Inspiration

[White Flower]

Nice post Seren.

 

Has anyone suggested a 'like' button on LS?

You could always post the cool sunglasses smiley:cool:

[seren]

Seren, your H's A is a mystery to me. You're so delicious in just about every way that I'm sure he just lost his mind for a while. It is apparent in the way he cries with sorrow to you, makes love to you often, and seems to live for you and you alone. I can truly see why, in your case, the OW simply doesn't inspire you at all. Perhaps in this case, the W was the inspiration? I'm sure it was.

 

I love you too WF x As you know H had a rough time with PTSD after Iraq, so I was able to understand the A. OW was being physically abused by her H so two broken souls really. Dammed sad.

[Distant78]

I'd like to know if a man would find the OM inspirational? A BH trying to be like the MM or OM? Reverse the question.. I think a woman might be able to do this, but not a man.

 

The proper term for a BH finding an OM inspirational? Yea I think you know what that means. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a C and ends with a D. Don't know the word for a BW who's turned on by her WH's unfaithfulness.

 

Anyway, I think it would have to take a strong person, someone who has no ego and is quite confident and not insecure, accepting it is what it is. Also, another important aspect, would be total encouragment on behalf of the CS, if that makes sense.

 

Someone who is a pushover to their mate is not a good quality. Shows they don't respect themselves and how others treat them.

 

It takes two, one person can't do all the changing, and hope things will be better. Do you mean change behaviours, or changing WHO they are overall?

 

Yea it takes two but the cheater still must do most of the work if they plan on staying. If things don't get better then who's fault is that? The cheater's fault.

[Distant78]

Bent, knowing your story I have to agree. She seemed trashy in her behavior and how could that be an inspiration?

 

How could anyone who engaged in infidelity be an inspiration?

[White Flower]

It seems sad that he interpreted her behavior as trying to be like you, rather than trying to be desirable to him. It sounds like real, humbling effort on her part to please him--and he's dismissing it as "pathetic"

He isn't dismissing it, he is calling it out. Plus, we're talking about a 40+ year M so he knows change when he sees it.

 

Did I mention in my OP that she never used to put his cereal out each morning, but she does now? Not only that, but she is placing a pitcher of milk next to it on the table, in front of a place setting that was never laid out before, so that he doesn't have to get it himself. She always demanded that they share the workload (as she should!) but now she wants to be sugary sweet.

 

1. It is pathetic on her part to change from strong, equal partner to a submissive one.

 

2. It is pathetic of him to take advantage of it until she changes back to normal.

 

He will then get sick and tired of her again (being who she really is) and he will find another lover. So no, changing who she is or what she does is not a good thing because she'll only go back to the way it was before (and there is nothing wrong with that!) with bad results to follow.

[White Flower]

I love you too WF x As you know H had a rough time with PTSD after Iraq, so I was able to understand the A. OW was being physically abused by her H so two broken souls really. Dammed sad.

It is dammed sad, yet your understanding of it makes me admire you.

 

seren, you ARE an inspiration to me.

[wheelwright]

I beg to differ on the first statement, but wholeheartedly agree on the second; even though the 'fixing' may be impossible for some.

 

 

What if the inspiration has nothing to do with HB? What if it is a new pattern that lasts forever in an effort to keep the sex alive in the M? HB implies that it ends after a short period, and then the sex life returns to normal or maybe even non-existent in some cases.

 

These are really maybes. IME sex has love as a part or doesn't. It can have passion nonetheless, and it can fool you for a while because of that. The head can be very involved in the heart and the libido.

But I'd rule nothing out - and especially if the the WS was looking for love in the M through having an A. I believe that can happen.

 

Further, someone who doesn't have your best interest nor your friend can still have qualities that you admire and hope to have for yourself one day. I can admit that xMM's W was determined in her daily workout routine. I admire that, and am inspired to be more like her in that way. Why would she not be inspired to be open-minded like me, for example, and try to make her H more comfortable in telling her all his secrets? She doesn't have to like the whole person to admire certain qualities in them.

 

I agree with underlined. But I'm not sure it's relevant. In thinking about it the other way round, I in no way wish I were more like xMOM's BS. I am very glad I am different, but also find it interesting to observe the ways we are the same (namely we both like him and both like Buffy the Vampire Slayer ).

 

WW, number 2 is not mutually exclusive with number 1; however, in the Oprah case it is--but with an unually great outcome. I hoped to get answers based on them being related of course, but also of them being separate issues. Further, I don't believe it will have the greatest outcome for xMM and his W because I know the 40+ year history of lack of chemistry.

