Hi from a 'happy OW'

[betterdeal]

I don't see anything here that can't be resolved with a paddling pool and wheelbarrow full of mud

[26pointblue]

Yes, I am here mainly for the discussion part. There are also things I need 'support' with even though overall I'm happy right now in my relationship. And things that maybe I can help other people with. I mean, people who are dating go to the dating board, people who are married go to the marriage board, etc., I am an OW & so I came to the OW forum. To me it seems there are many posters here who are neither OWs/OMs nor lending 'support' - just bashing. I find it hypocritical then to ask why I am here!

 

Neveragain you obviously have a problem with me & my choices, that's fine. I really don't care. As I've said before I hope you find the healing you need & I don't think it will come from bashing OWs but to each his own.

 

Jane I think your post is spot-on & I appreciate your input. It is really nice to meet almost all of you. Talking about my situation, its benefits & drawbacks & where I'm currently at right now, has helped me a lot [i wasn't even expecting it to, but it has! ], so I for one am glad I found [thanks to my IRL friend] this 'support & discussion' forum.

 

I'm just going to go on & talk about my current situation & ignore all the unnecessary noise. Last night MM & I had drinks & then dinner at an Italian restaurant. It was very nice. We did some talking about the current state of things. He said he was surprised when I told him that when he was separated [the first time - the second time we were NC] it was the hardest time for me, because to him it felt like he was making great movement. He said that he felt like he was on a bike saying 'look 26pointblue, no training wheels!' [ha ha!]. I said I understand that it was a big step for him & very hard to do, & I didn't mean to not be there enough for him but it was a very trying time for me because I knew he wasn't sure he wanted to get divorced. He said I was right- he really wanted to be with me but he wasn't sure he had what it took to leave his wife [he says because of the kids & wanting to keep the family together but I also think & have told him that it's also not wanting to hurt or leave his wife - which I can understand] & part of it was that he doubted that I truly wanted to be with him.

 

What a catch-22. I WAS holding back, because I didn't want to get hurt, & in retrospect I wanted the easy way out-- for him to do all the yucky work & for me to sit there & be waiting for when he was totally, cleanly, divorced. I wanted it to be like a 'normal' relationship when it clearly wasn't from the start! I know that in real life it doesn't work that way; I know now that I have to own my part in this & expect things to get ugly. But at the time, I was all over the place. We both agreed we would go back & do things differently during his separation of we could, but the past is the past. I told him I wouldn't want him to move out again unless he was sure it would proceed to divorce, that I like things this way better than the in-between separation stage because I know what's what, but that I can't do it forever & probably not for very long. He said he understands & that he wants to be with me.

 

I do believe he wants to be with me. I also know that it is very hard to leave his established family & I even understand why he may not be able to do that. I wouldn't want him to do it unless he was totally sure. Sometimes in the past I felt so guilty that I didn't even want him to do it-- I would back away out of guilt & tell him I couldn't live with myself if I helped tear apart his family. That is the kind of 'backing away' that he talks about from the separation period, & I see how it further contributed to his indecision, but it's where I was at the time. Now I am tired of fooling myself; I love him, he loves me, & if we are to be together for real then yes he will have to get divorced. Am I happy about that? Noooo. Is there any other way? Nooooo. Do I want it if he doesn't want it? Noooo. But I am well aware that we are hurting his wife & family in our current state, too, & so to me the better way for him to go about it is to make a clean 'honest' [as honest as he can be after all the deception] break. By now we have been through many d-days & so it's not as if it would come as a shock. I understand actually & completely jumping would be hard on him [& before I wanted him to just jump, whether or not I was there to catch him - I realize that was naive of me], but so is this!

 

So where I'm at now is just a holding pattern, I suppose. I enjoy having him in my life again & I love him but I think he has some big decisions to make & actions to take if we are going to be together for real. If not, I'll split. As much as I love him I can't wait on him forever.

 

Can anyone relate? I would love to hear from other current OWs or OMs. [Or prior ones.]

[Jane Deaux]

Hi 26PB,

 

I am a current M O/W.

 

But were I not married, which I am planning out in my head, I would be in the exact same position as you. Giving MM a little time to figure it out, but not letting him wait around forever. In fact I told him, when my husband and I split, there would come a time that I would also have to end things with him. I love him too much and want to be with him too much, so I know there will be a lot more pain when I am available. It is like it will highlight even more that he is happier in his family life, and that he doesn't love me enough or want me enough to leave and be with me. So when that time comes, and if chooses her for too long, I will also end things with him. But who knows, maybe he will choose me. But for now, in my situation, even though things are difficult because I DO want to be with him now, I don't have that option, so I just enjoy things the way they are and try to keep myself happy and keep my sanity in check!

