"All's Fair in Love and War"

[Silly_Girl]

Oh, boy.

 

What is it? I know you understand English full well so I'm not entirely sure what the exclamation is for.

[donnamaybe]

What is it? I know you understand English full well so I'm not entirely sure what the exclamation is for.

"It's not open, it's just not closed." It just struck me funny.

[Silly_Girl]

"It's not open, it's just not closed." It just struck me funny.

 

The sentence sounds funny, but the concept is far from it.

[donnamaybe]

The sentence sounds funny, but the concept is far from it.

That's for sure.

[desertIslandCactus]

I absolutely agree with this. After many years in an abusive marriage I finally had the guts to move on. I am so glad I did. Now I have met the most wonderful, considerate man. I am happier than I have ever been. And my children are happier too.

 

There is a difference between an individual who feels they are unhappy in their relationship, and move on - as compared to individuals who have a death wish for another's M because they attach themselves to the spouse.

[fooled once]

So...to get back closer towards the original "All is fair in love and war" concept...does that mean that its ok for someone from the outside to push to open that door?

 

Or should they respect that the door is closed?

 

Or is the expectation that since the door wasn't locked, dead-bolted, security sealed and guarded with camera activated, motion-activated laser devices, the door was really meant to be opened by anyone who felt like it?

 

This whole "all is fair" concept to me is actually all about rationalization of your actions. The people who typically tout it are doing so to justify actions that most outsiders would view as reprehensible.

 

I agree with this post.

 

And again, it goes back to respecting someone else. Respecting that there is a spouse who has NO CLUE that their partner opened the door. The affair partner knows it, the cheater knows it, but the other spouse has no clue.

 

Once again I have to ask, WHY NOT DIVORCE??? If someone is so unhappy, why is the inclination to cheat and not divorce?

 

That's subjective. I may agree with your view on what they SHOULD be doing, but for some people cheating IS the true solution and will be for the foreseeable future, or forever.

 

IMHO cheating is NOT a solution - it is an excuse. Divorce is a solution. Divorce means that both parties in the marriage are aware there are problems. Divorce is above board and no one is left wondering the status. Divorce is a solution to an unhappy marriage. Cards are on the table. There isn't sneaking around.

 

The thing is, it's not really "opened" if all parties aren't aware it's opened. How "open" is a marriage wherein only ONE party feels they should be allowed to cheat? If the WS were to tell their spouse about their little side fling, THEN the M could be truly "open."

 

Yep, I agree.

 

I don't think a single person has a problem with a couple divorcing because of whatever reasons - unhappy, abusive, miserable, don't like the cat - whatever reasons.

 

The problem is when one person decides to cheat and in doing so, could cause irreparable harm to another - through STD's, through an unstable affair partner, a married affair partner who goes out to exact revenge, etc. In the affair - one part of the couple knows what is going on and the affair partner knows that the person they are screwing is married. Once again, there is one person who is left in the dark. I do not understand how people cannot see that cheating is not the answer to an unhappy or unfulfiling marriage. I see it as an excuse, a justification and cowardly.

[whichwayisup]

It's none of anyone's business why a couple divorces. It is between the couple. Who is the Divorce judge and goes around deciding when it is ok to divorce or not?

 

Thank you for saying that. With that said, it's also noone's buisness as to WHY a couple chooses to stay married. Either after a DDay or if the A just ends. A person doesn't need to justify their reasons to stay in a marriage. Their reasons are good enough and make sense to them.

[NoIDidn't]

Oh ? I don't call my parent's M a "happy ending" for either of them - they were both completely miserable, and only stayed together "for the kids" and split as soon as we were grown. My father's A did not "end" anything, and certainly not a "happy ending". Instead, it spawned one

 

Some people get M for reasons other than love and a belief in a "happy ending". Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and also ignores the fact that abusive, toxic or unhappy marriages SHOULD be ended, and should not be masked as "happy endings" to brainwash kids into thinking all Ms are like that.

