Women & Sex..... Some will think a sexist rant....

[sally4sara]

Orgasm Inc. (google it), that discusses the "myth" of a female viagra. You have two sides firmly entrenched as to whether the actual term "sexual dysfunction" and a pill to "cure" it exists or not.

 

Men look down and simply see a "hard on" or not..... What Viagra/Cialis/Levitra provides is the ability to get one when aroused. How you use it is up to you.

 

So the question is whether a female pill arouses a female and what it's value is. Women will say they are not interested in sex (will not prioritize it in my opinion). I have stated over and over that the spouses we read of in LS, all are aroused, lubricated and enjoy sex when they have it, just don't care enough about it.

 

My view is if the pill will make it better, which many say viagra/cialis/levitra does as well and makes them want it (and that is the key), then why wouldn't they take it?

 

Now let's look at specific cases, the departed JamesM, Giotto, HV and me (though I have to keep saying my issues are no where near the others;)). Our wives acknowledge the problem (and chide us for being childish for our preoccupation/obsession with sex), but would not go as far as to take a pill say once a week that ensures arousal and better sex..... Just not in them.

 

This is one of the links I'm going off of as I don't have any personal experience with sexual dysfunction.

 

http://www.tipsinlife.com/viagra-women-effects.htm

 

It showed good effect with FSAD (primarily a physical impediment) but not much with HSDD (which has a psychological component). The physical changes were the same but still remains the whole horse to water either will or won't drink.

 

Which is where I find a rub. If all the plumbing is working and the lady still doesn't want it then maybe its the same as you suggest with men not wanting it due to their female partner's appearance? His grooming and appearance taking a dive or his attitude/personality is so off putting? For myself, experiencing a lack of wanting with my ex husband it was the latter of those two. He just plain disgusted me as a person. I didn't stay for the time I did because I couldn't manage on my own either. There were many other reasons that also had to burn out before I got to that point.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

This is one of the links I'm going off of as I don't have any personal experience with sexual dysfunction.

 

http://www.tipsinlife.com/viagra-women-effects.htm

 

It showed good effect with FSAD (primarily a physical impediment) but not much with HSDD (which has a psychological component). The physical changes were the same but still remains the whole horse to water either will or won't drink.

 

Which is where I find a rub. If all the plumbing is working and the lady still doesn't want it then maybe its the same as you suggest with men not wanting it due to their female partner's appearance? His grooming and appearance taking a dive or his attitude/personality is so off putting? For myself, experiencing a lack of wanting with my ex husband it was the latter of those two. He just plain disgusted me as a person. I didn't stay for the time I did because I couldn't manage on my own either. There were many other reasons that also had to burn out before I got to that point.

 

That was the question/rant..... Women are so much more complicated and the reasons/issues much deeper.....

 

I am not perfect, am the first to admit it. I am however a very decent person (I think) and certainly know things that stick in my spouse's craw. Do we talk them out? Yes and no as she keeps more to herself and has trouble expressing feelings outside anger well and also never thinks she's wrong (very very seldom). Are there things I can do to improve? Yes and I think I do work on them..... But no one fits that 100% ideal. My wife is almost perfect too, but there are things (outside sex) that bother me, but they are negligible and I certainly don't make as big a deal of them as she does of mine, which I put on the same level. Maybe it is simply that I am a horn dog and just concerned with sex.......

[LittleTiger]

That was the question/rant..... Women are so much more complicated and the reasons/issues much deeper.....

 

You just think women are more complicated because you don't understand them (oops) I mean 'us'.

 

Maybe this will help.

 

You're a self-confessed 'horn-dog' and, presumably, sex is your favourite recreational activity and you'll do it as often as possible? Just a wild guess! Most women aren't built like that - many would rather have a cup of tea or a bar of chocolate - yes really, that's not a joke!

 

Lets use food as an analogy. Think of one of your favourite 'slap up' meals. You probably enjoy eating it on a fairly regular basis - maybe once a month. Imagine your wife enjoys the same meal but she would eat it every day or at least ever other day. She knows you'd never go for that so she eats it by herself sometimes.

 

If a pill became available to help you to want that meal every other day - just to make your wife happy - would you take it?

[ladydesigner]

You just think women are more complicated because you don't understand them (oops) I mean 'us'.

 

Maybe this will help.

 

You're a self-confessed 'horn-dog' and, presumably, sex is your favourite recreational activity and you'll do it as often as possible? Just a wild guess! Most women aren't built like that - many would rather have a cup of tea or a bar of chocolate - yes really, that's not a joke!

 

Lets use food as an analogy. Think of one of your favourite 'slap up' meals. You probably enjoy eating it on a fairly regular basis - maybe once a month. Imagine your wife enjoys the same meal but she would eat it every day or at least ever other day. She knows you'd never go for that so she eats it by herself sometimes.

