When is a cheater no longer a cheater?

[Silly_Girl]

....Not a Christmas cracker riddle, but a question based on SidLyon's comment that those who begin a new permanent relationship out of an affair are equally at risk of being the victim of cheating as those who have been cheated on and elect to reconcile. She said 'we're both married to cheaters'.

 

Just curious as to whether a cheater can ever be an ex-cheater in the way an alcoholic may become an ex-alcoholic or whether the consensus of the board is simply the old leopard/spots issue and even if someone has been faithful and true for 30, 40 or 50 years, if they once cheated they shall be spoken of as a cheater for the rest of their life.

[Woggle]

When they are no longer cheating on people and have not been doing it for some time.

[Carrot2000]

Well, there's really no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic"; the person is an alcoholic who no longer drinks. Along that vein, I guess there is no such thing as an "ex-cheater". The person is still a cheater, but chooses not to engage in infidelity anymore. The fact that you no longer cheat doesn't erase the past behavior.

[Silly_Girl]

It doesn't erase it, but if someone hasn't drunk alcohol for 20 years, let's say, and most or all of their friends only know them as teetotal, it would seem odd to me if they were to be described amongst their peers, or introduced as an alcoholic.

[20Seconds]

Well I managed to get to the age of 40 without ever cheating, did it once, and probably wouldn;t ever do it again.

 

It was a choice to behave as I did, and one I regret.

 

I don;t think cheating for most people is like being an alcoholic, I think it's just a poor choice and occurs when the alternative choices just happen look worse - frightening, painful, etc.

[SidLyon]

....Not a Christmas cracker riddle, but a question based on SidLyon's comment that those who begin a new permanent relationship out of an affair are equally at risk of being the victim of cheating as those who have been cheated on and elect to reconcile. She said 'we're both married to cheaters'.

 

Just curious as to whether a cheater can ever be an ex-cheater in the way an alcoholic may become an ex-alcoholic or whether the consensus of the board is simply the old leopard/spots issue and even if someone has been faithful and true for 30, 40 or 50 years, if they once cheated they shall be spoken of as a cheater for the rest of their life.

 

Good question, I wish I knew the answer.

 

I wasn't promoting the "once a cheater always a cheater" idea, but was making the point that once it's happened it's best for the partner of the person who cheated, to not be in denial about it, irrespective of whether the partner is old or new wife.

 

I certainly don't go around introducing him as "my husband, Mr Lyon, the cheater".

[Carrot2000]

It doesn't erase it, but if someone hasn't drunk alcohol for 20 years, let's say, and most or all of their friends only know them as teetotal, it would seem odd to me if they were to be described amongst their peers, or introduced as an alcoholic.

 

No, but the person would describe him/herself as an alcoholic. Acknowledging the propensity to abuse alcohol is part of the recover, and the former drinker is always aware of this and avoid situations where they may be tempted to drink. Most of their friends might know them as a teetotaler, but there are others who remember them as alcoholics and there's nothing that can be done to erase that memory.

 

Maybe it's the same for someone who has cheated. Perhaps they remind themselves of their past behavior to avoid repeating it in the future. Again, the person may no longer cheat, but those who were impacted by or have knowledge of the behavior will probably always view him/her as a cheater. It's a consequence of the behavior, I suppose.

[Silly_Girl]

Good question, I wish I knew the answer.

 

I wasn't promoting the "once a cheater always a cheater" idea, but was making the point that once it's happened it's best for the partner of the person who cheated, to not be in denial about it, irrespective of whether the partner is old or new wife.

 

I certainly don't go around introducing him as "my husband, Mr Lyon, the cheater".

 

No, I know. I didn't think you were saying that, it just prompted a thought. I don't get many...

[Silly_Girl]

No, but the person would describe him/herself as an alcoholic. Acknowledging the propensity to abuse alcohol is part of the recover, and the former drinker is always aware of this and avoid situations where they may be tempted to drink. Most of their friends might know them as a teetotaler, but there are others who remember them as alcoholics and there's nothing that can be done to erase that memory.

