Inspiration

[White Flower]

as a man, and reversing the roles, I can say the answer is no

 

 

 

 

no, because then they are changing into the other person. they are becoming the other person to please their spouse, and nobody should have to degrade themselves like that.

Thank you neveragain. I appreciate the man's response and like your statements.

[Spark1111]

#1- Yes, I suppose so. Although I did not know the OW (hardly) at DDAY, I only empathized with her: a divorced mother raising a difficult child. I was inspired, inititally, by the time and attention she devoted to my husband and how he responded to it. She was also, according to him, extremely needy, and he needed to feel like a KISA. I had no idea he felt so "less than" at that time.

 

That was eye-opening to me. In retrospect, they were co-workers in close proximity so time and attention were easier to provide one another.

 

Meanwhile, what was Spark up to? Working three jobs, moving kids in and out of college, paying all bills, and letting him be. Translation: Your ego needs a boost, so if you want to turn into a workaholic to "prove" you are worthy of this new, high powered postion, I (we) will support you.

 

More inspiring to me? The time and attention he devoted to her! The talks, texting, emailing, etc. that he devoted to her while Spark was dying on the romantic vine. He was transformed into this romantic, heroic personna I would have killed to have one-tenth of shown in my direction!

 

I had not seen that person in a very long time. He felt he had married above him and nothing he did would be good enough for me (his feelings, never mine!) After a series of professional and physical setbacks, he talked himself out of my love for him. He internalized he was not good enough for me, pre-affair.

 

Question #2: I have been the same woman for the past gazillion years. I told him on DDAY, if that is the woman you love, what are you doing here? No histrionics, sobbing, craziness (That came later when he wanted to reconcile.) I wished them both well.

 

I would not change for love. Because to me, that is not unconditional love. If you need something, tell me and I will accomodate, as long as you reciprocate my needs.

 

But if you do not love Spark the person, I wish you well.

[White Flower]

Thank you Spark for your honest reply. You put yourself out there and I admire your confidence in doing so.

[White Flower]

Hi Everybody,

 

We can go round and round in circles on these questions but I deduce from most of the posts that:

 

1. This question has been more or less answered. A W may or may not choose to emulate the OW consciously or sub-consciously depending on the circumstances and the personality of the W. I personally do not see either option as a bad thing to do since it depends on the situation each W is in. We all agree though that rarely does a W decide to "copy" the OW. The W's pride will not let her admit it. As for the couple on Oprah, I agree with the poster who said "check on them in 5 years". Sounds a bit tricky that W did that and lived happily ever after.

 

2. This question on the other hand is interesting as it explains to some extent why some MMs find themselves having an A. A M can and will start with what both parties perceive to be LOVE. The M can then become loveless to one or both parties. Since there was love at the beginning, should a W change herself into a "copy" of the OW to keep the M going? IMO...No way. I think W should look in the mirror and change what she doesn't like about herself. The only change that is sustainable should be the result of self-examination. As in my case, I went to the gym, went shopping for smaller sized clothes and got my life back.

 

Great post!

WF, I feel from your posts that you have taken into consideration the W's circumstances and commend you for that.

 

Thank you:)

OWoman, you mentioned in another thread that you are sometimes villified for your strong opinions and something about not being from the US. Frankly, it doesn't matter where you're from. Your opinions make a lot of sense because you articulate them from your stand point convincingly.

I agree. I think because Owoman is so strong in her argument both logically and convincingly it is intimidating to those with lesser arguments, or have lesser punch to their argument.

 

Joey, you being an MM in an A is not "evil" but will eventually cause a lot of pain to everybody involved. Yes, the OW may not be forgiven if she knew you were M from the get go. But that doesn't change the fact that she will feel immense pain as a result. Your BS, God help her, may have issues but surely, surely, she deserves to know that things are really bad in your view. As a fOW, I will tell you this: We have enough stuff to feel guilty and ashamed about. The BS finding out and blaming us is not something we need on top of that. So whatever you do, just make up your mind and do not add insult to injury for either woman. The "evil" stems from the pain you cause because of the length of time the deceit has gone on for and not that you as a person are "evil".

 

I hope i am making some sense.

I think we are blending threads now:D

[wheelwright]

You've brought up some other points that I hope are relevant to the thread.

 

xMM M quite young. He thought he found the One, because they were all over each other, but mostly out of curiosity, you know, touching, fumbling, but not mastering sex.

