Hi from a 'happy OW'

[mizliz]

I also do not deny any wrongdoing, or choice that I made. I have stated in my thread that I actually made a clear decision to go through with it. I did fall in love when I didn't intend to. But that first night, yeah, I knew what I was doing, and I knew it was wrong. I've never lied to myself or anyone else on here about making a conscious decision to go forth and THEN also lie about it. Lying is obviously a decision, and a calculated one. And I did and am doing it. I am not proud of it. I'm not on this board to cheer myself on either. Just setting the record straight that neither me or my MM say we just "happened". We both wanted it and did it. Then we fell in love and we continue to make the choice, even sometimes when we say we shouldn't, but then we do stay together. A very thought out choice I might add. Not one taken lightly by any means. And lots of decisions being made as a result.

 

With all due respect, Jane, I question the logic behind staying together as a "very well thought out choice". This is not at all meant to bash your choices, or imply anything; just to provide another perspective from a fOw

 

Let me explain my thinking: When I met MM, he was married with no children. I was very clear with him that I would not have continued the A if he was a father (silly to think that it was ok to have an A, anyway, but that was a boundary for me). In other words, I rationalized the attraction and subsequent A, by telling myself that I was behaving within my ethics and my sense of morality. That this was HIS marriage, that I had no accountability to his wife, that people should be free to love whomever they wish...etc

 

Fast-forward to present day and my crash-course in morals and ethics. He had lied to me about his wife's pregnancy. Why? Because he knew I would have cut my losses and run. I was angry and felt betrayed. Why? Because, he took away my right to CHOOSE how to conduct my life. He deceived me and took away my autonomy. And, yk what? That's exactly what we were doing to his wife. My choice to be with him during the A was "wrong" because I was denying accountability in the deception of another human being in order to fulfill my own needs.

 

If we are dishonest with people regarding our actions, we are simply using them as a means to an end - the end being our purposes. Even if our purposes are loving in intent, we cannot rationalize our choices as "well thought out" if they include undermining the dignity of someone else.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Jane Deaux]

"very well thought out choice"....

"well thought out"

 

No disrespect taken. I value all advice given. But, I certainly do not claim it's well thought out. Just very thought out and I'm still very confused. I do not in any way like deceiving either spouse. But yes, everyday I make that choice, and so does he. But I'm still doing a lot of thinking. And trying to decide where I'm going to go with this. But I totally understand what you are saying. And now that's on my mind too. I've got some more thinking to do....

[Minnie09]

26pointblue, I'm always reluctant to believe a cheater. Like, when he tells you his W knows about you, do you actually know this is true? If she already knows and he claims that it's you who he loves, it should actually be quite simple for him to tell the W - who's already hurt - that he's leaving her for you. Why isn't he doing that? In a situation like that, where the W is aware of an ongoing A, it would probably be less difficult for the WS to end the M, rather than stay in a painful M. The fact that he chooses to stay means that he must be telling her something that's soothing/convincing to her. Or that she doesn't know anything.

 

The way you describe your R with him (W knows, he stays,...) makes me think that the ideal R for you is an A and not a committed R with a single, divorced man. And that's ok. But you still say you would want him in an exclusive R with you, if he should get divorced. Why? His actions show that he's either not ready/willing to leave, although the W already knows, or that he's not being honest with you (about her knowing/not knowing, etc.). Would you really want to risk a committed R with someone like that? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just really curious.

[26pointblue]

No disrespect taken. I value all advice given. But, I certainly do not claim it's well thought out. Just very thought out and I'm still very confused. I do not in any way like deceiving either spouse. But yes, everyday I make that choice, and so does he. But I'm still doing a lot of thinking. And trying to decide where I'm going to go with this. But I totally understand what you are saying. And now that's on my mind too. I've got some more thinking to do....

 

I can so relate to what you're saying, Jane. I have thought about my situation so much! I tend to over-think & over-analyze all the time anyway, & then with this confusing situation, I can get muddled in my thoughts all day long. That's why for the first time I decided to just go with it. Yes I know the propensity to get hurt is huge. [MizLiz I am so sorry to read about your situation. ] Yes I know that the most clear-cut thing to do [which I've done in the past] is to say, 'this isn't right, logic & my morals say don't do it, so I'm not.' But that doesn't answer the question of my heart. It still wants him, wants this, no matter what my head says. I feel like I've alternated between listening to each of them.

