"All's Fair in Love and War"

[pureinheart]

On the issue of attending weddings but not celebrating the wedding - I am so glad not to count hypocrites like that among my family or friends! Everyone who attended our wedding celebrations was genuinely happy for us, and it is evidenced by far more than attending a party of producing a gift. It shows in the many ways they integrate us fully into their lives, their homes, their friendship circles and their hearts. Life is so short, why waste energy on fair weather friends?

 

Having been to a few weddings that were generated from the A, I went because I liked the people, it made no difference what the past was, how they met, where they met, whatever. Two of my M were AP related. We kept the people in our lives that were for us, I was glad to get rid of the rest.

[OWoman]

The whole forum is that of people not wishing others well in their marriages. i.e. those trying to break up marriages - while waiting for the MM to leave his wife.

 

OTC. I've never tried to break up a marriage. I don't believe I could - only the people in the marriage can make it or break it.

 

My H's previous M ended because it was toxic and was euthenased. It was not "broken up" from the outside, but imploded from the inside.

 

I've also not seen, or known, of OPs not "wishing others well in their marriages" - this forum is full of the opposite, of OPs wishing their fAPs happiness if they choose to return to the M because they love them and want the best for them. IME people who love each other want what is best for the other - and so wish the other well. But I would not wish a toxic R well, whether it was a M or a A or any other kind of R - even if I wished the people in it well - because if the R was toxic, then wishing it well would mean wishing ill on the people in it.

[jthorne]

The betrayed and the other are just the opposite sides of a coin.

Totally disagree. A BS doesn't typically ask to be cheated on. An OW typically goes in knowing the MM is married. The OW takes the risk voluntarily, the BS does not.

 

Apples to oranges.

[Mme. Chaucer]

WWIU,

 

 

 

 

Why a person leaves or stays is really moot. It's the action that matters. And it is the one who is left heartbroken that wonders why the choice was made.

 

And then they try to rationalize the "why" so it doesn't hurt so bad...

 

"Oh they always affair down"

 

"Once a cheater always a cheater"

 

"If he cheats with you, he'll cheat on you"

 

He stays for the "fill in the blank"

 

I mean really? It's all just to try and make the hurt go away.

 

The betrayed and the other are just the opposite sides of a coin.

 

This is patently untrue. I mean, it is true in circumstances, but I don't know why so many women here insist that the ONLY people who say the above quoted statements are "betrayed wives."

 

Whether they are true statements or not, they are believed and said by many many people who believe in monogamous marriage; who very much want to believe that fidelity is possible; who want the institution "protected" in our society. Plenty of these people are not reacting this way because they, themselves, are a betrayed spouse - though of course some are.

 

Why is it difficult to understand that lots of people are freaked out by deceitful behavior; feel viscerally that disloyalty, "cheating" in any form (like, cheating on exams, or your taxes - not just on your spouse), dishonesty, being untrue to ones word, etc. are really negative, and that watching other people doing so facilely can feel threatening - NOT only if it happens to you personally?

[Jonah]

The term "all is fair in love and war" is said by those that could care less who they hurt.

 

"If you are going to make an omelet, you're going to have to break a few eggs. "

 

-The Joker in Batman 1

[Jonah]

"If he loves you, he'll move mountains to be with you"...

:love:

 

Whoppee! Yippee yahoo! Here is to you!

You know that yours may have been just a transitional affair, him looking for a way out already. I'm not saying that your not special, (everyone is special) I am just saying.

 

"All glory is fleeting"

-slave to a Roman conqueror just before the fall of the empire.

 

"Pride comes before the fall"

-Proverbs 16:18

[desertIslandCactus]

"If you are going to make an omelet, you're going to have to break a few eggs. "

 

-The Joker in Batman 1

 

 

Funny .. and that about sez it

[desertIslandCactus]

Whoppee! Yippee yahoo! Here is to you!

You know that yours may have been just a transitional affair, him looking for a way out already. I'm not saying that your not special, (everyone is special) I am just saying.

 

"All glory is fleeting"

-slave to a Roman conqueror just before the fall of the empire.

 

"Pride comes before the fall"

-Proverbs 16:18

 

Yep. And pride does come before the fall.