[OWoman]

I do believe he wants to be with me. I also know that it is very hard to leave his established family & I even understand why he may not be able to do that. I wouldn't want him to do it unless he was totally sure. Sometimes in the past I felt so guilty that I didn't even want him to do it-- I would back away out of guilt & tell him I couldn't live with myself if I helped tear apart his family. That is the kind of 'backing away' that he talks about from the separation period, & I see how it further contributed to his indecision, but it's where I was at the time. Now I am tired of fooling myself; I love him, he loves me, & if we are to be together for real then yes he will have to get divorced. Am I happy about that? Noooo. Is there any other way? Nooooo. Do I want it if he doesn't want it? Noooo. But I am well aware that we are hurting his wife & family in our current state, too, & so to me the better way for him to go about it is to make a clean 'honest' [as honest as he can be after all the deception] break. By now we have been through many d-days & so it's not as if it would come as a shock. I understand actually & completely jumping would be hard on him [& before I wanted him to just jump, whether or not I was there to catch him - I realize that was naive of me], but so is this!

 

So where I'm at now is just a holding pattern, I suppose. I enjoy having him in my life again & I love him but I think he has some big decisions to make & actions to take if we are going to be together for real. If not, I'll split. As much as I love him I can't wait on him forever.

 

Can anyone relate? I would love to hear from other current OWs or OMs. [Or prior ones.]

 

I'm a prior one.

 

My H also came from a place of "wanting to keep the family together" for the kids, because of his own issues (his mother left his father for her OM when he was small) and because during a previous separation he'd seen his then-W fall apart, and it had affected the kids really badly and he didn't want to put them through that again.

 

But he did it properly - he took the kids to family counselling before the split (the BW refused to go) and they all prepared for the split, with the kids being very supportive. They left with him when he left and it has all worked out really well. The kids are far happier now than they were as they now have a happy family (with us) and a convenient home (with her) that they can move between as it suits them.

 

IME, MM don't leave before they are ready (or, if they do - they oscillate and sometimes go back). Your being there "to catch him" suggests he's not really ready. If he was, he'd leave, whether you were there to catch him or not. He'd leave because the costs of staying were higher than the potential risks of leaving. If he's not there yet, he may not be able to leave and stay away longer term. This is a risk you need to consider - are you prepared to act as a "soft landing" for him if he may later go back, or spend much of his time mourning what he left and wondering whether he made the right move?

[26pointblue]

Hi 26PB,

 

I am a current M O/W.

 

But were I not married, which I am planning out in my head, I would be in the exact same position as you. Giving MM a little time to figure it out, but not letting him wait around forever. In fact I told him, when my husband and I split, there would come a time that I would also have to end things with him. I love him too much and want to be with him too much, so I know there will be a lot more pain when I am available. It is like it will highlight even more that he is happier in his family life, and that he doesn't love me enough or want me enough to leave and be with me. So when that time comes, and if chooses her for too long, I will also end things with him. But who knows, maybe he will choose me. But for now, in my situation, even though things are difficult because I DO want to be with him now, I don't have that option, so I just enjoy things the way they are and try to keep myself happy and keep my sanity in check!

 

Hi Jane, thanks for sharing. It's nice to hear of another situation & it does seem pretty similar. The way I read it, you're divorcing no matter what, right? And then seeing what MM is going to do -- & in that way you will be in my same situation. Let me know if I read it wrong. Thanks again!

[26pointblue]

I'm a prior one.

 

My H also came from a place of "wanting to keep the family together" for the kids, because of his own issues (his mother left his father for her OM when he was small) and because during a previous separation he'd seen his then-W fall apart, and it had affected the kids really badly and he didn't want to put them through that again.

 

But he did it properly - he took the kids to family counselling before the split (the BW refused to go) and they all prepared for the split, with the kids being very supportive. They left with him when he left and it has all worked out really well. The kids are far happier now than they were as they now have a happy family (with us) and a convenient home (with her) that they can move between as it suits them.

 

IME, MM don't leave before they are ready (or, if they do - they oscillate and sometimes go back). Your being there "to catch him" suggests he's not really ready. If he was, he'd leave, whether you were there to catch him or not. He'd leave because the costs of staying were higher than the potential risks of leaving. If he's not there yet, he may not be able to leave and stay away longer term. This is a risk you need to consider - are you prepared to act as a "soft landing" for him if he may later go back, or spend much of his time mourning what he left and wondering whether he made the right move?