 

Of course not all marriages follow a belief in a happy ending. Some are marriages of convenience - like for green cards so they can move freely between several countries.

 

My BIL and SIL did that. She wanted to stay in the States and he liked her well enough so they married. But they are extremely unhappy and cheat on each other left and right. What's confusing to me is that this marriage of convenience actually has offspring. I don't see the point of adding children to a marriage of convenience.

 

The kids aren't very happy either. But, hey, "all's fair in love and war". My BIL cheated on someone to ultimately be in this unhappy marriage.

[tami-chan]

I did not "assume." I came to a conclusion based upon your many threads here on LS, plenty of which appear on the "political" forum. If you are expressing yourself honestly, I think you've presented a reasonable picture of where you stand on the "traditional / conventional / conservative" continuum - excepting with regards to the institution of marriage, evidently.

 

I could be a Libertarian, you even considered that? or maybe I just pick and choose whatever works for me? ever consider that? Yes, you assumed. It's ok, it happens to the best of us..

 

Which is interesting, by the way, are you saying then that when one is a progressive/liberal one is more accepting/tolerant of extramarital affairs -ie. Clinton and Lewinsky, Flowers, et all? Seems like a silly notion to me.

 

Because in one of your posts, you labelled people with socio/political labels, based upon how they respond to the results of EMA's:

 

oh dear..did you mean my use of the word "conservative"? ahmm..hmmm..how about some perspective? ...it does not always have to include politics. It is like when I say a "conservative" estimate of whatever-there is nothing political about it. I think you are trying to play "gotcha" with me...stop..you are beginning to bore me (where's the yawning smiley?)

 

I find your conviction that somehow you are the person in charge of defining the mundane expression, "All's fair in love and war," and determining who does or does not actually understand it, amusing![/quote

 

In charge? well, no, let's not get ahead of ourselves ! But it IS definitely amusing to me that such a simple and yes, I agree with you-mundane- expression is so misunderstood. This is so trivial and mundane that YOU find yourself here, posting and engaging me. !

[NoIDidn't]

The reason nobody celebrates marriages that came from affairs is because they involved ending someone else's happy ending.

 

If all was truly fair in love and war for those marriages, they wouldn't care if they were celebrated or not since they got what they wanted - which I thought was the point.

 

Oh come now. Many marriages are the result of affairs. And many people attend those weddings and celebrate the marriage and toast to the happiness of the bride and groom. I know I have and most probably will again.

 

LOL. "Oh come on". Yes. Seriously.

 

I have been to those weddings too. I have snapped pictures of the bride and groom, purchased a gift and attended the reception. And while at the table listened to the conversation turn to how they met and whether or not the "ex" was in attendance or the children or whatever.

 

Of course, you know I wasn't talking about attending weddings. People celebrate marriages by protecting them in the community. I don't think that people do much to protect marriages that they know came about by infidelity/adultery. They won't tell the spouse if they find out about more cheating. Some might even say it served them right. I'm not saying that its right, just stating my thoughts on the matter before I get another "oh come on", LOL. I've really known people that pity them, not admire them.

 

I know plenty of women that will practically throw themselves at a man that has proven that he will cheat AND leave his W for an OW. I know men that will entice a woman that was once OW and married her M just to prove to themselves whatever negative thoughts they have of her. I'm not saying these people are typical, but they are out there.

 

And it goes with the topic of this thread nicely, "all's fair in love and war". Enough people are out there that don't feel that a mate gotten by infidelity is legit - unless they have them. Its a sad reality that I wouldn't want any to be in denial of.

[NoIDidn't]

 

A poster made a jab at me, made it personal.

 

No poster made a jab at you. Certainly not me. It seems you took the comment personally, because you are sensitive about it. But it certainly wasn't a jab. It was a well-known stat and that was all.

 

My favorite southern saying all over again.

[Silly_Girl]

IMHO cheating is NOT a solution - it is an excuse. Divorce is a solution. Divorce means that both parties in the marriage are aware there are problems. Divorce is above board and no one is left wondering the status. Divorce is a solution to an unhappy marriage. Cards are on the table. There isn't sneaking around.