 

Some people do not see passion as a main component in life decisions. I think this requires further discussion.

 

In the case of the couple on Oprah it really seemed to work. They glowed with happiness and sexuality which made me wonder why the WH cheated on the W at all. She ACTED very much IMHO like an OW! She was sexy and very vixen-like, yet, that is generalizing and of course we OW are not all the same.

 

Their ending wasn't sad, but I do feel it was very unusual.

 

I'm gonna forget Oprah couple, as I think they are in some ways players so I don't trust their story.

 

I never feel that comfortable tbh if acts of passion tread on the footsteps of others. Or at least my truly passionate encounters have not required this particular frission.

[White Flower]

I'd like to know if a man would find the OM inspirational? A BH trying to be like the MM or OM? Reverse the question.. I think a woman might be able to do this, but not a man.

WWIU, you bring up some good points. Not sure with the male ego! They might be more likely to one-up the OM rather than be inspired to be an equal.

 

Anyway, I think it would have to take a strong person, someone who has no ego and is quite confident and not insecure, accepting it is what it is. Also, another important aspect, would be total encouragment on behalf of the CS, if that makes sense.

 

True; yet, I wouldn't say no ego as much as I would say they'd have to be open-minded. My ego isn't non-existent! But it's pretty humble.

 

 

 

It takes two, one person can't do all the changing, and hope things will be better. Do you mean change behaviours, or changing WHO they are overall?

WW, it could mean both, and one could lead into the other. I believe BW is trying to become someone else, but will soon return to her normal self (which is good for her), then xMM will feel stupid for having stayed and admit that it wasn't fair for her to have to change when she complains that she lost herself due to his demands (not that he demanded anything) and the cycle will repeat itself. So so sad.

[fooled once]

Change due to personal growth is excellent; changing your basic nature in order to guilt someone to stay with you is another. xMM anticipates (and always has anytime there was a change after a D-day with other OW) that W will go back to normal once she feels the threat has disappeared.

 

I really feel sorry for him this time because once she feels the threat has lifted completely, I won't be there to take him back. It surely is dismal for him this time.

 

I don't know of any one who has changed their basic nature in order to gilt someone into staying with them. That is sad if someone feels they have to do that.

 

I find it sad that he continues to be someone who he can't even respect. If he is as unhappy as you portray him to be, why does he continue to stay? That is what I have a hard time with. He isn't doing his wife any favors and he isn't being true to himself, so I guess in a way, he is doing exactly what you asked in Question #2 - he is changing himself to stay married or pretending to be someone he isn't. I would have thought with all the counseling he has been involved in, he would finally make a decision for himself and not for others.

 

For your sake WF, I really do hope you move on from him once and for all.

[xxoo]

He isn't dismissing it, he is calling it out. Plus, we're talking about a 40+ year M so he knows change when he sees it.

 

Did I mention in my OP that she never used to put his cereal out each morning, but she does now? Not only that, but she is placing a pitcher of milk next to it on the table, in front of a place setting that was never laid out before, so that he doesn't have to get it himself. She always demanded that they share the workload (as she should!) but now she wants to be sugary sweet.

 

1. It is pathetic on her part to change from strong, equal partner to a submissive one.

 

2. It is pathetic of him to take advantage of it until she changes back to normal.

 

He will then get sick and tired of her again (being who she really is) and he will find another lover. So no, changing who she is or what she does is not a good thing because she'll only go back to the way it was before (and there is nothing wrong with that!) with bad results to follow.

 

Those little loving actions are sweet! Doting isn't necessarily submitting. I dote on my H, and I'm far from submissive!

 

It sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy to me. If he assumes she is faking nice, his heart remains closed, and, with no like return from him, she will eventually stop trying. And then he'll have his verification that he was right.

 

If he assumes that she wants a better relationship and is honestly trying, and he honestly tries in return, there may be different results.

 

People in distant marriages must change their behaviors in order to improve the relationship. A big part of that is learning how to communicate and trust. Some of it is "fake it til you make it". Some of it is extending the olive branch...making the first move toward goodwill....and hoping it is accepted and returned. But there is certainly no hope if the two individuals refuse to change. In fact, there is little hope they will have a healthy relationship with anyone else if they remain the same.

[White Flower]

First of all it's sad for you W/F that your xMM seems to be staying in what is for him a loveless marriage. Although judging by your description of his BW she is making an effort to show him she loves him. This says an awful lot about him and the kind of person he is that he would do this to people (both you and she) who care for him. The fact that he tells you these things about his BW shows how lacking in empathy he is for her, and a terrible lack of discretion of his part.

