Before going cold turkey

[mizliz]

That's a great point Mizliz. I just thought back over the 12 months PA I had with ex-MM and...er....I don;t think he ONCE asked me what I wanted.

 

He used to say things like "I would like to give you so much more than I can" which I think is a way of managing down expectations. To this I would say something like: "Don't worry, I know you can;t" and not feel like I could say what I really wanted at that point.

 

Of course since then and with the blinkers off, I realize usually the discussions about what people want from a relationship are two-way. Goes back to the point about wanting things entirely on their terms.

 

I hope our thoughts are helping you Amour, please come back and post how you are.

 

Yes and yes! It is absolutely about managing down expectations. I was fed the same lines, and also felt as though I had no right to voice my own wants/needs for the relationship. I shudder to think now, how much of myself I lost during the A - and part of my overall healing process is to discern why I permitted that to happen.

 

Given the circumstances of my ending with MM, I allowed myself three days to grieve. I literally spent three days in bed, crying, wailing, feeling sorry for myself, feeling guilty, angry and remorseful...etc. I gave myself that time because I knew with complete certainty that I was done. I needed to feel the pain, but I didn't want to allow him to waste another minute of my life (even if it was only in my mind/emotions). I was basically nursing my broken heart.

 

And, then the most amazing thing happened...I met a wonderful single man - and we exchanged phone numbers, and he told me to call him anytime... imagine that! He actually came over last night to watch a movie and I was amazed by the lack of urgency or immediacy in the air. We just relaxed and snuggled a bit - he even played with my hair (which I love ). No rushing off to bed because he had to go home, yk?

 

That's what I've ALWAYS wanted, and yet I betrayed myself for 18 months - invested in an A that undermined my own basic needs and wants. I regret that, above all.

 

There's a great book called: Women who run with the wolves that I have picked up, again. In it, the author writes: " There is a saying I translated from the Sufi long ago, a prayer, really, asking God to break one's heart:

 

'Shatter my heart so a new room can be created for a Limitless Love'".

 

That's what we all want, yes? Love without limits? We certainly deserve it.

[Flabbergaster]

Ok i've been gone a bit. I'm back. Just in the nick of time (or perhaps only slightly late) it seems.

 

Amour

I am putting my hand on top of yours. I am looking into your eyes.

I'm telling you that you are a beautiful person, with a big heart.

It's time to stop giving your love away to someone who doesn't want to love you back.

He is either a liar, or a very very emotionally damaged person who doesn't know how to love. He's either keeping you around for the sex (try being lousy in bed, see what happens?) or he is keeping you around because you validate his lack of self esteem. if it is the latter...honey, stop, because the most he can ever do is say 'thnk you.' Men like this are not capable of lovign others, they are only capable of taking from you.

 

Is manipulation pretty common by these MM? I didn't realize how much manipulation goes on.

Yes and no. Part of the manipulation in my experience (firsthand and as adviser to OW i know irl and here) is that the OW often manipulates herself. Because she wants to believe it will work out. Victory for OW is the exception not the rule, yet all OW think there will be victory and lie to themselves while hoping for it.

Now if you give this potential victim to someone who is moderately manipulative...they can sell you the brooklyn bridge, probably by telling you how it never loved them when they were a kid, sex with the bridge is nonexistent, they aren't listend to by the bridge, only you know what it's like.

 

Also called her tonight at 5:01 after he left me a message at 5:00.

RIGHT HERE this tells you what you need to know.

Male perspective: i've done this before being married. It's called a booty call. You wouldn't answer for sex, so i called the next best chance.

 

Tell his wife. You will feel better about yourself and he will finally leave you alone.

I'd like to suggest that it is too early for her to take action like this. Recovery can be separate from the debate about 'whether or not to avenge yourself by outing him?'

Amour, you probably need to get through pain before thinking of something like this. If you do this, he might use it as a guilt trip to keep you in the A longer!

 

I am sorry to disappoint you and even more sorry to disappoint myself.

Sweetie you haven't disappointed me. You are trying hard to do what is right for you, I know how hard it is, because your heart is not helping. Keep trying, and I will keep being proud of you. If you stand up every time that you fall, you finish the race on your feet.

 

I answered his phone call and then met him. He wanted to tell me that he does want to leave for me but it can't be right now.

 

Yeah, I want to be a firetruck. There is a big difference between, "wanting to leave" and "I have told her I'm leaving, my baseball cards and dirty socks are in the trunk." HUGE. I tried to avoid situations where I would tell xOW that I wanted to leave (I did) because I knew the truth was "I'm unhappy and want to leave...but i'm not leaving anytime soon."

 

I told him what I know about my friend/ his xOW and he confirmed some of what she said but told me he has never felt for anyone what he feels for me.

There's a shaggy song about what to do when your woman catches you with another woman...say "wasn't me." Sounds like that's what he's doing. Making up puppy dog stories so you'll feel sorry for him and stay.

 

His W has never really understood him and even though they have done marriage counseling for years, their emotional intimacy hasn't improved.

*slaps you to wake you up* Bull****! I know guys who used this line!! One of them wasn't even married, he just knew it was guaranteed to score line!

Stop crying!! That's not your problem, if it's true. You dont' deserve to be in constant pain, because of that!

What part of him didn't she understand? The fact that he likes to have sex with pretty girls and convince them that he *might* leave his wife? Seriously, you're feelign sorry for him because she doesn't understand that?

 

He has been searching for that in other women, and recognizes that he has been trying to find a woman to help fill a void/ heal wounds from his childhood. Hence the serial cheating.

Do you buy milk that has an expiration date of yesterday??? He just told you that he is damaged goods, and that HE WILL CHEAT ON YOU. In fact if you compared notes with your friend, you will probably find dates where he DID cheat on you with her. Make a button with his picture, and words "have you slept with him? talk to me!" and then see how many women in town he cheated on you with.

 

But he says no one has ever understood his heart like I do and he feels like he is finally home with me.

Because you're the only one that is consistently willing to validate him by saying 'it's ok, i forgive you for this too, because you're so special.' Because he thinks that you would let him get away with affairs, and hookers. That's right, hookers. Probably while with you.

 

My heart melts for this sh--. Why? Is this just PhD level manipulation of my heart? I know it is against all my better judgment to be talking to him. I know. Because now I am hooked back in. I reiterated that we can't go back to how things were. I am afraid, though, that I am losing my strength.

Your heart melts because you dont' want to lose. I would like to suggest that this guy is not worth winning.

I'm tempted to tell you to find a guy for casual sex, get to know him. This would distract you a bit.

 

Ok...next move.

You tried to stand up, he knocked you down.

It's time to stand up, again.

Same game as before...don't answer his phone call immediately. Don't respond immediately. Change your schedule, become a 'flaky chic' that can't be depended on for remembering schedules.

