Control and Sexless Marriages

[Alma Mobley]

Okay, that's a weird observation considering how I've been participating in this thread.

 

Alma, were you the withholder or being withheld?

 

I was the withholder in that relationship. (Sorry for the late reply, btw.)

[schtickeeuigsdlq]

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[NoIDidn't]

I agree with TBF. Even the threads in here come across as the refusing partner is being bullied to death about what the other partner feels is their due in the marriage. I admit to not having read them all, or even many recently, but I remember the ones I've read over the years.

 

Right down to the "doing everything to please [them]" bit. It comes across as manipulative, and thus, controlling.

 

Sex drives often don't line up evenly. But even in marriage, no one is entitled to sex. Most vows say "for better or worse". Well, no or low sex, is worse.

 

Demanding sex damages the marital bond. I can understand the frustration of wanting more sex, I've been there. But, I can't see the point of whining about it as its unattractive. Its another person's body that is being demanded here. That's not something I take lightly.

[2sunny]

I've yet to see a sexless marriage where they don't fall in the following pattern.

 

Dominant and controlling partner takes charge of relationship, whether overtly or covertly. Sooner or later, the more passive partner starts to rebel but due to pattern set throughout the relationship, finds that doing it overtly causes too much conflict. So then, they shut down in the attraction department, a deliberate or not deliberate way to passive-aggressively resist.

 

OR the submissive one just drinks herself to near death instead...

[dreamingoftigers]

Could someone please review my threads and pull out the controlling elements in me?

 

In my case I found that I would be the dominant one, but purely by fluke.

 

My husband perceives anything emotionally reactive to be manipulative and attacking.

 

I kid you not. His mother goes off at the drop of a pin during his highly volatile childhood (abandoned by 4 mothers and 4 fathers, so far, I have one last one to get in touch with to complete his history for the clinic).

 

The mother that had him the longest (she is the one I call my mother-in-law) is easily "hurt enough for all of the world." The second she hears something that she doesn't like "it is hurtful" and it also gives her license to blast off for hours even.

 

She would lock my husband in a room to the point where he rebelled by urinating on the floor. She has some very closed-minded and fanatical beliefs about sex as well.

 

It would seem to me that his sexual function is where he gains the control back anytime there is an emotion at play.

 

The same month we got married, the sex dropped lower. I couldn't figure it out. Our therapist has said that the intimacy is a powerful force to him and that the anxiety he has over would knock out his sexual function until he resolves a lot of those childhood issues, EMDR being the best course of action.

 

For the first 3 years of our marriage the sex was infrequent but I didn't note one single other point of contention or stress. We were very happy together. I didn't ask for much and he showered me with affection, attention, and gifts. I think now that he was trying to simply meet my every emotional need so that I didn't crack up like his mother did.

 

I simply didn't but I think he grew to resent it at the same time. Hence, turning to his own private rebellion.

 

I have worked over the last year to contain my emotional reactivity to a situation that is just ridiculously emotional.

 

He is very escapist and avoidant. He would make promises and write things that he would do to change the current situation. If I brought it up at a later date, he would snap and either threaten the end of the relationship or leave.

 

He would tell me often that I "just made him feel like ****." He would specifically reference things like: "when you found out I was cheating you cried all night and said you might not want to be married anymore. See, you shamed me, you attacked me."

 

To me this was a pretty obvious expression of normal pain given the circumstance. I find he either takes complete responsibility for how I am feeling or reacting or he takes no responsibility for his actions. For example: if I become frustrated because the car won't start, even just a look, he becomes agitated and screaming that he can't do everything etc and that it isn't his fault. This will happen when he hasn't been implicated at all. This was very difficult to deal with when we ran our business and an employee was problematic. Any expression of disdain would prompt a battle cry out of him. In fact he would often discredit me in front of staff until I set heavy boundaries around that.

 

Try bringing up something basic: "I have for the last two years been supportive of your healing from this addiction. I do not feel that you have reciprocated and been supportive of me healing from this pain. I would like there to be no more criticism of my efforts to attend group and heal as well as become a healthier person." That will lead to be hung up on. Less then 10 seconds. Then later followed by "Can we just not ever talk about that, period? Permanently? Why do you have to make me feel like **** all the time? Our therapist said you have to take responsibility to heal. So go heal. Quit bothering me with it." Going and healing is my responsibility, yes. BUT him not delivering anymore emotionally abusive blows is his. It seems that he believes his actions do not affect others, that his actions are only referenced to make him "feel shame or like ****."

