Why do you religious people feel such a strong need...

[TaraMaiden]

I agree, but it's not always so simple.

 

What happens when those beliefs themselves are harmful or promote harm?

 

Beliefs neither harm, nor promote harm.

People interpret them and perpetuate them as such, but it's the people who are harmful.

Not the Beliefs.

 

What happens when you have enough people who believe that a chocolate teapot orbits the earth that they force public schools to teach everyone that it's an irrefutable fact?

 

Then there's something wrong with the Central Admin, that allows such teachings to become widespread.

[Ross PK]

Judging by your posts, I would hardly call your life "free, happy, and fulfilling" so who are you to assert that a non-religous life equates to such when yours apparently doesn't?

 

A happy person certainly wouldn't feel the need to go out of his way to create this thread.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

My life would be way way less happy, free, and fulfilling if I was religious. I'm sure most religous people's lives would be more happy, free and fulfilling if they weren't religious.

 

My crappy life has nothing to do with this.

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by Explorer Judging by your posts, I would hardly call your life "free, happy, and fulfilling" so who are you to assert that a non-religous life equates to such when yours apparently doesn't?

 

A happy person certainly wouldn't feel the need to go out of his way to create this thread.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

My life would be way way less happy, free, and fulfilling if I was religious. I'm sure most religous people's lives would be more happy, free and fulfilling if they weren't religious.

 

My crappy life has nothing to do with this.

Like Lector (AKA Wayne Brady, who has been discovered and banned for his virulent personal attacks), you are venturing into an area that you're not really qualified to wander into.

 

Not slapping your opinions or religious views (yes, atheism is a religion as well), as you have a right to them, but making sweeping generalizations like this isn't rational and surely isn't a way to make friends.

I'm 35 years old, never had a sexual experience with a woman before, and never even experienced a woman being attracted to me. I know this is the way things will be for the rest of my life.

Because I really do feel for your personal situation of never having a close relationship with women at 35.... I'm gonna decline getting into a pissy fight with you here.. The others like Tara Maiden have expressed themselves well on this near-hateful thread you've posted.

 

For help with your dating situation, please visit that thread I created on tips for guys in their late 20, 30s and 40s to attract women...

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3300250

[Ross PK]

Like Lector (AKA Wayne Brady, who has been discovered and banned for his virulent personal attacks), you are venturing into an area that you're not really qualified to wander into.

 

Not slapping your opinions or religious views (yes, atheism is a religion as well), as you have a right to them, but making sweeping generalizations like this isn't rational and surely isn't a way to make friends.

 

Because I really do feel for your personal situation of never having a close relationship with women at 35.... I'm gonna decline getting into a pissy fight with you here.. The others like Tara Maiden have expressed themselves well on this near-hateful thread you've posted.

 

For help with your dating situation, please visit that thread I created on tips for guys in their late 20, 30s and 40s to attract women...

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3300250

 

I've already apologised in this thread. I wasn't hating on anyone, I was just feeling pissed off because of some religious people shoving their religion down other people's throats. I'm sick of militant Islamists in my country trying to take over with thier Sharia law, they have already made Halal meet legal, and it is now in our supermarkets and unlabled.

 

And I was annoyed at what had happened that day with those two Morons, sorry, I ment Mormons.

 

Btw, Atheism isn't a religion.

[sweetjasmine]

Beliefs neither harm, nor promote harm.

People interpret them and perpetuate them as such, but it's the people who are harmful.

Not the Beliefs.

 

Beliefs can certainly promote and incite harm. If you raise a child to believe that people of a particular gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. are sub-human, don't be surprised if that child's actions later reflect those beliefs. The belief that Africans and African-Americans were literally worth 3/5 of a white free person made it possible to sustain a system of legal slavery.

 

I don't buy that beliefs are harmless until the moment someone acts on them. I also think that people's beliefs affect their actions even if they're not fully aware of it. If you've thought for 50 years that sneetches with stars on their bellies are inferior to you, it's going to affect your worldview and actions in some way or another.

[Floridaman]

I've already apologised in this thread. I wasn't hating on anyone, I was just feeling pissed off because of some religious people shoving their religion down other people's throats. I'm sick of militant Islamists in my country trying to take over with thier Sharia law, they have already made Halal meet legal, and it is now in our supermarkets and unlabled.

Okay. That's a bit different.

Many see members of a certain religion trying to coerce their beliefs through the political system like you're referencing.

 

We're not talking about some prayer said before a meeting or some child wearing a religous-oriented tee-shirt, but people making laws instituting Sharia law as law of the land.

