easy to do unless someone sits you down and follows a "Hey you! Yes, you, across the table! Now hear this. This is not a drill. Give me / sex / intimacy / attention / time / whatever. Do you read me?" approach.

 

Going back to the other possiblities, if a woman does get the message and her thought pattern or response is anything but option 1, then I'm not sure why a man would want to stay married to her. To me, when you reach that level of uncaring, or even deliberatly wanting to hurt your partner, the marriage is pretty much over.

Because walking out isn't a zero-sum game. You start having to balance issues like access to children, before you even get to the financial hit you might take. Plus, it isn't (with sex) necessarily as simple as saying you want it, you should get it and your partner should step up. There's a constant thread that it's wrong to demand sex of an unwilling partner. Therefore many partners who want more sex from a partner who doesn't will ask themselves whether it is THEM that are wrong. A lot of partners of both sexes are uncaring about their partner's sexual wants simply because they themselves don't see it as a problem so see no reason to do anything.

[LittleTiger]

"Hey you! Yes, you, across the table! Now hear this. This is not a drill. Give me / sex / intimacy / attention / time / whatever. Do you read me?" approach.

 

This made me laugh out loud because that's pretty much exactly how I approach things and I never understand why other people don't do the same.

 

Even so, I put the options on the table right in front of my exH and he 'carried on regardless' until our marriage collapsed around our feet. So even that approach can still draw a blank.

 

Because walking out isn't a zero-sum game. You start having to balance issues like access to children, before you even get to the financial hit you might take. Plus, it isn't (with sex) necessarily as simple as saying you want it, you should get it and your partner should step up. There's a constant thread that it's wrong to demand sex of an unwilling partner. Therefore many partners who want more sex from a partner who doesn't will ask themselves whether it is THEM that are wrong. A lot of partners of both sexes are uncaring about their partner's sexual wants simply because they themselves don't see it as a problem so see no reason to do anything.

 

Oh believe me, I understand. Been there, done that, worn the t-shirt and nearly went insane in the process. Luckily for me, my exH made the decision to walk (yes, I consider myself lucky because nowadays I am very happy with a man who is so much better for me). We didn't have kids either which made things a lot easier all round.

 

I'm not sure I could ever have made that decision myself despite our lack of sex and intimacy but there is no doubt our marriage was over years before it ended - I just couldn't see it at the time. Sometimes, I suppose you have to accept that things won't change and either learn to live with them as they are - or leave.

 

I understand why you're choosing not to leave - there's a lot at stake - but if you really believed your wife didn't care or was hurting you deliberately I'd hazard a guess you might be making different choices. From what you've said she does care and she isn't doing it deliberately so it makes sense for you to hang in there.

Edited February 21, 2011 by LittleTiger

[Honorable_Venerable]

This made me laugh out loud because that's pretty much exactly how I approach things and I never understand why other people don't do the same.

 

In a rough bar, frequented by bikers, that I used to drink in, there was a sign on the wall:

 

"Please do not yell to be served, as a punch in the mouth may offend".

 

Asking for something loudly, clearly and unmistakeably, even when it's a reasonable thing to ask for, sometimes simply gets peoples' backs up, and means you get even less of what you want.

[LittleTiger]

In a rough bar, frequented by bikers, that I used to drink in, there was a sign on the wall:

 

"Please do not yell to be served, as a punch in the mouth may offend".

 

Asking for something loudly, clearly and unmistakeably, even when it's a reasonable thing to ask for, sometimes simply gets peoples' backs up, and means you get even less of what you want.

 

I see your point but it usually works well for me - especially in the relationship I have now - he doesn't like people being 'vague'. I was brought up to call a spade a spade and 'if you don't ask you don't get' - though obviously I ask nicely - yelling gets nobody anywhere fast.