 

Often he finds faults in others. He has no friends and has managed to find lists of problems with mine. I still decide who my friends are.

 

He knew that by threatening the end of everything he could pull that chain as often as he wanted. And pull he did. Until I got strong enough to let him pull it right out. He made a choice, he had to leave. It was completely different for him making the choice then me simply rejecting him or being moody or dependent.

 

I don't view myself as dominant in this relationship. That being said, oftentimes I am the only one in the relationship. Any domination comes in the form of having any emotion whatsoever, including love and affection. He shies away now believing that there is no way that I feel that anymore. He says his anxiety is through the roof around me and then he misses me and wants to come back when he is away. Being dominant to someone that messed up is like trying to nail a picture to the wind.

 

Trying to talk about anything is fairly useless. He tends to do better when he walks into walls on his own. I.e. choosing to turn to the addiction while realizing that the choice is to have the door on his family close. When he made the obvious losing choice, he learned more in 10 days then talking to him for two years ever did.

 

I know that with EMDR, you are able to start to see the world as not so "you-centered." People are living their lives, they aren't out to get or admire you. When I first went for EMDR I felt the world was stacked against me. Now I see that I am responsible for my life and choices, I stack the deck against myself by my actions. My husband talks like that, but then does things that suggest otherwise and blames and criticizes everyone else and talks about everything being against him (despite the fact that his wife remains supportive over the course of two years with this nuttery). I am hoping he gets into EMDR very very soon. I think even half a dozen sessions could promote some major changes. He isn't very grounded and he just turned 33.

 

I am glad to say that I am holding my ground much better.

 

I do agree that sexlessness is often based on the conflict of the marriage. Sex becomes the 'push and pull' thing. It becomes the last big deal. The last line of defence.

 

The more sex I chased from my husband, the less I got. Until I stopped chasing and got none at all. I will never ask again for sex. It is too humiliating now. The conflict already moved to residences and will probably move to money. Who knows what's next before it all dies or he gets better.

 

His distinct inability to be honest caused the loss of nearly everything. Our finances lie in ruins, our business crumbled and the cratered. Our daughter has not got a stable father. School fell away. Our relationship is always 5 minutes away from biting the dust.

 

I learned something though. I will never depend on anyone again no matter how much I trust them, no matter how good they treat me.

 

If my husband's treatment takes and I am still able to stand him by then, I have already opted for separate finances, I run a separate business and I have childcare backup 7 days a week. My vehicle is mine, etc. If he wants to exit stage left randomly, he need only grab his jacket. I don't think we will ever make a joint purchase again. Or put bills in his name (hassle if he takes off and cancels them).

 

True about the conflict, very true. I believe that if my husband wasn't so conflict-avoidant we wouldn't have this issue. I also believe that the only way the issue could have been avoided on my end was to walk out or throw him out much earlier. I tried everything else. He just seems to feel that anyone's mood is his fault or nothing is his fault. Both are defenses against reality.

 

It has been hard to accept that I attracted a man with the same coping skills as my father. (A confirmed narcissist). It has been a bitter pill but I truly don't believe I have mistreated my husband. In fact, I have recorded a few conversations between us, and even under review he just loses it over very neutral, simple things. Goes on the defensive, goes on the offensive. It took me years to confirm to myself that I wasn't crazy! He was!

 

I never let him turn it around on me anymore. It helps. If he tries to throw in other issues in the mix to sidetrack me, I ask when he would like to discuss those because now we are discussing Issue A. Sometimes once we get through all of the defenses and attacks, we make a little progress. Baby steps.

[threebyfate]

dot, I think it's important that the two of you continue to discuss your issues with your respective therapists. Don't know if he's got one though.

 

What you want isn't unreasonable for many men. But what you want from your husband specifically, sounds like Mt. Everest considering his foundational triggers.

 

You want to fix and change him to the man you envisioned him to be. Not sure that's possible, at least at the pace you want or if ever.

 

He's pushing you back because he feels controlled and boxed in. From his perspective and background, you too can probably understand why. While this doesn't mean his perspective is "right", it is his perspective.

 

But then, I've become a disbeliever in the concept of absolute "rights" and "wrongs", believing more that perception is reality.

[dreamingoftigers]

dot, I think it's important that the two of you continue to discuss your issues with your respective therapists. Don't know if he's got one though.

 

I am headed back to mine. He will be arranging one for aftercare from the clinic (and possibly beforehand). I should hear an update on this in the next week or so.

