Do women really have that many options?

[Sanman]

Having slogged my way through this thread, I have a few comments on the situation. I definitely agree with what Fishtaco said. However, within that, many women are ignoring a crucial fact. You have the benefit of having your choices presented to you. Even if the numbers were equal, a man has to be able to figure out that a woman would date him to be able to ask her out. A woman on the other hand is generally choosing from those already interested. Therefore, the missed opportunities created by no one initiating make up the difference between men and women. If women initiated in equal numbers as men, then things would be more equal. Of course, multi-dating may skew the numbers.

 

As for the numbers game, it is used because it works. At the moment, I have 5 women interested in dating me/getting to know me. In an unusual twist 3 of these women asked me out. This is a great rarity though and has to do with my recently reactivating a dating profile with a new location. Generally, I do the initiating. Before I slowed down to concentrate on work, I asked out 100-300 women/year and generally dated 50-60 women/year. Figure 1-2 dates a week. Out of that, many flaked at some point in the process, there was no interest in some direction after 1-2 dates, someone better came along, or other issues cropped up (usually two busy careers). Even now, one of the girls who hit me up did so a month after our first date together. Obviously a sign of low interest as she likely struck out with someone she liked better. Mutual attraction is important to me and I am looking for a relationship. It just so happens that it takes work to find the right combination of compatibility and chemistry. I have since narrowed down what I am looking for and thus can perceive future chemistry more accurately. Compatibility is still an issue as people have family and career obligations that make things not work. The best way, IMO, to find the right match is to meet as many people as possible and see what sticks.

 

At the moment none of my options are perfect. One is clearly low interest, one is too busy in law school, three seems rather boring but may get a date, four seems like a strong possibility but doesn't seem to have much in the way of career prospects, and five I have intense chemistry and mutual interests with but lives several hours away and we both have careers that allow for little time off right now. So it goes. Eventually, the odds suggest one will come along with the right chemistry, compatibility, and timing.

 

The numbers game and multi-dating allow me to have the choice.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Sanman

[Curious-One]

I am a man and i think men have it easier.

 

Only bad thing about men is that they have to grab their balls and approach girls. Even i struggle with that and many times i punk out...but if you get to the point where many man are able to approach any girl they want then you have it very very good because you will have a chance to get with the GIRL that you want.

 

Now if you are a women you see someone that you like you send out signals that might or might not get picked up. Furthermore the guy that you might be interested might not have the balls to approach you. Finally you are constantly approached by guys THAT YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED in and you have to find a polite way to let them down.

[counterman]

I reckon our options are limited to how many girls we approach and ask out. Basically, if I don't take the initiate, I have zero options. If I occasionally ask girls out, I will get dates. If I am aggressive, I will have more dates. It's a positive correlation.

 

However, in saying that, it's not as simple as if I want dates I can get them. It's been in the right frame of mind. At the moment, I am in a pretty negative state. I haven't been on a date in a while and don't really care to date at the moment.

 

I cannot speak for women but I can speak for a few of my girl friends. Many of them haven't been asked out on dates and we go to college as well where you meet plenty of guys and girls. Only the really attractive girls have had dates and/or are in relationships.

[Kamille]

Mr.Lonelyone, when you lived as a women, were you interested in a relationship or hooking up?

 

I think another big difference between what the women here consider options and the men, is that men think that we women have an option every single time we're approached; whereas I can honestly that I discount up to 90% of the approaches, simply because it'll be clear to me that 1) the guy isn't specifically interested in me or 2) is way too drunk to be taken seriously 3) is only looking to get laid and 4) is perhaps looking for an ego boost. In other words, I hardly ever consider a guy who hits on me in a bar to be an option.

 

What I consider - and it seems what most women consider - an option, is someone who's asking me out because he's interested in getting to know me, and is interested in a potential relationship. That's few and far between.

 

The fact that it is more acceptable for men to be promiscuous than women likely explains this discrepancy between what men and women consider to be real "options".