Then stop answering communication.

Then send him a note saying, "I'm sorry, I cannot be the person to work through your problems. This affair Please continue to seek help, please do not attempt to communicate with me further. If you one day have signed divorce papers, have someone deliver a copy to me. On that day I will consider if I will ever communicate with you again."

[20Seconds]

Ok i've been gone a bit. I'm back. Just in the nick of time (or perhaps only slightly late) it seems.

 

Amour

I am putting my hand on top of yours. I am looking into your eyes.

I'm telling you that you are a beautiful person, with a big heart.

It's time to stop giving your love away to someone who doesn't want to love you back.

He is either a liar, or a very very emotionally damaged person who doesn't know how to love. He's either keeping you around for the sex (try being lousy in bed, see what happens?) or he is keeping you around because you validate his lack of self esteem. if it is the latter...honey, stop, because the most he can ever do is say 'thnk you.' Men like this are not capable of lovign others, they are only capable of taking from you.

 

 

Yes and no. Part of the manipulation in my experience (firsthand and as adviser to OW i know irl and here) is that the OW often manipulates herself. Because she wants to believe it will work out. Victory for OW is the exception not the rule, yet all OW think there will be victory and lie to themselves while hoping for it.

Now if you give this potential victim to someone who is moderately manipulative...they can sell you the brooklyn bridge, probably by telling you how it never loved them when they were a kid, sex with the bridge is nonexistent, they aren't listend to by the bridge, only you know what it's like.

 

 

RIGHT HERE this tells you what you need to know.

Male perspective: i've done this before being married. It's called a booty call. You wouldn't answer for sex, so i called the next best chance.

 

 

I'd like to suggest that it is too early for her to take action like this. Recovery can be separate from the debate about 'whether or not to avenge yourself by outing him?'

Amour, you probably need to get through pain before thinking of something like this. If you do this, he might use it as a guilt trip to keep you in the A longer!

 

Sweetie you haven't disappointed me. You are trying hard to do what is right for you, I know how hard it is, because your heart is not helping. Keep trying, and I will keep being proud of you. If you stand up every time that you fall, you finish the race on your feet.

 

 

 

Yeah, I want to be a firetruck. There is a big difference between, "wanting to leave" and "I have told her I'm leaving, my baseball cards and dirty socks are in the trunk." HUGE. I tried to avoid situations where I would tell xOW that I wanted to leave (I did) because I knew the truth was "I'm unhappy and want to leave...but i'm not leaving anytime soon."

 

 

There's a shaggy song about what to do when your woman catches you with another woman...say "wasn't me." Sounds like that's what he's doing. Making up puppy dog stories so you'll feel sorry for him and stay.

 

 

*slaps you to wake you up* Bull****! I know guys who used this line!! One of them wasn't even married, he just knew it was guaranteed to score line!

Stop crying!! That's not your problem, if it's true. You dont' deserve to be in constant pain, because of that!

What part of him didn't she understand? The fact that he likes to have sex with pretty girls and convince them that he *might* leave his wife? Seriously, you're feelign sorry for him because she doesn't understand that?

 

 

Do you buy milk that has an expiration date of yesterday??? He just told you that he is damaged goods, and that HE WILL CHEAT ON YOU. In fact if you compared notes with your friend, you will probably find dates where he DID cheat on you with her. Make a button with his picture, and words "have you slept with him? talk to me!" and then see how many women in town he cheated on you with.

 

 

Because you're the only one that is consistently willing to validate him by saying 'it's ok, i forgive you for this too, because you're so special.' Because he thinks that you would let him get away with affairs, and hookers. That's right, hookers. Probably while with you.

 

 

Your heart melts because you dont' want to lose. I would like to suggest that this guy is not worth winning.

I'm tempted to tell you to find a guy for casual sex, get to know him. This would distract you a bit.

 

Ok...next move.

You tried to stand up, he knocked you down.

It's time to stand up, again.

Same game as before...don't answer his phone call immediately. Don't respond immediately. Change your schedule, become a 'flaky chic' that can't be depended on for remembering schedules.

Then stop answering communication.

Then send him a note saying, "I'm sorry, I cannot be the person to work through your problems. This affair Please continue to seek help, please do not attempt to communicate with me further. If you one day have signed divorce papers, have someone deliver a copy to me. On that day I will consider if I will ever communicate with you again."

 

Bravo!

 

I did the finding a guy for casual sex thing btw. It helped. It reminded me men can actually be quite nice, and honest, even though they just want something without strings.

 

Can you believe, there are men out there that can actually text you to make arrangements and don;t pull out of dates last minute when you've been to all the trouble of rearranging your life to accommodate them, and can answer their phones at any time of the day or night

 

It was fun, and distracted me, and gave me courage to end things.

[mizliz]

That's just it - for a long time, I was convinced that MM was the only man for me...Good grief, I was a dumb-dumb.

 

There are good men out there, Amour. Ones who will treat you like the beautiful, smart, and amazing sex goddess that you are - and also WANT to be with you because they see a future with you.

 

Give them a chance. Don't waste your love on an ass who doesn't deserve your attention. I know you love him - just consider your definition of love.

 

I see beautiful things for you. Let this go, honey. You have to kiss alot of frogs before you find your prince.

 

You will. Please post cuz we loves ya.

[Amour7]

Thanks again 20 seconds, Loving What Is, Flabbergaster, Miz Liz, Emme, and anyone else who is sticking by me through this drama. I've been hesitant to post because I'm not too proud of what I've been doing, but here goes it.

 

I've seen MM a couple of times. He told me he is ready to take some steps to get some space from his W. He's telling me it is time to really come to terms with if he is ready to leave his W or not, so yesterday he told her he needed some time away and he came and stayed at my place last night (he showed me email exchanges to confirm this). He says today he is telling her he will be moving downstairs (in his house) because he needs time and space. She is taking the kids out of town next week, and he says he is going to look at getting an apartment during that time.

 

He's not promising me anything; perhaps he's trying to get me to "manage down my expectations" and no, he isn't asking me much about what I want or need. If he really is going to separate from his wife, I understand, though, that he needs to figure a lot of stuff out. If he were to make promises about our future, I wouldn't trust them anyway right now. But it seems like there is more of a hope that things could move toward us being together in a relationship that I feel better about.

 

Now I know the red flags are still everywhere. Would the smart thing be to cut my loses and run? Sure. But for those of you who have been enmeshed in an intense relationship like this, when the prospects look more hopeful to give it a real shot, it is hard to let rational thought prevail.

 

You all had some really great advice, so I hope to respond to some of the things you said later today or tomorrow. Even if it looks like I'm not taking any of your great advice, I truly am listening and trying to take it to heart.

 

Thanks again for standing by me and believing in me.

