woinlove Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 frozensprouts, I do think knowingly being an OW is not showing compassion and kindness to the BS and is encouraging and participating in deception. So, I agree that this is poor behavior, not "nice". One could say I am splitting hairs, as I am setting up a hierarchy of deception and bad behavior. I think the degree of betrayal, disloyalty and deception is greater for the WS. But, I understand your perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet Storm Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is there some middle ground in this? If an MM is having an A does that automatically mean he is a bad person, a scumbag, etc.? I don't think he is necessarily "bad", but he is definitely someone who has issues. I think he is likely to be a conflict avoider, passive-aggressive or just have a weak character. He likely has family of origin issues, he may have a negative attitude toward women in general, like "what she don't know won't hurt her". He often has a sense of entitlement. Is selfish in other areas in his life. Sometimes he indulges in too much of other things, too, like alcohol, drugs, spending. Usually this is not the first wrong thing he has ever done. Whichever way you look at it, he is being sneaky and deceptive. He may not be evil, but he is definitely not someone that would be good relationship material. OW seem to overlook this. Many times it seems OW thinks MM is this great guy. They don't realize that his issues will follow him wherever he ends up. I think some OW feel bad for OM because his wife doesn't show him affection. OW become his source of admiration, affection and positivity. But usually that is because his wife has figured out that MM is a passive agressive conflict avoider with issues, and her attraction to his has worn off...OW just hasn't been with him long enough to see all his negatives yet. So not always evil, but definitely flawed. Selfish. He doesn't really care about what he is doing to OW or Wife. It's about him and his needs. Link to post Share on other sites
BB07 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't think he is necessarily "bad", but he is definitely someone who has issues. I think he is likely to be a conflict avoider, passive-aggressive or just have a weak character. He likely has family of origin issues, he may have a negative attitude toward women in general, like "what she don't know won't hurt her". He often has a sense of entitlement. Is selfish in other areas in his life. Sometimes he indulges in too much of other things, too, like alcohol, drugs, spending. Usually this is not the first wrong thing he has ever done. Whichever way you look at it, he is being sneaky and deceptive. He may not be evil, but he is definitely not someone that would be good relationship material. OW seem to overlook this. Many times it seems OW thinks MM is this great guy. They don't realize that his issues will follow him wherever he ends up. I think some OW feel bad for OM because his wife doesn't show him affection. OW become his source of admiration, affection and positivity. But usually that is because his wife has figured out that MM is a passive agressive conflict avoider with issues, and her attraction to his has worn off...OW just hasn't been with him long enough to see all his negatives yet. So not always evil, but definitely flawed. Selfish. He doesn't really care about what he is doing to OW or Wife. It's about him and his needs. Awesome summation! You hit the nail on the head. Wish I had said it. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I do not believe in such absolutes as ALWAYS good or evil... People are human and make mistakes or bad choices or choices that they thought were good at the time and turned out to be not so good. People are fallible. And they are deserving of forgiveness and a chance to make it right. So I do not see adultery in the same category as evil. Otherwise why would BS's try to reconcile with someone who is "evil?" BB, I skimmed through some of the responses and am always amazed at the severe judgement and name calling concerning AP's...yes it is a sore spot for those who have placed their entire existance in another person. and possibly that aspect should be addressed for healing purposes. Those that are judging severely and those that name call, have you looked in a mirror lately? I'm not saying this to be mean, just fact. No one is above reproach ...period. Link to post Share on other sites
20Seconds Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Woinlove asked a great question earlier. I hope you are able to answer it, OP, as it would be very insightful. If, as you said, you have a need for validation from other women than your W, then what prevents you from divorcing and living a single life that provides you with the opportunity to date freely - even more than one woman at a time, if you want to? Link to post Share on other sites
20Seconds Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 He often has a sense of entitlement. Is selfish in other areas in his life. I once asked MM if he thought his W might want to have an A or an R with someone else and the look of shock on his face was incredible. Having met another person (a woman) who felt it was OK to have affairs but couldn;t accept her H leaving and meeting someone new, it is apparent some people really do think like this. More than anything else it suggests an emotional dependency on the M and the BS which is often denied to their AP. Link to post Share on other sites