 

You're doing the same. Projecting your moral standards on to the situation. Some people do believe that staying married and having affairs is a solution, or the only solution. I knew someone many years ago caring for her terminally ill husband who no longer appeared to be her husband. He was a shell of his former self and often didn't know who she was. He was somewhat older than her when they married (possibly 10-15 years) and she was effectively 'widowed' in her 40's but her husband was alive and needed her to care for him every day. Around 3 or 4 years in she found a companion, and the affair continued. That was HER solution, whether you approve or not.

[NoIDidn't]

You're doing the same. Projecting your moral standards on to the situation. Some people do believe that staying married and having affairs is a solution, or the only solution. I knew someone many years ago caring for her terminally ill husband who no longer appeared to be her husband. He was a shell of his former self and often didn't know who she was. He was somewhat older than her when they married (possibly 10-15 years) and she was effectively 'widowed' in her 40's but her husband was alive and needed her to care for him every day. Around 3 or 4 years in she found a companion, and the affair continued. That was HER solution, whether you approve or not.

 

Yeah, I can agree in this situation. She's honoring the part of her vows that's left to honor but also getting the much needed companionship that she needs. I known people that have had to make this decision.

 

I know what my moral and religious views are on adultery, but even I would take my chances and seek companionship if my H was incapacitated and no longer able to be an actual H.

[OWoman]

Of course not all marriages follow a belief in a happy ending. Some are marriages of convenience - like for green cards so they can move freely between several countries.

 

There are many reasons people get M. I'm sure "green cards" are only one of a long long list.

 

My parents got M because of societal expectations - they were the "appropriate" age, they were dating, they fitted each other's expectation profile, it was deemed a "suitable match".

 

I got M the first time because it had been that good a party, I was still "under the influence" of various substances, and it seemed like a fun idea at the time.

 

My brother got M because he had become fond of his W2B's kids and thought he could provide a stable home for them.

 

None of those Ms should have happened. All ended in D. Only one featured an A, but the A didn't end it - it ended when the two parties in it called "time" having fulfilled what they believed to be their duty.

 

My H got M the first time because new tax laws made it much more costly for them to continue living together without being M. That was a different kind of "M of convenience", and motivated not by love but by economics - I guess underscored by the fact that they had no celebration / reception to mark it in any way, they just went to the Registry Office and filled in some forms and went home and continued as before, not even telling their families until it happened to come up in passing conversation. And yes, adding kids to the mix was stupid - and went against their agreement. Perhaps cheating was inevitable, though it would have seemed a far more likely outcome for her to have cheated than him.

 

At least when we got M, we did so in love and for love, albeit not a belief in "happy endings" but in "happy beginnings". :love:

[Silly_Girl]

LOL. "Oh come on". Yes. Seriously.

 

I have been to those weddings too. I have snapped pictures of the bride and groom, purchased a gift and attended the reception. And while at the table listened to the conversation turn to how they met and whether or not the "ex" was in attendance or the children or whatever.

 

Of course, you know I wasn't talking about attending weddings. People celebrate marriages by protecting them in the community. I don't think that people do much to protect marriages that they know came about by infidelity/adultery. They won't tell the spouse if they find out about more cheating. Some might even say it served them right. I'm not saying that its right, just stating my thoughts on the matter before I get another "oh come on", LOL. I've really known people that pity them, not admire them.

 

I know plenty of women that will practically throw themselves at a man that has proven that he will cheat AND leave his W for an OW. I know men that will entice a woman that was once OW and married her M just to prove to themselves whatever negative thoughts they have of her. I'm not saying these people are typical, but they are out there.

 

And it goes with the topic of this thread nicely, "all's fair in love and war". Enough people are out there that don't feel that a mate gotten by infidelity is legit - unless they have them. Its a sad reality that I wouldn't want any to be in denial of.