[Amour7]

Yes and yes! It is absolutely about managing down expectations. I was fed the same lines, and also felt as though I had no right to voice my own wants/needs for the relationship. I shudder to think now, how much of myself I lost during the A - and part of my overall healing process is to discern why I permitted that to happen.

 

Given the circumstances of my ending with MM, I allowed myself three days to grieve. I literally spent three days in bed, crying, wailing, feeling sorry for myself, feeling guilty, angry and remorseful...etc. I gave myself that time because I knew with complete certainty that I was done. I needed to feel the pain, but I didn't want to allow him to waste another minute of my life (even if it was only in my mind/emotions). I was basically nursing my broken heart.

 

And, then the most amazing thing happened...I met a wonderful single man - and we exchanged phone numbers, and he told me to call him anytime... imagine that! He actually came over last night to watch a movie and I was amazed by the lack of urgency or immediacy in the air. We just relaxed and snuggled a bit - he even played with my hair (which I love ). No rushing off to bed because he had to go home, yk?

 

That's what I've ALWAYS wanted, and yet I betrayed myself for 18 months - invested in an A that undermined my own basic needs and wants. I regret that, above all.

 

There's a great book called: Women who run with the wolves that I have picked up, again. In it, the author writes: " There is a saying I translated from the Sufi long ago, a prayer, really, asking God to break one's heart:

 

'Shatter my heart so a new room can be created for a Limitless Love'".

 

That's what we all want, yes? Love without limits? We certainly deserve it.

 

Miz Liz, I really appreciate your insight, and I am so proud of you for bouncing back so quickly after the horrible discovery. I admire your strength. I may check that book out, too.

 

That's just it - for a long time, I was convinced that MM was the only man for me...Good grief, I was a dumb-dumb.

 

There are good men out there, Amour. Ones who will treat you like the beautiful, smart, and amazing sex goddess that you are - and also WANT to be with you because they see a future with you.

 

Give them a chance. Don't waste your love on an ass who doesn't deserve your attention. I know you love him - just consider your definition of love.

 

I see beautiful things for you. Let this go, honey. You have to kiss alot of frogs before you find your prince.

 

You will. Please post cuz we loves ya.

 

I have fallen into that trap where I don't feel like I'll find anyone to love as deeply and who understands my thoughts and feelings like MM does. In my mind, if I leave him, I risk never experiencing love again. I've been out with single ladies, I've perused online dating profiles... the prospects out there are not so hot! The thing is, this guy is so smart, so successful, one of the most attractive guys you'll ever see, great in bed, etc... no one seems to hold a candle to him even if they are available and would be able to treat me better. I'm in my mid-30s. I'm glad you can see beautiful things for me- I just really can't

[20Seconds]

Thanks again 20 seconds, Loving What Is, Flabbergaster, Miz Liz, Emme, and anyone else who is sticking by me through this drama. I've been hesitant to post because I'm not too proud of what I've been doing, but here goes it.

 

I've seen MM a couple of times. He told me he is ready to take some steps to get some space from his W. He's telling me it is time to really come to terms with if he is ready to leave his W or not, so yesterday he told her he needed some time away and he came and stayed at my place last night (he showed me email exchanges to confirm this). He says today he is telling her he will be moving downstairs (in his house) because he needs time and space. She is taking the kids out of town next week, and he says he is going to look at getting an apartment during that time.

 

He's not promising me anything; perhaps he's trying to get me to "manage down my expectations" and no, he isn't asking me much about what I want or need. If he really is going to separate from his wife, I understand, though, that he needs to figure a lot of stuff out. If he were to make promises about our future, I wouldn't trust them anyway right now. But it seems like there is more of a hope that things could move toward us being together in a relationship that I feel better about.

 

Now I know the red flags are still everywhere. Would the smart thing be to cut my loses and run? Sure. But for those of you who have been enmeshed in an intense relationship like this, when the prospects look more hopeful to give it a real shot, it is hard to let rational thought prevail.

 

You all had some really great advice, so I hope to respond to some of the things you said later today or tomorrow. Even if it looks like I'm not taking any of your great advice, I truly am listening and trying to take it to heart.

 

Thanks again for standing by me and believing in me.

 

Hi Amour I'm glad you've come back to post an update.

 

I would just say....be very careful and cautious.

 

I'm concerned he hasn;t given you a proper explanation of why he contacted your friend, the OOW, so quickly after he called you that time. Did he know that you knew her? Is there a possibility he did it on purpose knowing it would get back to you?

 

He might "be" everything you are looking for in a man on paper but some aspects of his behaviour up til now have been a bit suspect...plus of course there is the fact that he's been carrying on affairs for a long time.

 

Where did his W think he was when he stayed over with you? And the apartment thing - is his W going to know about this place he's getting? If he gets an apartment but doesn;t tell his W about it I would be very, very cautious.

 

I think that from what you said he does want to be with you but is he able to ONLY be with you?

 

I'm just thinking his track record of commitment...it's just not all that, is it? Do you really trust him?

 

It's not a great thing to go into a more serious relationship with someone you don;t trust.

 

And make sure his W knows about ALL of his plans.

 

Let us know how things are going.

[mizliz]

Thanks again 20 seconds, Loving What Is, Flabbergaster, Miz Liz, Emme, and anyone else who is sticking by me through this drama. I've been hesitant to post because I'm not too proud of what I've been doing, but here goes it.

 

I've seen MM a couple of times. He told me he is ready to take some steps to get some space from his W. He's telling me it is time to really come to terms with if he is ready to leave his W or not, so yesterday he told her he needed some time away and he came and stayed at my place last night (he showed me email exchanges to confirm this). He says today he is telling her he will be moving downstairs (in his house) because he needs time and space. She is taking the kids out of town next week, and he says he is going to look at getting an apartment during that time.

 

He's not promising me anything; perhaps he's trying to get me to "manage down my expectations" and no, he isn't asking me much about what I want or need. If he really is going to separate from his wife, I understand, though, that he needs to figure a lot of stuff out. If he were to make promises about our future, I wouldn't trust them anyway right now. But it seems like there is more of a hope that things could move toward us being together in a relationship that I feel better about.

 

Now I know the red flags are still everywhere. Would the smart thing be to cut my loses and run? Sure. But for those of you who have been enmeshed in an intense relationship like this, when the prospects look more hopeful to give it a real shot, it is hard to let rational thought prevail.

 

You all had some really great advice, so I hope to respond to some of the things you said later today or tomorrow. Even if it looks like I'm not taking any of your great advice, I truly am listening and trying to take it to heart.

 

Thanks again for standing by me and believing in me.

 

So glad you posted, Amour! And please, don't hesitate to post your truth -whatever it is. I don't think there is anyone on this thread that will judge you for your choices, so don't worry about disappointing anyone, or feel that you are letting us down in anyway, ok? Many of us have been where you are now, or are currently there, and completely understand the intensity of such circumstances.