 

OWoman,

 

Thank you so much for talking to me, this is exactly what I was looking for because these are the thoughts that go on in my head & that MM & I talk about, but it's hard to be objective when we're both in the thick of things, so, nice to get another perspective.

 

Do you mean that my MM needs to be ready to leave his marriage with or without me? I've told him this & he disagrees. He says that the benefits of staying married outweigh leaving on his own. His family stays together that way. The only reason he would get divorced is to pursue a relationship with me, because he knows that obviously that's the only way for us to have a real relationship, which he wants.

 

In many ways I get his reasoning. I used to insist that he had to be okay with or without me because I didn't want that pressure of being the reason he left or the fear of him looking back & regretting leaving 'for me.' But he says it is illogical to think he wouldn't be leaving for me- when that is the exact reason he would be leaving. He doesn't want to break up the family to be alone [or break up the family at all, but it would be a natural consequence of being with me]. He also said he knows now that things might not work out between him & me but he will just have to take that risk. So he would be getting divorced to try to be in a real relationship with me, not assuming that everything is going to be great, but knowing that hopefully it will be, maybe it won't be. [i feel the same way.]

 

I have more to ask your opinion about OWoman but I have a meeting for work so I'll be back soon. Thanks so much for posting- I suppose I need more 'support' [in terms of understanding my situation & whether my thinking about it is totally crazy or makes sense to others who have BTDT] than I originally thought! So thanks thanks thanks.

[Jane Deaux]

I do think I will be getting divorced anyway. I don't think I can live like this. So unhappy. But I also understand the concept of staying, even unhappy, because of the children. But now that I have really fallen in love, I don't think I can live with someone I can barely get along with.

 

I don't know when, but right now it seems inevitable. But he does not know yet. He senses things though. And he can clearly see we do not get along. Although at times I think he just thinks thats the norm.

 

I would be comfortable with my MM leaving for me. I would understand that he would have wanted to stay to keep the kids comfortable, but until I came along and he fell in love, he was content to just live in the family mode. I think that's okay to a point.

 

I was content to live in family mode. And you know, I may be eventually leaving only because there is a small possibility that he may also leave. But I won't know until I leave. Does that make sense? If he had never come along I'd still be living my life, making do, raising my children.

[26pointblue]

I'm a prior one.

 

My H also came from a place of "wanting to keep the family together" for the kids, because of his own issues (his mother left his father for her OM when he was small) and because during a previous separation he'd seen his then-W fall apart, and it had affected the kids really badly and he didn't want to put them through that again.

 

But he did it properly - he took the kids to family counselling before the split (the BW refused to go) and they all prepared for the split, with the kids being very supportive. They left with him when he left and it has all worked out really well. The kids are far happier now than they were as they now have a happy family (with us) and a convenient home (with her) that they can move between as it suits them.

 

IME, MM don't leave before they are ready (or, if they do - they oscillate and sometimes go back). Your being there "to catch him" suggests he's not really ready. If he was, he'd leave, whether you were there to catch him or not. He'd leave because the costs of staying were higher than the potential risks of leaving. If he's not there yet, he may not be able to leave and stay away longer term. This is a risk you need to consider - are you prepared to act as a "soft landing" for him if he may later go back, or spend much of his time mourning what he left and wondering whether he made the right move?

 

Some more follow-up to your post, OWoman. Looks like my meeting got postponed so I wanted to finish my thoughts.

 

The first time my MM left, he definitely wasn't ready. I couldn't take being an OW any more so I told him I loved him but couldn't do it & to only call me if he had left. Well, he 'left', kind of. I was silly & thought that meant divorce. In retrospect it meant he was doing what it took to be with me but also not ready to divorce. He was in a sort of limboland & that was the hardest time ever for me although he apparently thinks it was great progress that I wasn't recognizing. I know he & I are in dissimilar positions but from my point of view it was hell.

 

Sometimes I think he needs more support & reassurance from me than I can possible give him. It needs to come from within, from him. I DID backtrack last time out of guilt & being unsure that he & I were going to be able to work out after all of the craziness. He felt that & took it as a sign that I wasn't strong enough to handle everything we'd have to go through to be together. Maybe he was right. I was going out of my mind back then. Now I feel like I could be strong enough & it's a matter of him being strong enough to make up his mind & really do it.

