Officer: women can avoid being a victim of sexual assault by not dressing slutty

February 18, 2011

So, you're going to complain now because no one agrees with your point of view, when you even say that you even knew this before you posted? That makes no sense It also has never made any sense to me to blame the victim for the crime.

Jesus H Christ...

go back and read what I said

February 18, 2011

Bravo Scott

Actually Amnesty International did studies on this and found that of course the way you dress doesnt in and of itself invite rape.....BUT they did notice a link to self presentation and rape in certain scenarios. Google it....

Scotts sentiments are mine... but Scott, I can tell you how this thread is going to be a gong show (I was hoping it wouldn't be but its evident with the first few posts) because people's PC blinders keep them focused on only part of the truth rather than the truth in ALL its entirety...so it will almost appear to be two separate arguments in the guise of one

Edited February 18, 2011 by StoneCold

February 18, 2011

Let's say that your sister or best female friend made a practice of walking around the streets of a city in a bikini by herself at night. Would you really not say something to her, something to the effect that even though it should not matter and you think it usually doesn't matter, she is going too far and taking a foolish risk? Maybe that example is too extreme. What would you say if your sister or best female friend made a practice of attending drunken college fraternity parties by herself wearing “slutty” clothing? Would you suggest that maybe that wasn't a good idea? I just feel like we have to get beyond this simplified notion that because we don't want to let men off the hook for responsibility we are completely unable to admit that there are things women can do to keep themselves more safe.

Yeah, your first example is a bit extreme, in the sense that everyone would find that rather weird here (and I live in a society where women dress very lightly in the summer) and it would be an issue of regular norms of conduct in public space, rather than 'dressing slutty'.

In your second example, my reaction would depend on the overall picture. If I had a friend who dressed 'provocatively' and went all alone to parties and repeatedly got dead drunk every Friday and Saturday, I would first and foremost approach that with her as an issue of her own well being. It would signal to me that she wasn't feeling happy with herself, that she was probably struggling with loneliness (if she was repeatedly going alone), and that she might have issues or problems she was trying to escape from (if she was getting over the top drunk several times a week), and that's how I would approach a situation. Clearly, her safety would be part of that discussion, but it wouldn't cross my mind to open the conversation with a 'if you keep dressing like that, you're going to invite rapists'. I might be caricaturing it slightly with that last phrase, but if you can look behind it I think the distinction in emphasis is significant.

More generally, in the social context where I live (and this view would be supported by national statistics), in terms of safety I'd be much more worried about extreme alcohol consumption than by what she wears. So, if this hypothetical friend was dressed 'provocatively' but went to parties with groups of friends and didn't end up drunk and otherwise seemed to carry herself with confidence, I wouldn't particularly address it with her, no, if we're talking short skirts and tank tops and a bit of belly (something I personally would never feel comfortable wearing). Depends what you mean by 'slutty', though. If it's something like this as in the woman to the left, I would generally question the motive for wearing something that's quite far out of the 'norm' in terms of what generally flies here for outfits.

February 18, 2011

Jesus H Christ...

go back and read what I said

I'm not Jesus

February 18, 2011

I just feel like we have to get beyond this simplified notion that because we don't want to let men off the hook for responsibility we are completely unable to admit that there are things women can do to keep themselves more safe.

What he said.

Its like they are comparing two things that shouldn't even be compared as they are two different issues. But the political agenda is a bitch

February 18, 2011

It often makes me wonder how men would feel if they went out into the world in a pair of cargo shorts and a tank top and got ass raped, only to be told while they were bleeding from their anus that they should stop wearing that attire by the people who are suppose to provide justice over the crime.

Would you feel they were dead set on helping you attain justice? Or would you feel like they blamed you for having to do their job and likely not put much effort into it?

February 18, 2011

Somehow I knew I'd get these responses

His comments came hand-in-hand with a "blame the victim" mantra - something that causes a great deal of harm and internalization of victims of sexual assault.

Statistically, victims of sexual assault are more likely to not come forward because of sentiments like this. It's not political correctness. It's a dishonest and incorrect opinion by a member of law enforcement that not only discourages victims, but leads to criminals still being left without justice.