 

Reading some of this stuff makes me so glad to be me. I've not heard someone say they don't wish someone well in their marriage, even if they thought they were crazy to do so!

[OWoman]

Of course' date=' you know I wasn't talking about attending weddings. People celebrate marriages by protecting them in the community. I don't think that people do much to protect marriages that they know came about by infidelity/adultery. [b']They won't tell the spouse if they find out about more cheating. Some might even say it served them right.[/b] I'm not saying that its right, just stating my thoughts on the matter before I get another "oh come on", LOL. I've really known people that pity them, not admire them.

 

I was about to disagree with this post, and then paused for thought. I wonder if it explains, at least in part, why no one tried to "protect" my H's former M with his xW, given that it was the result of her infidelity against her first H? Perhaps they thought she deserved it for having done the same to her xH? Or perhaps her treatment of her first H just fed into the general picture they had of her, as someone who doesn't treat other people very nicely (as they'd all experienced with her too) so that the previous infidelity was just another piece in the puzzle?

 

On the issue of attending weddings but not celebrating the wedding - I am so glad not to count hypocrites like that among my family or friends! Everyone who attended our wedding celebrations was genuinely happy for us, and it is evidenced by far more than attending a party of producing a gift. It shows in the many ways they integrate us fully into their lives, their homes, their friendship circles and their hearts. Life is so short, why waste energy on fair weather friends?

[NoIDidn't]

Oh dear Mr NoIDidn't. I hope I didn't offend you with that remark. That wasn't my intention at all! I do appreciate that not every man can tell one fabric from another, and that as such a man you may have found my comment overly judgemental. I apologize if that is the case. No offense was intended.

 

But it does grieve me so when he buys her a cheap velour dress and tells her it is velvet! Oh!

 

Not offended at all. It was pretty funny.

[NoIDidn't]

Reading some of this stuff makes me so glad to be me. I've not heard someone say they don't wish someone well in their marriage, even if they thought they were crazy to do so!

 

I'm just saying on this forum what people won't likely say to their faces.

 

And again, I never said it was right. I simply said that it happens, and happens often.

 

More people would benefit if people were honest that they too do this under other circumstances. I know people hate having adultery likened to actual criminal undertakings, but a lot of people do treat those that they find out have gotten together as a result of infidelity with a quiet disdain.

 

I should know. I've faced this in my own marriage, even though we didn't get together as a result of infidelity between us. I married the ex of a friend. They were long broken up by then and she had given me her blessing to date him. But as soon as we married (and she was already married to the guy she cheated on him with), she started switching the story so that not only was I now accused of cheating, but also of betraying a friend.

 

I know for a fact that people can be the way that I described because I've experienced it. So I'm not here saying that I am that way or that its right. I'm stating it because it can happen and it does happen. And its part of the "all's fair in love and war". I was betrayed by my friend and her lies. I can imagine it feels different to people that actually did cheat, though. But I have no experience of actually cheating and facing the consequences.

 

I try not to assume things about posters here because I don't know their story. I'm quite ecstatic to be myself as well. I wouldn't change what happened at all. It gave me insight into the masks that people wear and how they will lie to your face. I prefer not to do that. I prefer to tell people the truth of what "all's fair in love and war" can actually look like.

 

It ain't pretty.

[desertIslandCactus]

Reading some of this stuff makes me so glad to be me. I've not heard someone say they don't wish someone well in their marriage, even if they thought they were crazy to do so!

 

The whole forum is that of people not wishing others well in their marriages. i.e. those trying to break up marriages - while waiting for the MM to leave his wife.

[Silly_Girl]

The whole forum is that of people not wishing others well in their marriages. i.e. those trying to break up marriages - while waiting for the MM to leave his wife.

 

The thread at the time was about those attending (or not) the wedding of a couple. And a wedding is generally intended to be a celebration of the nuptials. That was the context.

[silktricks]

You are one of the posters that I think the best acronym to describe you is happily married. And loves her husband.

 

Thank you.

 

Thank-you. I am and I do.