 

He also did it badly last time in terms of the kids. He was so afraid of how they would react to it & he wanted them to be okay with it when clearly no kid would be. I could tell things were a mess based on his relationship with his kids. That's part of why I told him that if he leaves again it has to be for sure & things to be clear for everyone's sake. He kept telling me he had no idea of the best way to do things for the kids. Being that I don't have kids I was at a loss as to how to help him. But I would give him practical advice such as, set a routine schedule for them to come visit you, don't give them false hope about returning home if you don't plan to, etc. The kids are a perfect example of things I just can't do for him, he needs to do on his own if he wants to go in my direction. Obviously I support him & would be there for him & do whatever he needs when it comes to his kids [they're teenagers] but I am not their parent & have no clue how they are reacting or what to do to make it easier for them & all of that.

[26pointblue]

I do think I will be getting divorced anyway. I don't think I can live like this. So unhappy. But I also understand the concept of staying, even unhappy, because of the children. But now that I have really fallen in love, I don't think I can live with someone I can barely get along with.

 

I don't know when, but right now it seems inevitable. But he does not know yet. He senses things though. And he can clearly see we do not get along. Although at times I think he just thinks thats the norm.

 

I would be comfortable with my MM leaving for me. I would understand that he would have wanted to stay to keep the kids comfortable, but until I came along and he fell in love, he was content to just live in the family mode. I think that's okay to a point.

 

I was content to live in family mode. And you know, I may be eventually leaving only because there is a small possibility that he may also leave. But I won't know until I leave. Does that make sense? If he had never come along I'd still be living my life, making do, raising my children.

 

Wow Jane, in your first bolded part you sound so much like my MM! And in your second bolded part you sound so much like me! I do understand that mode of thinking. You're just drifting along, not happy, but staying for the kids, & then you meet someone who makes everything seem so much better, & you know you can't go on like that anymore & are willing to take the risk. I so get it [if mainly from listening to my MM].

[Jane Deaux]

That's interesting that you pick up on both aspects in my responses. I completely understand where you MM is coming from and my MM. Being there for my kids makes it easier to know that while he is with her still, I trust him and how he tells me he feels, because, well, I am doing the same exact thing. At the same time, he tells me he still loves her. So I get that too. He doesn't know what he really really wants. They are still friendly, she has no idea that he is even kind of unhappy. None of that. So for him, he would also be leaving and hurting a friend that he cares about. And he is a very sensitive person. So this would hurt him tremendously. Sometimes I think what we are doing is hurting him in many ways too. That he is betraying her. That he can't give me what I want. That he is betraying his children by betraying their mother. Ect. He has a tender heart and sometimes I wish we hadn't ever gotten ourselves in this. At the same time, I can't imagine not loving him. But as far as my husband. That was over before it even started. I just loved my sons so much.

[26pointblue]

or a serving of papers and a divorce decree that gives the wife half of everything he has:cool:

 

He has no problem giving her half of everything they've worked towards together. One of his best qualities is that he is very generous, not stingy or greedy. If he does get divorced he has no intent to deprive her of any $ or property that is rightfully half hers.

 

As for your other comments- Who cares whether your bashing is worse than my being with MM? That is not the point of this forum & is totally irrelevant. That's the same as if you came over to my house and threw stones at it [because of YOUR OWN situation and anger, which I have not been involved in in the least] & said 'Which is worse - me throwing stones at your house or you sleeping with my spouse?' Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous and immature that sounds? Never mind.

 

I said I was here for discussion & I said this is a board FOR OWs. Not for angry BSs. Again . . . I am sorry for what happened to you but taking it out on me is NOT going to help you get over it. I recommend counseling if you're not in it already. You coming to a place that is for OWs & taking out your anger on me because I happen to be an OW is not going to help your own healing, sorry, but it's just not. If anything it will keep you stuck in this phase longer. So there's my advice to you - yeah I know you don't want it but since you insist on taking over my thread & making it be so obviously about what happened to you & your own situation, there it is. While you may not be with your cheating ex any more, you obviously aren't over her. Focus your energy on your own healing rather than on other peoples' situations which you feel are similar to yours, & you might have some better progress. Good luck to you & I mean that sincerely although I know you have nothing but vitriol for me.

[26pointblue]

That's interesting that you pick up on both aspects in my responses. I completely understand where you MM is coming from and my MM. Being there for my kids makes it easier to know that while he is with her still, I trust him and how he tells me he feels, because, well, I am doing the same exact thing. At the same time, he tells me he still loves her. So I get that too. He doesn't know what he really really wants. They are still friendly, she has no idea that he is even kind of unhappy. None of that. So for him, he would also be leaving and hurting a friend that he cares about. And he is a very sensitive person. So this would hurt him tremendously. Sometimes I think what we are doing is hurting him in many ways too. That he is betraying her. That he can't give me what I want. That he is betraying his children by betraying their mother. Ect. He has a tender heart and sometimes I wish we hadn't ever gotten ourselves in this. At the same time, I can't imagine not loving him. But as far as my husband. That was over before it even started. I just loved my sons so much.