It's the same thing as the "You must have asked for it" idea, which is fundamentally degrading to all victims of sexual assault.

February 18, 2011

I agree with Scottdmw.

I do not believe it is ever the woman's fault or that she is "asking for it".

However, rape happens for a variety of reasons. It is not always about power. It could be some horny addict hopped up on crack.

Many men, even those that are not rapists, view revealing clothes as "advertising". Most of the women that wear revealing clothes do it because the style appeals to them. To them, it is not about showing off their body to attract a man. But many men feel that a woman dressing "slutty" is doing it for attention. Male attention.

A rapist that thinks this way can easily justify in his mind that she wanted it. He would be absolutely wrong in his assumption, but that is no consolation to the victim.

Yes, we should be able to wear whatever we want and not be raped. But there are a lot of predatory people in this world, and we can take steps to protect ourselves. Men are very visual, and if you have an unbalanced psycho rapist that is scanning for his next victim, clothing could be what makes him pick you.

It's not fair, but it's reality.

My reality was being blessed (or cursed) with a super curvy body at a very early age. My big boobs, tiny waist and round booty have subjected me to the realities of male attraction over the years. Sadly, some men on this earth still believe that females were put here for their personal enjoyment. I am a professional, dress in conservative but form flattering business attire, and still have issues with inappropriate comments about my body. I refuse to fully defeminize myself with baggy/boxy clothes, but the reality is many men are visually stimulated and if you cross paths with a dangerous one, blending in can HELP to keep you safe, IMO.

February 18, 2011

A rapist that thinks this way can easily justify in his mind that she wanted it. He would be absolutely wrong in his assumption, but that is no consolation to the victim.

And therefore an authority figure suggesting that women could avoid rape by not dressing "slutty" is reinforcing the rapist's view that his assault is justified.

Thanks for pointing out exactly the problem with it.

We spend countless amount of time educating women on how to avoid dangerous situations. Time to start educating men on how to avoid getting caught in potential rape accusations.

February 18, 2011

Suggestive comments aside, rape is a crime. Wearing provocative clothing, is not. At least not in most Westernized countries. Yes, women can reduce the amount of attention drawn to her by wearing less revealing clothing. But drawing attention does not give a person free reign over another human beings mind, body and spirit.

It does not give a Pedophile the right to rape a little child and in some cases, murder, either....

Argue opposition of those against the officer's comments all you want, in fact, why don't you form an activist's group in support of the offenders versus the victims.....

February 18, 2011

However, rape happens for a variety of reasons. It is not always about power. It could be some horny addict hopped up on crack.

First of all, no one can have sex on crack because your body is so numb it can't feel anything. The only thing crack heads do while on crack is sit in a stupor. People always confuse addicts coming down as the same behavior while high. But FYI, when an addict is coming down they are pretty aware of what they are doing.

Anyways, secondly, rape is indeed about power. Always, every time. Please read the literature if you are not informed about this reality.

Personally, having been raped 3 times at 7 year intervals in my life, and probably being one of the few people responding to this thread who has actually looked into the eyes of a person who was raping them I can tell you for a fact that their eyes were - all of them - dead. Unaware of what was actually happening. They were all just miming out some weird melodrama in their heads, and I was just a place-holder.

So, that may be anecdotal evidence....but I went on to get a degree in psychology and I'm in grad school getting my master's right now, so I tend to read a lot of literature about this repulsive and wretched topic.

February 18, 2011

It often makes me wonder how men would feel if they went out into the world in a pair of cargo shorts and a tank top and got ass raped, only to be told while they were bleeding from their anus that they should stop wearing that attire by the people who are suppose to provide justice over the crime.

Would you feel they were dead set on helping you attain justice? Or would you feel like they blamed you for having to do their job and likely not put much effort into it?

Great analogy.

February 18, 2011

Would you feel they were dead set on helping you attain justice? Or would you feel like they blamed you for having to do their job and likely not put much effort into it?

As part of a list of many things to watch out for if on that list is "mind your attire is certain situations"... yes, I would welcome that is reasonable advice.

