carrie999 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Since so many people commented on a remark made on FG's thread about her xOM moving on, I decided to start this thread because it's an interesting point and like everyone else, I didn't want to take part in threadjacking. I've wondered about this, though. So often, men cheat to satisfy physical needs and fantasies, whereas women often cheat to satisfy something deeper that is missing in the relationship...and in some cases don't realize that until they cheat. This is clearly a very general statement that is an over-simplification of much more complex behaviors and behavioral patterns. I happen to fit into this typical scenario. I love my fiance still, and never considered straying from him before I kissed another man. Even after the kiss happened, I chalked it up to jitters and a drunken mistake between me and (now) my MM. I was shocked by my behavior, and avoided MM for months while mulling over what made me kiss him back, or how it even started. Eventually we ended up talking every day, and it progressed into a real affair. It's at the point now where the end is in sight, regardless of what MM chooses to do. So what does everyone else think? I'm not looking for insight into my situation (it was just an example and explains why I want to explore this topic); I'm interested in hearing others weigh in on whether it's more likely to be over when the woman cheats.
Woggle Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 It sure is for any woman I am married to. I can't speak for others.
Distant78 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Most marriages don't "survive" affairs, regardless of gender. Both cheat for the same reason and one reason only: Selfishness.
neveragain1 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 So what does everyone else think? I'm not looking for insight into my situation (it was just an example and explains why I want to explore this topic); I'm interested in hearing others weigh in on whether it's more likely to be over when the woman cheats. for me, I wouldn't care whether someone cheats for physical reasons, or emotional. Either way, I'm gone. but I have seen too many posts where a woman just can't let go of their OM completely and pines for them so long because of the emotions involved. and no man should put up with that.
Star_Bright Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 From my point of view I could never marry a guy I cheated on. Because I feel like I would be incapable of cheating on someone I truly loved. Cheating involves betrayal, deceit, distrust... all the opposite of love, which is looking out for the other person's best interest. I also think it would be cruel to marry a guy I was actively cheating on and he didn't know it. That is just the epitomy of selfishness and deception, and taking away his chance to find true happiness with someone who is not cheating on him. Now, as far as a marriage being over if the woman cheats? I don't know. For me the same rules as above would apply (I wouldn't want to stay with a guy I cheated on, and honestly I don't really think I would respect him if he wanted to stay with me. But I guess I wouldn't have respected him very much in the first place if I could cheat on him). But I'm sure other factors, like kids, finances, house, a very long history, inter-twined families, etc., come into the picture. I could imagine myself trying to make it work but I feel it would never be the same again. We would both always know I had broken our bond like that. To me it would be a kind of private hell I would want to get out of if I could. And I assume my husband would feel the same way. Take all of this with a grain of salt because I'm not married/engaged. Just my thoughts on the matter and what I honestly feel when I read/hear about these things.
ladydesigner Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Well my marriage did not end when my H cheated and did not end as a result of my revenge affair. I don't think people know what they are going to do until it is staring them in the face. One thing that the A's did do for my M is it opened up communication. There is no more conflict-avoidance on either of our parts. We are working more like a team rather than two people moving in two different directions. What's unfortunate is that it took A's to take place for our M to have this kind of change, which i think could have easily happened in MC. One thing I do not believe is that things are so black and white and maybe that is why I am able to forgive my H and not be affected by his past anymore. I am more disturbed by my own actions. My answer to your question would be no not all marriages end when a woman, or man for that matter, cheats.
Star_Bright Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Well my marriage did not end when my H cheated and did not end as a result of my revenge affair. I don't think people know what they are going to do until it is staring them in the face. One thing that the A's did do for my M is it opened up communication. There is no more conflict-avoidance on either of our parts. We are working more like a team rather than two people moving in two different directions. What's unfortunate is that it took A's to take place for our M to have this kind of change, which i think could have easily happened in MC. One thing I do not believe is that things are so black and white and maybe that is why I am able to forgive my H and not be affected by his past anymore. I am more disturbed by my own actions. My answer to your question would be no not all marriages end when a woman, or man for that matter, cheats. This is very true, especially the bolded, and I'm glad it's working out for you. Thanks for sharing. It seems to me that if the person who cheated (or, both, in this case) is really remorseful and honest and tries hard to focus on the relationship and make it work, then it really can, and some things that were weak about it can even get stronger. I think it seems to be more often the case that the person who cheated stays for the wrong reasons and doesn't do the work it takes to fix the marriage and instead keeps concentrating on the exAP or even continuing to cheat... I even think "once a cheater, always a cheater" is more often true than not, but, not always. But there are definitely cases of the opposite occuring, such as your case, and it's nice to hear about that kind of case. I think people get hung up on stereotypes which are there for a reason I think and are usually true and good to keep in mind, but, forget that there are exceptions to every rule, and not every case is the same. Good for you guys.