 

It worked with my exH too until the marriage went to pot - by the time we were having the 'I need sex' conversation he hadn't been listening to me for years - just took me a while to realise it.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I see your point but it usually works well for me - especially in the relationship I have now - he doesn't like people being 'vague'. I was brought up to call a spade a spade and 'if you don't ask you don't get' - though obviously I ask nicely - yelling gets nobody anywhere fast.

Herein lies another paradox;).

One person's calling a spade a spade is another's boorish directness. In some peoples' books, those who ask are greedy. And one person's reasoned, reasonable request is another person's whining or nagging.

[giotto]

 

Because walking out isn't a zero-sum game. You start having to balance issues like access to children, before you even get to the financial hit you might take. Plus, it isn't (with sex) necessarily as simple as saying you want it, you should get it and your partner should step up. There's a constant thread that it's wrong to demand sex of an unwilling partner. Therefore many partners who want more sex from a partner who doesn't will ask themselves whether it is THEM that are wrong. A lot of partners of both sexes are uncaring about their partner's sexual wants simply because they themselves don't see it as a problem so see no reason to do anything.

 

This is it... HV...

[LittleTiger]

Perhaps she knows but just doesnt care....

 

Theres always that possiblilty

 

Very true - have you considered asking her?

[LittleTiger]

Herein lies another paradox;).

One person's calling a spade a spade is another's boorish directness. In some peoples' books, those who ask are greedy. And one person's reasoned, reasonable request is another person's whining or nagging.

 

Good point - though I'd wonder about compatibility if the two people were husband and wife.

 

When I had the 'I need sex' conversation with my exH I said something along the lines of:

 

"I'm really unhappy because I need A, B and C. Without these things I feel X, Y and Z . I need your help. I've tried everything I can think of and I don't know what else to do".

 

Of course, what he actually heard me say, I have no idea.

[uncool]

 

If a woman wants to express love by cuddling and hugging, that is fine. But if your mate wishes to express his love with sex, that is fine for him, too. Do not fault him for this or act like he is "sex crazed". A man craving sex is going to be turned on by close physical contact.

 

Once the flag is raised, his physical urges become stronger. If he knows from the onset that you are not going to want sex, he will avoid the "cuddling time" because you have blocked his way of expressing love. Cuddling without sex will feel like rejection to him. However, if he is content with his sex life, he will be happy to cuddle because he is not deprived and does not feel rejected.

 

Women and men both often have unrealistic expectations from a marriage. But when a man is getting regular sex, it is usually a win-win situation for both spouses. IMO, men are generally happier, more agreeable, willing to cuddle and help out around the house when they are getting regular sex.

 

If you are a woman that is denying her husband sex, you should really reconsider because you are blocking his way to express his love. Long term, this will lead to him feeling rejected, and then resentment. A man that resents you will be much less willing to help you and will have a negative attitude towards you and the marriage.

quiet storm... you are a genious. As a man...I want the orginal poster to understand what Quiet Storm just said in these short 4 paragraphs.

 

Most women do not get how important sex is to a man. When you reject a man sexually you reject who they are-not just the sex..especially if it's all the time. It's not just about orgasm-it's about how they connect and how they feel about themselves. I guarantee you- a man who has been freshly laid the night before goes into that meeting with a client with more confidence and a spring in his step. His wife thinks he's a winner and she loves him evident by what happened the night before- he can slay dragons.

pixie... you're a genius also!. Well said. It's embarrassing to get an erection from cuddling especially if you know darn well your wife doesn't want anything to do w/sex. Our wifes are just to gorgeous for us to not get turned on by cuddling if we're sex starved. Cuddling is easy for a guy if he has a normal sexual relationship. If he doesn't have a normal sexual relationship... then cuddling is torture.