 

Maybe it's the same for someone who has cheated. Perhaps they remind themselves of their past behavior to avoid repeating it in the future. Again, the person may no longer cheat, but those who were impacted by or have knowledge of the behavior will probably always view him/her as a cheater. It's a consequence of the behavior, I suppose.

 

I'm not sure I agree, but not based on my experiences, necessarily, but those who have experienced infidelity in their marriage and subsequently built something stronger.... They may know that their husband once cheated, but I hope they don't consistently VIEW their life partner as a cheater.

[neveragain1]

Just curious as to whether a cheater can ever be an ex-cheater in the way an alcoholic may become an ex-alcoholic

 

there is no such thing as an x-alcoholic. an alcoholic that has gone to treatment will tell you they are still alcoholics because its a condition within them that cannot handle alcohol. They stopped drinking, but they are still alcoholics.

 

same with cheaters.

[silktricks]

What's a Christmas cracker?

 

I cheated once (a long time ago) and realized that I would never do it again. I won't, but I also am aware of the things that can set oneself up to be in a vulnerable position, so I also don't do those things. My husband cheated, and will never do so again, however, he has also changed some behavior along the way which allowed the past situation to arise.

 

I don't believe once a cheater always a cheater, nor do I think that for most people cheating is in any way related to alcoholism, but I do think that some types of behavior more easily can allow bad situations to arise than others, and so put one more at this risk of cheating.

 

But to the point - IMO when one is no longer cheating, one is no longer a cheater.

[neveragain1]

Well, there's really no such thing as an "ex-alcoholic"; the person is an alcoholic who no longer drinks. Along that vein, I guess there is no such thing as an "ex-cheater". The person is still a cheater, but chooses not to engage in infidelity anymore. The fact that you no longer cheat doesn't erase the past behavior.

 

nor does it, IMO, take away one's desire for the excitement they feel by cheating.

[Carrot2000]

I'm not sure I agree, but not based on my experiences, necessarily, but those who have experienced infidelity in their marriage and subsequently built something stronger.... They may know that their husband once cheated, but I hope they don't consistently VIEW their life partner as a cheater.

 

They may not consistently view their partner as a cheater, but they are more aware of the fact that their partner has the capacity to be unfaithful. In situations like these, I think the fWS and the fBS pay more attention to what's going on in their marriage and make an effort to avoid conditions that might lead to infidelity, such as a lack of communication. Kinda how a person who was the capacity to abuse alcohol avoid situations where they may be tempted to drink.

[Silly_Girl]

there is no such thing as an x-alcoholic. an alcoholic that has gone to treatment will tell you they are still alcoholics because its a condition within them that cannot handle alcohol. They stopped drinking, but they are still alcoholics.

 

same with cheaters.

 

Interesting. That's why I love hearing others' views.

 

Actually, my uncle is an ex-alcoholic. He abused alcohol for a long time, lost jobs and relationships etc; he drinks socially now, but doesn't abuse alcohol or suffer through drinking. Must be getting on for 25 years now.

[trinity1]

I cheated on my SOs on a couple of occasions when I was young. The last time was 27 years ago. I have been faithful since then. In fact I am a very loyal and faithful person - loyal to a fault. No way I would identify myself as a cheater. I learned by my mistakes. I paid for them dearly.

[carhill]

Based on my observations of some repeat cheaters, as well as my own experiences, I would opine that a person, once they choose to betray their primary relationship, knows intimately what that process is and is permanently in recovery from it. I know I pay far more attention to strict boundaries now than before my EA and have tested them since my separation and divorce. Prior, I never gave the circumstances a second thought. Now, there's active thinking going on about such matters. That's how I define recovery. YMMV

[fooled once]

....Not a Christmas cracker riddle, but a question based on SidLyon's comment that those who begin a new permanent relationship out of an affair are equally at risk of being the victim of cheating as those who have been cheated on and elect to reconcile. She said 'we're both married to cheaters'.