Yes, it is very sad indeed. I'm told by mutual acquaintances that he looks like he's had a stroke. He never smiles anymore. Tant pis.

 

She does love him, I have no doubt of that, but I also have no doubt that is is unreciprocated. And you're completely right, he is very lacking in discretion which was something I was careful to point out. There is a fine balance when you want to have a deep and intimate connection with someone, and you want to listen to their problems, fears, joys, etc., and also step up and demand that they show respect. It can be complicated to say the least and I'm sure some MM are better at that balance than mine was.

 

I often wonder if she guards me that way I guarded her. I will never know, but I doubt it.

To answer your questions:

 

1. For me the OW was not personally any sort of inspiration to me. We are nothing alike, so me trying to become more like her would have been an awful struggle for me and ultimately my H would have been appalled to be honest. However the situation (ie the my H's affair with her), certainly inspired me to strive for change. Not to reinvent myself but to work out what was important to me and how to have a good and loving marriage with my H. I've discovered it's a process, that we can't just sit back and say "well we're there now, we don't have to do anything else" because this would likely put us back to where we were before. We are enjoying the process and with it our lives.

Excellent!

 

2. This is a somewhat loaded question and the obvious answer is no. A loveless marriage can be resurrected in my view, but it requires input from both parties. Change is essential (otherwise nothing changes) but "changing who they are" is not the answer.

 

I totally agree, but not about the loaded part, at least I tried to define it. If I didn't, you certainly did!

 

BTW this question mainly seems to be directed at people who are BW/BH so it will be interesting to see if OW/OM feel able to give genuine answers if they haven't personally experienced it.

I suppose you're right. Sometimes I forget that I am in both categories!

[White Flower]

Those little loving actions are sweet! Doting isn't necessarily submitting. I dote on my H, and I'm far from submissive!

 

It sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy to me. If he assumes she is faking nice, his heart remains closed, and, with no like return from him, she will eventually stop trying. And then he'll have his verification that he was right.

 

If he assumes that she wants a better relationship and is honestly trying, and he honestly tries in return, there may be different results.

 

People in distant marriages must change their behaviors in order to improve the relationship. A big part of that is learning how to communicate and trust. Some of it is "fake it til you make it". Some of it is extending the olive branch...making the first move toward goodwill....and hoping it is accepted and returned. But there is certainly no hope if the two individuals refuse to change. In fact, there is little hope they will have a healthy relationship with anyone else if they remain the same.

xxoo, those actions ARE loving and sweet. And I'm sure he doesn't deserve them!

 

Self-fulfilling prohecy? Not sure, since they've been together over 40 years. He knows her inside and out; he knows her tendencies and can predict pretty much what she'll go back to. This is a long, drawn out experience for them. Yet, it is the unspoken contract they agree to when they don't give each other--and all that go with it--up.

 

I could totally agree with you if they were both, say, in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s. There would be a certain hope that these changes would remain and that life would and could change for the better. But, they will fall back into their old patterns and he knows it.

[White Flower]

 

I can see how, while self esteem is low that some BS blame themselves and try to up the ante, but the same applies to the WS who paddles like hell to be the man he thinks his BS wants him to be If it isn't true, then it will undoubtedly fail. But the staying in a loveless marriage, sorry but just sounds like BS to me.

Great post but I wanted to quote just this part of it.

 

As I stated earlier, I do believe BW loves MM. I don't believe he loves her. I don't believe that all MM who stay stay out of love; there are so many other reasons to stay. I won't bore everone with the list because I'm sure your imagination will take care of that.

 

But it is BS that he would choose THOSE reasons over love!!!

[White Flower]

Some people do not see passion as a main component in life decisions. I think this requires further discussion.

 

 

WW, you are right in that for many couples this is a non-issue. But with MM, it is the ONLY issue! OK, maybe not the only, but a very, very, very important one!

 

I'm gonna forget Oprah couple, as I think they are in some ways players so I don't trust their story.

 

I never feel that comfortable tbh if acts of passion tread on the footsteps of others. Or at least my truly passionate encounters have not required this particular frission.

I didn't feel duped by the Oprah couple. They appeared very sincere.

 

Can you expound further on your last statement please?

[White Flower]

I don't know of any one who has changed their basic nature in order to gilt someone into staying with them. That is sad if someone feels they have to do that.

I'm sure if you dig hard enough FO you will change your mind about that.