 

**Imagine if you ladies haven't had anything to eat in days (you're starving) and your husband wants you to help him make chocolate chip cookies... but you can't eat any of the dough or cookies because that's not what he's looking for or has in mind at the moment... he just wants help making them(snuggling).... that the dough and cookies are not intended to alleviate your hunger. He told you those cookies would be for you after you got married. So you married him but now those cookies are only for the children and to look nice on a plate while at the same time drive you crazy. You know darn well you can't touch them or he'll get pissed off. What if he were to share those cookies with you because he loved you and knew you were craving them & wanted to make you happy? Would you want to even be around the cookies if you knew in advance he would yank the cookie out of your mouth? hell no because even the smell of those cookies drive you crazy.

 

cookies = wife's body

[tommyr]

IMO, men are generally happier, more agreeable, willing to cuddle and help out around the house when they are getting regular sex.

 

Absolutely true !! And the converse is also true, just ask StoneCold:

 

I can attest to this...I'm in a sexless marriage and as a result I've become a **** husband that doesn't give a flying rats ass; I'm an awesome, loving dad to my daughter but one crappy husband and the glaring contrast really sends my message across.

 

So AVR1962: you want more intimacy? That seems reasonable!

How often do you have sex, versus how often does your husband desire sex?

If his sexual needs are not being met, can you see why your intimacy needs might be a challenge?

[Barrsitter]

My wife pulled this last night. No sex in the past 2 weeks. We're each freshly showered and climbing into bed when she announces "Let's cuddle." This is her code for we can snuggle but not have sex. Um, no thanks, I don't need that frustration. We have plenty of non-sexual contact during the day. I'm anticipating sex in this situation, and I'm pretty disappointed when I'm just cut off.

 

A previous poster said it best when she acknowledged that for many men, sex is our best form of intimacy. Making love is how we show affection. It's much more to us than cuddling.

 

I am a 54 year old woman who has not been in a real relationship for 18 years since my marriage ended. I miss sex very much. I want to be married and have sex and cuddling and playing and dreaming and hanging out with a man who thinks I hung the moon. I'm lonely and am tired of the spending so much time alone. I find so many of these posts about women not wanting to have sex with their husbands, incomprehensible. Why get married if you don't want sex with your man? If you don't want sex with your man, you shouldn't have married him or at the very least, you should have given him plenty of notice before you get married that you intend to frustrate the hell out of him shortly after you get married. I would give anything to be married to the right man. End of rant. Thanks for listening.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I am a 54 year old woman who has not been in a real relationship for 18 years since my marriage ended.<snipped for brevity> Thanks for listening.

 

Unfortunately there are many (of both sexes, based on what gets written here on LS) for whom marriage is NOT about having sex. It's ONLY about companionship, stability, procreation and social status. I suppose many people come to marriage with the view that it's those things AND sex, then find their partner doesn't agree.

 

Sex for these people is one of those distasteful things you have to do but don't enjoy, like paying bills and cleaning toilets. These people, once they don't feel they HAVE to have sex don't bother, in the same way that if they never needed to pay another bill they wouldn't bother.

[Barrsitter]

Yes...I agree...for some, marriage is not about sex. Two responses to that:

 

a. If both parties are fine with a marriage without sex, then that's great. The original poster on this thread however, is not in that type of mutually-agreed-to-no-sex. He wants sex. His wife doesn't. That spells trouble, to me.

 

b. In my humble opinion, a marriage without sex where both parties are physically capable of sex, is really a living arrangement much like brother and sister, room-mates. Again, if both are cool with that, that's no one's business. Where one party wants it and the other doesn't or refuses, that will inevitably lead to frustration, resentment, anger, affairs, etc., etc., or some combination thereof.

[giotto]

 

Sex for these people is one of those distasteful things you have to do but don't enjoy, like paying bills and cleaning toilets. These people, once they don't feel they HAVE to have sex don't bother, in the same way that if they never needed to pay another bill they wouldn't bother.