Confused4Now Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 This is very true, especially the bolded, and I'm glad it's working out for you. Thanks for sharing. It seems to me that if the person who cheated (or, both, in this case) is really remorseful and honest and tries hard to focus on the relationship and make it work, then it really can, and some things that were weak about it can even get stronger. I think it seems to be more often the case that the person who cheated stays for the wrong reasons and doesn't do the work it takes to fix the marriage and instead keeps concentrating on the exAP or even continuing to cheat... I even think "once a cheater, always a cheater" is more often true than not, but, not always. But there are definitely cases of the opposite occuring, such as your case, and it's nice to hear about that kind of case. I think people get hung up on stereotypes which are there for a reason I think and are usually true and good to keep in mind, but, forget that there are exceptions to every rule, and not every case is the same. Good for you guys. I will totally agree with you on this SB. Good post!!
flowergirl77 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Well my marriage did not end when my H cheated and did not end as a result of my revenge affair. I don't think people know what they are going to do until it is staring them in the face. One thing that the A's did do for my M is it opened up communication. There is no more conflict-avoidance on either of our parts. We are working more like a team rather than two people moving in two different directions. What's unfortunate is that it took A's to take place for our M to have this kind of change, which i think could have easily happened in MC. One thing I do not believe is that things are so black and white and maybe that is why I am able to forgive my H and not be affected by his past anymore. I am more disturbed by my own actions. My answer to your question would be no not all marriages end when a woman, or man for that matter, cheats. Same here, I do not think anything (other than me packing my bags) would have made my H wake up to make the changes he needed to to save our marriage. He refused to look at the state of our M, and avoided doing anything to fix it. He always said M counselling is too expensive, and didn't want to pay for it. Then when my A came out..the first thing he did was find a IC to help him deal with the trauma. In turn this IC made him see his part in it, and how in a sense he drove me away with how he mistreated me. This realization shook him to the core...and now he is so remorseful for how he treated me before, and is determined to save out M. We are similar to your situation, in that I can say we never fight, and rarely argue anymore. We are more of a "team" and I feel for the first time he is on my side, not against me. We are working through this-and our hope is to have a M better than we have had over this last 10 years. Not an excuse...but a catalyst for change.
Hero36 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Here is the simple and harsh truth: If she cheats, that means that she wasn't really attracted to you...She would of cheated on you sooner or later.
Distant78 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I don't think people know what they are going to do until it is staring them in the face. Many folks do, including myself.
Distant78 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Same here, I do not think anything (other than me packing my bags) would have made my H wake up to make the changes he needed to to save our marriage. He refused to look at the state of our M, and avoided doing anything to fix it. He always said M counselling is too expensive, and didn't want to pay for it. Then when my A came out..the first thing he did was find a IC to help him deal with the trauma. In turn this IC made him see his part in it, and how in a sense he drove me away with how he mistreated me. This realization shook him to the core...and now he is so remorseful for how he treated me before, and is determined to save out M. We are similar to your situation, in that I can say we never fight, and rarely argue anymore. We are more of a "team" and I feel for the first time he is on my side, not against me. We are working through this-and our hope is to have a M better than we have had over this last 10 years. Not an excuse...but a catalyst for change. Yea so cheating and making your husband feel guilty while you STILL pine for OM was the best decision you've made. Your affair did more harm than creating teamwork and your continuing disrespecting is doing even more damage to him.
Heather1 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 It'll make or break the R & I think it depends on the reasons behind it. I felt like my H & his family was beating our M over the head w/ a baseball bat & I let someone get too close. If I would have been pursuing it, I think it would have been different. It still confuses me as to what's going on w/ me, but we're working on it & I'd still like for our family to remain intact & so does my H. There was a time @ the beginning of the A I thought it was totally over w/ my H because of the incredible passion. Luckily, I didn't make a move & through the course of time my H is still the better match for me than OM & that extreme passion is gone....reality set in. If I got D it would be because of our M, not OP. If H wanted a D because of this (he knows), then that would be his decision & I would respect that. Luckily he saw I was 3/4 out the door when the A even happened. In a way it brought us closer? I don't know how to explain that.