[findingnemo]

To me, the OP (let me use OW) is in a real dilemma from the get go. She meets a man whom she finds attractive. She doesn't ask about the state of his M. She doesn't ask because her instinct tells her that she should leave it alone, avoid him. In many As that I know, all questions come AFTER the first few sexual encounters. And the first sexual encounter...that is usually unpredictable. At this point, the MM and OW are already guilty of deceit. We all know the various excuses/reasons used to hide As, but can I ask this? What would happen if immediately she realized how she felt (before physical consummation), "potential" OW contacted the W and told her about it? What would she say to W?Assuming that potential OW's concern is to be fair rather than getting instant gratification, would such a conversation be encouraged? What should a woman who has just met an MM do? From the other side, what should an MM do in order to be fair?

 

I sense a disconnect between an ideal and reality. I'm not defending affairs. I'm just saying that I don't see things in black and white any more. There are shades of gray. If engaging in As is deceitful and unfair, how about just fighting tooth and nail to get the object of your affection for yourself? The latter bears no deceit and is the epitome of truth. However, it is also cruel and unnecessary considering that a M could be destroyed for no reason.

 

I know right from wrong. I am just not sure about what's fair and what's unfair.

[silktricks]

To me, the OP (let me use OW) is in a real dilemma from the get go. She meets a man whom she finds attractive. She doesn't ask about the state of his M. She doesn't ask because her instinct tells her that she should leave it alone, avoid him. In many As that I know, all questions come AFTER the first few sexual encounters. And the first sexual encounter...that is usually unpredictable. At this point, the MM and OW are already guilty of deceit. We all know the various excuses/reasons used to hide As, but can I ask this? What would happen if immediately she realized how she felt (before physical consummation), "potential" OW contacted the W and told her about it? What would she say to W?Assuming that potential OW's concern is to be fair rather than getting instant gratification, would such a conversation be encouraged? What should a woman who has just met an MM do? From the other side, what should an MM do in order to be fair?

 

I sense a disconnect between an ideal and reality. I'm not defending affairs. I'm just saying that I don't see things in black and white any more. There are shades of gray. If engaging in As is deceitful and unfair, how about just fighting tooth and nail to get the object of your affection for yourself? The latter bears no deceit and is the epitome of truth. However, it is also cruel and unnecessary considering that a M could be destroyed for no reason.

 

I know right from wrong. I am just not sure about what's fair and what's unfair.

 

I think this should be the subject of its own thread...

[Snowflower]

WWIU,

 

I agree with you. It is no one's business why people stay married. I think that's really what I'm trying to get at.

 

Why a person leaves or stays is really moot. It's the action that matters. And it is the one who is left heartbroken that wonders why the choice was made.

 

And then they try to rationalize the "why" so it doesn't hurt so bad...

 

"Oh they always affair down"

 

"Once a cheater always a cheater"

 

"If he cheats with you, he'll cheat on you"

 

He stays for the "fill in the blank"

 

I mean really? It's all just to try and make the hurt go away.

 

The betrayed and the other are just the opposite sides of a coin.

 

With the exception of the last sentence, I pretty much agree with this post. I think all the pat answers that are given to anyone hurting after an affair are a way to rationalize it and lessen the pain. This goes for the OW and the BS.

 

All those statements above (and others that I can't think of right now) are just a way to rationalize things so that they don't seem so painful.

 

This post reminds me of an article I read on, get this-an OW website. As a BS, I found it pretty darn accurate. It talked about how painful affairs are and how as a society, we tend to give pat answers to those hurting such as those listed above or make bad jokes about a truly painful subject.

 

Anyway, nice post, BB. I hope I was understanding correctly what you wrote.

[findingnemo]

I think this should be the subject of its own thread...

 

 

Hmmm...yes, I should. I can't tell yet if it's a t/j or not but I can imagine that it is a whole new discussion!!

[Jonah]

ya, and "never rub another man's rhubarb"

:lmao:

[jthorne]

You do not understand what I am trying to say because you already have your mind made up.

 

Which is fine by me.

 

But if you look at all the stories, the feelings by the betrayed and the other are so much the same, just in a different context. Thus the coin as a visual.

 

I know the betrayed doesn't like to be compared to the other and vice versa but what I'm saying is this:

 

Two women love the same man. And the A causes both pain and hurt. That is what I meant.