 

I find it sad that he continues to be someone who he can't even respect. If he is as unhappy as you portray him to be, why does he continue to stay? That is what I have a hard time with. He isn't doing his wife any favors and he isn't being true to himself, so I guess in a way, he is doing exactly what you asked in Question #2 - he is changing himself to stay married or pretending to be someone he isn't. I would have thought with all the counseling he has been involved in, he would finally make a decision for himself and not for others.

 

For your sake WF, I really do hope you move on from him once and for all.

Actually, they are doing each other many favors. See, to you and me LOVE is the most important reason to stay. For others, it is the appearance of perfection, it is the financial gain, it is to keep the kids and extended family happy, it is exaggerated guilt for others. Roll it up into one and you have 6 or 7 reasons to stay which mean nothing to you and me.

 

You're probably right, he also did some changing in order to please others.

 

And you don't have to worry about the last statement. It's over.

[NoIDidn't]

Regarding the OP, I don't think the woman on the Oprah show had the OW in mind when she demanded the things that she demanded. The OW didn't inspire her, knowing what her H wanted and wanting to be the woman that provided it might have. It was reclaiming her H and her M. It was associating his memory of those things with her and not with the A that likely motivated it.

 

Can't say that it worked. I wouldn't be interested in doing those things. It would feel too insulting.

 

Regarding the former MM and his W, none of anyone's business. Especially not the OW he was having the affair with. I agree with xxoo. He's not even trying, so he should stop bothering. His W is trying. He is the problem. Why anyone wants him is confusing.

[wheelwright]

I don't know of any one who has changed their basic nature in order to gilt someone into staying with them. That is sad if someone feels they have to do that.

 

I find it sad that he continues to be someone who he can't even respect. If he is as unhappy as you portray him to be, why does he continue to stay? That is what I have a hard time with. He isn't doing his wife any favors and he isn't being true to himself, so I guess in a way, he is doing exactly what you asked in Question #2 - he is changing himself to stay married or pretending to be someone he isn't. I would have thought with all the counseling he has been involved in, he would finally make a decision for himself and not for others.

 

For your sake WF, I really do hope you move on from him once and for all.

 

There is so much I want to say here to you WF.

 

But here are some hard questions I asked myself

 

Is the passionate side of love really important to someone who married a partner they have little passion for (or the other way around) ?

 

I would never have married a partner where there was no chemistry.

 

But your AP did. That speaks about him. It's just not that important to him.

 

For WIW I disagree with him big time. If people managed their own happiness better, we wouldn't have this s***.

[HalfAlive22]

It was the opposite for us..my H last..OW, started dressing and acting like me, how weird is that? In fact she was quite appauled and shocked when she heard some of our crazy stuff..needless to say she's gone, but so am I lol

[White Flower]

Regarding the OP, I don't think the woman on the Oprah show had the OW in mind when she demanded the things that she demanded. The OW didn't inspire her, knowing what her H wanted and wanting to be the woman that provided it might have. It was reclaiming her H and her M. It was associating his memory of those things with her and not with the A that likely motivated it.

 

Can't say that it worked. I wouldn't be interested in doing those things. It would feel too insulting.

 

Regarding the former MM and his W, none of anyone's business. Especially not the OW he was having the affair with. I agree with xxoo. He's not even trying, so he should stop bothering. His W is trying. He is the problem. Why anyone wants him is confusing.

NID the show was from years ago when I used to have time to watch TV! This was pre A, long before my A, yet I remember distinctly that the BW said she wanted her H to take her everywhere he had done it with the W so that all those memories could be hers. It worked for her, that was her way of reclaiming control over her life.

 

Regarding the fMM and his W, he made it my business when he lured me in and confessed his life story to me. Can't change it and it happens every day.

 

You're right, he is only 'trying' by staying. She is trying too hard which will probably backfire, sadly, on her. He did ask me once near the end why I loved him. It was a prophetic statement and I recognized it immediately.

[BB07]

He did ask me once near the end why I loved him. It was a prophetic statement and I recognized it immediately.

 

Sorry the t/j but I wanted to speak to the above. Sometimes I think we love someone because of who we see glimpses of and we believe that the glimpses are the whole person. We hang on because we know that glimpse was the best part of them, but the whole person wasn't that little glimpse of the best of them and sometimes the whole person is just intolerable. They are much to f'd up!

 

Probably makes no sense uh.

[White Flower]

There is so much I want to say here to you WF.

 

But here are some hard questions I asked myself

 

Is the passionate side of love really important to someone who married a partner they have little passion for (or the other way around) ?

 

I would never have married a partner where there was no chemistry.

 

But your AP did. That speaks about him. It's just not that important to him.

 

For WIW I disagree with him big time. If people managed their own happiness better, we wouldn't have this s***.