 

This is your journey, and you will do what is right for you. Just know that we post because we care -and if you can benefit in anyway from the advice here, I am more than happy to share my thoughts and experience -without judgement or motive.

 

Once again, I want to echo 20seconds words - please, please be very careful right now. Now is the time to summon your sense of self-preservation and kick it into hyper-drive.

 

Please avoid becoming his emotional crutch. If he is in fact, serious (watch what he does, not what he says) about a separation from his wife, and you have proof of this, do not become his counselor or his shoulder to cry on during this process. It would be lovely if you would insist on a separation from him also at this point, under the guise of allowing him time to figure things out. However, I know you likely won't do that, so honey, please try and keep as much of an emotional distance as you can.

 

Armour, if you think it is painful now, think about how much pain you will go through IF, after a separation, he decides to go back home and "work on his marriage". Where will you be then? After investing more, and hoping, and being there for him? I'm not saying that will happen, but it is certainly a possibility, and one that I hope you won't gloss over given that your hopes are high, right now.

 

Keep your guard up a little, ok? Don't lose yourself now -this is a good time for you to stay busy. Just because he moves out, does not mean that you have to become available to him completely.

 

You're in my thoughts.

[mizliz]

Miz Liz, I really appreciate your insight, and I am so proud of you for bouncing back so quickly after the horrible discovery. I admire your strength. I may check that book out, too.

 

 

 

I have fallen into that trap where I don't feel like I'll find anyone to love as deeply and who understands my thoughts and feelings like MM does. In my mind, if I leave him, I risk never experiencing love again. I've been out with single ladies, I've perused online dating profiles... the prospects out there are not so hot! The thing is, this guy is so smart, so successful, one of the most attractive guys you'll ever see, great in bed, etc... no one seems to hold a candle to him even if they are available and would be able to treat me better. I'm in my mid-30s. I'm glad you can see beautiful things for me- I just really can't

 

Thank you for your kind words. And, I highly recommend the book.

 

Sweetie, you can't see the beautiful things on the horizen because you have yourself convinced that the love you share with MM is greater than the love you give yourself.

 

I understand how you feel - I have been there, truly, I have. As, I'm sure many here on this forum have, also. But, Amour, the things you are telling yourself (bolded) are simply not true. And, I say that with complete confidence. I want you to think about that, ok? Even on this forum, you have demonstrated your ability to articulate your thoughts and feelings.

 

You have a huge heart - do not think for one second that people do not recognize that. Get yourself out of that trap by any means necessary.

[Emme]

I've seen MM a couple of times. He told me he is ready to take some steps to get some space from his W. He's telling me it is time to really come to terms with if he is ready to leave his W or not, so yesterday he told her he needed some time away and he came and stayed at my place last night (he showed me email exchanges to confirm this). He says today he is telling her he will be moving downstairs (in his house) because he needs time and space. She is taking the kids out of town next week, and he says he is going to look at getting an apartment during that time.

 

Oh honey.... This is all new to me but I get have a funny feeling about this. Why are you so sure that is her email. Anyone can make up an account or he has access to her account at home. Why is he moving in the basement... why... move in with a male friend until he can find an apartment. NOT INTO YOUR HOME AT ALL! Even if he tries with all his might shut that idea down before the topic even comes up. He is not a Mr. Suzy Homemaker so I don't see what the kids being in or out of town has to do with finding an apartment. That doesn't even make sense. He can look for an apartment on his lunch break.

 

But it seems like there is more of a hope that things could move toward us being together in a relationship that I feel better about.

 

What type of relationship are you looking for... just curious? Details... being his girlfriend or future wife.

 

 

Now I know the red flags are still everywhere. Would the smart thing be to cut my loses and run? Sure. But for those of you who have been enmeshed in an intense relationship like this, when the prospects look more hopeful to give it a real shot, it is hard to let rational thought prevail.

 

I know how you feel. It's normal I guess going through the motions. I know Flabbergaster might have to shake and slap you again... but you never know...lol . I just wish you the best and the easy route... only thing is none of these circumstances are easy.

 

Even if it looks like I'm not taking any of your great advice, I truly am listening and trying to take it to heart.

 

 

I can see from reading the threads on this board that none of this is easy for anyone involved. It's going to take time. Hopefully we can all let go eventually if that's what's to happen.

[Amour7]

Ok i've been gone a bit. I'm back. Just in the nick of time (or perhaps only slightly late) it seems.

 

Amour

I am putting my hand on top of yours. I am looking into your eyes.

I'm telling you that you are a beautiful person, with a big heart.

It's time to stop giving your love away to someone who doesn't want to love you back.

He is either a liar, or a very very emotionally damaged person who doesn't know how to love. He's either keeping you around for the sex (try being lousy in bed, see what happens?) or he is keeping you around because you validate his lack of self esteem. if it is the latter...honey, stop, because the most he can ever do is say 'thnk you.' Men like this are not capable of lovign others, they are only capable of taking from you.

Flabbergaster, thanks- I feel like you're here with me and lord knows I could use a male who understands how hard this is for me! I think he both lies and is emotionally damaged, but I do like to see the best in people and know that he can be extraordinarily loving. That's what I hold onto.

 

Yes and no. Part of the manipulation in my experience (firsthand and as adviser to OW i know irl and here) is that the OW often manipulates herself. Because she wants to believe it will work out. Victory for OW is the exception not the rule, yet all OW think there will be victory and lie to themselves while hoping for it.

Now if you give this potential victim to someone who is moderately manipulative...they can sell you the brooklyn bridge, probably by telling you how it never loved them when they were a kid, sex with the bridge is nonexistent, they aren't listend to by the bridge, only you know what it's like.

I think you're right here- I am responsible for the manipulation. I shouldn't play the victim.

Sweetie you haven't disappointed me. You are trying hard to do what is right for you, I know how hard it is, because your heart is not helping. Keep trying, and I will keep being proud of you. If you stand up every time that you fall, you finish the race on your feet.

Thank you for this encouragement. It's hard to feel like I'm disappointing even more people than myself.

 

 

Yeah, I want to be a firetruck. There is a big difference between, "wanting to leave" and "I have told her I'm leaving, my baseball cards and dirty socks are in the trunk." HUGE. I tried to avoid situations where I would tell xOW that I wanted to leave (I did) because I knew the truth was "I'm unhappy and want to leave...but i'm not leaving anytime soon."

Read my post from earlier today if you get a chance. He's not on his way out the door but it seems he is making movement.

 

*slaps you to wake you up* Bull****! I know guys who used this line!! One of them wasn't even married, he just knew it was guaranteed to score line!

Stop crying!! That's not your problem, if it's true. You dont' deserve to be in constant pain, because of that!

