is the MM necessarily evil?

[Citizen Erased]

They're not evil. But no, in my opinion, they're not good people. At least not at that point in their life. They're being selfish and that's not a trait I associate with being a good person.

 

But then, who is really that selfless these days? I suppose cheaters are just a higher degree of selfish. Of not being good.

[Citizen Erased]

And yet it works for so many.

You seriously think it works? For some, yes. Usually the ones that don't get caught and their OW/OM don't care if their guy stays married or not. But that's rare.

 

These things more often than not come to an end. In hurtful was for the person cheating/being cheated on/being cheated with.

[BB07]

And yet it works for so many.

 

Does it...........really???

[kis]

Does it...........really???

 

 

realisticly speaking. You really only hear about the ones that dont work. I know its not a popular ideal. But think about it.

[BB07]

realisticly speaking. You really only hear about the ones that dont work. I know its not a popular ideal. But think about it.

 

Reference where you get your stats from.

[desertIslandCactus]

realisticly speaking. You really only hear about the ones that dont work. I know its not a popular ideal. But think about it.

 

You can mention other things that are wrong .. .. such as thievery, invasion, squatting, escaping a responsibility .. If they're not found out - then I guess it works for them?

 

Things are not hidden just because they are done in darkness, or covered over.

[findingnemo]

"Evil" is the wrong word to use to describe MMs. Most of them are delusional, cowardly and/or selfish. Many of them delude themselves into staying in bad Ms, others delude themselves into thinking they can have some "fun" and never get caught. Many are cowards and are miserable in their Ms but fear to lose "everything" whatever that may be. Some are just selfish and do not love anybody including themselves.

 

To me "evil" is a serial killer, a rapist, a sadist, a torturer, a murderer. But the reason many posters seem to villify the MM is because of the immense pain the MM causes and how he seems to think that just because he has decided to end the A, the OW and BS should accept it and move on. The pain is terrible and in that sense, an MM in an A who doesn't leave his M, has done an evil thing to OW and BW.

[woinlove]

In reading the threads here it seems to me that the MM is often vilified. (No surprise that.) And I am willing to admit that oftentimes he deserves all the rancor directed his way. The general consensus seems to be, and correct me please if I am wrong, that any decent MM would either (i) not get involved in an EMR, or (ii) if he felt so strongly about the OW that he couldn't help himself, then he would come clean to his W immediately. That is, there seems to be no justification for MMs to enter affairs.

 

Is there some middle ground in this? If an MM is having an A does that automatically mean he is a bad person, a scumbag, etc.? Can a nice, decent married guy have an EMR, or is that a fundamental contradiction?

 

Examples are discussed on LS of former WS who are almost certainly "nice, decent" guys (or gals) - as you put it. They seem to follow a pattern. They treated people well before the A, they went through some low point and had an A, they come to realize that they behaved badly, show remorse and start treating others well again. They might have reconciled with the BS or ended the marriage.

 

I think most people can understand such examples. Good people can make bad choices, even bad choices over an extended period of time. But, I get the impression that those same people would not want to be called "nice MM", in the sense of "nice WS" or "nice cheaters", because they themselves don't think their behavior was nice. I get the impression they would want to be considered nice people who made a bad choice and don't intend to do it again.

 

Are there any MM/WS here who think that you are being "nice" while continuing a secret A or planning/hoping to have another? If so, let's hear the arguments.

[Sharon1961]

I think a lot of times MM want to be considered nice guys. They make excuses as to why they have an A. They don't leave the M. They keep it secret. And if discovered, they blame the AP and turn away from them. Some even put themselves down for it in what appears to be an attempt to show that they're really nice underneath it all.

 

And somehow all these things add up to them wanting to be perceived as nice.

 

If they wanted to be a real nice guy they would probably never have the A to begin with really. They would have worked out the issues in the M or their life instead.

 

Are all MM in A's doing something hurtful? Yes.Are all MM in A's doing something behind people's backs? Yes. Otherwise they wouldn't be affairs.

 

We all go through rough patches and we all hurt the ones we love at some point or another. But I think perhaps you asking if all MM in As are evil is a way for you to feel better about yourself. Maybe? I think you know that evil is a bit extreme which is why you chose the word. To mitigate the issue.

[Spark1111]

Evil? nah.....

 

Just breathtakinly selfish, somewhat immature and definitely a coward.

 

To conduct a secret affair, sometimes for years, is one of the most disrepectful and manipulative actions a person could undertake towards your SO AND your AP, IMO.

 

So, on that basis alone, and it is glaringly obvious to any AP, why do you want someone who so disrespects their spouse?

 

Ugh!

[woinlove]

I think a lot of times MM want to be considered nice guys. They make excuses as to why they have an A. They don't leave the M. They keep it secret. And if discovered, they blame the AP and turn away from them. Some even put themselves down for it in what appears to be an attempt to show that they're really nice underneath it all.

 

And somehow all these things add up to them wanting to be perceived as nice.