 

Guys, say what you want is a relationship. Say you limited the definition of options not too just how many women accept to date you/sleep with you, but to the amount of women who accept to date you who you actually see a future with? How many options do you then have? Now realize that your odds are actually better than women: if a woman accepts to date you, she likely already sees potential. Meanwhile, by your own admissions, a guy isn't asking me out because he feels we connect, he asked me out because I have a nice ass. Similarly, when I asked guys out, they dated me hoping to get laid, but weren't actually interested in a relationship. (I'll be honest, the guys who said no were already seeing other people - I wasn't aware of that when I asked).

 

Let me be clear, my definition of a real option isn't me being picky. If a guy shows real interest, he'll get a date. Oftentime, the way to show real interest is simply to take the time to talk to me, and asking me out on an official date, not just hoping to hit on me so I'll go home with him at closing time. It has nothing to do with having incredible "standards" and everything to do with being smart about my safety and my emotional well-being.

[Kamille]

I reckon our options are limited to how many girls we approach and ask out. Basically, if I don't take the initiate, I have zero options. If I occasionally ask girls out, I will get dates. If I am aggressive, I will have more dates. It's a positive correlation.

 

However, in saying that, it's not as simple as if I want dates I can get them. It's been in the right frame of mind. At the moment, I am in a pretty negative state. I haven't been on a date in a while and don't really care to date at the moment.

 

I cannot speak for women but I can speak for a few of my girl friends. Many of them haven't been asked out on dates and we go to college as well where you meet plenty of guys and girls. Only the really attractive girls have had dates and/or are in relationships.

 

This is an interesting and different perspective. And thank you for recognizing not every women has her pick of the litter when it comes to dating men. We don't. I know I never did. I had options and learned over the years how to create more options, but it really isn't as simple as some of the "women have so many options/get hit on all the time" discourse wouldn't have us believe.

 

Plus I have to wonder about that discourse... Really... Is it really meant to help men approach women? If so, how? If anything, it would discourage me from approaching someone, were my self-esteem the least bit sub-par. I feel that not only is it a misrepresentation of women's experiences, it also does a disservice to average guys out there, who then have to live up to some idea of the "super-confident-guy" who's able to land a woman who is much in demand.

[bac]

Do women really have that many options?

 

 

Are we confusing things when we say women have many options? Women get approached more often than men - but does that really mean we have more options? Isn't it the reverse - since men are doing most of the approaches, aren't they the ones with more options?

 

And is it even true that women get hit on all the time? Yes, I might get hit on when I go to a bar - but I don't get hit on every time I walk out the door. When I was single, months could go by before I'd get asked out on a date (I never on-line dated). I'm pretty average looking - but I have hot friends and I feel like their experiences do not differ that dramatically from mine.

 

So, women - is it true? Do you have an endless amount of options? Men - are your options really so limited?

 

IMO your options depend on you. If you take initiative and hit on quality males, you have some options. If you wait for males to hit on you, you have about zero options. People of any gender have limited options if they expect others to hit on them.

The men who hit on women all the time are not quality men. That is why they are available and they are always looking for females.

All men who have ever hit on me were hopeless for a serious relationship. Yes, women might get hit on when they go to a bar - and perhaps they might get hit on every time they walk out the door. But, the males who hit on them are so wrong for anything even for a quality ONS. IMO it is unfair to call the men as 'options' because no woman really wants them.

[Sanman]

I think the question here is option of what? Relationships, dating, sex? As I mentioned earlier, I am talking to/seeing five women at the moment, but none are likely to turn into a gf judging from this point. Do I have no options or 5 options I am not happy with?

[Mrlonelyone]

Mr.Lonelyone, when you lived as a women, were you interested in a relationship or hooking up?

 

Depended on my mood. The challenge that transgender women have is finding a man who's in it for them and not whichever is between their legs.

 

I really don't see how what I was interested in could make a difference. Men approach women based on what they, the men, are interested in.

 

When I approach someone male or female for a date I am interested in dating them. I have no idea what they are interested in.

 

As me and Carhill and a number of other men here have pointed out... all those things you listed... hair flipping, smiling, laughing etc etc don't mean that a woman wants to date a man. Lord knows I do those things talking to men and women that I have no intent of dating.

 

100% straight men talk and laugh and make eye contact with women that thy have no intention of dating. Men too are 90% of the time just being friendly.

 

Listen... every time a straight man approaches a woman at all he's taking a gamble. 90% of the time the average man is going to loose. It's really not that complicated.