 

Not gonna debate that here (I tend to side with you on the Sharia law issue). Was thinking you were ragging on people like evangelical Christians.

 

No problem.

 

Btw, Atheism isn't a religion.

Got news for you here: atheism is a religious viewpoint like any other. So don't kid yourself.

[Ross PK]

Okay. That's a bit different.

Many see members of a certain religion trying to coerce their beliefs through the political system like you're referencing.

 

We're not talking about some prayer said before a meeting or some child wearing a religous-oriented tee-shirt, but people making laws instituting Sharia law as law of the land.

 

Not gonna debate that here (I tend to side with you on the Sharia law issue). Was thinking you were ragging on people like evangelical Christians.

 

No problem.

 

Not exactly sure what an evangelical Christian is, so I'm not sure if I would rag on any of them or not.

 

Got news for you here: atheism is a religious viewpoint like any other. So don't kid yourself.

 

An Atheist doesn't believe in God, doesn't go to any kinds of churches, and doesn't base their morals or lives their life based on a fictional God.

 

So no, Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is simply the absense of a belief

[Floridaman]

Not exactly sure what an evangelical Christian is, so I'm not sure if I would rag on any of them or not.

An evangelical Christian is one that tells others about his/her faith.

An Atheist doesn't believe in God, doesn't go to any kinds of churches, and doesn't base their morals or lives their life based on a fictional God.

So no, Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is simply the absense of a belief

You're splitting hairs here.

By saying there is no God or higher power, atheism is a religious viewpoint --- maybe not a religious system but a religious viewpoint like Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, Islam, Transcendal Meditation, Christianity, Judaism, Manacheism, Hedonism, Protestantism, Calvinism, etc. -- but it's still a religious viewpoint as no one on earth has the ultimate truth. Atheists included.

[Ross PK]

An evangelical Christian is one that tells others about his/her faith.

 

Well if any of them shove it down other people's throats, make innocent people feel guilty for things that aren't bad, or do bad things in the name of religion, then I'm ragging on those people too.

 

You're splitting hairs here.

By saying there is no God or higher power, atheism is a religious viewpoint --- maybe not a religious system but a religious viewpoint like Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, Islam, Transcendal Meditation, Christianity, Judaism, Manacheism, Hedonism, Protestantism, Calvinism, etc. -- but it's still a religious viewpoint as no one on earth has the ultimate truth. Atheists included.

 

Well, I guess I see religion differently from how you see it.

[Lovelybird]

Beliefs can certainly promote and incite harm. If you raise a child to believe that people of a particular gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. are sub-human, don't be surprised if that child's actions later reflect those beliefs. The belief that Africans and African-Americans were literally worth 3/5 of a white free person made it possible to sustain a system of legal slavery.

Where does Bible suggest such sub-human?

[sweetjasmine]

Where does Bible suggest such sub-human?

 

Where did I say that the Bible says that?

 

Why do you keep asking about the Bible? I'm talking about beliefs in general. There are religions and belief systems other than Christianity on this planet.

[Lovelybird]

Where did I say that the Bible says that?

 

Why do you keep asking about the Bible? I'm talking about beliefs in general. There are religions and belief systems other than Christianity on this planet.

Oh, you didn't mean Christianity and Bible? just curious, when you make a such general comment, i have to wonder. It would be more helpful if you are more specific

[Eclypse]

I'm on my phone so I can't copy paste stuff, but there are quite a few parts of the bible (in particular Deuteronomy and Corinthians) that worry me. Perhaps most alarming is Deuteronomy 22: 28-9 which states a virgin who was raped must marry her attacker and never be allowed to divorce. Another one off the top of my head is Corinthians 14:34 which states women must be silent in church as it is their place to be submissive and obedient. Corinthians 11: 3-10 also states that god is the head if Christ, Christ the head of every man, and man the head of woman. It then goes on to say that women should either shave their head or wear a veil and that women need to have a symbol of authority on their head.

 

Now seeing as a lot of the posters here are women, I am just curious to see what they think of this? Are they conent to be treated as second class citizens and admit they are inferior?

 

My personal opinion on this is that is how attitudes were back then and that's fine. But times have changed, and the bible is no longer relevant. Unless some of you seriously tell me you want to marry a man who raped you?

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm on my phone so I can't copy paste stuff, but there are quite a few parts of the bible (in particular Deuteronomy and Corinthians) that worry me. Perhaps most alarming is Deuteronomy 22: 28-9 which states a virgin who was raped must marry her attacker and never be allowed to divorce. Another one off the top of my head is Corinthians 14:34 which states women must be silent in church as it is their place to be submissive and obedient. Corinthians 11: 3-10 also states that god is the head if Christ, Christ the head of every man, and man the head of woman. It then goes on to say that women should either shave their head or wear a veil and that women need to have a symbol of authority on their head.