 

If a pill became available to help you to want that meal every other day - just to make your wife happy - would you take it?

 

LittleTiger I had to chuckle at the bolded because it is so true. You are right on the money, for my situation anyways.

 

My H is also a "horn dog" and he would probably place sex as the most important necessity in life, even before oxygen:laugh:

 

I on the other hand would much rather have a stimulating conversation, holding each other while watching a movie, but definitely not sex.

 

I can recognize my libido going up almost the same time each month and it is usually when I am ovulating. Other than that time I can normally take it or leave it. When we have sex it is always mind blowing for both of us.

 

I like the quality more than the quantity, he probably prefers the quantity:)

[Toodamnpragmatic]

You just think women are more complicated because you don't understand them (oops) I mean 'us'.

 

Maybe this will help.

 

You're a self-confessed 'horn-dog' and, presumably, sex is your favourite recreational activity and you'll do it as often as possible? Just a wild guess! Most women aren't built like that - many would rather have a cup of tea or a bar of chocolate - yes really, that's not a joke!

 

Lets use food as an analogy. Think of one of your favourite 'slap up' meals. You probably enjoy eating it on a fairly regular basis - maybe once a month. Imagine your wife enjoys the same meal but she would eat it every day or at least ever other day. She knows you'd never go for that so she eats it by herself sometimes.

 

If a pill became available to help you to want that meal every other day - just to make your wife happy - would you take it?

 

but of course I would. Now if the issue is that it is fantastic just once a month, but ho-hum if every other day and I could take a pill that makes it fantastic once a week and it makes my spouse happy, why wouldn't I.

 

Now let's take HV and the fact his spouse loved and savoured meals she later claimed to detest or had no need to eat again. This meal was essential for her spouse's happiness and health and she has refused to eat it since. She even has gone as far to say that if there was a pill she could take she has little interest.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

LittleTiger I had to chuckle at the bolded because it is so true. You are right on the money, for my situation anyways.

 

My H is also a "horn dog" and he would probably place sex as the most important necessity in life, even before oxygen:laugh:

 

I on the other hand would much rather have a stimulating conversation, holding each other while watching a movie, but definitely not sex.

 

I can recognize my libido going up almost the same time each month and it is usually when I am ovulating. Other than that time I can normally take it or leave it. When we have sex it is always mind blowing for both of us.

 

I like the quality more than the quantity, he probably prefers the quantity:)

 

I don't believe that is the case for most men. Give them all they want and they too I bet would tire quickly and you'll find he'll want it a lot less then he claims he does. Then take that magic cream to excite and pleasure you and you'll find a happy median. Your husband just complains because the gap right now is huge.

[dreamingoftigers]

My God do I ever not understand the low desire thing! I would take it when I could get it. Even though my h shows no enthusiasm whatsoever!

 

I asked for YEARS to be kissed a certain way and he rarely rarely does it.

 

I don't even so much care about the emotional train-wreck in our marriage as I do about getting some. I think I am on the wrong side if this debate!

 

I also know that I won't continue very much longer in a sexless marriage. Hearing about and reading how other people are having even below-average sex lives just inflames me!

 

It has gotten to the point where I am refused even a hand on the outside until I can finish myself.

 

Out if all of the things that cause anger and resent in this train-wreck, being refused any kind of sexual contact for the once every few weeks I pathetically request it pissed me off the most ESP when I know all if the ways he us entertaining himself!

 

I have given myself a personal deadline for hid much longer I will deal with that kind of bull****. I think that living in a sexless marriage for no good reason after you have tried everything you can is very reasonable grounds for divorce. If I knew that it would be anything like this when I got married, not only would I have not gotten married, I probably would have explosively ended things!

 

I certainly didn't do anything worthy of being refused the most basic of marital contact.

[Woggle]

Why does it seem that women with a good libido always end up with men who have no drive? Don't take offense to this but could it be a case of wanting it because he doesn't?

[dreamingoftigers]

No I have always been this way. Another relationship split partially because of libido differences. I thought I finally found someone that satisfied that department. Now he just doesn't show up for it. I wish I was one of those girls who could just say NO and have a nice hot chocolate and be perfectly content. It is literally a day to day struggle to not self-stimulate and maintain the standard of my marriage. I cave, often.

[dreamingoftigers]

There is also a link between weight problems and sexual compulsion. Maybe we are extra-sensitive to the dopamine release of something. It seems ironic that the people who crave it the most ate the least likely to get it.

[Woggle]

Sometimes people are just good matches. My wife and I are like two rabbits as opposed to my ex who at first didn't want sex with me but seemingly wanted sex with every other man who came to Seaside Heights. At the end though I wanted nothing to do with her because frankly she disgusted me when she was high.

