silktricks Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I actually do not think these are good words to live by. Perhaps if you read what I posted carefully and not be so biased you will understand I was merely trying to explain the saying. It appears to me that most of the people who have posted on this thread understood the meaning of the phrase quite well prior to your oh so careful ad nauseum explanation. Supposedly nothing is out of bounds. Many of us do not agree with that idea. We understand the meaning and understand that many people do agree with the phrase and live their lives in accordance. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Just as my comment about not agreeing with these words is indeed assigning my own moral values...your defense of these words is equally an act of assigning your moral values. Frankly...a discussion on this would be impossible without doing so. Nothing wrong with it. We're equally "right" for doing so. How so? Did I say you were wrong? (or right, for that matter)? I just said, saying what you said was assigning your values to other people. It was not a statement of right or wrong or good or bad. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It appears to me that most of the people who have posted on this thread understood the meaning of the phrase quite well prior to your oh so careful ad nauseum explanation. Supposedly nothing is out of bounds. Many of us do not agree with that idea. We understand the meaning and understand that many people do agree with the phrase and live their lives in accordance. I get it, you still have no clue. I would venture to say, very few people truly agree with the saying or even have the gumption or the courage to live by it. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 How so? Did I say you were wrong? (or right, for that matter)? I just said, saying what you said was assigning your values to other people. It was not a statement of right or wrong or good or bad. So why did you point it out at all? Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 So why did you point it out at all? To enlighten you? or simply because I can. Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 As I said in my response to the original post on this thread...it's a good thing that this saying is not patently "true", or even good words to live by. Nor is "all fair in love". Societies have always had moral/social conventions around what's acceptable in the pursuit of love and what is not. According to this quaint little phrase...I would have been justified in carrying out those acts. After all..."all is fair...". Personally I don't think its particularly wise to throw a saying out like this when you feel it supports your position...because it would then open you up for all kinds of potential responses back from the OTHER "love interest". If all is fair...then whatever the other person in the triangle opts to do to you or against you in the name of love is now "fair", right? It can't just apply one way. If all is fair "for you"....all is fair "against you", too. Sorry...but this is just one of those really inane and thoughtless sayings. Perhaps. But, you are assigning YOUR moral values to other people. Owl, AGAIN, (AD NAUSEUM) the saying does NOT mean that everything you do for love is fair. It simply means ( rightly or wrongly) that all is fair game in love ( or war, for that matter). It does not take into consideration any fair play. Your bolded statements shows you are not understanding the saying. Oye. The statement, in fact, if played out in real life is really UNFAIR! Ceasefire for a moment: "All is fair in love and war" is an idiom - a phrase which is easily understood by speakers of the language in which it is written, but should the words be taken literally would have a totally different meaning. Examples are 1) You are the apple of my eye, 2) It's a drop in the bucket and 3) We are all in the same boat. If this is the case, what is the meaning of "All is fair..."? Whoever coined this idiom believes that in two situations, human beings will do wahtever it takes to win. In war and in love, ALL rules get thrown out the window. In a war, ambushes will occur, spies will be planted, chemical weapons will be used, etc. All this contrary to internationally agreed upon rules of engagement. In love, people will be malicious, selfish, murderous, vindictive, even satanic in their attempts to get what they want and still claim they did it for "love". Cemeteries and prisons are filled with people who were either "loved" or victims of "love". As tami-chan said, the meaning is ".. all is fair game in love ( or war..". The idiom warns you not to be surprised if your rival in a war or a love "battle" does the worst thing possible to win. What if the saying is taken literally, is any action considered fair? Then as Owl said, "..this is just one of those really inane and thoughtless sayings". Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 perhaps the true meaning of this saying lies within the person using it... it can ( just like any other saying) have it's original and intended meaning turned to support one's own point of view. perhaps one could compare the meaning of this saying to the saying " the ends justify the means"... in the case of "all's fair in love and war", winning the war ( or the object of one's affection) is the ultimate goal, and the "collateral damage" that is inflicted on innocent parties is often not taken into consideration ( at best) or( at worst) is considered acceptable Agreed. I don't think there's a "this is the only way to interpret" this phrase clause anywhere. When I read/hear "All is fair in love and war"...to me...it pretty much means the same as "the end justifies the means". It means (TO ME) that the person stating it feels that they can/should pursue the relationship they want to have by any means, without any care or concerns about repercussions or impacts. Others may interpret it differently...but this is what it means to me when I hear it. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) Ceasefire for a moment: "All is fair in love and war" is an idiom - a phrase which is easily understood by speakers of the language in which it is written, but should the words be taken literally would have a totally different meaning. Examples are 1) You are the apple of my eye, 2) It's a drop in the bucket and 3) We are all in the same boat. If this is the case, what is the meaning of "All is fair..."? Whoever coined this idiom believes that in two situations, human beings will do wahtever it takes to win. In war and in love, ALL rules get thrown out the window. In a war, ambushes will occur, spies will be planted, chemical weapons will be used, etc. All this contrary to internationally agreed upon rules of engagement. In love, people will be malicious, selfish, murderous, vindictive, even satanic in their attempts to get what they want and still claim they did it for "love". Cemeteries and prisons are filled with people who were either "loved" or victims of "love". As tami-chan said, the meaning is ".. all is fair game in love ( or war..". The idiom warns you not to be surprised if your rival in a war or a love "battle" does the worst thing possible to win. What if the saying is taken literally, is any action considered fair? Then as Owl said, "..this is just one of those really inane and thoughtless sayings". Interesting. I agree that it could be meant as a warning as you mention. It can also be a statement of intent. It could mean that you should be careful about what your rival (in war or love) may do to win. Or it could be meant as a warning/statement that you're willing to do anything to win the conflict (love or war). And sometimes it's used to rationalize/justify the actions you've taken in the pusuit of your goal. Edited March 3, 2011 by Owl Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 And taken in the context of the original post...option #3 seems to be how it was used in this case. Owoman got her goal of having a relationship with her (now) H. She indicated that HOW she obtained her goal was reflected in this "all is fair" statement. Q.E.D. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I never implied you held any particular view, was merely saying you were free to. Really? Well... I think below is a crappy, veiled attempt to do just that. No where did he write anything that would deny the fact that you .... might think these are good words to live by. You are free to do so, even if Owl disagrees with you. Actually, I don't think Owl disagreed with me. I just pointed out that he misunderstood the saying. Saying what you said above is ridiculous because while you use the qualifier "might" it is actually a veiled attempt to cast doubt and is baseless- nowhere in my posts did I say that this belief is a good one to live by or even allude to it. I simply attempted to explain ( and failing miserably-apparently- must be because English is not my first language ) the saying. There was no endorsement to any side...not until later, anyway. But I am puzzled as to why you say I am biased because I see Owl giving his opinion where you see him projecting his values on others.and so be it Link to post Share on other sites
Viscious Vendetta Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I would venture to say, very few people truly agree with the saying or even have the gumption or the courage to live by it.It takes much more gumption and courage to live with integrity and by a moral code, than it does to live without. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 What if the saying is taken literally, is any action considered fair? Then as Owl said, "..this is just one of those really inane and thoughtless sayings". Is any action considered fair? it depends on the outcome, is it not? Who is going to get hurt? or who got hurt? What will be the damages? What is the extent of the damage? etc.etc. of course, someone who goes for this will not concern himself/herself with any of these questions. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 IMO the saying claims that conventional rules do not apply in love and war. As many others have said, I don't agree with the saying. Maybe it is my morals getting in the way that prevent me from throwing the "rules" out the window for my own benefit. The OW in my case tried many ways to get my H to come to her after d-day (and before). Some of the things she did I would never do (for anyone) since it would be against my moral fiber. So, as applied to fairness in love and war, what she found to be fair, I would find degrading to me as a woman. I guess it is up to the individual as to how far a person would go and what is considered fair or not (or if fair even applies). In the end, we have to live with our choices. I made the choice to not fight the war. I found that to be the "fair" way to deal with my H's affair. Fair for me, my H and the OW. Have I made the choice to ignore "my" rules, I am certain there would have been much more destruction for all involved. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It takes much more gumption and courage to live with integrity and by a moral code, than it does to live without. Is that why there are many more martyrs than closeted sinners? Link to post Share on other sites
woinlove Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Really? Well... I think below is a crappy, veiled attempt to do just that. Sorry for not being clearer then. I used the word "might" to convey a possibility - not an actuality. But, again, why all the negative assumptions - biased, crappy, veiled,...? This is just a discussion about a phrase which gets tossed around a certain amount regarding affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Is that why there are many more martyrs than closeted sinners? People who strap explosives onto themselves for the sake of killing many - consider themselves martyrs .. Righteousness is sometimes in the eye of the beholder? Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 And taken in the context of the original post...option #3 seems to be how it was used in this case. Owoman got her goal of having a relationship with her (now) H. She indicated that HOW she obtained her goal was reflected in this "all is fair" statement. Q.E.D.[/QUOTE] Dang...I should read the OP again because I just don't see that. What's Q.E.D? Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Reformed OW:confused:? What the heck is that? It's a term used sometimes on here for people who were once OWs but who left the affair and feel that it was a bad decision for us to have been in the affair in the first place. I must have missed historical posts in which OWoman said things about fBS because when I read her post, I don't sense any vitriol. OWoman made a joke saying that fBS was not really as a big a problem as a mountain. Well, it is mean to call someone almost as big as a mountain. I don't know how we can't agree as to that, at least. I think the point that other posters are trying to make is that it makes OWoman look bad to have what she wants (her H) and still be throwing out insults about his ex-wife. It is not a classy thing to do. IMO. We are all entitled to our own opinions. Where does the idea that OWoman is mocking her (unfairly) come from? See the above. If you don't call making fun of someone's weight "mocking" them, then, I guess we just have total differences of opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
silktricks Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I think you misunderstood the meaning of the saying or cliche'. Here's my favorite explanation of this saying: "All is fair in LOVE and WAR": "You have to pay special attention to 'All' in "All is Fair in Love and War." 'All' in this context is meant to express that nothing is out of bounds when it comes to love and war. Everything is fair game. You might misinterpret this phrase to mean that "love and war is fair," this is likely a common misconception." I would like to point out that this conversation, though very interesting had it's roots in this statement from TC. Which states almost word for word what OWL and others have said, and is according to TC what the saying means, so it appears that most posters have understood what it meant all along . Nothing is out of bounds (according to the saying). Another link I followed indicated the original statement was something along the line of "The rules of fair play are suspended for love and war." Now, I'm out. Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 SB I feel your posts are good, but in this case not valid. Pedantically speaking, all is fair in love as the saying goes, because love is worth more than anything else. So if you betray someone for it, that's OK. Which may be true. There is nothing about fairness in the saying - that's the point of it. It says there is an override to fairness. You have ignored this override because of your current morality/life perspective. And besides, this saying exists because people kill, abandon, and basically behave out of character if one of these pressures. Nothing else quite cuts that. The fact that people have killed and abandoned in the name of love doesn't make these actions fair. I am saying that the saying is wrong because these things are not fair. In whose opinion, anywhere, would these things be fair? Anyway I guess we are just arguing semantics or something but I don't understand your point. I'll just agree to disagree because it doesn't really matter to me. I don't think these things are ever fair, even if done in the name of love, and I don't know who would think that they are! Link to post Share on other sites
silktricks Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Dang...I should read the OP again because I just don't see that. What's Q.E.D? I cannot remember the exact Latin phrase the letters stand for, but it's meaning is that the subject has been proven. It's used in mathematics. Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I am confused. Did I respond to any of your post? I know I directed one post to LADYGREY. Are you and LADYGREY one and the same? hmmm.... Anyway, I did not say the statement is true or false or that it is right or wrong. I simply explained what it means. You still do not understand it. Read more below. My apologies... I thought your post was aimed at everyone, to explain to everyone what the saying meant. So I was just saying that maybe the issue isn't that people (such as LadyGrey, or everyone in general) don't understand what the saying means, but that they disagree with it. Anyway I wasn't trying to fight with you. And I do understand what it means. Perhaps our interpretations differ and that's fine. No one has a monopoly on interpreting popular sayings. Thank goodness, we all have our own brains and can think/interpret for ourselves! Link to post Share on other sites
Spark1111 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Sorry for not being clearer then. I used the word "might" to convey a possibility - not an actuality. But, again, why all the negative assumptions - biased, crappy, veiled,...? This is just a discussion about a phrase which gets tossed around a certain amount regarding affairs. Like moral judgements, ad nauseum, and what else? Thank GOD I have my morals and judgements to live by! Otherwise somebody could have wound up dead and Id still be in jail!:laugh::laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
Star_Bright Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 To enlighten you? or simply because I can. WOW! Why are you being so argumentative with everyone except those who agree with you or understand what it is you're trying to say? Do you really think you are smarter than everyone or have some expert understanding of this saying that the rest of us are lacking due to our unenlightenment? For real? Wow! Link to post Share on other sites
Spark1111 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 WOW! Why are you being so argumentative with everyone except those who agree with you or understand what it is you're trying to say? Do you really think you are smarter than everyone or have some expert understanding of this saying that the rest of us are lacking due to our unenlightenment? For real? Wow! That's right, I forgot. Unenlightened too! Yep, that's me. Apparently Owl and woinlove too! Silktricks also. We are just happy, moralistic, unenlightened plebians....Jeez, who knew? Link to post Share on other sites
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