 

Years later, and after many affairs he had something to measure it against.

 

He is retired now and sex IS very important to him, still. Better yet, intimacy is too. But he has chosen a life of comfort in the face of fear.

 

I have thought about this stuff too, because according to xMOM there isn't (and never has been) any passion in his M. And this man loves sex and intimacy.

 

But clearly there are more important values for him. I think fear played a part, but if I am honest I just think he valued what he had with his W more than the off the scale chemistry he and I experienced.

 

Now I couldn't have behaved like that, because I valued it more than he.

 

Love and passion are a state of freedom and abandon. Some people prefer safety. We can call such people cowards, but really they are making a life choice based on the person they know themself to be.

 

And about the Oprah couple - somovinon answered for me in part.

 

But to add - sex done off the back of a passion one partner experienced elsewhere is just sex. It isn't true passion, which requires an unlimited frenzy of mutual desire.

 

Isn't that the ultimate end? We two are not enough alone. I need something else to get me off?

 

Or perhaps I am old-fashioned.

 

Edit: The passion I am talking about is not the passion for sex itself but the passion for the other person. And I think in this distinction we may find a reason for much of the confusion felt in M and As - especially if we mistake one for the other. Or do not have the wherewithal to make the distinction. And it cuts both ways - the mistake may be either the M or the A.

Edited February 22, 2011 by wheelwright
adding stuff as usual

[fooled once]

WF??? What do you mean about the bolded? Change my mind that I don't know anyone who has changed their basic behavior to guilt someone into staying with them. My H's ex wife didn't do that to him when they divorced; I didn't do that to my ex. And while he told me he would change I knew him well enough that he was incapable of changing. The friends I have who did have affairs, and a couple who are together today with their former affair partners, didn't change who they are. Maye I am just not understanding what you are saying.

 

I'm sure if you dig hard enough FO you will change your mind about that.

 

Actually, they are doing each other many favors. See, to you and me LOVE is the most important reason to stay. For others, it is the appearance of perfection, it is the financial gain, it is to keep the kids and extended family happy, it is exaggerated guilt for others. Roll it up into one and you have 6 or 7 reasons to stay which mean nothing to you and me.

 

You're probably right, he also did some changing in order to please others.

 

And you don't have to worry about the last statement. It's over.

 

You are right, for me LOVE is the most important reason to be married and to stay married. I never understood marrying for convenience or 'just because'. I don't get why people who are unhappy stay married. I guess because I didn't, it is hard for me to see why others do. I am/was Catholic, I had a small child and at the time of me choosing divorce, I was unemployed I just KNEW there was no way I could continue living the way I had been. There was no way no man would EVER raise fists to me again and I knew there was NO WAY I would ever let my son see that kind of violence again. Life is too flipping short to stay unhappy or to stay miserable.

 

WF, I do hope you find the happiness you deserve and I hope you and the your kids are doing great!!

[fooled once]

Sorry to reply again, but just getting through this thread and wanted to comment on something WW said:

 

Is the passionate side of love really important to someone who married a partner they have little passion for (or the other way around) ?

 

I would never have married a partner where there was no chemistry.

 

Great question wheel. Like you, I could never marry someone who I had no chemistry for.

[BeachBetty]

Sorry to reply again, but just getting through this thread and wanted to comment on something WW said:

 

 

 

Great question wheel. Like you, I could never marry someone who I had no chemistry for.

 

People do it all the time.

 

When they are young because it is the "next step" and when they are older because they are afraid of the ticking clock and are willing to settle.

 

Not everyone shares the same values of love and passion. Some see security and stability as equal values.

 

Not me, but I get it.

[Spark1111]

Sorry to reply again, but just getting through this thread and wanted to comment on something WW said:

 

 

 

Great question wheel. Like you, I could never marry someone who I had no chemistry for.

 

Me neither!

 

There was NEVER a time my H walked into a room that I did not have that butterfly feeling in my stomach. Even I did not quite understand it, other than I knew I loved him because of it.

 

He had to continually talk himself out of that feeling to have his affair. He had to convince himself and his OW, constantly, that it was gone and could not be reclaimed. HE was the one who needed to reclaim that feeling, the one I had never lost for him, when we reconciled.

 

He had to LIE to his OW that we never had sex. He was the one, who conveniently forgot, that we were intimate twice a week.