 

If women approached men and did not have the option of simply being passive in this culture then things would be more even. As it stands women have the advantage of being able to assume that most men who approach them are interested, at least initially, in dating them. If anything women may rule themselves out as they speak to a man.

[GivenUp0083]

It is ten times easier for a woman to dress up all nice and sexy, go out to a bar or club, and have a 99% chance to get laid that night. Men's chances are lucky to be half that. Most guys I know that would be considered "players" are successful bringing home a girl upon attempt maybe 2 out of 10 times. My roommate is very much like this, he bring home a decent number of girls on a regular basis, but he approaches ten times more than he brings home.

 

That's what people mean by options. Men on the otherhand, can order a prostitute. Not as socially acceptable, but still carries similar risk for disease, robbery, abuse.....however they also have to account for the chance of criminal punishment while women run the risk of pregnancy (although this affects both the men and women).

 

If a mediocre looking woman wants to get laid tonight, it will happen with minimal effort. Men on the other hand do not have that option.

[Kamille]

Seriously - you guys...

 

The biggest difference between how men and women approach the question of "options" in this thread goes as follows.

 

Women think an option has "quality" on its side. We don't think getting hit on in a bar by a guy looking to hookup that night is actually that much of an option. Actually, most of us think it isn't an option at all.

 

It would be nice if you at least aknowledged that there is a difference in semantics, and that yours is not necessarily the "right one". Not saying ours is the right one either - just that this seems to me like an interesting area for a real dialogue.

 

If anything, our differing views on what constitutes an option should give you cues as to why you can expect so much rejection when cold approaching. We just don't take it seriously. And since Givenup himself consider "options" = "opportunity to get laid", while women consideer "options" = "potential for relationship", then I would say we relationship-focused people are right not to take bar-approaches seriously.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Kamille

[Mrlonelyone]

givenup

 

I can confirm that. Straight, lesbian or bisexual a woman has a much easier time finding sex if she wants it.

 

Adding another insight from a generally queer perspective.... It seems that our society now polices the sexuality of women far less than that of men. The sexual revolution freed women....but not men.

 

The best example of this is that women can pursue relationships with men or women with relatively minimal censure by our society. It is even assumed that women are fundamentally bisexual.

 

Biological males who do any of those things however are subject to violence, bullying, and even murder. LGBT females not nearly as much.

 

What we men are trying to point out in this thread to Kamille and the other women is that in certain ways men are very constrained.

 

The male gender role... "the old boys club"... isn't all cigars and brandy.

[Kamille]

And I repeat, what we women in this thread are trying to point out is this:

 

We don't think an option is the opportunity to have sex.

 

Gah. This is so frustrating. Could at least one of you guys aknowledge the difference instead of dismissing it?

[Mrlonelyone]

I was responding to given up.

 

Even if we only talk about finding a quality relationship.... A man still has to appraoch 10 women just to find one who's intersted in a date, and available for a relationship.

[fortyninethousand322]

Seriously - you guys...

 

The biggest difference between how men and women approach the question of "options" in this thread goes as follows.

 

Women think an option has "quality" on its side. We don't think getting hit on in a bar by a guy looking to hookup that night is actually that much of an option. Actually, most of us think it isn't an option at all.

 

It would be nice if you at least aknowledged that there is a difference in semantics, and that yours is not necessarily the "right one". Not saying ours is the right one either - just that this seems to me like an interesting area for a real dialogue.

 

If anything, our differing views on what constitutes an option should give you cues as to why you can expect so much rejection when cold approaching. We just don't take it seriously. And since Givenup himself consider "options" = "opportunity to get laid", while women consideer "options" = "potential for relationship", then I would say we relationship-focused people are right not to take bar-approaches seriously.

 

Someone is an option to me if there's mutual interest. Meaning I have five options if there are five people I'm interested in who are also at least somewhat interested in me. That doesn't mean I'm perfect for those five people or that they're perfect for me but that there's a chance. I don't think if there's interest that only flows one way that it can be considered an "option".

[somedude81]

What qualifies as an "option?" What do you want from it?

[carhill]

Because the parameters of the option happened to preclude desire to exercise the option does not negate the existence of the option.