 

Now seeing as a lot of the posters here are women, I am just curious to see what they think of this? Are they conent to be treated as second class citizens and admit they are inferior?

 

My personal opinion on this is that is how attitudes were back then and that's fine. But times have changed, and the bible is no longer relevant. Unless some of you seriously tell me you want to marry a man who raped you?

 

Not going to address the man is the head of woman thing and the veil thing right now.

 

But Deuteronomy is Old Testament and the Law of the Old Testament was filled with the sacrifice of the Christ.

 

translation: it doesn't apply anymore, just like we don't sacrifice a dove when we swear.

 

As for the rape ideal, very very disturbingly old school yes, but in the good old days before rape kits and polygraphs a virgin violated would be practically unmarriable to anyone else (sad but true) so her attacker would then be responsible for her for the rest of her life.

 

Women back then were not supposed to be able to be in vulnerable circumstances where that type of behaviour could happen anyways, great tent cities etc very close together. It would have to be one heck of a circumstance, so it was probably often assumed (and I am quite sure, assumed incorrectly) that the girl was complicit.

[taiko]

Beliefs can certainly promote and incite harm. If you raise a child to believe that people of a particular gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. are sub-human, don't be surprised if that child's actions later reflect those beliefs. The belief that Africans and African-Americans were literally worth 3/5 of a white free person made it possible to sustain a system of legal slavery.

 

I don't buy that beliefs are harmless until the moment someone acts on them. I also think that people's beliefs affect their actions even if they're not fully aware of it. If you've thought for 50 years that sneetches with stars on their bellies are inferior to you, it's going to affect your worldview and actions in some way or another.

 

Once upon a time there were thirteen states in a loose confederation who decided they needed a stronger federal government. They decided to create a legislature of two houses. In the first each state was equal with two votes, in the lower house voting power was to be determined by a census of the population. The states were also to elect the executive leader, the President based upon the census.

 

Now even in the loose confederation slavery was controversial. Those that held slaves feared that the greater population of the North would overwhelm them in a heads up vote. They knew that soon an Abraham Lincoln would be elected and hoped to stall that possibility hoping that as the west opened up the new western states would be pro slavery. So the people who owned slaves proposed that their slaves be counted as fully as free citizens. The people against slavery said wait a minute you own them, they can not vote how dare you count them for political purposes. Eventually a compromise was struck as the slave owners could not count their slaves as they did their family members no matter how much they desired to.

[taiko]

to shove your poision down other people's throats?

 

No offense.

 

Poor tactics on their part. However we are not talking about "religious people" but basically Christians and Muslims who believe God wants them to win converts and grow disciples.

[Floridaman]

OP,

You really could have phrased your original posting differently. You did a disservice to this board by enflaming a religious debate from what originally sounded like a highly intolerant posting.

 

Then that now-banned Lector (AKA Wayne Brady) jumps in and shoves his views down everyone's throats and attacks all who hold spiritual beliefs.

 

What you were referencing - the valid fear of certain groups of people overtaking cultures and changing the governments of the countries to near theocarcies - and forcing everyone to follow a religious law that restricts the rights of women in court trials, dress, is very intolerant of others outside their group, etc.... requires daily prayers ....

that's a tad bit diff. than some garden variety Christian or Jew talking with someone about their religious beliefs - an activity many non-believers derogatorily call "shoving" their views on people....

 

The way you posted it, it sounded like you were intolerant of Christians or others. Yeah, people who hold religious views get that attitude from atheists all the time.... so the "shoving" goes both ways, no?

 

Hint: if you don't agree with someone's views on ANYTHING (politics, sports, etc.), just stop the conversation or politely leave.

 

They can't "force" their views on you just like you can't "shove" your views down their throats.

Notice my use of offensive and derogatory words like "shove" and "force..."

 

************************

 

If all you do is talk about your negative views on the afterlife and how you hate those that believe otherwise, then maybe they too feel like you're "shoving" your religious beliefs on them?

 

You may not be dissin' people with beliefs, but that's the vibe I'm gettin' here.

 

If you hold negative views like that, maybe that negativity is spilling out and hurting your chances of attracting women.

Most people have some sort of religious belief.

I think it's 90% in the U.S. (Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. with Christianity accounting for 70%).

 

So if you come off as some know-it-all atheist, you limit your chances of finding a woman who may like you.

Negativity rarely attracts people. Ever think of that?

Edited March 22, 2011 by Floridaman

[Ross PK]

Floridaman, haven't I already explained myself and apologised?