No I would not feel like I'm being blamed...No I wouldn't feel like they are taking up for the assailant...I would take it as advice that I can use to keep myself a bit safer.

This thread is turning out exactly as I thought it would

Edited February 18, 2011 by StoneCold

February 18, 2011

Suggestive comments aside, rape is a crime. Wearing provocative clothing, is not. At least not in most Westernized countries. Yes, women can reduce the amount of attention drawn to her by wearing less revealing clothing. But drawing attention does not give a person free reign over another human beings mind, body and spirit.

It does not give a Pedophile the right to rape a little child and in some cases, murder, either....

Argue opposition of those against the officer's comments all you want, in fact, why don't you form an activist's group in support of the offenders versus the victims.....

Theft is a crime. Carrying $1 million worth of diamond necklaces through a crime-ridden third world ghetto is not. Yet few people would say that your risk does not increase if you exercise your right to carry expensive flashy possessions in public view in such a dangerous area.

Clearly there's no moral obligation to cater to the potential actions of criminals. However, there's a common sense reality that certain actions invite crime more than others. The question here is whether dressing in more revealing clothing clearly increases the risk of rape. If it does, then it is simple common sense advice to state this reality. If it does not, then it is worthwhile to bust the widespread myth that 'dressing slutty' increases the danger to you.

It's a purely factual question - answerable by studying rape cases and looking for any unusually high correlation between dress code and rape occurrences. Morality and rights have nothing to do with it.

February 18, 2011

His comments came hand-in-hand with a "blame the victim" mantra - something that causes a great deal of harm and internalization of victims of sexual assault.

Statistically, victims of sexual assault are more likely to not come forward because of sentiments like this. It's not political correctness. It's a dishonest and incorrect opinion by a member of law enforcement that not only discourages victims, but leads to criminals still being left without justice.

It's the same thing as the "You must have asked for it" idea, which is fundamentally degrading to all victims of sexual assault.

Not at all

February 18, 2011

It's a purely factual question - answerable by studying rape cases and looking for any unusually high correlation between dress code and rape occurrences. Morality and rights have nothing to do with it.

See the problem there is they will tell you "No it doesn't because studies say its about power"; and agreed more often than not it is...but there are also studies that say in certain cases there is a link....its not the only reason but it is a contributing factor (Amnesty International). Not only that but I've never known a study to be able to address ALL situations.

So in as much as rape is about power and more often than not has nothing to do with clothing....to say that clothing/behaviour NEVER EVER can play a contributing factor in certain situations is absurd.

Funny thing is you ask these people if they want their daughter carrying on like that and see what they say.....wonder why

February 18, 2011

Theft is a crime. Carrying $1 million worth of diamond necklaces through a crime-ridden third world ghetto is not. Yet few people would say that your risk does not increase if you exercise your right to carry expensive flashy possessions in public view in such a dangerous area.

Clearly there's no moral obligation to cater to the potential actions of criminals. However, there's a common sense reality that certain actions invite crime more than others. The question here is whether dressing in more revealing clothing clearly increases the risk of rape. If it does, then it is simple common sense advice to state this reality. If it does not, then it is worthwhile to bust the widespread myth that 'dressing slutty' increases the danger to you.

It's a purely factual question - answerable by studying rape cases and looking for any unusually high correlation between dress code and rape occurrences. Morality and rights have nothing to do with it.

Yes of course. People in general, need to excercise caution. Just like rapists need to exercise self control and restraint.

February 18, 2011

Funny thing is you ask these people if they want their daughter carrying on like that and see what they say.....wonder why

What about your son? How would educate your son about rape? Would you tell him "women who dress slutty are asking for it?" or would you teach him that he has to respect everyone?

February 18, 2011

What about your son? How would educate your son about rape? Would you tell him "women who dress slutty are asking for it?" or would you teach him that he has to respect everyone?

LOL....show me where exactly I said or even implied that "women who dress slutty are asking for it?"

This isnt a justification topic...it wasnt in the article either....where on earth to you arrive at that? Why is it that people cannot think straight when it comes to topics like this?