 

If they wanted to be a real nice guy they would probably never have the A to begin with really. They would have worked out the issues in the M or their life instead.

 

Are all MM in A's doing something hurtful? Yes.Are all MM in A's doing something behind people's backs? Yes. Otherwise they wouldn't be affairs.

 

We all go through rough patches and we all hurt the ones we love at some point or another. But I think perhaps you asking if all MM in As are evil is a way for you to feel better about yourself. Maybe? I think you know that evil is a bit extreme which is why you chose the word. To mitigate the issue.

 

I didn't respond to the evil in the title because it seemed a bit bizarre - I thought it was meant to capture attention. But perhaps you are right, Sharon. Maybe it signals a need to feel better. Could it be hoping that "not evil" implies "nice"?

[Sharon1961]

I didn't respond to the evil in the title because it seemed a bit bizarre - I thought it was meant to capture attention. But perhaps you are right, Sharon. Maybe it signals a need to feel better. Could it be hoping that "not evil" implies "nice"?

 

woinlove - I think so. This way, if someone says, yes, you're evil he can think - well, that's a bit extreme. They're reacting out of their own issues. And if people say, no, not evil then that's all he needs to hear.

 

It seems that he very much wants to be a decent guy but eat his cake, too. Unfortunately, it's not really possible in this situation.

[OWoman]

Can a nice, decent married guy have an EMR

 

yes. All of my fMMs were nice, decent MMs. Otherwise I would not have touched them with a bargepole.

 

There is no contradiction. And, luckily, there are some people whose intelligence is finely honed enough to recognise this - thus, there are books with titles like "when good people have As".

[joey66]

Okay, so maybe "evil" is not the right word. I don't mean evil in the sense of serial killer. I just mean that I think it's possible for good people to have As. Having an A doesn't necessarily make you bad.

 

I realize that others have different opinions. And that's fine. But I would suggest that, on average at least, MMs are no more bad/cowardly/selfish/etc. than the OWs with whom they are involved.

[woinlove]

Perhaps the best known of the "good people have affairs" books is by Kirshenbaum, who is quite controversial for, among other things, advocating that MM/MW who have an A and want to stay married, continue to deceive their spouses. While Kirshenbaum seems to think that honesty in intimate relationships is not that important, many people think otherwise. To me, hiding an important part of oneself limits the intimacy one can have.

 

But, to get back to the topic at hand, here is one quote from that author:

 

Ms Kirshenbaum, clinical director of the Chestnut Hill Institute, a psychotherapy and research centre in Boston, Massachusetts, says her book is not aimed at 'creeps' who think they can cheat with impunity, but at decent people who know they have made a mistake.

"These people are suffering terribly and need to be relieved of their sense of guilt and shame because those emotions are paralysing," she said.

 

So, she is saying that she is speaking about people who do not think they were being "nice" during their A and thinks they need to move beyond paralysing guilt and shame. I think few people would disagree with this, even if they disagree with other parts of her book.

[Sharon1961]

Okay, so maybe "evil" is not the right word. I don't mean evil in the sense of serial killer. I just mean that I think it's possible for good people to have As. Having an A doesn't necessarily make you bad.

 

I realize that others have different opinions. And that's fine. But I would suggest that, on average at least, MMs are no more bad/cowardly/selfish/etc. than the OWs with whom they are involved.

 

Does that make you feel better?

 

Seriously, Joey, we are all responsible for our own actions. Just admit that what you are thinking of doing is a destructive act. For whatever reasons and no matter how that classifies you and whomever the destruction is against. Don't go trying to defend your actions by casting blame on others.

 

If you have an affair it is not because that woman is pushy and confident. It is not because the OW is typically just as bad as the MM. Your actions are YOUR responsibility. And however those actions make YOU see yourself is all that matters.

 

Our relationships are merely reflections of how we feel about ourselves. How does the idea of having an affair make you feel about yourself?

 

The rest is just smoke and mirrors. Ya know?

[woinlove]

Okay, so maybe "evil" is not the right word. I don't mean evil in the sense of serial killer. I just mean that I think it's possible for good people to have As. Having an A doesn't necessarily make you bad.

 

I realize that others have different opinions. And that's fine. But I would suggest that, on average at least, MMs are no more bad/cowardly/selfish/etc. than the OWs with whom they are involved.

 

Is that really the question you are after? Everyone (or almost everyone?) thinks good people can do bad things. So there wouldn't be much to discuss. I thought you were asking something more subtle than that.

 

As to comparing MMs with OWs, if the OW does not know the W and does not encounter her, there is no need for the OW to participate directly in any deception. Also they never made any promises or commitment to the W. If the OW is a "friend" of the W, then perhaps there is more similarity, particularly if she is a close friend whose life is closely connected with the W's.

 

Joey, don't you see the difference in betrayal and deception between a MM and an OW in general?

Edited February 21, 2011 by woinlove

[bentnotbroken]

Okay, so maybe "evil" is not the right word. I don't mean evil in the sense of serial killer. I just mean that I think it's possible for good people to have As. Having an A doesn't necessarily make you bad.