 

I think that perhaps before just jumping up and saying you don't agree just BECAUSE I'm BeachBetty, maybe you should hear what I am actually saying.

It has nothing to do with your identity or my understanding of your post. I simply disagree with you. Please don't make it personal.

 

IMO, you are talking about two seperate coins, not opposite sides of the same coin.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[OWoman]

Totally disagree. A BS doesn't typically ask to be cheated on. An OW typically goes in knowing the MM is married. The OW takes the risk voluntarily, the BS does not.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

Any R involves taking risks. There are no guarantees in any R. Anyone going into an R thinking otherwise is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if things don't work out the way they wanted them to.

[donnamaybe]

Any R involves taking risks. There are no guarantees in any R. Anyone going into an R thinking otherwise is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if things don't work out the way they wanted them to.

Agreed. However, I equate this notion with a conversation I had with a gal who was defending her smoking habit hurting her health. She said, "Well, I could walk out in the street and get run over by a bus too!" to which I replied, "Well, yeah, we all could, but I don't plan to jump in the middle of the street just before the bus gets there and wait for it to hit me."

[OWoman]

Agreed. However, I equate this notion with a conversation I had with a gal who was defending her smoking habit hurting her health. She said, "Well, I could walk out in the street and get run over by a bus too!" to which I replied, "Well, yeah, we all could, but I don't plan to jump in the middle of the street just before the bus gets there and wait for it to hit me."

 

Using your analogy, what I would consider a more fitting example would be the naive person who walks into the street not knowing when the bus is coming, and maybe gets hit or maybe doesn't... vs the clued-up person who knows the bus route and the bus time table, and chooses when to walk into the street informed by that knowledge.

 

Whether you are an fOW formalising a post-A R with your fMM, or a fBW reconciling with your fWH, you know the bus route and the bus time table. What you do with that knowledge is up to you - you can use it to inform and build your R in a strong, healthy way (assuming both are willing, dedicated and prioritising the new R, and dealing with the issues that led to the A) or you can pretend that the bus isn't there, and hope it's not going to hit you on its next circuit.

[donnamaybe]

Or you can be even wiser and stay out of the path of the oncoming bus completely.

[silktricks]

But I need to get across the street and don't want to walk around town to get there.... :laugh:

 

Just enjoying the analogy, don't mind me....

[OWoman]

But I need to get across the street and don't want to walk around town to get there.... :laugh:

 

Just enjoying the analogy, don't mind me....

 

... Or perhaps you prefer taking the trip by bus?

[Owl]

... Or perhaps you prefer taking the trip by bus?

 

Fair enough, but make sure that you're actually paying the bus fair, and not just hitching a ride at someone else's expense!

[OWoman]

Fair enough, but make sure that you're actually paying the bus fair, and not just hitching a ride at someone else's expense!

 

I have a season ticket :p :p

[seren]

Well then I shall just drive my own dammed car and if I choose to give someone a lift I shall make sure they don't damage the paintwork, only have the one passenger (tis an Aston Martin DB9) who I invite for the journey, any back seat drivers need to know they will be turfed out if not invited specifically by me. The car is of course a figment of my imagination and no one meddles with my engine or part that finds itself employed in its running, I like to know where my parts come from and they sure as hell are never secondhand or reconditioned.

 

On the other hand, if I choose to trade it in, it shall be my decision, however as it is a classic I think I shall overlook the short term dodgy engine noises having had it serviced and sorted I think I shall keep it, or I may decide on a motorbike .... hmm I have a Range Rover which has a whole load of different analogies awaiting, however tis pretty good off road and is built for comfort rather than speed oh and is dammed powerful!!

[Got it]

Another happy fOW with a very soon dMM. While there may be some truth to all generalizations there is a lot of assumptions to them as well. While we understand why it happened, we have been in couples counseling to make sure our foundation is as strong as possible and continue to work on communication and conflict resolution as well as just stress. I have definitely learned in my previous marriage, counseling is best served when the relationship is still good.

 

OW - we have similar stories, stbxw had the same double standard in regards to her affair. But then her affair was his fault and his affair was definitely his fault!

 

Each person is different, as are each affair, and I was pretty pragmatic walking into ours. Even had an agreement drawn up with timelines, etc so there was no misunderstanding on what each party was saying. I was never one that ran on dreams of puppy dogs and rainbows.