[Summer Breeze]

Reading some of this stuff makes me so glad to be me. I've not heard someone say they don't wish someone well in their marriage, even if they thought they were crazy to do so!

 

I agree. If people weren't happy for my relationship as it was then don't bother coming to the wedding. I'm with you. Over the years I've known loads of people who have come together via adultery. It's sad but it's much more common than people want to admit. I've not once heard people not wish them well in their Ms or have hidden bad thoughts.

 

The people I have to support my Rs are friends and if my friends were going to be 2faced and judgemental they can pi@@ off. If my friends acted like NIDs friends they'd be acquaintances and not within spitting distance of me.

 

If I knew how to do the multiple posting thing I would have so some of this could have been directed at the original post by NID.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Summer Breeze
I have a habit of pressing buttons too early!

[silktricks]

LOL. "Oh come on". Yes. Seriously.

 

I have been to those weddings too. I have snapped pictures of the bride and groom, purchased a gift and attended the reception. And while at the table listened to the conversation turn to how they met and whether or not the "ex" was in attendance or the children or whatever.

 

Of course, you know I wasn't talking about attending weddings. People celebrate marriages by protecting them in the community. I don't think that people do much to protect marriages that they know came about by infidelity/adultery. They won't tell the spouse if they find out about more cheating. Some might even say it served them right. I'm not saying that its right, just stating my thoughts on the matter before I get another "oh come on", LOL. I've really known people that pity them, not admire them.

:)Actually, I did think you were talking about attending weddings, as that is the "celebrating" of a marriage to me. The rest of what you say, I personally have seen very little of. There are always some mean spirited people in any group, so I tend to disregard the negative and focus on the positive. I figure if people aren't in truth happy to see the couple before them marrying, then they shouldn't attend the wedding.

 

I know plenty of women that will practically throw themselves at a man that has proven that he will cheat AND leave his W for an OW. I know men that will entice a woman that was once OW and married her M just to prove to themselves whatever negative thoughts they have of her. I'm not saying these people are typical, but they are out there.

 

And it goes with the topic of this thread nicely, "all's fair in love and war". Enough people are out there that don't feel that a mate gotten by infidelity is legit - unless they have them. Its a sad reality that I wouldn't want any to be in denial of.

 

I know plenty of women that will practically throw themselves at any man , and likewise with men . I guess there probably are people out there who do so more in the case of AP partners marrying, but there are a lot of people out there period, so it's not unusual to find all kinds... It hasn't been my personal experience that the marriage of AP partners is treated differently than the marriage of any other couple.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree. If people weren't happy for my relationship as it was then don't bother coming to the wedding. I'm with you. Over the years I've known loads of people who have come together via adultery. It's sad but it's much more common than people want to admit. I've not once heard people not wish them well in their Ms or have hidden bad thoughts.

 

The people I have to support my Rs are friends and if my friends were going to be 2faced and judgemental they can pi@@ off. If my friends acted like NIDs friends they'd be acquaintances and not within spitting distance of me.

 

If I knew how to do the multiple posting thing I would have so some of this could have been directed at the original post by NID.

 

Make no mistake, I don't consider this person a friend anymore. Not even worthy of recognizing as an acquaintance either.

 

Couples that marry as a result of infidelity are becoming more and more common these days, so maybe they won't face what I did (and I wasn't even his OW). I guess the thing for me is that many of my "friends" are the exWs or still unhappily married to the guys. That might be why my view is that people will not support the new marriage because it is what I see. Not what I do, but what I see.

[Star_Bright]

LOL:lmao:. Actually I was having fun with Owl. Settle down, your star is dimming. Check this out. People who live by the saying "All is fair in love and war" do not concern themselves with fairness. Asking the question "is this fair?" in this context is moot.

 

 

 

Heavens, no...although it is quite a shock to me that many have misunderstood or choose to misunderstand this saying.

 

Okay... I guess I just don't understand your writing style because you were coming across to me as condescending and smug. My apologies if I misunderstood and you were joking.