 

MM & I also talk about it ad nauseum. We both think & think & come to no definite action, although I'm obviously aware it can't stay this way forever. Last night MM & I had a really nice date night. We went to dinner, a movie, drinks... it was great. We had a long talk about how it can't go on like this for long. I'm no good at sharing him & he's no good at sharing me. Even if we tried to think of it as just an affair & we see each other when we can & accept that each other has our own life separate & apart from each other, we can't really do that, it tears us apart inside & what we have is so all-consuming. We see each other every single day unless one of us is out of town without the other. We talk constantly. It just can't stay like this without something giving.

 

He talked about all that we will have to go through if we really get together for real & asked me if I'm sure I can handle it. I know it would be hard. Of course it would be easier to start over with someone else, but I'm not madly in love with someone else! Looking back I see that I doubted us more than he did- mostly out of self-protection & my fear of getting hurt & my guilt. He has never, despite multiple D-Days, been the one to break us up. I have broken us up multiple times & he has had varying reactions - sometimes pleading to stay with me & ignoring my requests for NC, sometimes doing whatever it took to stay with me & making movement, except actually filing for divorce, & the last time, complying because he realized it was killing us both -- he even seemed relieved, & he stuck to NC consistently for the first time ever, until I broke it. But he has never been the one to initiate NC & has always been glad when we got back together. I guess I was always afraid that if I didn't end things, he would, & things often felt so hard that I needed release. Yet always I would miss him, think about him, love him. I see no end for us except for me to tell him I just can't do this anymore, despite my love for him, & to stick to NC this time. That would be the final blow & I'm not ready to do it yet; I want to find out what happens. I do realize this means I could get hurt. But for the first time I am willing to take that risk. That's why I feel like I'm a 'happy' OW. I don't mean that I'm happy with every aspect of the situation or that I don't want more or that it isn't without its hurts. But I mean I want & enjoy what we have too much to give it up right now. This is probably twisted but I'm enjoying this time because I know that if he does make the jump then things are going to get very different & hard, & if he doesn't make the jump then we will be over for good & at least I can look back at the good times & know that I gave it my all, which honestly, I had never really done before, out of my desire to not get hurt. Yet I was miserable thinking of all the 'what ifs' & possible outcomes & dwelling on the negatives. Now I focus on the positives & I do still think about the what ifs & negatives but with the knowledge that I know what it's like to not be with him, I know why I'm doing this, & I am choosing this. While there's more potential to get hurt, it also feels better, more empowering somehow. I don't know if you know what I mean but it's where I'm at.

[26pointblue]

26pointblue, I'm always reluctant to believe a cheater. Like, when he tells you his W knows about you, do you actually know this is true? If she already knows and he claims that it's you who he loves, it should actually be quite simple for him to tell the W - who's already hurt - that he's leaving her for you. Why isn't he doing that? In a situation like that, where the W is aware of an ongoing A, it would probably be less difficult for the WS to end the M, rather than stay in a painful M. The fact that he chooses to stay means that he must be telling her something that's soothing/convincing to her. Or that she doesn't know anything.

 

The way you describe your R with him (W knows, he stays,...) makes me think that the ideal R for you is an A and not a committed R with a single, divorced man. And that's ok. But you still say you would want him in an exclusive R with you, if he should get divorced. Why? His actions show that he's either not ready/willing to leave, although the W already knows, or that he's not being honest with you (about her knowing/not knowing, etc.). Would you really want to risk a committed R with someone like that? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just really curious.

 

Hi Minnie. I see what you mean about me wanting it to stay an A - in the past I've felt exactly that way [at least part of me], out of not wanting to get hurt, not knowing if I could trust him, not wanting to help him break up his family, etc. - and he always sensed that & was thus reluctant to leave. I was all over the place before - not sure I even wanted him to leave or that I could deal with the fall-out, but getting upset with him for not leaving fast enough, etc.