BeachBetty Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Having met another person (a woman) who felt it was OK to have affairs but couldn;t accept her H leaving and meeting someone new, it is apparent some people really do think like this. More than anything else it suggests an emotional dependency on the M and the BS which is often denied to their AP. Where do you get that analysis? It's more likely he feels entitled to step out and expects his W to be faithful. Not that he's dependent on the M. Link to post Share on other sites
BB07 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Those that are judging severely and those that name call, have you looked in a mirror lately? I'm not saying this to be mean, just fact. No one is above reproach ...period. Why is this your response to so many posts?? "Telling people they need to look in a mirror and that no one is above reproach." Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just my thoughts, but while I totally agree that "no one is above reproach", that doesn't mean that they shouldn't/can't be reproached for engaging in behaviors that require/deserve it. It just means we all should be open to the probabity that we have areas in our own lives where we also should strive to improve. Link to post Share on other sites
Sharon1961 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just my thoughts, but while I totally agree that "no one is above reproach", that doesn't mean that they shouldn't/can't be reproached for engaging in behaviors that require/deserve it. It just means we all should be open to the probabity that we have areas in our own lives where we also should strive to improve. I think it's kind of odd that anyone would take the responses as people thinking they are above reproach. Anyways, I think if someone has come here to get feedback on issues that are troubling them that, like Owl said, it might be a good idea to soul search. Clearly, the OP is not sure of his own feelings as to his actions or he would not post here. So, while we can give our opinions it is up to him to look within for the real answers. Those are the ones that will chart his course. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't think he is necessarily "bad", but he is definitely someone who has issues. I think he is likely to be a conflict avoider, passive-aggressive or just have a weak character. He likely has family of origin issues, he may have a negative attitude toward women in general, like "what she don't know won't hurt her". He often has a sense of entitlement. Is selfish in other areas in his life. Sometimes he indulges in too much of other things, too, like alcohol, drugs, spending. Usually this is not the first wrong thing he has ever done. Whichever way you look at it, he is being sneaky and deceptive. He may not be evil, but he is definitely not someone that would be good relationship material. OW seem to overlook this. Many times it seems OW thinks MM is this great guy. They don't realize that his issues will follow him wherever he ends up. I think some OW feel bad for OM because his wife doesn't show him affection. OW become his source of admiration, affection and positivity. But usually that is because his wife has figured out that MM is a passive agressive conflict avoider with issues, and her attraction to his has worn off...OW just hasn't been with him long enough to see all his negatives yet. So not always evil, but definitely flawed. Selfish. He doesn't really care about what he is doing to OW or Wife. It's about him and his needs. I think that some MMs definitely do fit this picture, but far from all of them. Several are like my H - he is the opposite of entitled, and is one of the least selfish people I have ever met. Before the A, his entire life had been lived in service to others, he felt that he was on the planet to make things better for others and did not believe he deserved happiness, comfort or love. He was driven by duty, obligation and commitment, and a compulsion to save others - which was led to his initial involvement with his then-W. The "issues" he had to deal with in IC were exactly those - accepting that he also had needs, also had wants and desires, and was as deserving of love and affection as anyone else. He had to learn to become more selfish. Was he flawed? Certainly. Was he evil? The complete opposite - the archetypal Good Guy. Not a single person who knows him IRL (with the possible exception of the xW) "blames" him, or considers him in any negative light, as a result of the A. It's generally regarded as a necessary (if not optimal) solution which brought about the best of all possible outcomes. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Decent people have A's - that is your view. Not mine. Sorry FO, didn't you have an A? Would that make you evil, too? I'm really struggling with this logic... Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I do not believe in such absolutes as ALWAYS good or evil... People are human and make mistakes or bad choices or choices that they thought were good at the time and turned out to be not so good. People are fallible. And they are deserving of forgiveness and a chance to make it right. So I do not see adultery in the same category as evil. Otherwise why would BS's try to reconcile with someone who is "evil?" BB, I skimmed through some of the responses and am always amazed at the severe judgement and name calling concerning AP's...yes it is a sore spot for those who have placed their entire existance in another person. and possibly that aspect should be addressed for healing purposes. Those that are judging severely and those that name call, have you looked in a mirror lately? I'm not saying this to be mean, just fact. No one is above reproach ...period.I don't know BB and have not seen any other posts of hers but this one in particular didn't seem too judgmental IMHO. In fact, I think her last point is the most valid one, yet is a loaded question at the same time. There are many reasons to take back a WS besides him/her being a good person! Money, status, guilt, fear, and so much more besides love and goodness. Forgive me PIH if I am stepping on your toes, I haven't been here in months and don't know the history so please be patient with me. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Decent people have A's - that is your view. Not mine. Um, lots of decent people have As. I think seren said it best: A's happen, they hurt like hell and had he left to be with the OW, I would still think him a good man. I think all A's are bad, but not necessarily undertaken by bad people. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think it is evil when a person mentally and physically abuses others who cannot do anything about the situation. Like a mother abusing her child-that is unforgivable in my book. When a person betrays a promise it will be painful but it is not life itself- not your life- and if that is your whole life, then I am sorry, but how little do you value yourself that you live your life in accordance or depending on another person's wants/desires/decisions? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why is this your response to so many posts?? "Telling people they need to look in a mirror and that no one is above reproach." I would ask you to read the thread, and then if you still ask this question, there is a serious problem and to explain it would be a waste of time. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think it's kind of odd that anyone would take the responses as people thinking they are above reproach. Anyways, I think if someone has come here to get feedback on issues that are troubling them that, like Owl said, it might be a good idea to soul search. Clearly, the OP is not sure of his own feelings as to his actions or he would not post here. So, while we can give our opinions it is up to him to look within for the real answers. Those are the ones that will chart his course. It is a difference of opinion I guess. Constant name calling is in fact one saying that they are above the things in which they call others. I responded to the OP and then saw the usual name calling of AP's...that is what I was speaking to. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I don't know BB and have not seen any other posts of hers but this one in particular didn't seem too judgmental IMHO. In fact, I think her last point is the most valid one, yet is a loaded question at the same time. There are many reasons to take back a WS besides him/her being a good person! Money, status, guilt, fear, and so much more besides love and goodness. Forgive me PIH if I am stepping on your toes, I haven't been here in months and don't know the history so please be patient with me. Hi WF, actually I quoted BeachBetty agreeing with her and adding to it, not speaking to BeachBetty, speaking with her Link to post Share on other sites
BB07 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I would ask you to read the thread, and then if you still ask this question, there is a serious problem and to explain it would be a waste of time. I did read the thread before I asked the question of you and I still don't follow your train of thought as it's something that you repeat many times in many threads. Sorry you feel that to explain it is a waste of your time or it's beneath you to explain your pov. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I did read the thread before I asked the question of you and I still don't follow your train of thought as it's something that you repeat many times in many threads. Sorry you feel that to explain it is a waste of your time or it's beneath you to explain your pov. BB, this is the third or forth time you've taken issue with me specifically, you obviously have a problem with me, so please put me on ignore as it is starting to feel creepy. I would appreciate no further contact. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hi WF, actually I quoted BeachBetty agreeing with her and adding to it, not speaking to BeachBetty, speaking with her Gotchya;). I should've put my glasses on! Link to post Share on other sites