But as usual when these topic come up people get way off base and take it sideways

Edited February 18, 2011 by StoneCold

February 18, 2011

I'll ignore your unjustified comments about rationality meerkat

Here is my question:

You've talked about educating women.

How would you educate your son about rape.

Let's face it: rape isn't perpetrated by victims. The most important factor in rape protection isn't educating our daughters, it's educating our sons.

How would you, do you educate your son? What should we tell our boys?

That's what this conversation should be about.

(over 97% of rapes are committed by men).

February 18, 2011

Yes of course. People in general, need to excercise caution. Just like rapists need to exercise self control and restraint.

Certainly....

But if we are talking about how you can keep yourself safer then you need to worry about what you can do and what you have control over. No sense worrying about what other people should or should not be doing...you have no control over that anyways.

February 18, 2011

I'll ignore your unjustified comments about rationality meerkat

Here is my question:

You've talked about educating women.

How would you educate your son about rape.

Let's face it: rape isn't perpetrated by victims. The most important factor in rape protection isn't educating our daughters, it's educating our sons.

How would you, do you educate your son? What should we tell our boys?

That's what this conversation should be about.

(over 97% of rapes are committed by men).

The same way I'd educate him about murder 1...whats your point. What this conversation should be about is the article I posted and the CONTEXT under which the events transpired. you want to talk about justification...start a new thread.

And Lets face it: Until Rape and Sexual Assault disappear off the face of the earth..... I'll be educating my daughter on how she can stay safe.

Now... do you want your daughter carrying on like that....answer my question...lets have your daughter walking around with half her tits and ass hanging out....would you say this is advisable???

Edited February 18, 2011 by StoneCold

February 18, 2011

Ok. How would you teach your son about murder?

Now... do you want your daughter carrying on like that....answer my question...lets have your daughter walking around with half her tits and ass hanging out....would you say this is advisable???

I would educate my daughter that she is responsible for herself and that she deserves respect in all situaiton. I would tell her to leave ASAP any time she doesn't feel safe in a situation or with someone. I would tell her to avoid being alone with a drunken guy, as studies have shown that a man's alcohol level is the biggest predictor of rape. I would tell her that rape is the rapist's crime, not the victim's fault.

I would also spend time educating my son, telling him women always deserve respect. Out of love and concern for him, I would tell him that he should always seek consent from his sexual partners, especially in situations where alcohol is involved. I would teach him nothing ever justified raping a woman and spend time teaching him about the murky scenarios. (Even though she invited you in, it doesn't mean she is greenlighting you for sex)

February 18, 2011

Ok. How would you teach your son about murder?

I would educate my daughter that she is responsible for herself and that she deserves respect in all situaiton. I would tell her to leave ASAP any time she doesn't feel safe in a situation or with someone. I would tell her to avoid being alone with a drunken guy, as studies have shown that a man's alcohol level is the biggest predictor of rape. I would tell her that rape is the rapist's crime, not the victim's fault.

I would also spend time educating my son, telling him women always deserve respect. Out of love and concern for him, I would tell him that he should always seek consent from his sexual partners, especially in situations where alcohol is involved. I would teach him nothing ever justified raping a woman and spend time teaching him about the murky scenarios. (Even though she invited you in, it doesn't mean she is greenlighting you for sex)

You realize you didnt answer my question

February 18, 2011

Certainly....

But if we are talking about how you can keep yourself safer then you need to worry about what you can do and what you have control over. No sense worrying about what other people should or should not be doing...you have no control over that anyways.

Of course. Unfortunately, we live in a world, where people commit crimes, physically hurt and/or murder others. So, as law abiding citizens, who do not - we as a society do need to protect ourselves.

The police officer who made the statement, in the article you posted, could have and should have communicated that people should exercise caution in a way that doesn't shift blame upon the victim versus the mindset of a rapist.

It was a verbal blip on the officer's part, I certainly do not think he should be hanged over it, but I certainly do not agree with the mentality of "well he/she dressed slutty so they deserved it" and/or "well if he/she didn't dress slutty, people wouldn't rape others".

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Officer: women can avoid being a victim of sexual assault by not dressing slutty

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