 

Just curious as to whether a cheater can ever be an ex-cheater in the way an alcoholic may become an ex-alcoholic or whether the consensus of the board is simply the old leopard/spots issue and even if someone has been faithful and true for 30, 40 or 50 years, if they once cheated they shall be spoken of as a cheater for the rest of their life.

 

How is the new relationship a "permanent" one since the marriage that the cheater came from wasn't a permanent one? I am confused.

 

Cheaters and alcoholics ??? Why the comparison?

 

I don't think there is black and white answer to when is a cheater no longer a cheat. I guess it would be when the cheater stops cheating? *shrug* no idea. I am sure people all have various answers, and like so many things, there is no RIGHT or WRONG answer .... just opinions.

[Silly_Girl]

How is the new relationship a "permanent" one since the marriage that the cheater came from wasn't a permanent one? I am confused.

 

Cheaters and alcoholics ??? Why the comparison?

 

I don't think there is black and white answer to when is a cheater no longer a cheat. I guess it would be when the cheater stops cheating? *shrug* no idea. I am sure people all have various answers, and like so many things, there is no RIGHT or WRONG answer .... just opinions.

 

Permanent? Most people when they marry INTEND for it to be permanent. Whether that bears out is a different kettle of fish. That's what I mean by permanent.

 

Undoubtedly it's subjective, loads of different views already from various who have a) cheated or b) been cheated on.

[silktricks]

nor does it, IMO, take away one's desire for the excitement they feel by cheating.

 

I don't think most people cheat for excitement, except possibly for serial cheaters.. but I don't believe most cheaters are serial cheaters, either.

[fooled once]

No, but the person would describe him/herself as an alcoholic. Acknowledging the propensity to abuse alcohol is part of the recover, and the former drinker is always aware of this and avoid situations where they may be tempted to drink. Most of their friends might know them as a teetotaler, but there are others who remember them as alcoholics and there's nothing that can be done to erase that memory.

 

Maybe it's the same for someone who has cheated. Perhaps they remind themselves of their past behavior to avoid repeating it in the future. Again, the person may no longer cheat, but those who were impacted by or have knowledge of the behavior will probably always view him/her as a cheater. It's a consequence of the behavior, I suppose.

 

My brother is a recovering alcoholic - a term HE uses and refers to himself as that. He has been sober for 22 years in April.

 

He isn't ashamed of that "title". He knows how he was prior to recovering. He knows he will always have issues with alcohol He can't "just have a beer". He is no longer an avid AA member, but if he feels the need/desire to go to a meeting, he does.

 

I think its unfair to tag a person for his or her wrong doing in the past. Normal human do make mistakes and has the ability to correct them the moment they realized they were wrong and want to redeem themselves of that wrong doing. If you want that tag to remain forever, then why should a man change for good anyway? Are you yourself free from wrongdoings?

 

There are a lot of reasons why mistake is committed. In the case of infidelity, the other party should examine yourself closely too. You could be the one who push your partner to do that.

 

I don't think anyone said they are perfect. Why does this always get thrown around? Cheating is NOT a "whoops". It is a conscious decision that is made. It isn't an accident, it isn't a uncontrollable thing.

 

And again, shots at a betrayed spouse No one can PUSH another person to be a cheater. Why do you think another person can control someone else that way? Should a wife follow her husband around 24/7? If she does, she is labeled needy or controlling. If she doesn't and trusts him, then she is blamed for his cheating Can't have it both ways.

 

Most people expect honesty from someone they married. Most people expect someone to honor promises made. Most people expect if someone can't honor a promise or a vow, that they speak up and either try to FIX the situation or DIVORCE before dropping their pants. What is so hard about that logic?

[complicatedlife]

Based on my observations of some repeat cheaters, as well as my own experiences, I would opine that a person, once they choose to betray their primary relationship, knows intimately what that process is and is permanently in recovery from it. I know I pay far more attention to strict boundaries now than before my EA and have tested them since my separation and divorce. Prior, I never gave the circumstances a second thought. Now, there's active thinking going on about such matters. That's how I define recovery. YMMV

Carhill! You ARE still around!!