What part of him didn't she understand? The fact that he likes to have sex with pretty girls and convince them that he *might* leave his wife? Seriously, you're feelign sorry for him because she doesn't understand that?

 

 

Do you buy milk that has an expiration date of yesterday??? He just told you that he is damaged goods, and that HE WILL CHEAT ON YOU. In fact if you compared notes with your friend, you will probably find dates where he DID cheat on you with her. Make a button with his picture, and words "have you slept with him? talk to me!" and then see how many women in town he cheated on you with.

 

 

Because you're the only one that is consistently willing to validate him by saying 'it's ok, i forgive you for this too, because you're so special.' Because he thinks that you would let him get away with affairs, and hookers. That's right, hookers. Probably while with you.

 

 

Your heart melts because you dont' want to lose. I would like to suggest that this guy is not worth winning.

You might need to keep slapping the sh** out of me with your real talk. My heart keeps getting in the way, as you suggest. If he really is moving out, I will want to give it a chance. Maybe he isn't worth winning but what if he is? After giving my heart and two years of my life to this, and then if there is finally a chance to have a go at a "real" relationship with someone I love, I don't think I can walk away from that.

 

I'm tempted to tell you to find a guy for casual sex, get to know him. This would distract you a bit.

Not a bad idea if I call an end to this or he does Until then, I'm an incredibly loyal chica and have eyes for no one else.

 

Ok...next move.

You tried to stand up, he knocked you down.

It's time to stand up, again.

Same game as before...don't answer his phone call immediately. Don't respond immediately. Change your schedule, become a 'flaky chic' that can't be depended on for remembering schedules.

Then stop answering communication.

Then send him a note saying, "I'm sorry, I cannot be the person to work through your problems. This affair Please continue to seek help, please do not attempt to communicate with me further. If you one day have signed divorce papers, have someone deliver a copy to me. On that day I will consider if I will ever communicate with you again."

I will stand up again. I like your suggestion of the same approach as before, where I am less available, less at his beckon call. I am a busy woman with a lot going on and I won't be pressured into rearranging my life to make calls and meetings work for him. This was tough before but very empowering, so I think I can do that.

[Amour7]

Hi Amour I'm glad you've come back to post an update.

 

I would just say....be very careful and cautious.

Thanks, 20 Seconds. Yes, good advice I will try hard to heed.

I'm concerned he hasn;t given you a proper explanation of why he contacted your friend, the OOW, so quickly after he called you that time. Did he know that you knew her? Is there a possibility he did it on purpose knowing it would get back to you?

I know he is good friends with the friend of mine, and they talk often. I trust my friend very much, so if she says they haven't been together for 2 years, I believe her. But I think they both rely on each other for a lot of emotional support. It doesn't surprise me too much that when he couldn't get a hold of me and I was trying to do NC, he would try to be talking to her. I know that it looks bad; like he does need a fallback option at all times, as you or someone else suggested.

He might "be" everything you are looking for in a man on paper but some aspects of his behaviour up til now have been a bit suspect...plus of course there is the fact that he's been carrying on affairs for a long time.

I know, I know... Would I ever be able to trust that he could be faithful to me for the long term? I don't think so.

Where did his W think he was when he stayed over with you? And the apartment thing - is his W going to know about this place he's getting? If he gets an apartment but doesn;t tell his W about it I would be very, very cautious.

He has not told his W about me. She has stumbled across evidence a couple times but is in complete denial. He would tell her about moving into an apartment but I doubt he would tell her about me. I appreciate your caution. I am going to try to be very cautious.

I think that from what you said he does want to be with you but is he able to ONLY be with you?

 

I'm just thinking his track record of commitment...it's just not all that, is it? Do you really trust him?

 

It's not a great thing to go into a more serious relationship with someone you don;t trust.

 

And make sure his W knows about ALL of his plans.

 

Let us know how things are going.

These are all valid concerns. I need to keep thinking about them. I tend to keep blinders on and only focus on how much I love him and how I want to believe in him and in what we share. Keep helping me remove the blinders! Thanks. Hugs.

[Amour7]

Oh honey.... This is all new to me but I get have a funny feeling about this. Why are you so sure that is her email. Anyone can make up an account or he has access to her account at home. Why is he moving in the basement... why... move in with a male friend until he can find an apartment. NOT INTO YOUR HOME AT ALL! Even if he tries with all his might shut that idea down before the topic even comes up. He is not a Mr. Suzy Homemaker so I don't see what the kids being in or out of town has to do with finding an apartment. That doesn't even make sense. He can look for an apartment on his lunch break.

Emme, thanks, I have some funny feelings, too. I am sure it is her email because it was her work account and I've seen it before. Why in the basement? He has two kids and is having a hard time reconciling leaving them. His dad left his family when he was young and their relationship really suffered. He said he called and talked to his dad just the other day and asked if ever regretted leaving and not hanging in longer; dad said no about regretting leaving but he did regret not being more involved in his children's lives after leaving. Don't worry- not interested in having him move in here! He doesn't want to anyway. He recognizes that he needs space to figure things out and it doesn't make sense to leave a M and jump into living with me. As for the apartment, I'll believe it when I see it, though. I'm skeptical. I don't think he wants to shell out the money until he knows the M is over.

 

What type of relationship are you looking for... just curious? Details... being his girlfriend or future wife.

I would want a committed relationship. I was married and it was excruciating to divorce, so I'm not eager to get into anything legal. Ideally, though, I'd want to have children and plan to grow old together. Unfortunately, he thinks he doesn't want to have any more kids, and it seems it won't be medically possible for me to conceive naturally, so I have to come to terms with not having that dream fulfilled with him or with anyone else.

 

I know how you feel. It's normal I guess going through the motions. I know Flabbergaster might have to shake and slap you again... but you never know...lol . I just wish you the best and the easy route... only thing is none of these circumstances are easy.

 

 

 

 

I can see from reading the threads on this board that none of this is easy for anyone involved. It's going to take time. Hopefully we can all let go eventually if that's what's to happen.

Thank you. If you can hang in there with me, I will appreciate it very much. I am on guard that this probably is not going to end well with him. It's just the sliver of hope now that has me veering off the course I was trying to set to move on.

[Amour7]

Amour, you can turn off the soap opera. The ladies have given you some great advice. All i'd like to add is figure out why you want to save him with your love. Isn't this what's melting your heart? Ask your friend what hw said to her when they broke up, why is she in contact with him anyway? Their breakup should shed more light. Trust her words not his.

 

Take good care of yourself.

 

Right, I can turn off the soap opera. There's something, though, or many things, that keep it turned on. I know this goes back to your point that I've got some tough work to do on my own. You are absolutely right, and I will keep going to therapy (btw, do you have a counseling background? You remind me of my therapist You make really good points about what's below the surface). I will keep reading on here, I find inspiration in Eastern spiritual texts, etc. But if some of this stuff doesn't start to help more soon, I'm not sure what I'll do.