 

passion is a must in a healthy relationship.

[xxoo]

Look like a Nordies gal on a Target budget:).

 

By living this way I have inspired my daughter to give up the former and live by the latter.

 

Believe me, I make an art of frugal and resourceful! lol!

 

Still, there were a few years with NO budget for clothes, Target or otherwise. I'm sure I'm not the only one Many families find the early parenting years to be lean in resources, so I think it is a fair issue to consider when judging a new mom for looking "frumpy".

 

Thankfully, my H did not go out and find a woman with better clothes!

And, thankfully, those days are now in the past

[findingnemo]

Great post!

 

Thank you:)

 

I agree. I think because Owoman is so strong in her argument both logically and convincingly it is intimidating to those with lesser arguments, or have lesser punch to their argument.

 

 

I think we are blending threads now

 

Ooops, did I get that from another thread??? Sorry!!! I got a bit irritated at the bickering on the other thread and it spilled over, I guess.

[White Flower]

Ooops, did I get that from another thread??? Sorry!!! I got a bit irritated at the bickering on the other thread and it spilled over, I guess.

 

Not a problem FN, I was only teasing;)

[OWoman]

You are assuming the woman was in the position to buy these clothes in the first place.

 

Also, that she is the same size. In my own case, I was thinner after kids than before, and many of my clothes hung off me.

 

None of the clothes I buy are expensive. You can get good quality clothing at factory shops or charity shops at considerably less than you pay for poorer quality clothing at chain stores.

 

Or, you can make your own. Buying fabric at the market costs very little, and it does not take long to run up a few simple but elegant pieces.

 

Looking good does not have to cost money.

 

That's wonderful, WF

 

But are you saying, as OWoman is, that it is a woman's own fault if she can not pull off the same?

 

I didn't say it was her FAULT, I said it was her CHOICE. That is not the same thing.

[Untouchable_Fire]

So, two questions.

1. Can an OW be an isnpiration for a W? (regardless of how much you hate OW)

2. Should a person change who they are in order to keep a loveless M together?

 

1. Not really. The word inspiration is a bad fit here. What you are really trying to convey is the idea that by being forced to compete with another woman for a husbands affection can lead to positive changes. However, an OW is not required for those changes to occur and neither is competition.

2. A person should put in effort, changing yourself should not be done. Example, planning a romantic evening is effort, acting passive when you are not that kind of person is changing.

[NoIDidn't]

I think because Owoman is so strong in her argument both logically and convincingly it is intimidating to those with lesser arguments, or have lesser punch to their argument.

 

How'd this sneak in here?

[fooled once]

People do it all the time.

 

When they are young because it is the "next step" and when they are older because they are afraid of the ticking clock and are willing to settle.

 

Not everyone shares the same values of love and passion. Some see security and stability as equal values.

 

Not me, but I get it.

 

Never said people don't. I said *I* could never.

 

Me neither!

 

There was NEVER a time my H walked into a room that I did not have that butterfly feeling in my stomach. Even I did not quite understand it, other than I knew I loved him because of it.

 

He had to continually talk himself out of that feeling to have his affair. He had to convince himself and his OW, constantly, that it was gone and could not be reclaimed. HE was the one who needed to reclaim that feeling, the one I had never lost for him, when we reconciled.

 

He had to LIE to his OW that we never had sex. He was the one, who conveniently forgot, that we were intimate twice a week.

 

passion is a must in a healthy relationship.

 

Spark, I feel that way about my current H He gives me butterflies - 13 years later. It is his eyes - they are so beautiful with long lashes and I just melt when he gives me a certain look

 

I married very young the first time - 22 years old. BUT I married for love that time too. Many things changed that love for him; and even though I promised to love him til death, in front of God, the Priest and our families, I ended that marriage because I refused to live unhappily.

 

 

None of the clothes I buy are expensive. You can get good quality clothing at factory shops or charity shops at considerably less than you pay for poorer quality clothing at chain stores.

 

Or, you can make your own. Buying fabric at the market costs very little, and it does not take long to run up a few simple but elegant pieces.

 

Looking good does not have to cost money.

 

I didn't say it was her FAULT, I said it was her CHOICE. That is not the same thing.