 

Sorry for that tiny t/j, but I had to say that...as for the original question: I don't think people should use the word cheater to describe who they are, who they were, or who they might be in a relationship, unless they are a serial cheater. I mean, we are comparing it to alcoholics, and I don't think that's a comparison, but for arguments sake, what about people who cheat on their taxes every year, faithfully? They are lying to get something in return, and that is what many people think a person in a relationship/marriage is doing when they cheat. Wouldn't the person who fibs on their taxes be considered a "cheater", too? And, if so, why don't we call them cheaters as well?

[SidLyon]

What's a Christmas cracker?

 

..

 

Ha ha - we call them crackers here too, as we did in the UK when I lived there. Do you call them bon bons in the USA; or is that what they're called in France?

 

They are paper things that you pull on Christmas day and they go off with a bang. Inside are usually paper hats, trinkets and very corny jokes/questions.

[fooled once]

Ha ha - we call them crackers here too, as we did in the UK when I lived there. Do you call them bon bons in the USA; or is that what they're called in France?

 

They are paper things that you pull on Christmas day and they go off with a bang. Inside are usually paper hats, trinkets and very corny jokes/questions.

 

Bon Bons are chocolates (in the US). I have no idea what a Christmas Cracker is.

[Silly_Girl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_cracker

[Mme. Chaucer]

It doesn't erase it, but if someone hasn't drunk alcohol for 20 years, let's say, and most or all of their friends only know them as teetotal, it would seem odd to me if they were to be described amongst their peers, or introduced as an alcoholic.

 

I am a "recovering" alcoholic / drug addict. I have been clean and sober for 23 years. I still KNOW that I am an addict. I have to do what needs to be done for that part of me to NOT get power again.

 

In my years as an active substance abuser and a recovering one, I have NEVER experienced being introduced as one. That is a really weird concept.

 

When is a cheater no longer a cheater? IMO, when they have been fully accountable for having been A CHEATER, in all its negative connotations. Not justifying it, not romanticizing it ("all's fair in love and war, for example), not minimizing it, taking personal responsibility for it and, like I do with dangerous (to me) substances, steering clear of the slippery slopes that can take them back to cheaterville again.

 

My SO cheated on his ex wife, and it destroyed their marriage. It went like this: They had a pretty miserable marriage; it had been so for over ten years. He allowed his ego to get puffed up by the attentions of another woman (his secretary). He slept with her once. He was immediately crushed by self loathing and guilt (raised really religious, so his upbringing was working on his conscience) and felt he had to confess to his wife, which he did. She was devastated and kicked him out. He tried everything to win her back but she could not ever forgive him, and she divorced him.

 

This man spent the next 10 years living a lonely and pretty pathetic existence, in my opinion as a form of penance.

 

Truly, he and his wife had a bad marriage and they really needed to be apart. Both of them believe that at this time of their lives (their relationship is very amicable). Due to cowardice and his inability to face the idea of divorce, which he did not believe in, he "passive aggressively" f***ed his marriage over and made his wife make all the really hard moves, plus, feel the pain of betrayal and rejection.

 

He told me all of this on our first date. He had been warning me that he had something to share that might be a deal breaker for me (we met online and had quite a bit of conversation before meeting). He was pretty sure I would walk out of the restaurant in disgust.

 

He still carries a LOT of shame about it.

 

I think that this man would rather shoot himself in the head than ever go through anything remotely like that again.

 

In real life, I have experienced a lot of different aspects of cheating, and I was involved with a chronic liar/ cheater for years. That man is still cheating today.

 

I have never, in real adult life, known of a successful marriage between a cheating spouse and his / her affair partner (I think it did happen a couple of times with peers of my father's but that was a different time of history), but since I've come here to LS I understand that it can happen. Personally, I'm not sure I would be capable of trusting a man that I had seen functioning with deceit at close range.