[Eclypse]

Not going to address the man is the head of woman thing and the veil thing right now.

 

But Deuteronomy is Old Testament and the Law of the Old Testament was filled with the sacrifice of the Christ.

 

translation: it doesn't apply anymore, just like we don't sacrifice a dove when we swear.

 

As for the rape ideal, very very disturbingly old school yes, but in the good old days before rape kits and polygraphs a virgin violated would be practically unmarriable to anyone else (sad but true) so her attacker would then be responsible for her for the rest of her life.

 

Women back then were not supposed to be able to be in vulnerable circumstances where that type of behaviour could happen anyways, great tent cities etc very close together. It would have to be one heck of a circumstance, so it was probably often assumed (and I am quite sure, assumed incorrectly) that the girl was complicit.

 

 

Aren't the 10 commandments in the Old Testament? Perhaps those do not apply as well in today's world. Surely we can't deny the word of God. You can't simply choose to follow the rules that are convenient and ignore the ones that aren't. It's all or nothing. Perhaps I shall decide to ignore the "thou shalt not murder" and kill that annoying lecturer who's had it in for me!

 

While some of the attitudes towards women and other minorities (particularly from Jesus' actions) are much improved in the New Testament, a lot of it seems to contradict other stuff. What's especially concerning for me is that Judaism only accepts the Old Testament. If this all they've got to go by, then I really am glad I'm not a minority in their society.

 

Islam's treatment of women, homosexuals etc is absolutely deploring as well. And to think all three of these major religions are so intimately connected. Although people say that attitudes change, certain events remind you that what is ingrained can be difficult to change. In 1988 when The Last Temptation of Christ was released fundamentalist Christian groups led an attack with molotov cocktails on cinema goers in France, injuring a large number of people. The book itself was banned in numerous countries due to petitioning by church groups. So much for freedom of speech eh, the very thing our western governments criticize muslim leaders, when it's just as bad in our own backyard.

 

I for one think that the separation of church and state is one of the greatest changes that our modern society has been able to achieve. Others however are not so lucky. Just look at the majority of the Middle east and Africa.

 

That said though, I consider the bible to be a fascinating book and one that I have read through on numerous occasions. I think anyone, no matter what religion should pick it up and give it a read.

[dreamingoftigers]

Aren't the 10 commandments in the Old Testament? Perhaps those do not apply as well in today's world. Surely we can't deny the word of God. You can't simply choose to follow the rules that are convenient and ignore the ones that aren't. It's all or nothing. Perhaps I shall decide to ignore the "thou shalt not murder" and kill that annoying lecturer who's had it in for me!

 

While some of the attitudes towards women and other minorities (particularly from Jesus' actions) are much improved in the New Testament, a lot of it seems to contradict other stuff. What's especially concerning for me is that Judaism only accepts the Old Testament. If this all they've got to go by, then I really am glad I'm not a minority in their society.

 

Islam's treatment of women, homosexuals etc is absolutely deploring as well. And to think all three of these major religions are so intimately connected. Although people say that attitudes change, certain events remind you that what is ingrained can be difficult to change. In 1988 when The Last Temptation of Christ was released fundamentalist Christian groups led an attack with molotov cocktails on cinema goers in France, injuring a large number of people. The book itself was banned in numerous countries due to petitioning by church groups. So much for freedom of speech eh, the very thing our western governments criticize muslim leaders, when it's just as bad in our own backyard.

 

I for one think that the separation of church and state is one of the greatest changes that our modern society has been able to achieve. Others however are not so lucky. Just look at the majority of the Middle east and Africa.

 

That said though, I consider the bible to be a fascinating book and one that I have read through on numerous occasions. I think anyone, no matter what religion should pick it up and give it a read.

 

Bolded and underlined is where I will address first. When Christ came, all of the major commandments (including the Big 10) boiled down into:

 

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

So murdering your neighbour might technically be okay if you are going to murder yourself too, but something (like the whole rest of everything said) tells me this isn't what he had in mind.

 

Therefore no more fattened calves on the altar and no more raping girls just to marry them. Jesus was the sin atonement etc. Since you have been through the Bible a few times (I've read through as well, seems to be uncommon nowadays) you will note how Jesus came to fufill the law. That's what he was referring to, no 600+ rules on things to keep us "clean."

 

So I don't really worry about the funny little laws dealing with my period etc. Also in the New Testament it covers how food is now free for us to choose, it isn't considered "unclean" for us to eat pork anymore etc.

 

I do remember (Corinthians, I think) that there was a specific letter to a church basically informing them to not get so hung up on rules and to not start adding in new ones. That would be fanaticism and a way to separate people from being a part of the community. Emphasis on love first.