 

For some, the choice is feeding the family or buying a cheap dress. For some, bills and food come way before clothes - no matter where they are bought. Some families don't have even $10 to spare. Glad that you were able to afford clothes or knew how to sew. I know of many who don't have the ability or even the few dollars for fabric. Seriously. So for them, it isn't a choice. A nice outfit isn't a necessity, such as electricity, water, food, gas, etc. As someone who was dirt poor - poor to the point of I could only afford to feed my son and not me (on a regular basis), I didn't have any spare money. I didn't have any friends who were my size. Any money I did get as a gift (birthday or Christmas) went to daycare, food, clothes for my kid, etc.

 

Clothes don't make the person. Its sad that so much in the world is wrapped up in what someone looks like on the outside vs who the person on the inside is.

[alexandria35]

Never said people don't. I said *I* could never.

 

 

 

Spark, I feel that way about my current H He gives me butterflies - 13 years later. It is his eyes - they are so beautiful with long lashes and I just melt when he gives me a certain look

 

I married very young the first time - 22 years old. BUT I married for love that time too. Many things changed that love for him; and even though I promised to love him til death, in front of God, the Priest and our families, I ended that marriage because I refused to live unhappily.

 

 

 

 

For some, the choice is feeding the family or buying a cheap dress. For some, bills and food come way before clothes - no matter where they are bought. Some families don't have even $10 to spare. Glad that you were able to afford clothes or knew how to sew. I know of many who don't have the ability or even the few dollars for fabric. Seriously. So for them, it isn't a choice. A nice outfit isn't a necessity, such as electricity, water, food, gas, etc. As someone who was dirt poor - poor to the point of I could only afford to feed my son and not me (on a regular basis), I didn't have any spare money. I didn't have any friends who were my size. Any money I did get as a gift (birthday or Christmas) went to daycare, food, clothes for my kid, etc.

 

Clothes don't make the person. Its sad that so much in the world is wrapped up in what someone looks like on the outside vs who the person on the inside is.

 

The bolded is so true FO. I was also very poor when raising my children. I was able to keep a roof over our heads and food in our bellies, but that was about it. Spending any money on myself was an absolute last priority. I mean I couldn't even by the cheap clothes, and a lot of the clothes that I did have were cast offs from someone else. My boys heard the word "no" more times than I care to remember. They didn't get to join teams or take part in extracurricular activities. I can't remember how many times I had to disappoint them and then go shut myself in my bedroom and cry because I couldn't give my kids a better life. And they were such great kids! They never cried or pouted or took an attitude with me about not being able to do something that they really really wanted to do. Man I'm getting choked up just thinking about those days. On the very rare occasions that I did have some extra money to spare I would immediately spend it on my kids. I loved them so much and the rare times I was able to treat them to something special made me feel way better than new clothes ever would have.

[xxoo]

I hear you, FO and Alexandria.

 

But OWoman is correct. Technically, it is a choice. You could also choose fabric over dinner, or a sewing machine over emergency savings.

 

Sometimes wearing what you have, even if it is a bit frumpy is a responsible choice. A loving choice. A good choice

[NoIDidn't]

I hear you, FO and Alexandria.

 

But OWoman is correct. Technically, it is a choice. You could also choose fabric over dinner, or a sewing machine over emergency savings.

 

Sometimes wearing what you have, even if it is a bit frumpy is a responsible choice. A loving choice. A good choice

 

So true. I know so many that would rather outfit themselves in finery than actually see to the welfare of their children. I'd wear rags to make sure my kids were well-nourished.

 

And if my H was as much of a rube to cheat based on how nicely I dressed when he has a part in it as well, he could let the door hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.

[pureinheart]

Xxoo, I wouldn't say it was a matter of fault; rather, a matter of being determined to make the most if what you've got. If you need to lose weight push the babies in a stroller for a mile each day.

 

I happen to be a full-figured woman. Someone like Owoman or MM's W might be dumbfounded to understand what he saw in me, but the fact is I know how to accentuate what I have and how to make it look good. Coordinate your colors, know how to hide your flaws, and accentuate your strengths. Look like a Nordies gal on a Target budget:).

 

By living this way I have inspired my daughter to give up the former and live by the latter.

 

This is extremely well said. Be the best you can be and work with what you have today...make tomorrow better.

 

I am finding your post WF very encouraging because I am choosing to be frumpy right now and it's not me, and to combat this am working everyday to become better, to care about myself again. What ever it is that needs to change...make it happen. Thank you:)

 

Oh and thrift stores are an excellent way to look like a million and spend only a couple of bucks, so there are no excuses for me:)

Edited February 23, 2011 by pureinheart

[seren]

This is extremely well said. Be the best you can be and work with what you have today...make tomorrow better.