 

I see. My situation is different because his wife knows about us. I think he feels bad knowing he's hurting her but feels that it's better [since she wants him to stay married to her] than hurting her by totally leaving her. I am of a different line of thought & feel that it would be better to do it as honestly & cleanly as possible instead of dragging it out like this or being indecisive. I also know that some of it is selfishness on his part- feeling that he wants the security of the marriage yet the excitement of me & being afraid to give up all that he has worked towards for me, when there is no guarantee that we'll work out. I get that part of his dilemma & that's why I feel it's his decision to make & my decision as to whether to have anything to do with him or not while he's for now decided to stay married. [Here he would say he was unsure, & then I would point out that by his actions or lack thereof he's decided to stay married for now.] At some points in the past I have chosen not to be with him - it was too painful for me - & I imagine I will arrive there again or just get tired of it & move on, but for now the benefits outweigh the negatives & I am happy to have him in my life.

 

 

We've had a lot of back & forth & up & down & I really feel like this is the last hurrah for me. I feel like there were issues left without closure in the past & things I regret & things he regrets, so if I break up with him again it will be for good, knowing I did everything I possibly could & gave him my all, & it just wasn't enough, or wasn't meant to be. And that no matter how much I miss him I must keep heading on without him because he couldn't do what it took for us to be together, which I would honestly completely understand. Whereas before I had a lot of lingering questions & regrets & felt that I couldn't move on until I had explored them. I am a very questioning, probably over-thinking, type of person & in some ways I am understanding my own answers, while in other ways I am enjoying for the first time ever just not thinking, just going with the feeling & enjoying being with him probably for the last time ever. Does this make me selfish & hand-in-the-sandish, yeah, probably. But it's where I'm at & last time I had so much guilt over his family yet I still missed him like crazy, I still wanted him in my life, & the same was true for him obviously [& he is the one with the most to lose & the big decisions to make], & so I think this is one of those times in my life where I am going with my heart & even my gut -- I FEEL that we are going to be together, & if I'm wrong, so be it, but I'm listening to it. I think I am not afraid to make a mistake this time, not afraid to take a risk. I know fully that it's a risk & that odds are against it working out but I also feel I have to really go for what I want right now, or regret it forever.

 

Sorry Jane I really rambled off your original post to me, & to get back to your situation I would say that, yes, you shouldn't stay married if you're unhappy, I don't think that is a good role model for the kids [neither is cheating, I know]. I think it takes strength to end something you know is not right but that is also very comfortable & secure, ESPECIALLY without the knowledge that your MM is going to be able to do the same & be with you. I certainly wouldn't end it for him but you make it sound like it's been over for a long time & that the affair was more of a symptom, & that you can't be happy with him with or without your MM [although you would prefer to be with your MM & willing to do what it takes]. If all of that is true then yeah I don't know why you would stay married. Go do what makes you happy & yes it will hurt your husband but better than cheating or staying in an unfulfilling relationship with him... over time he will probably realize that it is better that way too & hopefully he can find the right person for him as you can find the right person for you.

[bentnotbroken]

That's interesting that you pick up on both aspects in my responses. I completely understand where you MM is coming from and my MM. Being there for my kids makes it easier to know that while he is with her still, I trust him and how he tells me he feels, because, well, I am doing the same exact thing. At the same time, he tells me he still loves her. So I get that too. He doesn't know what he really really wants. They are still friendly, she has no idea that he is even kind of unhappy. None of that. So for him, he would also be leaving and hurting a friend that he cares about. And he is a very sensitive person. So this would hurt him tremendously. Sometimes I think what we are doing is hurting him in many ways too. That he is betraying her. That he can't give me what I want. That he is bet raying his children by betraying their mother. Ect. He has a tender heart and sometimes I wish we hadn't ever gotten ourselves in this. At the same time, I can't imagine not loving him. But as far as my husband. That was over before it even started. I just loved my sons so much.

 

All his actions while in an affair contridict what you say about his heart. What is in our hearts is what is truly expressed. His actions express contempt and disrespect of his wife, his marriage, his family and himself. Though I suppose that if all you do is nurture what selfish needs, that is what will grow the most.

[Jane Deaux]

All his actions while in an affair contridict what you say about his heart. What is in our hearts is what is truly expressed. His actions express contempt and disrespect of his wife, his marriage, his family and himself. Though I suppose that if all you do is nurture what selfish needs, that is what will grow the most.