[sally4sara]

That was the question/rant..... Women are so much more complicated and the reasons/issues much deeper.....

 

I am not perfect, am the first to admit it. I am however a very decent person (I think) and certainly know things that stick in my spouse's craw. Do we talk them out? Yes and no as she keeps more to herself and has trouble expressing feelings outside anger well and also never thinks she's wrong (very very seldom). Are there things I can do to improve? Yes and I think I do work on them..... But no one fits that 100% ideal. My wife is almost perfect too, but there are things (outside sex) that bother me, but they are negligible and I certainly don't make as big a deal of them as she does of mine, which I put on the same level. Maybe it is simply that I am a horn dog and just concerned with sex.......

 

Please don't think I'm implying to you that you are similar to my ex husband and that THAT is whats behind your wife's lack of want. Trust that my ex could never have been stumped over my lack of want for him. Rather he just pretended to be clueless.

 

I think what you're talking about is more similar to what one of my female friends is dealing with in her marriage currently. I think its a matter of familiarity and arrogance. Before she mentioned it to me I noticed it in her husband. Here is where the "little" things come into play. Common conversation topics when he is being social:

 

Him (to me): Oh these books I finished reading since the beginning of the year were very good. You should read X and Y. X was okay; read the book but don't bother with the crappy movie they made from it. Y in particular was my favorite.

Him (to her) You should read X; you liked the movie but you won't like Y so don't bother with it.

 

I'll point it out to you but can you guess why this conversation pissed her off?

[xxoo]

Why does it seem that women with a good libido always end up with men who have no drive? Don't take offense to this but could it be a case of wanting it because he doesn't?

 

I don't think this is "always" the case. It just seems that way on a message board where people are posting about problems.

 

I do wonder how the "low libido" spouse benefits from being in the role of "pursued" all the time. It can be quite an ego stroke to be so desired. Is the any possibility that some are playing "hard to get" in order to heighten their sense of desirability?

[Woggle]

I don't think this is "always" the case. It just seems that way on a message board where people are posting about problems.

 

I do wonder how the "low libido" spouse benefits from being in the role of "pursued" all the time. It can be quite an ego stroke to be so desired. Is the any possibility that some are playing "hard to get" in order to heighten their sense of desirability?

 

Some might be. I think this was the case with my friend who saved his marriage by threatening to go outside of it. She saw that she was not his only option and on some level that made her desire it more.

[LittleTiger]

but of course I would. Now if the issue is that it is fantastic just once a month, but ho-hum if every other day and I could take a pill that makes it fantastic once a week and it makes my spouse happy, why wouldn't I.

 

Ok, in that scenario perhaps you would, but what you're suggesting is for women to take a pill so they can do something that is ho-hum once a week rather than once a month. They enjoy it but they'd rather have a bar of chocolate.

 

Now let's take HV and the fact his spouse loved and savoured meals she later claimed to detest or had no need to eat again. This meal was essential for her spouse's happiness and health and she has refused to eat it since. She even has gone as far to say that if there was a pill she could take she has little interest.

 

Personally, I think HVs wife is an exception here, and Giotto's wife is depressed, so you can't use her as an example either.

 

I'm sure a man who suffered some form of sexual abuse as a child (or whatever HVs wife went through) could be faced with similar issues in adult life and I know that it's normal for anyone, man or woman, to lose interest in sex when they're depressed (except me ).

 

Your wife seems closer to the 'norm', if there is such a thing, because she will have sex with you on occasion and enjoy it. She just doesn't enjoy it enough to want it more often.

 

As I said before, viagra helps men to do something they already want to do. Lets say, to make your wife happier, you could take a pill to make you desire sex less often - would you take that?

[xxoo]

I think many men can have sex no matter what they feel about their partner. If she is annoying and nagging all day, he can still desire sex. If there are unresolved issues and resentment, he can still desire sex.

 

I don't think that is true for many women. If she is annoyed with him all day, she will have to PUSH past that to be open to sex that night. If there are unresolved issues and resentment, she will have to PUSH past that in order to desire sex.

 

The ultimate catch 22: Men need sex to feel connected and address the issues. Women need to connect and fix the issues before they desire sex.

 

That's frustrating, yes, but it isn't a matter of "right" and "wrong". It just is, and we need to be willing to work with each other. And a magic pill that makes women approach sex and relationships the same way as men is simply that--magic, not reality.

[ladydesigner]

I don't think this is "always" the case. It just seems that way on a message board where people are posting about problems.

 

I do wonder how the "low libido" spouse benefits from being in the role of "pursued" all the time. It can be quite an ego stroke to be so desired. Is the any possibility that some are playing "hard to get" in order to heighten their sense of desirability?