Author carrie999 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 Same here, I do not think anything (other than me packing my bags) would have made my H wake up to make the changes he needed to to save our marriage. He refused to look at the state of our M, and avoided doing anything to fix it. He always said M counselling is too expensive, and didn't want to pay for it. Then when my A came out..the first thing he did was find a IC to help him deal with the trauma. In turn this IC made him see his part in it, and how in a sense he drove me away with how he mistreated me. This realization shook him to the core...and now he is so remorseful for how he treated me before, and is determined to save out M. We are similar to your situation, in that I can say we never fight, and rarely argue anymore. We are more of a "team" and I feel for the first time he is on my side, not against me. We are working through this-and our hope is to have a M better than we have had over this last 10 years. Not an excuse...but a catalyst for change. FG, your OP instigated this entire discussion...you probably recognize that I started this thread in response to what someone said on your thread. I'm really happy that your H was serious enough about your R to finally come to terms with the problems in your marriage for the first time. If you are now a team, and you're dealing with things honestly and openly, the A was an excellent catalyst for change. I admire you both for working through this. Again, don't let anyone make you feel bad about feeling sad about xOM. If this is what it took to make your marriage happy for a lifetime after ten years of being up in the air, it was all worthwhile :-)
Author carrie999 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 Yea so cheating and making your husband feel guilty while you STILL pine for OM was the best decision you've made. Your affair did more harm than creating teamwork and your continuing disrespecting is doing even more damage to him. Distant78, I notice that you seem to follow threads here very closely and take each one somewhat personally. You are entitled to your opinion about FG and anyone else, but you are extremely negative towards anyone involved in an affair. I hope that you are finding ways to work through the pain an affair caused you, and that you'll eventually find peace.
Woggle Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 He is a bit harsh but I don't cheating as a positive response to anything.
Author carrie999 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 It'll make or break the R & I think it depends on the reasons behind it. I felt like my H & his family was beating our M over the head w/ a baseball bat & I let someone get too close. If I would have been pursuing it, I think it would have been different. It still confuses me as to what's going on w/ me, but we're working on it & I'd still like for our family to remain intact & so does my H. There was a time @ the beginning of the A I thought it was totally over w/ my H because of the incredible passion. Luckily, I didn't make a move & through the course of time my H is still the better match for me than OM & that extreme passion is gone....reality set in. If I got D it would be because of our M, not OP. If H wanted a D because of this (he knows), then that would be his decision & I would respect that. Luckily he saw I was 3/4 out the door when the A even happened. In a way it brought us closer? I don't know how to explain that. Sounds like FG, and makes perfect sense. Part of the complexity that lies in what isn't said in why women's affairs tend to end in divorce is what it means. Women ("typically") cheat because the relationship isn't fulfilling. If the affair makes the husband wake up to the reality of the marriage, rather than sending him running after the OM to beat the living daylights out of him, change may ensue. And that change may well be exactly what the marriage needed to survive. My mom recently told me an interesting story. We have family friends who may as well be family...she and the mom have been close since we were little, I was close with the eldest daughter, my sister & another daughter are best friends, and my brother & the son are close. We've spent every holiday and birthday and celebration together, even as we all grew up and apart. They are family to us, and they were always the perfect family. Turns out, as my mom told me and swore me to secrecy, that when we were young their father cheated. Not a serious relationship, but he strayed. Years later, probably because he was emotionally absent, she (mom's friend) had a long-term affair. She's very private, and probably told only my mom, and even my mom never knew the details. In retrospect, they didn't seem as close when I was a teen as they do now. Whatever happened, their affairs somehow brought them closer together.
woinlove Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Sounds like FG, and makes perfect sense. Part of the complexity that lies in what isn't said in why women's affairs tend to end in divorce is what it means. Women ("typically") cheat because the relationship isn't fulfilling. If the affair makes the husband wake up to the reality of the marriage, rather than sending him running after the OM to beat the living daylights out of him, change may ensue. And that change may well be exactly what the marriage needed to survive. My mom recently told me an interesting story. We have family friends who may as well be family...she and the mom have been close since we were little, I was close with the eldest daughter, my sister & another daughter are best friends, and my brother & the son are close. We've spent every holiday and birthday and celebration together, even as we all grew up and apart. They are family to us, and they were always the perfect family. Turns out, as my mom told me and swore me to secrecy, that when we were young their father cheated. Not a serious relationship, but he strayed. Years later, probably because he was emotionally absent, she (mom's friend) had a long-term affair. She's very private, and probably told only my mom, and even my mom never knew the details. In retrospect, they didn't seem as close when I was a teen as they do now. Whatever happened, their affairs somehow brought them closer together. What message do you take away from the fact that some marriages become better after an affair? I know a couple who were estranged for years who reconciled after one of their children were murdered. That tragic event, which sometimes destroys marriages, actually brought them together again and healed their marriage. What is the lesson there? I would say it is that sometimes extreme pain and grief can bring out something positive in people who still love each other despite the fact that they have not been showing that love. And despite the fact that the event that brought them closer to each other is one they wish with everything they have, had never happened. I think affairs are a less extreme version of this - although I have heard a woman who experienced both the death of a spouse and the discovery of an affair say that the latter was by far more painful to process and took her even longer to get over. The more you trusted, loved and valued your marriage, the more painful it must be. Nevertheless, we see in some cases, that new trust and a new marriage can to be built. The fact that people can change, can forgive, can build something new between them is not justification for lying, deception and betrayal. [i'm not suggesting you think it is justification, Carrie, but some might.] To build something new must take a lot of effort on both parts and, in particular, the one who cheated has to figure out how to become a person who can be trusted, and who doesn't deceive and betray those who trust him/her. If those stories you mention speak to you personally, Carrie, I wonder if that means you are working along that path of change. Not everyone who cheats does change.