 

 

If by contempt you mean disrespect then yes. But I would disagree if you meant it by it's other definition of hate. It just makes no sense that every person ever who has an affair MUST have hate for anything. However, disrespecting it, yes. Selfish, yes. But no, one area of selfish doesn't make your entire being and entire life selfish. I'm being selfish in regards to my husband and family, yes. But i'm not selfish when I truly help without expecting in return. And guess what. I am capable of that and I even do it. I help a lot of people because want to. If I can and they need it, then I do it. No selfish reason at all. I genuinely care for people. And so I also disagree that just because he loves two women means he can't have a tender heart. That doesn't have to be the rule. In fact, there are no rules when it comes to human nature, love, hate, ect. No governing law that says we are all the same no matter what just because our actions might resemble others. And no one person can claim that they know every heart by their actions. That just isn't possible. And if what is in our hearts is what is expressed then him loving two women IS being expressed and he says that is what is in his heart.... So I see that is what is in his heart.

 

So while I agree that both our actions in this affair are selfish, that doesn't make us bad people, uncaring people, or insensitive to the plight of what we are causing. It can still hurt. And it does.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jane Deaux

[Jane Deaux]

Sorry Jane I really rambled off your original post to me,

 

That's alright, it's your thread.

 

I understand about just being happy with what you have right now though. I get that completely. You kind of have to be if you want to get through each day. And it takes time to get through these things and finalize everything, so while that is happening you have to be content with what you can have for now. Also, I understand about giving it one more shot just to be sure. In NC before you realized that you had to see one more time if he was capable of being with just you.

 

I feel sorry for the BS. I hate that she has to know, and yet won't let it go. That has to be torture. When my exH cheated on me, it was hard to let him go. I didn't for three months. But after that I couldn't do it anymore. It took three months for me to finally be able to be strong enough to let it end. And even then there was a lot of back and forth. I missed him terribly. Not as a husband, but just having him in my life. That was hard letting that go completely.

 

I know, i know. Now I'm doing it. I'm working on it though. Imma figure something out, as I'm sure your MM is trying to sort out his emotions. It's just very hard to let someone go that you love when you know it's hurting them and you will lose someone you care about. Selfish yes, but still hard.

[26pointblue]

Jane- I'm glad that you understand where I'm coming from. I understand where you're at as well.

 

I feel bad for his wife but at one point I was thinking so much about her that I wasn't happy. I stepped away from him so that I wouldn't be a homewrecker & such, but, I missed him, & there he was trying everything to get back with me. I'm not 'wrecking' his home; he is. I'm not saying I have no responsibility, I'm saying it's what I want & yes I'm selfish but I have sure suffered because of it. I have given up on trying to understand his wife because I never will. I can't even say I understand myself right now, or him. If life were easy then we'd all be a bunch of turtles. I know that he loves me by the way that he treats me, the way that he looks at me & does everything for me.The funny thing is that people who are on her side in the OW forum say things like, he should let her go so she can find happiness, she should kick him to the curb & take her half, etc... & I'm like, I agree. But she chooses to stay with him just like I do. If this were a forum for BS people could tell her what they think she should do. But she isn't here, I am & this is how I feel & I'm tired of trying to kill the feelings. I realized that that's impossible. I'm accepting them for what they are. I am enjoying the good times & if he doesn't leave then I will leave him, out of necessity & not because I want to or because I think I can make the feelings I have for him disappear, but because I will have to move on. I will keep the feelings but know that there is something better out there for me. That is how I feel & I'm not apologizing for my feelings no matter who might feel better if I do. Right now I am reaping all the benefits & as long as I keep my eyes open I don't have any of the downfalls. It is the best place I've been in since I met him [except for maybe in the beginning but I was rather delusional].

 

For the record I agree with you about your MM loving both you & his wife. Everyone is selfish sometimes. Those that pretend not to be are just liars. I think that affairs just hit such a very painful spot that people - especially those that have been hurt by them - tend to think they're the worst possible thing ever & that anyone who has one or participates in one is inherently evil. That is obviously not true. I think those people are just blinded by their own pain, which is understandable. Yes affairs are selfish & hurtful but they are unfortunately a fact of life. I think it's interesting that you experienced being hurt by one & you can still understand the different factors that are at work.