 

At the moment of that option, choices exist. Using the bar pickup as an example, they include:

 

Making small talk

Flirting

Promoting and/or accepting sex talk to effect a uni- or bi-lateral ego feed

Physical contact

Sex

Rejection

 

IME, primarily being 'hit on' by married women, all these choices and the resultant option are available and on the table for both parties at the moment of contact. An interesting revelation has been, when in such a 'passive' mode, I can see the options much more clearly and can peruse them with a more pragmatic mind. That said, having lived in a man's underwear for 51 and understanding how 'options' work for males, I can see clearly that, even in a passive role, there are options in every encounter. If I choose to say 'you're married and I think this is inappropriate', I exercised one potential choice of that option. I also could just have easily accepted their sexual proposition, making a different choice of the option presented me.

 

A woman in the bar makes the same choices, perhaps substituting 'you're fugly' or 'dork' for 'you're married', but she still has the whole range of choices from 'no way' to 'eat my panties'. Within those choices and because of them lies her options. Feel free to substitute 'grocery store', 'airport', 'post office' or whatever. I can offer up anecdotes for nearly all venues, perhaps excepting bars. I don't go to bars, but did indulge my exW when married because she liked to on occasion. Met lots of married women at bars

[Eeyore79]

Attractive and popular people of either gender find it easier to date than unattractive and unpopular people of either gender. The only difference is that a hot man has to ask for dates (and will rarely be turned down) whereas a hot woman just sits back and waits to be asked. I don't think that women in general necessarily have more options though - an ugly woman is just as likely to be ignored by the opposite gender as an ugly man is.

[EasyHeart]

I tend to find these gender-bashing threads tedious.

 

Unless you're living in some place that has a strange population distribution, there are roughly the same number of men and women in the world. That means we have roughly the same amount of options. Rapidly increasing or decreasing birth rates in your birth year may have some effect (declining rates favor women, increasing rates favor men), but it's not a huge effect. That means that men and women have roughly the same number of "options".

 

Since men (esp. younger ones) are more likely to be sex-only oriented and women are more likely to be relationship oriented, it's probably more likely that women have an easier time finding NSA sex and men have an easier time finding relationships.

 

Obviously, physically attractive people (male or female) are going to have more options than less attractive people. But that's got nothing to do with gender.

 

To those of you men who are being rejected by 90% of the women you approach: You're doing it wrong!. I've never kept stats, but generally if I ask, I get a "Yes". But I'm very picky about who I ask out.

 

Women are obviously going to have more "options" in the sense that they can be fairly passive and still get asked out, while men need to make much more effort. But as several women have pointed out, the men who ask them out are not necessarily desirable. From talking to my female friends, I'm very happy I don't have to put up with unattractive people constantly hitting on me. One of my F friends is currently trying to deal with an office crush who won't back down no matter how many times she says "No". I met my current GF a few months ago when she waited on me in a restaurant. She gets hit on at least once a day, so I suppose some of you might say she has lots of "options". But she's only gone out with one customer: me. That's because the others were not options to her.

 

I've said this many times before, but the reason both sides are wrong in these gender battles is because you're using different definitions:

 

When men say "women", they mean a lingerie supermodel who worships the ground they walk on.

When men say "men", they mean themselves.

 

When women say "men", they mean the guy who play QB in college and inherited his dad's business.

When women say "women", they mean themselves.

[somedude81]

Attractive and popular people of either gender find it easier to date than unattractive and unpopular people of either gender. The only difference is that a hot man has to ask for dates (and will rarely be turned down) whereas a hot woman just sits back and waits to be asked. I don't think that women in general necessarily have more options though - an ugly woman is just as likely to be ignored by the opposite gender as an ugly man is.

Why only talk about ugly or hot?

 

The amount of ugly people is only a small percentage. Though that number goes up as people get older.

 

A woman only needs to be average to easily get dates. On the contrary a man needs to be really good looking/tall to get dates with any consistency. Personality is also a big factor. An average girl can use her personality to improve her attractiveness and can get a lot of dates if she wanted to. That's the difference between being asked out once a every two to three months and every two to three weeks.

 

An average guy better have a great personality or he ain't getting squat.

[somedude81]

Unless you're living in some place that has a strange population distribution, there are roughly the same number of men and women in the world. That means we have roughly the same amount of options.