 

If you are talking about your wife, I think you are being a bit unfair. I do complain about my wife, but then she has issues and she is trying to cope with them. I do believe your wife has issues too (according to what you've said here), so, although it's not pleasant, at least she is dealing with them. What is probably unfair is that she took so long and your pressure to recognise that. Everybody has issues, big or small. The fact is: people with issues sometimes don't even know they have them or even try to sweep them under the carpet. The good news is: once they recognise them, some try and resolve them. The OP's post is all about conflict which is unresolved and they don't seem to be at the point where 1) it's been recognised as a problem by both and 2) there is no proactive approach to the problem. I'm very pleased for you that your wife is doing something about it. I wish I could say the same about my wife, but at least she is aware. The OP's situation seems to be a little bit more desperate. Am I making any sense?

[Honorable_Venerable]

Yes...I agree...for some, marriage is not about sex. Two responses to that:

 

a. If both parties are fine with a marriage without sex, then that's great. The original poster on this thread however, is not in that type of mutually-agreed-to-no-sex. He wants sex. His wife doesn't. That spells trouble, to me.

Absolutely. Based on what gets posted here, there are a significant number of people who treat sex as a means of getting married, and once they are married, don't bother. In the same way that they accept the necessity to make mortgage payments in order to buy a house. Once they have what they want, they stop "paying".

 

b. In my humble opinion, a marriage without sex where both parties are physically capable of sex, is really a living arrangement much like brother and sister, room-mates. Again, if both are cool with that, that's no one's business. Where one party wants it and the other doesn't or refuses, that will inevitably lead to frustration, resentment, anger, affairs, etc., etc., or some combination thereof.

Exactly. From what I have read, the Shakers managed perfectly well in mixed sex celibate communities. However, no one who decided to join the Shakers would have been in any doubt that it was a celibate community. Marriage isn't usually sold as being a sexless relationship. This comes later, and hence generates a misfit between expectation and reality that causes problems.

[Honorable_Venerable]

If you are talking about your wife, I think you are being a bit unfair.

 

If I were, I'd agree - I would be being unfair. This observation however derives from reading a lots of depressingly similar threads, authored by men and women, on these hallowed pages;)

 

I do complain about my wife, but then she has issues and she is trying to cope with them. I do believe your wife has issues too (according to what you've said here), so, although it's not pleasant, at least she is dealing with them.

 

You're quite right, but that's somewhat separate (you're talking specifics, I'm generalising). And you can't stop me...

The OP's post is all about conflict which is unresolved and they don't seem to be at the point where 1) it's been recognised as a problem by both and 2) there is no proactive approach to the problem. I'm very pleased for you that your wife is doing something about it. I wish I could say the same about my wife, but at least she is aware. The OP's situation seems to be a little bit more desperate. Am I making any sense?

Giotto, you ALWAYS make sense. I was commenting that there appears to be a reasonably sized community (of both sexes) that is content to have sex to get into a marriage, then for whatever reason drop it, and then declare this is the normal, default position. Whatever the reasons, issues or justifications, it seems odd that so many people can manage to achieve this cognitive dissonance!

[giotto]

Giotto, you ALWAYS make sense. I was commenting that there appears to be a reasonably sized community (of both sexes) that is content to have sex to get into a marriage, then for whatever reason drop it, and then declare this is the normal, default position. Whatever the reasons, issues or justifications, it seems odd that so many people can manage to achieve this cognitive dissonance!

 

Sorry, I think I misinterpreted your comments... I thought you were referring to your personal life in some form. Apologies.

 

The "phenomenon" you are describing above is indeed not that uncommon. Luckily, for us, my wife was well into sex until the birth of the second child and her use of ADs... when we have it, she really enjoys it, so I don't think she belongs to the category above. I tend to believe that most women go off sex a bit with the years. What about your wife?

 

My wife claims she is NOT depressed, but last night I found a book in her draw about fighting depression... I just wish she were straight with me... I don't think she will ever manage to communicate properly with me. I don't mind the illness, as long as I'm aware of it and I'm not left scratching my head for years...