You've brought up some other points that I hope are relevant to the thread.

 

xMM M quite young. He thought he found the One, because they were all over each other, but mostly out of curiosity, you know, touching, fumbling, but not mastering sex. He'd never had another girl feel him up before. It was a different era, you were supposed to wait for M. How could he know anything about chemistry or if they shared it? But if this one was aggressive and it felt good, she must have been the one for him, right? But as she matured, she thought that behavior was silly and she stopped. She even said certain things were 'sick'. He was dumbfounded.

 

Years later, and after many affairs he had something to measure it against. Yeah, he could still have sex with her, but he was always looking for something more. I'm sure he thought he was looking for better sex but in the end he was looking for intimacy, something he could never have with his W--even stated by his IC recently.

 

He is retired now and sex IS very important to him, still. Better yet, intimacy is too. But he has chosen a life of comfort in the face of fear. He loses big time and the poor thing thinks she has won. When it all settles he will be out there again looking for another. And I'm sure the little pitcher of milk won't be waiting on the table for him in the morning anymore.

[White Flower]

It was the opposite for us..my H last..OW, started dressing and acting like me, how weird is that? In fact she was quite appauled and shocked when she heard some of our crazy stuff..needless to say she's gone, but so am I lol

Ha ha, Halfalive22 I don't know your story so I will have to follow up!

[White Flower]

Sorry the t/j but I wanted to speak to the above. Sometimes I think we love someone because of who we see glimpses of and we believe that the glimpses are the whole person. We hang on because we know that glimpse was the best part of them, but the whole person wasn't that little glimpse of the best of them and sometimes the whole person is just intolerable. They are much to f'd up!

 

Probably makes no sense uh.

No, I gotchya;)

 

He knew he was sh*t and that is why he questioned my love for him. Without telling him, I knew that is when he didn't even know that it was the end for us.

[NoIDidn't]

NID the show was from years ago when I used to have time to watch TV! This was pre A, long before my A, yet I remember distinctly that the BW said she wanted her H to take her everywhere he had done it with the W so that all those memories could be hers. It worked for her, that was her way of reclaiming control over her life.

 

I remember the show and the book they were peddling. I didn't read the book after seeing the reviews that it was pretty disappointing.

 

Regarding the fMM and his W, he made it my business when he lured me in and confessed his life story to me. Can't change it and it happens every day.

 

Oh, I know. It wasn't an indictment of you by any means. It really annoys me when people share sensitive business with people who might be in a position to use it against that person. It does happen everyday. It irks me. I've had my share of times to tell a man to stop divulging his ex's business to me. Its the sign of a person trying to groom and pull you in, IMO.

 

You're right, he is only 'trying' by staying. She is trying too hard which will probably backfire, sadly, on her. He did ask me once near the end why I loved him. It was a prophetic statement and I recognized it immediately.

 

Its so sad to hear this though. I didn't try to be more to my H after his A. I gave him space and worked on living without him one day. I wasn't going to fight for what he didn't want to fight for. I wasn't trying to keep him, I was working on my sanity and emotional health. I didn't want to be without him, but I wasn't going to be a default either.

 

But I recognize that my way won't work for everyone or all personalities.

 

I don't feel sorry for your xMM. I know you aren't asking anyone to, but wanted to state that and why. He reminds me so much of my dad. My dad told me when I was a child, just a little girl before he'd been married even two times, that he never wanted to be alone. He married because he wanted someone to grow old with. He didn't mention love or even liking the woman.

 

He cheated his way through three marriages. And now he's alone. This time sounds like your xMM's W is going to leave him too. She's just trying too hard. And he's STILL not investing anything. I wouldn't blame her for getting tired and kicking him to the curb. I also wouldn't recommend any of his former OW rushing to help him pick up the pieces either.

 

Until your xMM reciprocates his W's efforts he's practically stealing from her, IMO. If he's waiting for her efforts to create feelings in him, he's mistaken. The picture he paints for you seems to say he's not interested in being there. Too bad he won't do what it takes to make that happen.

[desertIslandCactus]

1. Once the OW is out of the picture, the M is really none of her business. She should move on with her own life, instead of focusing on theirs.

 

2. I take issue with the "loveless" assumption. (An OW might wish to believe that to make themselves better, but see #1.) If the M is completely loveless and the children are grown, the WS has no reason to stay. Therefore, something else is keeping him there since his duty has already been fulfilled.

 

I agree, nothing constructive comes from focussing on others' marriages.

 

And there is no way of knowing both sides of what really goes on within a M, anyway.