Ugh, why do people keep saying this?

 

Just because the number of men and women may be equal, it doesn't mean that each person only gets one partner.

 

There are men out there who have a lot more than their fair share of women. For example, three girls might "belong" to one guy and they are not available for other guys. Which means that there are two guys out there whose girls were taken out of the game.

 

Guys who can get a lot of girls, usually are sleeping with a lot of girls, whether their "girlfriends" know it or not.

[GoodOnPaper]

Seriously - you guys...

 

The biggest difference between how men and women approach the question of "options" in this thread goes as follows.

 

Women think an option has "quality" on its side. We don't think getting hit on in a bar by a guy looking to hookup that night is actually that much of an option. Actually, most of us think it isn't an option at all.

 

I see your point, but you have to pass through the attraction phase to get to the relationship. As a guy, wanting a relationship -- which I always did -- isn't enough. Having a weak attraction skill set stops everything in its tracks. Very frustrating. I've read posts from women about how they would rather be rejected early than later -- that's because they, like most women, can take the attraction phase for granted. To me, early rejections were FAR worse to take -- it meant that I was ugly, nerdy, dorky, boring, etc. Later rejections were easier because I felt that I was at least given a chance -- I was more willing to accept it as an incompatibility issue.

[EasyHeart]

Why only talk about ugly or hot?

 

The amount of ugly people is only a small percentage. Though that number goes up as people get older.

 

A woman only needs to be average to easily get dates. On the contrary a man needs to be really good looking/tall to get dates with any consistency. Personality is also a big factor. An average girl can use her personality to improve her attractiveness and can get a lot of dates if she wanted to. That's the difference between being asked out once a every two to three months and every two to three weeks.

 

An average guy better have a great personality or he ain't getting squat.

That's completely wrong. You virtually never see really attractive men with average/homely women, but you see beautiful women with short, fat, bald guys all the time.

 

Men have it much easier on that front: we can do a lot to compensate for a less-than-perfect physical appearance, but women are mercilessly judged on their looks and their weight.

[Eeyore79]

A woman only needs to be average to easily get dates. On the contrary a man needs to be really good looking/tall to get dates with any consistency.

It comes down to this: Women want relationships and men want sex. When a man approaches a woman, he's interested in getting sex, and is less bothered about the quality of the woman he's approaching (hence why average women easily get dates, because men will have sex with women they'd never dream of marrying). Women are far more picky because they're considering the man as a potential relationship, not just as a sex partner (hence why they want a quality man, because they envisage committing to him).

[somedude81]

That's completely wrong. You virtually never see really attractive men with average/homely women, but you see beautiful women with short, fat, bald guys all the time.

 

Men have it much easier on that front: we can do a lot to compensate for a less-than-perfect physical appearance, but women are mercilessly judged on their looks and their weight.

What planet do you live on?

 

I never see beautiful women with short, fat, bald guys. The only possible explanation is that we are talking about completely different age groups. And even then, the guy must have a ton of cash.

 

Also, a homely girl with a hot guy is a pretty common occurrence. More often I see a couple and wonder what they heck he is doing with her.

It comes down to this: Women want relationships and men want sex. When a man approaches a woman, he's interested in getting sex, and is less bothered about the quality of the woman he's approaching (hence why average women easily get dates, because men will have sex with women they'd never dream of marrying). Women are far more picky because they're considering the man as a potential relationship, not just as a sex partner (hence why they want a quality man, because they envisage committing to him).

Every woman I have approached in the past 15 or so years, I've wanted a relationship with.

 

I think you are really stretching by saying that men who approach average girls only want sex from them.

 

Of course not all men are just after relationships as all men are not just after sex.

[Andy_K]

As far as looks go, it depends how you look at it. It's infinitely easier for a woman to lose weight & get in shape than it is for a man to get taller or regrow his hair!

 

Men are supposed to be the superficial ones, yet women are the ones doing all the rejecting of people they barely know. If it really were all about personality I would have thought it would take much longer than 30 seconds to decide someone isn't date worthy.

 

Men have far fewer options, but the options they do get tend to be much better.

 

Women have far more options, but their options are more often poor quality or 'false' (e.g feigns interest to get sex).