 

I am finding your post WF very encouraging because I am choosing to be frumpy right now and it's not me, and to combat this am working everyday to become better, to care about myself again. What ever it is that needs to change...make it happen. Thank you:)

 

Oh and thrift stores are an excellent way to look like a million and spend only a couple of bucks, so there are no excuses for me:)

 

I so relate to this, in the early days and for a while later, we had nothing, what we ate relied on what coupons I had cut out and we had some very strange combinations of food. I made sure my son never went without and neither did H or the dog. Which shoes how far down the food chain I placed myself. I had two pairs of shows, one of which had cardboard in the sole. Dire times, but I took whatever work I could and finally went to Uni for my degrees, all but killed me trying to do it all.

 

I can understand how someone can feel so downhearted they cannot even find the energy to look good, feeling you are not good enough sort of becomes a cycle of self fulfilling prophecy, I feel like crap, I look like crap, I am crap sort of scenario.

I have a wardrobe(s) full of lovely clothes and shoes, but recognise that now I am home working I am going more for the comfortable over the dressy. Hmm, have my jeans and jumper ready for ironing, may now go back upstairs and break out the dress option. I also agree that it is what is on the inside that matters, unfortunately it is not that, that people see and judge.

Edited February 23, 2011 by seren
typo

[White Flower]

WF??? What do you mean about the bolded? Change my mind that I don't know anyone who has changed their basic behavior to guilt someone into staying with them. My H's ex wife didn't do that to him when they divorced; I didn't do that to my ex. And while he told me he would change I knew him well enough that he was incapable of changing. The friends I have who did have affairs, and a couple who are together today with their former affair partners, didn't change who they are. Maye I am just not understanding what you are saying.

 

So you gave three examples of it not happening, but there are many, many other examples here on this site alone and IRL that it has happened. I'm sorry, I just think it's a weak argument. And even if you don't know any case of it happening, doesn't mean it never has.

 

You are right, for me LOVE is the most important reason to be married and to stay married. I never understood marrying for convenience or 'just because'. I don't get why people who are unhappy stay married. I guess because I didn't, it is hard for me to see why others do. I am/was Catholic, I had a small child and at the time of me choosing divorce, I was unemployed I just KNEW there was no way I could continue living the way I had been. There was no way no man would EVER raise fists to me again and I knew there was NO WAY I would ever let my son see that kind of violence again. Life is too flipping short to stay unhappy or to stay miserable.

 

WF, I do hope you find the happiness you deserve and I hope you and the your kids are doing great!!

I agree with love being the most important reason to be and stay M.

 

Thank you FO. We are facing other challenges, serious ones, but we'll get through.

[White Flower]

I didn't say it was her FAULT, I said it was her CHOICE. That is not the same thing.

I agree, it isn't the same thing.

[White Flower]

1. Not really. The word inspiration is a bad fit here. What you are really trying to convey is the idea that by being forced to compete with another woman for a husbands affection can lead to positive changes. However, an OW is not required for those changes to occur and neither is competition.

2. A person should put in effort, changing yourself should not be done. Example, planning a romantic evening is effort, acting passive when you are not that kind of person is changing.

I chose the word carefully. And I am not trying to convey any ideas. I asked a question and I am looking for everyone's input.

 

I don't agree that anyone is 'forced to compete'; competiton is either part of your personality or it's not. I wouldn't compete for any man.

 

MM chased me for a year and a half before I succumbed to an A with him. I have broken up with him many times, each time he reeled me back in. This last breakup was 8 weeks ago and I have not called, emailed, or showed up to any place I know he will be. I do not compete. He either wants me or he doesn't.

 

You're right that changes can occur on their own, yet a story is a story, and and in this story the BW made many changes in order to bring to her M what the OW brought to her R with a MM.

 

I like your response to 2.

[White Flower]

I don't believe there is a woman on this thread who hasn't sacrificed for their children. Most of our children are grown and grew up healthy and loved.

 

Let's get back on the subject of inspiration please.

 

Sorry I was away for about 24 hours. I had a busy day at work, then went out with friends last night. I just don't have time to sit in front of a computer all day, even though I would like to.

 

Life is too short, and it was meant to be lived!