 

What you want isn't unreasonable for many men. No kidding! But what you want from your husband specifically, sounds like Mt. Everest considering his foundational triggers. Quite frankly, he has testified that he wants this too, and realizes that his background has a massive amount to do with it. He has let me know in various ways that his issues have fried far more then our marriage: it has put him on the streets for ten years, impated his ability to complete university and destabilized him as a father which is very very central to him. At this point I do believe that he feels powerless against most of it. His fuse is super-short and trust is not an easy commodity for him (and I don't mean temper so much, even just avoidance and fear).

 

I learned about predator and prey animals in a Carleton University class I took while I was pregnant (it was pretty neat feeling her jump around inside while I watched the videos!) Prey animals have what is called "hypervigilance" they are constantly on the watch for threats in their environment. Even their eyes have specific placements so that most of them can see all angles around them. Their first reaction is often to freeze or run when faced with potential threat. I have killed two rabbits with my driving because they got scared and darted under my tires.

 

Their response to my car driving up wasn't "rational" per se. Often children of abuse/neglect/abandonment do not trust easily. They have a hard time in new environments, especially safe and consistent ones. I remember being at my Aunt's place for 3 weeks and having my stress levels go through the roof when I was 12. I was constantly waiting on edge for someone to yell or slam something etc etc. It was so quiet that it set me on edge.

 

I have one friend from a severely abusive home who cannot fall asleep without the TV blaring.

 

When I moved out on my own, this same reaction happened again but I knew why. So I pushed myself into dealing with the quiet and not distracting myself from it. Eventually my stress levels toned down and I adjusted, I even liked it.

 

My husband's home must have been super-chaotic. My in-laws home is to this day and apparently she has mellowed significantly over the last 20 or so years.

 

I believe that he retains this animal-like hypervigilance. EMDR took a lot of my triggers away and I no longer look out for the old threats I used to. I no longer feel threatened by a presence like my father's. I am only 1/3 through my sessions too. EMDR processes the trauma caused in earlier events, allows the brain to put them into context. My father who used to cause stress on sight, doesn't even trigger a blip in me anymore. If fact when he does act up, it is completely depersonalized for me now. I can tell that the trauma that my husband has caused is not because I talk about him a lot. My brain is simply stuck on it and is having trouble moving forward and understanding it.

 

I believe that my husband is heavily and easily triggered. I believe the addictions to be an obvious escape. I think he is mostly guided by a short-term preservation instinct just like our bunnies above. :bunny: Unfortunately, he will get smucked if he keeps jumping first and looking after. I will wait for treatment because I believe that is his best chance and will continue working my EMDR and group until he is in a healthy enough place to clearly evaluate how things should go. I believe it irresponsible to leave a marriage when someone is ill. At this point he has made significant arrangements to go to treatment. If those steps stop or fail to come to fruition, then we stop too. He has to do it himself. I won't sit on ice begging. I won't cattle prod him. He is 33.

 

You want to fix and change him to the man you envisioned him to be. Not sure that's possible, at least at the pace you want or if ever.

 

I don't think that he can be the man that he appeared to be. I am quite convinced that that man, unencumbered, does not exist. I am hoping that there would be a more balanced man coming away from these things. At least not a divided man who is constantly confused about who he is or what he might want.

 

As for the amount of time, I will not go much further without significant change. The treatment should be about 70-85% effective in knocking out the "reward" from the addictive behaviours. Aftercare is tremendously fast-acting. Maybe 8 weeks should produce significant results. Polygraph would follow. 40% of sexual addicts fail their first polygraph. 90%+ pass the second one. The standard is 3, if they don't pass after time 3, they ain't gonna pass.

 

Emotionally, I have very much reached my limit and will not extend my patience or kindness any further. Especially with his perception of it. I find it insulting and will not play ball with someone who claims "to want us as a family" and then goes and buys another laptop. He has been irritated and upset with the fact that I seem fed up by the relationship lately. My God is he right! It is so hard not looking at my husband and seeing a traumatized infant that never learned any coping skills. I would say that with my EMDR, I went in being an "emotional infant" and I have now possibly grown emotionally to the age of 12. I kid you not. Embarassing at 28, but the truth nonetheless.

 

He's pushing you back because he feels controlled and boxed in. From his perspective and background, you too can probably understand why. While this doesn't mean his perspective is "right", it is his perspective.

 

Oh I know, it is just very very frustrating to try to share a completely neutral adult concern with someone that plays "chase."

I played chase with my daughter tonight who is almost two. Trust me, it is far cuter.

 

But then, I've become a disbeliever in the concept of absolute "rights" and "wrongs", believing more that perception is reality.