 

I think that a lot of believers lose sight of this, one of the most popular scriptures is the one about love: (1st Corinthians 13:4-8)

 

" Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! "

 

I can't speak for Judaism, I do know that a lot of their practices seem to be boiled down since the dates and family lines can't be tracked anymore since the destruction of the temple. (which according to some more seriously studious Christians was partially to prove that no one other then Jesus could be Christ because the family line was all part of this.) From what I understand they have kept passover etc but not killing goats everytime someone shoplifts in the community. Or whatever.

 

As well, the followers of a certain teaching are often not fluent or even credible in that teaching. Think of the people you sat next to in high school chemistry. You probably don't want them teaching the class next year. As for fundamentalist groups on the attack etc. There are nuts everywhere. In fact biblically nuts could even be shown among those who had "demons." I somewhat think that "demons" and "psychological issues" were quite synonymous back then. This would easily explain Jesus healing those who were behaving aggressively etc.

 

I wouldn't want to be held accountable for the behaviours of my co-workers in most places, must less the actions of others who consider themselves 'Christian.' I have a hard time seeing Jesus throwing molotovs. Doesn't seem to fit with Corinthians quoted above. Not: "if at first love doesn't succeed, toss some weaponry in the mix."

 

I am actually a Mormon so plenty of the mainstream groups tend not to be as centrally organized. (No I am not with one of the polygamous groups, they are completely separate organizations, nor was I married at 12 etc etc etc.)

 

At the end of the day, every group has its morons or people that pull the wrong idea from what they are taught. It sucks when it harms other people. (That's morons, not Mormons!).

[Eclypse]

Too many morons around these days! But yeah, that "Love is patient and kind" quote my friend had on his facebook while he was in a long distance relationship with his boyfriend. He encountered a lot of stigma from his family as he was a very religious person, but it always made me smile. The guy ended up being a total jerk and completely destroyed my friends heart but he managed to move on.

 

Freedom of speech and belief is a wonderous thing, and one thing I'm glad we have in today's society. I don't want to spur or start any hate filled debates so let's just leave it at that. Everyone has different viewpoints!

[Floridaman]

Floridaman, haven't I already explained myself and apologised?

You're right, Ross. I apologize for belabouring it and making a bigger deal out of it. I think I also mixed up some things Lector/Wayne Brady said with some of your comments.

[Floridaman]

That said though, I consider the bible to be a fascinating book and one that I have read through on numerous occasions. I think anyone, no matter what religion should pick it up and give it a read.

That's a fair point and a good one for you to make.

In a lot of these discussions/debates, people say fiery things (on both sides of the issue) and people get to thinking those that point out things about Scripture like you did - some think those people are anti-religious or trying to knock Christianity and Judaism.

 

You apparently are not anti-religious and have actually taken time to read the Scripture so you know what you're talking about, unlike others (on both sides) who only go on things they read or hear.

[dreamingoftigers]

Too many morons around these days! But yeah, that "Love is patient and kind" quote my friend had on his facebook while he was in a long distance relationship with his boyfriend. He encountered a lot of stigma from his family as he was a very religious person, but it always made me smile. The guy ended up being a total jerk and completely destroyed my friends heart but he managed to move on.

 

Freedom of speech and belief is a wonderous thing, and one thing I'm glad we have in today's society. I don't want to spur or start any hate filled debates so let's just leave it at that. Everyone has different viewpoints!

 

So your friend (X) had the quote on his FB. He was dating (Y) and (Y) broke (X's) heart? But (X) managed to pull things together and move on? (X) was also very religious? (X's) family had a problem with the quote?

 

Did I get that right?

 

And yes, I do agree that Freedom of Speech is very very important to give people full access to choices.

 

I think it is actually kind of weird that people get so touchy over matters of personal faith choice because we wouldn't get so touchy over other things of choice. If I said I thought modern Chemistry was a load of crap then most people may think that I am a dope, but they wouldn't get so hyper about it. What's it matter to them anyways?

[Ross PK]

Too many morons around these days! But yeah, that "Love is patient and kind" quote my friend had on his facebook while he was in a long distance relationship with his boyfriend. He encountered a lot of stigma from his family as he was a very religious person, but it always made me smile. The guy ended up being a total jerk and completely destroyed my friends heart but he managed to move on.

 

Freedom of speech and belief is a wonderous thing, and one thing I'm glad we have in today's society. I don't want to spur or start any hate filled debates so let's just leave it at that. Everyone has different viewpoints!

 

Now now Eclypse, I hope you're not calling her a moron.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Ross PK