 

Ideally, yes, I would just savor the good parts & be happy with it being an affair & not want anything else. I can't say I haven't told myself I could do that, or tried to do that, in the past, even the very recent past. But the problem is that I love him & that makes it difficult to not want more. So my way to balance it at least for now is to accept it for what it is & enjoy the good times but realize I need to find a way to end it for good if it doesn't become a full-time relationship, and to admit for the first time ever that what I really truly want is a full-time relationship, & that I'm willing to do what it takes to have that if possible.

 

I know that his wife knows about me because she has contacted me quite a few times & called me every name in the book [deservedly so]. Whenever it has happened except for the last time, I freaked out & felt so much guilt & fear. The first time, which was early on, before he even moved out the first time, he asked me if I wanted to be with him for real, & said he would leave her, & I said NO! I felt so all over the place & I didn't want to tell him to leave for me & then not be able to handle the fall-out, & he know that he left for nothing. I wasn't strong enough to handle it! I broke things off with him but we started up again. This pattern repeated. I think he has doubted my love for him & with good reason - I was afraid to really go for it, out of fear & guilt. I wanted none of the responsibility... I wanted him to get divorced on his own & not because of me, & just do all that he needed to do to be with me, without involving me. I know now that that was a silly way of thinking because of course he would be leaving for me.

 

The way that things have gone down, & knowing him as friends before the affair, I feel that he wasn't happy & was looking for a way out but he is & was scared to give up everything he has known for so long & would only do it if he thought something better or maybe new was waiting for him on the other side, or, rather, helping him through it. I think that MM, like many people, including myself, is weak in some ways & that is one of them - he is afraid to leave on his own, but being with me gave him the motivation to leave, yet I kept freaking out & running away, so he has stayed put. At the same time I don't feel like he'd use me as a landing strip & then move on. I feel that he deeply loves me &, as strange as it sounds, is in general a monogamous person but just can't leave this situation before he has another lined up, I guess kind of like when someone wants to quit a job, or move away etc., it makes them feel better to know that a new plan is in place before they make the change, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are job-hoppers or nomads etc. [i don't know if this is a good analogy, just trying to explain how I feel about his reasonings & personality, knowing what I know of him. I also know that he promised to be married forever & that there is the possibility he could eventually become unhappy with me & leave if he had the right replacement lined up . . . I know all of this in my head but in the thick of things, with the love that I feel for him & feel back from him, I feel that it's a different situation & these things happen & I can't live my life out of fear that it would happen again. I also don't necessarily believe in marriage for life . . . I feel that if someone is irreconciably unfulfilled in the relationship or finds someone else, then that relationship is over & both people should move on. I think having kids complicates my theory but I don't have any, so, this is pretty much how I feel about the whole relationship & 'marriage' concept.]

 

Sorry to ramble off topic. To get back on track, I feel that he wants to be with me for real, but to do that he has to give up everything he has had in his past, & he wants to feel that I'm really there for him & can go through this with him. In the past, I so wasn't able to do that. Now, I feel that I could. It's the first time I've felt like this & he senses it. This last time his wife called me I didn't get wretched with guilt like the prior times, & cut things off with him, & I don't know why. I guess because I have decided to own my choices & not make them about what he does or doesn't do or should do or shouldn't do, or what she is doing or why, etc. I think his wife thinks that if she calls me up I will back off for awhile... that has been my MO in the past... & this time I am not making the decision of what I do based on her. When I think about how she must feel or read BS stories online etc. I do feel very bad for her & guilty, but I suppose because of my inability to stay away from him [& vice versa] & very strong feelings for him I've come to the point where I'm owning that it is what it is. If we are to be together there will be guilt & fall-out. What other choice do we have? I keep running away to no avail! This time I am trying for what I want despite the guilt & fear & if it doesn't work out I feel I will be able to move on knowing that I tried. Having this mindset eases the guilt & fear & I hope it will ease the pain of moving on in the future if it comes to that.

 

Thank you for your questions, I know you mean no harm & it helps me to think about all of this & be honest with myself. My biggest flaw in all of this is that I wasn't being honest with myself & I was trying to put a lot onto MM. Now I am just trying to own my feelings & my actions. Another of my issues is over-thinking everything & being paralyzed with thoughts instead of actions, or flip-flopping back & forth in my actions, & right now I am going with the feeling of love & basing my actions on that.