[bentnotbroken]

If by contempt you mean disrespect then yes. But I would disagree if you meant it by it's other definition of hate. It just makes no sense that every person ever who has an affair MUST have hate for anything. However, disrespecting it, yes. Selfish, yes. But no, one area of selfish doesn't make your entire being and entire life selfish. I'm being selfish in regards to my husband and family, yes. But i'm not selfish when I truly help without expecting in return. And guess what. I am capable of that and I even do it. I help a lot of people because want to. If I can and they need it, then I do it. No selfish reason at all. I genuinely care for people. And so I also disagree that just because he loves two women means he can't have a tender heart. That doesn't have to be the rule. In fact, there are no rules when it comes to human nature, love, hate, ect. No governing law that says we are all the same no matter what just because our actions might resemble others. And no one person can claim that they know every heart by their actions. That just isn't possible. And if what is in our hearts is what is expressed then him loving two women IS being expressed and he says that is what is in his heart.... So I see that is what is in his heart.

 

So while I agree that both our actions in this affair are selfish, that doesn't make us bad people, uncaring people, or insensitive to the plight of what we are causing. It can still hurt. And it does.

 

 

I never mentioned the word hate...at all. I don't claim to know every heart, but as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words. Most of our actions do. He is loving himself, more than he knows how to love anyone, much less the one he is lying to. His heart might love you, but loving you shouldn't require him to lie and disrespect someone else. The funny thing about causing pain...unless it is enough to stop the action, it can't be that big of a deal....good people or not.

[bentnotbroken]

Jane- I'm glad that you understand where I'm coming from. I understand where you're at as well.

 

I feel bad for his wife but at one point I was thinking so much about her that I wasn't happy. I stepped away from him so that I wouldn't be a homewrecker & such, but, I missed him, & there he was trying everything to get back with me. I'm not 'wrecking' his home; he is. I'm not saying I have no responsibility, I'm saying it's what I want & yes I'm selfish but I have sure suffered because of it. I have given up on trying to understand his wife because I never will. I can't even say I understand myself right now, or him. If life were easy then we'd all be a bunch of turtles. I know that he loves me by the way that he treats me, the way that he looks at me & does everything for me.The funny thing is that people who are on her side in the OW forum say things like, he should let her go so she can find happiness, she should kick him to the curb & take her half, etc... & I'm like, I agree. But she chooses to stay with him just like I do. If this were a forum for BS people could tell her what they think she should do. But she isn't here, I am & this is how I feel & I'm tired of trying to kill the feelings. I realized that that's impossible. I'm accepting them for what they are. I am enjoying the good times & if he doesn't leave then I will leave him, out of necessity & not because I want to or because I think I can make the feelings I have for him disappear, but because I will have to move on. I will keep the feelings but know that there is something better out there for me. That is how I feel & I'm not apologizing for my feelings no matter who might feel better if I do. Right now I am reaping all the benefits & as long as I keep my eyes open I don't have any of the downfalls. It is the best place I've been in since I met him [except for maybe in the beginning but I was rather delusional].

 

For the record I agree with you about your MM loving both you & his wife. Everyone is selfish sometimes. Those that pretend not to be are just liars. I think that affairs just hit such a very painful spot that people - especially those that have been hurt by them - tend to think they're the worst possible thing ever & that anyone who has one or participates in one is inherently evil. That is obviously not true. I think those people are just blinded by their own pain, which is understandable. Yes affairs are selfish & hurtful but they are unfortunately a fact of life. I think it's interesting that you experienced being hurt by one & you can still understand the different factors that are at work.

 

 

Not only do I not pretend to be unselfish( I want the last piece of chocolate cheesecake for myself...I don't want to be bothered with my kids and their friends some days) I don't think all people involved in affairs are evil. But I do believe their actions are destructive and it usually doesn't matter how destructive as long as "love is the excuse".

 

For the BS who got a STD(incurable or curable), watched their child emotionally self destruct, committed suicide, killed the WS or AP...it was the worst possible thing. So while in your mind it "may not" be the worst thing...for a lot of people who were on the receiving end of that destined love...it was indeed pretty bad. Affairs have been around since biblical times and I am sure they will be around in end times...makes them a fact of life sure...but so are a lot of harsh things that make the world a pretty nasty place for some people.

[Tayla]

Bentnotbroken- I get your fair minded thoughts and the interjections on how outside looking in perspective really is. The person you are addressing though is on the inside, and we sometimes as painful as that maybe deserve to hear them out .

I cannot though make sense of this matter from the OW & her mates side since the bottom line and the only FACT I can confirm is: Hurt is going to happen and is happening, yet the lovebirds cast that all to wind all in the name of their "concept" of love. I sincerely beleive that its not my place to judge the person (whether they consider themselves giving, loving or not a bad person, thats on them to decide). A FACT of life that I learned that is beyond this is: Love does not hurt harm or disrespect. All of which are some elements in an affair, harm,hurt and disrespect . Three's a crowd for a reason....It boils down to, which of the three falls first from the two seater that is gearing into a wall.....