BB07 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 BB, this is the third or forth time you've taken issue with me specifically, you obviously have a problem with me, so please put me on ignore as it is starting to feel creepy. I would appreciate no further contact. Thank you. :lmao: Creepy uh! :lmao: Every interaction I've ever had with you is right here for anyone to read and I kinda doubt anyone else would agree with your assessment, so feel free to put me on ignore. Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hi, I haven't read the responses, but just wanted to post my thoughts on the matter. I think that by the very nature of his actions in that situation, MM is not acting like a good person, because he is being selfish/greedy/deceptive/wanting to have it all/lying to get his way, you name it, to EITHER the OW or wife, and usually, it seems, to both. I think ALMOST all of us would agree that the right thing to do would be to be honest. Either never start cheating in the first place, or, once he has started, to either tell his wife so she has the knowledge, or to tell OW it's worng to cheat on his wife and he can't continue (or to make a decision one way or the other and stick to it). It is rare that an MM does this, at least not for quite awhile, and in the meantime, he is hurting everyone involved, and I also think he is hurting himself. In my former sitch as an OW I gave MM a lot of excuses and I read a lot of excuses on here: his wife treats him badly, doesn't give him sex, he's lonely/sad/etc... but in reality, there is really no good excuse for breaking your own vows and continuing to lie. IMO anyway. Still, it doesn't mean he's ALWAYS a bad person, or that he can't become one again, or that he's not in a bad spot. I can understand why an MM would cheat, just like I can understand why I was an OW. In fact, it's trying to understand why this all happens that I occasionally come back to LS. Last night I was reading a very very very good book of short stories called "Olive Kitteradge" (spelling?) and there is a story in there about a man who is cheating on his wife. You can see the reasons behind it, you can tell it is hurting him, and you don't think "Oh, he's such a bad person," but you still don't excuse what he is doing-- the actions are wrong, period. What I thought was interesting in the story is that even when the MM had decided to go with the OW because he was in love with her, and started taking steps in that direction, he was still waiting for his wife to kick him out! To me cowardice/lack of ability to follow through with what one wants seems to be an inherent trait in many cheaters (and other people... it's not exclusive to cheaters but seems to be there often). I also read on this board about emotionally abusive MMs and I think that yes, some are downright manipulative and evil, and cheating on their wife is just one way they show their true character. But even these MMs... and my exMM was rather like this... are still people and looking back I can see why he was this way and what made him like that and I actually kind of feel sorry for him for never being able to be happy, and instead needing to use people and lie and be selfish. I'm glad I'm not with him anymore, I know I can do better, but my point is that even these MMs with truly "evil" characteristics have their reasons and are in pain... FWIW (I know it doesn't excuse their behavior at ALL). But my main point is that some MMs are not truly "evil" through and through, they are just in a bad spot in their life and don't know how to handle it the right way. They may not realize that cheating will just make everything worse for everyone. I really don't believe anything good comes of cheating that justifies the pain inflicted. JMHO. I hope everyone is doing well. (waving) Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Cheaters evil? Hmmm... In some cases, absolutely. In others - perhaps cowardly and selfish would be a more apt description. Wow, jja, you just said everything I was trying to say in three sentences. Kudos. Never mind my blabber above, ha ha. Link to post Share on other sites
fooled once Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Sorry FO, didn't you have an A? Would that make you evil, too? I'm really struggling with this logic... To answer your question..... I didn't have an affair, as I was not married when I was dating someone who lied to me about his marital status. The guy I thought was separated, because that is what he TOLD ME and he lived in his own apartment, was married. And if you read my post more clearly, I never said "evil". I said that people who have affairs aren't good people. To quote what I wrote: I am not sure if "evil" is correct, but what word would best describe someone who is dishonest, untrustworthy, has no honor, is devious, is a liar, is a cheat, is disrespectful, who is manipulative and who betrays another. I agree with your two consensus. In my view, a good person would NOT get involved in an affair and a good person would not lie and betray another. In MY mind, any MM having an affair is not a good person; or at least his actions show he is not a good person. In MY view, a nice, decent married guy does NOT have an affair. So not sure why you chose to use the word evil when clearly I did not say "people who have affairs are evil". And again, this is JUST MY VIEW. No need to agree or disagree. Just stating my view since the OP asked for opinions Link to post Share on other sites
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