 

Why do I want to save him with my love? Hmm... I think I have a co-dependent mentality. I will feel better about myself if I can help heal someone else. And when my vulnerable heart and his vulnerable heart meet, it feels like we're destined to help each other. That might sound silly but it's how it feels sometimes.

 

Regarding my friend, I've always known she and MM were close. I didn't know about their A, although had a suspicion, until recently. She is someone who remains close friends with former lovers; something I've not found easy to do, but she manages to do quite well. She has shed a little light on their multiple breakups. There are some similarities but she says he was never willing to even say he would leave his M, so she admits this is different than what she experienced and can understand why I'm feeling compelled to see where it goes.

 

Thank you for your continued support. It means a lot and I value your input.

[Flabbergaster]

I believe Kenny Rogers has the best advice...

"you gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em. Know when to walk away...KNOW WHEN TO RUN"

 

When i was at the point to decide between OW and BS, I knew that leaving would be an 'all or nothing' overnight decision. One day i'm there, the next i'm gone kind of decision. None of this 'move to basement to work it out.' That sounds like he's trying to save his M, and she is the one threatening an end if he doesn't behave better (emotional involvment to his family) in the M. Yup, been there as well. Wasn't entirely truthful to xOW about that situation myself; I think he's misleading you.

If a man is willing to accept 'sleeping in the other room' it means he is interested in fixing the problem with the W. If he wants out and doesn't want to spend money, he would suggest your place. Just my experience (myself and others); ymmv.

 

Very concerned that she told him "we're going to my sister's for spring break, w/o you because you don't like her / can't afford to go, then we're coming back and working this out.

The week she is gone will be spent at your place...and then he'll say "I'm gonna stay in the basement a bit longer; still trying to figure everything out, apartments all want a 2 year lease."

 

 

 

Why do I want to save him with my love? Hmm... I think I have a co-dependent mentality. I will feel better about myself if I can help heal someone else. And when my vulnerable heart and his vulnerable heart meet, it feels like we're destined to help each other. That might sound silly but it's how it feels sometimes.

Behold, the OW turning on a neon sign which says "now open, i accept personal checks and empty promises"

He's not looking to be saved, he's looking to be enabled in his thrashing around.

 

Emme, thanks, I have some funny feelings, too. I am sure it is her email because it was her work account and I've seen it before.

Printouts? Could be faked by writing in MSWord. Copy/Paste from email btwn two of his accounts,then edit the sender name.

 

He recognizes that he needs space to figure things out and it doesn't make sense to leave a M and jump into living with me.

Ok this part I like.

He's gonna be a mess, more than he is now. Give him some space, let him figure it out, then decide what you want.

Actually...now that i think about it...yes i thought of doing it this way. Because if i moved in w xOW, i wouldn't be able to bring home strippers and girls from the bar. WELCOME to the way that emo flawed men think.

 

I would want a committed relationship.

good luck, look elsewhere is my advice to my BS, to my xOW,and to you. I'm getting therapy to fix myself...is he?

 

Unfortunately, he thinks he doesn't want to have any more kids, and it seems it won't be medically possible for me to conceive naturally, so I have to come to terms with not having that dream fulfilled with him or with anyone else.

I want to scream, so you can hear that you are on the wrong road.

Your goal should be to find a man who wants kids. It won't be easy, sure...it will be easier than finding stability with this broken down fix'er'up man.

Start dating on eharmony, locally, etc and be very upfront that you want kids, and that it might be tricky. Start going to churches...single older men there are what you're looking for (not because of religion, because they want same thing).

 

 

I am on guard that this probably is not going to end well with him. It's just the sliver of hope now that has me veering off the course I was trying to set to move on.

Bail out, now. The sliver of hope isn't worth the investment you'll need to make. The amount of energy you've already wasted is irrelevant; that is sunk capital. Important thing is that from here the risk is HIGH, the cost is HIGH, the potential reward is low. This guy is gonna need years of therapy.

 

Flabbergaster, thanks- I feel like you're here with me and lord knows I could use a male who understands how hard this is for me! I think he both lies and is emotionally damaged, but I do like to see the best in people and know that he can be extraordinarily loving. That's what I hold onto.

Honey the good in him is just not good enough. Leave this puppy at the pound. Cute smile doesn't make up for the fact he's gonna pee all over your carpets, all the time.

 

I think you're right here- I am responsible for the manipulation. I shouldn't play the victim.

No you are the victim. I was trying to say that OW can be willing victims, not that they are to blame. Let me be clear: an OW who is manipulating herself is still the victim in an A, she just happens to be helping her tormentor. You are a willing victim to his active manipulation. Your focus on "best in people..." is your downfall. That's OW code for "I'm willing to accept a very firm 'maybe' from MM, in lieu of actual love." Stop being willing victim...accept nothing less than a single man who is not guaranteed to cheat on you.

 

Read my post from earlier today if you get a chance. He's not on his way out the door but it seems he is making movement.

I just don't think it's good enough. This one is too damaged, the chance of working out too low.

 

Maybe he isn't worth winning but what if he is? After giving my heart and two years of my life to this, and then if there is finally a chance to have a go at a "real" relationship with someone I love, I don't think I can walk away from that.

Are you willing to wait two more years? four more years? Five? He's not moving too fast.

 

 

Not a bad idea if I call an end to this or he does Until then, I'm an incredibly loyal chica and have eyes for no one else.

He is not loyal to you, I would be willing to bet money. Hookers and hookups, since he met you. No doubt in my mind.

 

 

I will stand up again. I like your suggestion of the same approach as before, where I am less available, less at his beckon call. I am a busy woman with a lot going on and I won't be pressured into rearranging my life to make calls and meetings work for him. This was tough before but very empowering, so I think I can do that.

Best thing I've heard. Do this now. Push him away to "find himself, without pressure from you."

Edited March 20, 2011 by Flabbergaster

[FightClub]

I think the truth is that you deserve more, Amour.

 

More than he can possibly give you at this point, so look back on the time spent and things you've loved & learned from him and keep that for yourself. Use it to enhance your life and start loving yourself more and find happiness within you.

 

Once you can really love yourself, this will all be a passing memory of transition. Let him go and do his thing, if he comes back divorced and ready to come start a real relationship with you, then you can decide if it's real and what you want.

 

The ground is to unstable and the ride is too bumpy to continue on with while he's in the midst of figuring himself out. Work on you, dear and I promise things will be much better down the road.

 

-FC

[Emme]

As for the apartment, I'll believe it when I see it, though. I'm skeptical. I don't think he wants to shell out the money until he knows the M is over.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he already has an apartment. You just don't know about it.