[26pointblue]

Bent: I understand what you're saying. I think there are also people who experienced an affair & came out stronger on the other end. I have always known that cheating can happen & feel that if someone cheats on me, it's not the right relationship for me. I understand it's different with children involved but I also think parents do bad things to each other that affect their children more than cheating or leaving for an AP. I guess I just see it as a fact of life & maybe that means I'm cynical but it's my view on things. Perhaps many people aren't meant to be monogamous? I'm not trying to excuse it, I guess it's just one of those things I wouldn't understand unless it happened to me. But then there are people it's happened to who are okay, or think things turned out for the best, or who even go on to cheat themselves. As well as people who just accept it, look the other way, retaliate by cheating themselves... I guess there are just so many types of people & reactions & views. So I guess to be honest I don't understand the pain that would cause someone to be devastated by it forever or commit suicide etc., although I do try. I'm just being honest. I appreciate your response & input. :-)

[Jane Deaux]

I think love can be all those things. I've never seen a perfect relationship. I've never seen a relationship where love didn't hurt at some point. Even if in a smaller way than an affair. At some point your love for someone may cause you or someone else pain. It happens all the time.

 

Bent, I know you didn't mention hate. I was just making sure that wasn't the intended definition of the word contempt. I'm happy that it wasn't. I just wanted to be sure.

[woinlove]

It appears to be fairly common for people involved in infidelity to rationalize that most people behave poorly, aren't meant to be monogamous, things just happen, yada, yada. As if no choices are made. Assuming they are functioning adults, people are capable of making decisions, choices, taking actions.

 

I don't like monogamy myself, so I chose to be in an open marriage. I don't like to deceive people I love and share my life with, so I don't. I think most people are happier when they realize the control they have over their own life and chose to live the way they want to. If people want to lie and deceive, or encourage others to, in order to get what you want, so be it. But why not simply own it? Particularly if you say you are happy.

[26pointblue]

It appears to be fairly common for people involved in infidelity to rationalize that most people behave poorly, aren't meant to be monogamous, things just happen, yada, yada. As if no choices are made. Assuming they are functioning adults, people are capable of making decisions, choices, taking actions.

 

I don't like monogamy myself, so I chose to be in an open marriage. I don't like to deceive people I love and share my life with, so I don't. I think most people are happier when they realize the control they have over their own life and chose to live the way they want to. If people want to lie and deceive, or encourage others to, in order to get what you want, so be it. But why not simply own it? Particularly if you say you are happy.

 

woinlove I don't know if you meant this post towards me or towards my MM. In the event that you meant it for me, for the record . . . I am not deceiving the person I love. I am not lying. I would not want an open relationship because I only want to be with one person. Yes in the past I've dated other guys but MM has known about it -- I am very open & honest with him & I only date because I need & want to eventually move on from him since he is married, if he doesn't divorce. I do not lie to MM at all ever because I love him. [i've suggested we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, but he has trouble following that & starts to ask me for details about other guys to the point of torturing himself, & still I don't lie to him or even withhold info. I might just say "you really don't want to be talking about this" but that's it. And I would give up dating other guys in a second if MM got divorced because he's the one I truly love. I would never want to be with another guy, either openly or deceptively. I just wanted to make that very very clear.]

 

Nor do I encourage MM to lie. I encourage him to make a decision & tell both his wife & me what it is. So what according to you am I supposed to be 'owning'?

[26pointblue]

Also, woinlove, I wasn't saying I'm not making any choices. I think I clearly said I am making the decision to be with him for now even though it's a less than ideal situation for me. I said life is complicated & stuff happens. No where did I say people don't choose for those things to happen.

[Jane Deaux]

Also, woinlove, I wasn't saying I'm not making any choices. I think I clearly said I am making the decision to be with him for now even though it's a less than ideal situation for me. I said life is complicated & stuff happens. No where did I say people don't choose for those things to happen.

 

 

I also do not deny any wrongdoing, or choice that I made. I have stated in my thread that I actually made a clear decision to go through with it. I did fall in love when I didn't intend to. But that first night, yeah, I knew what I was doing, and I knew it was wrong. I've never lied to myself or anyone else on here about making a conscious decision to go forth and THEN also lie about it. Lying is obviously a decision, and a calculated one. And I did and am doing it. I am not proud of it. I'm not on this board to cheer myself on either. Just setting the record straight that neither me or my MM say we just "happened". We both wanted it and did it. Then we fell in love and we continue to make the choice, even sometimes when we say we shouldn't, but then we do stay together. A very thought out choice I might add. Not one taken lightly by any means. And lots of decisions being made as a result.