 

I realize that others have different opinions. And that's fine. But I would suggest that, on average at least, MMs are no more bad/cowardly/selfish/etc. than the OWs with whom they are involved.

 

 

I agree with you. They are no more any of those adjectives than the people they are involved with.

[Sharon1961]

Joey, don't you see the difference in betrayal and deception between a MM and an OW in general?

 

I am beginning to think that Joey is in need of validation. Maybe that is why he is thinking of getting involved with this other woman. And maybe that is why he is here. To find someone who can condone not really what he is doing but him as a person.

 

All of that can only really be found within.

 

But then maybe I am reading too much into it.

[Owl]

Joey...think about it. What someone "thinks" MM is depends on where they're at in things.

 

Honest questions...have you considered if OW/MOW considers you "evil"...or selfish/whatever?

 

If your wife were fully aware of your actions...what adjectives would she use to describe you, what adverbs would she use to describe your actions?

 

Seriously, I'm interested in hearing if you've considered this.

[joey66]

Wow. It seems I really stepped in it this time. Let me try to give honest answers.

 

sharon - I completely agree that we are each of us responsible for our own actions. In fact, this is my point. The MM doesn't somehow cast a spell on the (potential) OW. She is just as culpable as he is. Most of the time anyway.

 

I absolutely deny the charge that I am trying to cast blame on others.

 

In general, and not specifically related to LS, I do seek validation. I wrote as much myself earlier in the thread.

 

wo - Assuming that the OW knows beforehand that the MM is in fact M (I recognize that some MM portray themselves as single), then I think both parties are part of the betrayal. I do not buy the argument that, because the OW didn't exchange vows with the BS, then she is not deceiving or betraying.

 

bnb - As much as I often find your viewpoints to be extreme (JMO), I love the fact that you are consistent and to-the-point.

 

owl - Selfish, stupid, dishonest, childish, cowardly, etc. She would not tolerate my actions even for a second. She would call me names that I dare not write here.

 

I feel like I should apologize for ... I don't know ... being what I seem to be. If I have offended, I'm sorry. For my part, I feel just as confused and lost and in pain as many of the other (OW and OM) posters.

[Owl]

You've not offended me by any means.

 

But look at your response to my questions...I don't like the word "evil" in general to describe people. However...look at the words/names you noted would be used to describe you (in your 'position' as MM).

 

Not "evil"...but definitely not a good/nice guy.

 

You may mean well, don't take me wrong. And you may care about others...but your actions in this particular aspect of your life are EXTREMELY self-centered/focused...to the point where it's likely to result in the severe emotional devestation of your wife.

 

Where's the good in that? And who is responsible for the decision to puruse this path?

 

Better to take a renewed look at your choices and actions and perhaps rethink a better plan...yes?

[woinlove]

Joey, I can't imagine that you would have offended anyone. Everyone is just giving their own opinions and/or trying to understand yours. Even as you suggest one can be kind and nice while leading a secret double life, it seems that you don't really believe that.

 

It seems that you are not happy with yourself. By choosing one path - divorce or commit to M - you could act with integrity and try to extend as much respect and kindness as possible to those hurt by your decision if it is divorce. By contrast, the limbo state you appear to be in seems like it must be hell.

 

I don't know your story, but I assume there is some reason you feel you can neither divorce nor fully commit to your M. Can that be explained briefly?

[White Flower]

I hope I wasn't too wishy washy:cool:

Bent? Wishy-washy? Pshhhhh!

[White Flower]

Wow. It seems I really stepped in it this time. Let me try to give honest answers.

 

sharon - I completely agree that we are each of us responsible for our own actions. In fact, this is my point. The MM doesn't somehow cast a spell on the (potential) OW. She is just as culpable as he is. Most of the time anyway.

 

I absolutely deny the charge that I am trying to cast blame on others.

 

In general, and not specifically related to LS, I do seek validation. I wrote as much myself earlier in the thread.

 

wo - Assuming that the OW knows beforehand that the MM is in fact M (I recognize that some MM portray themselves as single), then I think both parties are part of the betrayal. I do not buy the argument that, because the OW didn't exchange vows with the BS, then she is not deceiving or betraying.

 

bnb - As much as I often find your viewpoints to be extreme (JMO), I love the fact that you are consistent and to-the-point.

 

owl - Selfish, stupid, dishonest, childish, cowardly, etc. She would not tolerate my actions even for a second. She would call me names that I dare not write here.

 

I feel like I should apologize for ... I don't know ... being what I seem to be. If I have offended, I'm sorry. For my part, I feel just as confused and lost and in pain as many of the other (OW and OM) posters.

I only agree with the bolded if the OW is friends with the BW. (or OP is friends with the BS). Other than that, an OP is invited into the MM's free time, his heart, and his life. She is not betraying anyone, just you are.

 

Deceiving may be another story because she may aid in a cover up along the way but I don't buy the argument that she is responsible for your betrayal against your W.