 

I would want a committed relationship. I was married and it was excruciating to divorce, so I'm not eager to get into anything legal. Ideally, though, I'd want to have children and plan to grow old together. Unfortunately, he thinks he doesn't want to have any more kids, and it seems it won't be medically possible for me to conceive naturally, so I have to come to terms with not having that dream fulfilled with him or with anyone else.

 

You can always adopt if he doesn't want children or you need funds to conceive. You have to be on the same page in a relationship and I can tell that he's already lived his life. You haven't begun yours. Are you willing to accept his terms if it comes to never having children?

 

 

 

The whole email thing... Who sends a possible seperation letter to their wifes work email... Think about it!

[lovinmylife]

And hello to everyone else. I have read all of your posts and wanted to respond, but these wonderful people always take the words right out of my mouth lol.

One thing did stand out to me though. I know that a lot of times the MM will lie about what really goes on in the home and what they really talk about with the W to the OW to keep her there. You mentioned that he showed you an exchange of emails about him asking about a separation. I have to wonder if he has her email password and if he wrote the emails himself and then erased them just to show you some emails. In other words, if they live in the same house she would probably confront him in person and not keep it over email. Just a thought, because I have heard of people doing that especially if they have their password. (even if he tells you he doesn't have her password.)

Just be careful about what he says he talks to the W about. He knows what he is doing. Take care of yourself.

-by the way, if this has already been discussed then I apologize.

[Amour7]

What? Not one person telling me how great that MM is making some movement? Just kidding. I know you all know better and believe me, I am trying to keep my eyes wide open on this one. Guess what? It doesn't sound like he's moved to the basement. He called today and didn't say a word about it, so I kind of blew everything off and told him about my great and busy day. I suspect he's going to tell me he wants to wait until his W is out of town, but I wasn't in the mood to entertain it.

 

A few of you sounded skeptical about the email exchange with his W. Here's what I know. He was with me when he received a reply from her work account on his blackberry; his email was short and said he needed some space and wasn't coming home that evening, and her reply was that she was frustrated with his communication (he stays over or we go out of town at least once a month, so the fact that he wasn't coming home wasn't shocking to her). I don't think there was any grand doctoring of faux emails, etc. He also didn't say, "I want to separate from you," so I know what and how little was communicated in those emails. It's quite possible he went home the next day and apologized and smoothed things over. What I do know is that I can't possibly know what's really going on there.

When i was at the point to decide between OW and BS, I knew that leaving would be an 'all or nothing' overnight decision. One day i'm there, the next i'm gone kind of decision. None of this 'move to basement to work it out.' That sounds like he's trying to save his M, and she is the one threatening an end if he doesn't behave better (emotional involvment to his family) in the M. Yup, been there as well. Wasn't entirely truthful to xOW about that situation myself; I think he's misleading you.

If a man is willing to accept 'sleeping in the other room' it means he is interested in fixing the problem with the W. If he wants out and doesn't want to spend money, he would suggest your place. Just my experience (myself and others); ymmv.

You know, I understand the suspicion about the motive for moving to the basement, but I didn't provide the whole context. When he told me he couldn't just leave right now, I suggested he spend some time in the basement. He's told me that their relationship is really about partnering to parent and that's it, so I said, ok, then live that truly. Tell her that's what it is for you and be honest about it. So, he is throwing me a bone. He said he really liked the idea, and jumped on it, and then added the own apartment thing on his own. However, I think the appeal of the idea has worn off or he never intended to do it in the first place.

 

 

The week she is gone will be spent at your place...and then he'll say "I'm gonna stay in the basement a bit longer; still trying to figure everything out, apartments all want a 2 year lease."

Yep, I can see that happening.

 

Ok this part I like.

He's gonna be a mess, more than he is now. Give him some space, let him figure it out, then decide what you want.

Actually...now that i think about it...yes i thought of doing it this way. Because if i moved in w xOW, i wouldn't be able to bring home strippers and girls from the bar. WELCOME to the way that emo flawed men think.

Thanks for your honesty and letting me into that way of thinking. I don't understand how men who love their SO's can think like this.

 

good luck, look elsewhere is my advice to my BS, to my xOW,and to you. I'm getting therapy to fix myself...is he?

Yes, he said he is making an appointment next week to see someone he saw (and liked) years ago.

 

I want to scream, so you can hear that you are on the wrong road.

Your goal should be to find a man who wants kids. It won't be easy, sure...it will be easier than finding stability with this broken down fix'er'up man.

Start dating on eharmony, locally, etc and be very upfront that you want kids, and that it might be tricky. Start going to churches...single older men there are what you're looking for (not because of religion, because they want same thing).

I just don't see that I'll be able to have all that my heart desires for my future, and I don't want to be searching for a man to be a sperm donor. I've seen enough of those marriages to know they can be pretty pathetic. I've already given up thinking I'll have it all, so I guess that is why I am willing to compromise what I want for love.

 

Best thing I've heard. Do this now. Push him away to "find himself, without pressure from you."

I think I will. Problem is that I'm thinking of all the great sex we can have next week when I'd be able to be with him every day of the week. So, in my mind one voice is telling me to just push it off and enjoy that time... And the other part is thinking how it would be really good for him to have that time all alone- although who knows if he'd stay alone, right, Flabbergaster?

[Amour7]

So glad you posted, Amour! And please, don't hesitate to post your truth -whatever it is. I don't think there is anyone on this thread that will judge you for your choices, so don't worry about disappointing anyone, or feel that you are letting us down in anyway, ok? Many of us have been where you are now, or are currently there, and completely understand the intensity of such circumstances.

 

This is your journey, and you will do what is right for you. Just know that we post because we care -and if you can benefit in anyway from the advice here, I am more than happy to share my thoughts and experience -without judgement or motive.

Thank you, thank you... Thanks for being here and for your unconditional support. (((mizliz)))

Once again, I want to echo 20seconds words - please, please be very careful right now. Now is the time to summon your sense of self-preservation and kick it into hyper-drive.

 

Please avoid becoming his emotional crutch. If he is in fact, serious (watch what he does, not what he says) about a separation from his wife, and you have proof of this, do not become his counselor or his shoulder to cry on during this process. It would be lovely if you would insist on a separation from him also at this point, under the guise of allowing him time to figure things out. However, I know you likely won't do that, so honey, please try and keep as much of an emotional distance as you can.

 

Armour, if you think it is painful now, think about how much pain you will go through IF, after a separation, he decides to go back home and "work on his marriage". Where will you be then? After investing more, and hoping, and being there for him? I'm not saying that will happen, but it is certainly a possibility, and one that I hope you won't gloss over given that your hopes are high, right now.

 

Keep your guard up a little, ok? Don't lose yourself now -this is a good time for you to stay busy. Just because he moves out, does not mean that you have to become available to him completely.

 

You're in my thoughts:).