Distant78 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Distant78, I notice that you seem to follow threads here very closely and take each one somewhat personally. How do I take it personally? Because you don't agree that people who cheat are bad? You are entitled to your opinion about FG and anyone else, Thanks for giving me permission. but you are extremely negative towards anyone involved in an affair. I hope that you are finding ways to work through the pain an affair caused you, and that you'll eventually find peace. No I'm not negative, just stating the obvious truth. And if you think telling it like it is is unproductive, then what does that say about you calling folks bitter?
Star_Bright Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Sounds like FG, and makes perfect sense. Part of the complexity that lies in what isn't said in why women's affairs tend to end in divorce is what it means. Women ("typically") cheat because the relationship isn't fulfilling. If the affair makes the husband wake up to the reality of the marriage, rather than sending him running after the OM to beat the living daylights out of him, change may ensue. And that change may well be exactly what the marriage needed to survive. I think this is putting all the blame on the non-cheating spouse, which is silly. People cheat on good spouses all the time. I know my exMM's spouse was the epitome of a perfect spouse-- I knew her, everyone said so, and he himself said so. Yet he still cheating. He was the one who needed to change (to not cheat, and do other things that were destructive to the marriage), not her. It also seems that women tend to cheat on the "nice guys" who adore them and do everything for them, and tend not to cheat on jerks who treat them crappy. So to me it may not have anything to do with the non-cheating spouse "needing" to change-- sure, each partner should improve for the better in the relationship, and work on making it stronger, but that doesn't give the cheating spouse a right to cheat or justify it at all. IMO it's the cheater that needs to change. Because there is something wrong with the action of going out and betraying/deceiving your spouse instead of sitting down and telling them the problem and finding a solution (the solution to me would be, "change this because it's super important, or I'm leaving this relationship" -- not "change this or I'll cheat", or even worse, cheating and then looking back and saying, "Well, you were doing this wrong, and so I cheated, and now things between us are going to get so much better now that you see what you were doing wrong." Granted I have never been in the cheating spouse's shoes but I can tell you that if I was married/committed and my partner cheated on me and said I was the one who needed to change, I would be livid. To me that just adds insult to injury. He would be the one with bad communication/conflict resolution skills, and I wouldn't want to be with someone who handles things that way.
Author carrie999 Posted March 1, 2011 Author Posted March 1, 2011 What message do you take away from the fact that some marriages become better after an affair? I know a couple who were estranged for years who reconciled after one of their children were murdered. That tragic event, which sometimes destroys marriages, actually brought them together again and healed their marriage. What is the lesson there? I would say it is that sometimes extreme pain and grief can bring out something positive in people who still love each other despite the fact that they have not been showing that love. And despite the fact that the event that brought them closer to each other is one they wish with everything they have, had never happened. I think affairs are a less extreme version of this - although I have heard a woman who experienced both the death of a spouse and the discovery of an affair say that the latter was by far more painful to process and took her even longer to get over. The more you trusted, loved and valued your marriage, the more painful it must be. Nevertheless, we see in some cases, that new trust and a new marriage can to be built. The fact that people can change, can forgive, can build something new between them is not justification for lying, deception and betrayal. [i'm not suggesting you think it is justification, Carrie, but some might.] To build something new must take a lot of effort on both parts and, in particular, the one who cheated has to figure out how to become a person who can be trusted, and who doesn't deceive and betray those who trust him/her. If those stories you mention speak to you personally, Carrie, I wonder if that means you are working along that path of change. Not everyone who cheats does change. I agree, woinlove, and I don't think an affair is the solution to any marital problem. You are absolutely right that it's not a justification. It can simply be a means to an end. It's not an approach I would suggest or condone because it leads to heartache and more often than not, destruction of lives. I was only agreeing that in some cases, an affair may actually lead to a positive outcome in some cases.
Silly_Girl Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 My husband and I stayed together after his affair, and we are much happier after the affair than we were before. However... this does not mean that his affair was a "good thing". We simply took a very horrible situation (him cheating) and used it as a catalyst to make a change for the better. But I really do believe that we could have accomplished the same goal through marriage counseling in a much much much less painful way. Hi FS, I'm really pleased you're happier now, but I get where you're coming from. Can I ask why you didn't take the counselling route?
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