 

 

I don't feel this way. I often felt all the pursuing would lead to sex, which it should I know. It kind of had the opposite effect on me in actually turning me off. I like it when my H plays hard to get, then I want it more. It is so friggin confusing to me. I'm sure I am at the root of the problem. I try to please my husband at least 1-2x a week and I enjoy this as well. I know he would like more. When we met we were like rabbits, we were like rabbits literally until we had kids. I really wish I knew what my whole mental hangup is.

 

My girlfriend says well just start having it more and you'll want it more. Maybe that is the answer. I'm going to try it:p

[Woggle]

I don't know if that is entirely true about men having sex no matter how they feel. During the last weeks of my marriage I wanted nothing to do with my wife. It felt like having sex with Lindsey Lohan or Courtney Love.

[xxoo]

I don't know if that is entirely true about men having sex no matter how they feel. During the last weeks of my marriage I wanted nothing to do with my wife. It felt like having sex with Lindsey Lohan or Courtney Love.

 

Yes, I'm definitely generalizing, and talking about typical marital issues (disagreements about money, kids, etc). It would be different with more extreme issues (addiction, abuse, mental illness, etc).

[sweetjasmine]

When sex dwindles for a man, as said I stated in the OP it is pretty simple...... He never was sexual and the woman ignored it, he is a closeted homosexual (read many threads on LS where it is painfully clear that is the case and the woman denies it over and over), a porn addiction, they have mother madonna/whore (i.e. you have had children) issues or the sad cruelty that the woman has let herself go (put on weight, unkempt.....).

 

I don't believe this to be true. Literally none of those things you listed explain my situation.

 

It may be hard for some people to believe, but there are men out there who have emotions, stresses, and problems that affect their libido. My SO has little desire because he's depressed, angry, exhausted, grumpy, and moody, and when he's like that, I have no desire to initiate anything either because who could possibly think about sex when their partner is talking about how miserable and tired they are and how they don't want to do anything? The kicker is he then gets a bit upset at me for it even though a minute later he'll admit that he's never up for it anyway. And the bigger problem is that the less intimate we are, the more disconnected I feel, and the more disconnected I feel, the more awkward it is to be intimate.

 

So to be honest, I find it a little insulting that you're suggesting that men are simple, two-dimensional cartoon characters without complicated emotional and psychological issues of their own and that women are a pile of confusing baggage. People are complicated.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I don't believe this to be true. Literally none of those things you listed explain my situation.

 

It may be hard for some people to believe, but there are men out there who have emotions, stresses, and problems that affect their libido. My SO has little desire because he's depressed, angry, exhausted, grumpy, and moody, and when he's like that, I have no desire to initiate anything either because who could possibly think about sex when their partner is talking about how miserable and tired they are and how they don't want to do anything? The kicker is he then gets a bit upset at me for it even though a minute later he'll admit that he's never up for it anyway. And the bigger problem is that the less intimate we are, the more disconnected I feel, and the more disconnected I feel, the more awkward it is to be intimate.

 

So to be honest, I find it a little insulting that you're suggesting that men are simple, two-dimensional cartoon characters without complicated emotional and psychological issues of their own and that women are a pile of confusing baggage. People are complicated.

 

Of course I am generalizing, but 95% of males are pretty simple if they are not on medication or huge work stress. Dress in lingerie, whisper some sweet nothings prior to bed and reach down his pants and I promise you he'll respond.......

Edited March 17, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Honorable_Venerable]

Personally, I think HVs wife is an exception here, and Giotto's wife is depressed, so you can't use her as an example either.

 

The more I read, the more it reinforces that the simple statement "What is 'normal'?" is a HUGE deal - the variability between people and their marriages is so big that comparisons seem almost meaningless. And what you can measure, understand and batten onto is a tiny part of the overall picture. I've done work on crop trials in the lab in the past. The lab measurements are reproducible to within 10%. Individual plants vary by 10,000%. I suspect that human relationships would demonstrate a similar uncertainty - it's all exceptions and no rules!

[sally4sara]

Of course I am generalizing, but 95% is pretty simple if they are not on medication or huge work stress. Dress in lingerie, whisper some sweet nothings prior to bed and reach down his pants and I promise you he'll respond.......

 

Ah, but take him around your ma who believes they work a loser's job and don't do battle for him when you ma starts needling him thinking he can speak for himself - you won't be getting laid that night either no matter what you wear. BTDT.

 

Everybody has some little thing that gets under their skin in a big way.

[LittleTiger]

- it's all exceptions and no rules!

 

You know, it's funny you say that, because as I was typing about your wife and Giotto's the same thing was crossing my mind. In the absence of JamesM, there are just three of you 'in the same boat', but the 'boats' are all a very different design.

[threebyfate]

Tdp, you give off a very controlling vibe in regards to your marriage. Might this have anything to do with the sexless part of it, in a form of passive-aggressive resistance?