I will try my best to keep emotional distance. I hadn't really thought about how painful it would be for him to separate and then decide to go back to work on his marriage. That is a real possibility, I'm sure, but actually, I think it is more likely that he won't end up leaving.

 

I will try to keep busy, too. I've been trying to go for a long run on the weekends, and it has really helped lift me up. The runner's high is a pretty good anti-depressant.

[lovingwhatis]

Amour, if we lived in the same city I would have asked you for coffee already. I really connect with you because you are very honest, sweet and real, this is how you come through in this forum, and that's why I feel that so many people have really been in your corner. For you to come after the breakup and share what's really going on has been inspiring. You've also shed different light on your love for MM and his character, and I can definitely see why you are giving this a new chance.

 

As for me sounding like your therapist, I will take it as a compliment, though I tend to have serious qualms with therapy, and have been against it for myself (for number of reasons). But ultimately, I have reached some of the same conclusions on my own regarding the stuff beneath the surface. For that's the only thing that could rationally "explain" the irrationality of some situations. Though I am now realizing that some things just cannot be explained, but I won't go into that now...

 

i will address one thing, your feeling that you will not find a better man, or that your dreams will not be fulfilled so that's why you feel you can settle. Your love for MM is real enough and its good that you are honoring it, and not trying to completely demonize because of the A part. I mean, yes MM has redeeming qualities, and I think the heart needs just that little to hold on to hope. I will tell you one thing about myself though, even if you stop this now in the cleanest break (this is what happened to me) it is no guarantee that you will find another love. That's the harsh truth. I stopped the A at exactly the right time, things were really as clear cut as they could be, I was honest with feelings, he didn't give me any false hope with words, we went NC and it has been NC for almost 2 years. But I have not stopped loving him, nor having this glimmer of hope in the back of my mind. That's why I haven't dated, because nothing compared, and I am not willing to settle for lesser love. This means I've been alone for two years, and that aint easy. Your fears are real enough, but this is life, life doesn't promise us anything. From an eastern perspective, the suffering just is, and it is not our job to try to escape the suffering. We can transcend it, but not through trying to get what we want. Its a completely contradictory thing.

 

But there is hope in being happy with or without a relationship. That I can tell you for sure. I am at peace for the majority of the time. And when I am not, I remind myself that is part of this thing called life, and is not for me to argue and bitch about.

 

Nice talking to you. Looking forward to talking more.

 

Right, I can turn off the soap opera. There's something, though, or many things, that keep it turned on. I know this goes back to your point that I've got some tough work to do on my own. You are absolutely right, and I will keep going to therapy (btw, do you have a counseling background? You remind me of my therapist You make really good points about what's below the surface). I will keep reading on here, I find inspiration in Eastern spiritual texts, etc. But if some of this stuff doesn't start to help more soon, I'm not sure what I'll do.

 

Why do I want to save him with my love? Hmm... I think I have a co-dependent mentality. I will feel better about myself if I can help heal someone else. And when my vulnerable heart and his vulnerable heart meet, it feels like we're destined to help each other. That might sound silly but it's how it feels sometimes.

 

Regarding my friend, I've always known she and MM were close. I didn't know about their A, although had a suspicion, until recently. She is someone who remains close friends with former lovers; something I've not found easy to do, but she manages to do quite well. She has shed a little light on their multiple breakups. There are some similarities but she says he was never willing to even say he would leave his M, so she admits this is different than what she experienced and can understand why I'm feeling compelled to see where it goes.

 

Thank you for your continued support. It means a lot and I value your input.

[MorningCoffee]

Your fears are real enough, but this is life, life doesn't promise us anything. From an eastern perspective, the suffering just is, and it is not our job to try to escape the suffering. We can transcend it, but not through trying to get what we want. Its a completely contradictory thing.

 

 

Contradictory, yes. Also mystical, mysterious, and at the same time, true. A lesson not easily learned.

[whichwayisup]

Thanks again 20 seconds, Loving What Is, Flabbergaster, Miz Liz, Emme, and anyone else who is sticking by me through this drama. I've been hesitant to post because I'm not too proud of what I've been doing, but here goes it.

 

I've seen MM a couple of times. He told me he is ready to take some steps to get some space from his W. He's telling me it is time to really come to terms with if he is ready to leave his W or not, so yesterday he told her he needed some time away and he came and stayed at my place last night (he showed me email exchanges to confirm this). He says today he is telling her he will be moving downstairs (in his house) because he needs time and space. She is taking the kids out of town next week, and he says he is going to look at getting an apartment during that time.

 

He's not promising me anything; perhaps he's trying to get me to "manage down my expectations" and no, he isn't asking me much about what I want or need. If he really is going to separate from his wife, I understand, though, that he needs to figure a lot of stuff out. If he were to make promises about our future, I wouldn't trust them anyway right now. But it seems like there is more of a hope that things could move toward us being together in a relationship that I feel better about.

 

Now I know the red flags are still everywhere. Would the smart thing be to cut my loses and run? Sure. But for those of you who have been enmeshed in an intense relationship like this, when the prospects look more hopeful to give it a real shot, it is hard to let rational thought prevail.

 

You all had some really great advice, so I hope to respond to some of the things you said later today or tomorrow. Even if it looks like I'm not taking any of your great advice, I truly am listening and trying to take it to heart.

 

Thanks again for standing by me and believing in me.

 

Just don't get sucked in. This is his marriage ending and if you become the one who consoles him during this, the one he runs to, the one he stays with, it WILL take it's toll on you. You two are on "hold" for a long long time. He has nothing to give, to make what you to share stronger. He has to be done with his old life before he can commit or even continue to grow with you.

 

Have NO expectations. don't put him first. Go on with your life. Let his actions show and prove to you that he is following through. Anything short of that, well, is CRAP.

 

I get that you need to see this through, okay, but don't lose "you" in the process. YOU count too. Your life is just as imporant as his. Your problems count too. So, for a while, get used to it being ALL about him.. Focus on your friends, family, good things in life and don't make him your number one until the timing shows you he can be.

[lovingwhatis]

Contradictory, yes. Also mystical, mysterious, and at the same time, true. A lesson not easily learned.

Yes, MC, that lesson is not easily learned. In my hubris i thought i had learned it and now im being taken down a few notches. The good thing is that in my reluctant admittance that i dont know, i am more at home with the mystery.

[Emme]

Just a thought, because I have heard of people doing that especially if they have their password. (even if he tells you he doesn't have her password.)

 

 

Thank you lovinmylife... Amour, You know how many men get busted because they can't think of a unique password that their wives can't figure out. When a women wants to hack into an account she is unstoppable, same goes vice versa. Why men always do birthdays who know! The same thing goes for the women. The red flag is it's her "WORK" account. Why would you not use a personal account??? Better yet to her face. In our world today not every thing you see is true.