 

I agree with you quite a bit.

 

I have many concerns about the path that this will take. I am not so naive as I once was. The odds are not great. I did, however, make a committment and have put significant time and energy into it. I have learned volumes about addiction, relationships, brain function and parenting. I have pretty much had to confront every single childhood demon and fear that I ever had. If the marriage fails, I still take all of those things with me.

 

I don't know how I would ever reclaim feeling for him even close to what I once had. My sexual pull for him has all but died out in the last week, that for me is usually a death knell. And it says a lot considering how ready to go I always was.

 

His in and out and leaving etc. in the last eight or so weeks has done a number on my respect for him and any trust that there once was has all but dissolved. I am probably in some denial that I am on my way out the door.

 

In a way I feel bad because he is headed to treatment. But I don't feel too bad, because the way he treated me (even aside from his addiction) has been abysmal. He also had two years to do something. He spent that two years in denial and not taking any responsibility. Not my fault.

 

The whole last week I gritted my teeth, the words were in my mouth to leave and tell him certain things (And not out of anger). I told myself "no stone unturned." And I also know that feeling change based on stimulus. If he were to come out of treatment even slightly remorseful and somewhat lucid and somewhat kind, I am sure my heart would defrost a little between then and aftercare.

 

Luckily both he and I know a little bit about Neural Plasticity and optimism. That is literally the only and last chance.

[dreamingoftigers]

Anyways I do think that you are absolutely right TBF about the central conflict in sexless marriages. There is definitely a power shift and struggle there when the cause is not medical.

[tommyr]

Sex drives often don't line up evenly. But even in marriage, no one is entitled to sex. Most vows say "for better or worse". Well, no or low sex, is worse.

 

Demanding sex damages the marital bond. I can understand the frustration of wanting more sex, I've been there. But, I can't see the point of whining about it as its unattractive. Its another person's body that is being demanded here. That's not something I take lightly.

 

I agree: each person in a marriage is free to decide against sex.

Years ago, my wife was just such a person. She did not want

(or need) sex, and so we had none - despite my (completely normal) wants and needs. Just as you say above, whining or demands on my part were useless because SHE controls HER body and I was not entitled to sex.

 

The dynamic changed only when I made it clear

 

1. She too has needs (non-sexual) in the marriage
   
2. I was exercising my free will to ignore her most important needs exactly as she ignored mine
   
3. A marriage of disregarded needs would probably be brief and not much fun
   

Once a marriage reaches the point of entitlement for sex (or any important/legitimate need) the ship is already sinking.

[SummersEve]

If my husband didn't want to have sex with me I would leave.

[participation]

I've yet to see a sexless marriage where they don't fall in the following pattern.

 

Dominant and controlling partner takes charge of relationship, whether overtly or covertly. Sooner or later, the more passive partner starts to rebel but due to pattern set throughout the relationship, finds that doing it overtly causes too much conflict. So then, they shut down in the attraction department, a deliberate or not deliberate way to passive-aggressively resist.

 

You have hit the nail on the head. All the bs about low libido, children, too busy - it's just that, b.s. denial. These women are just too darn lazy to even have sex. When my wife decided to sit around watching t.v. all day, acting like a demanding queen bee, while I worked my tail off. I decided to get the sex from somewhere else. The one that's putting out is the one that I go out of my way to please with flowers and presents. I avoid the wife like the plague and can't wait to drop the divorce bomb on her. It's a simple equation, No sex=No marriage

[Toodamnpragmatic]

You have hit the nail on the head. All the bs about low libido, children, too busy - it's just that, b.s. denial. These women are just too darn lazy to even have sex. When my wife decided to sit around watching t.v. all day, acting like a demanding queen bee, while I worked my tail off. I decided to get the sex from somewhere else. The one that's putting out is the one that I go out of my way to please with flowers and presents. I avoid the wife like the plague and can't wait to drop the divorce bomb on her. It's a simple equation, No sex=No marriage

 

and don't beat around the bush as to what to do about it......;)

[Minnie09]

You have hit the nail on the head. All the bs about low libido, children, too busy - it's just that, b.s. denial. These women are just too darn lazy to even have sex. When my wife decided to sit around watching t.v. all day, acting like a demanding queen bee, while I worked my tail off. I decided to get the sex from somewhere else. The one that's putting out is the one that I go out of my way to please with flowers and presents. I avoid the wife like the plague and can't wait to drop the divorce bomb on her. It's a simple equation, No sex=No marriage

 

I'm not sure, but I think that's not exactly what TBF meant.