Butterflying Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 If God sacrificed his only son (allowed him to be tortured, cruxified, ect) how could anyone possibly expect God to treat them any better? Christians are really saying "Yay! Some innocent guy was brutally murdered just so I could have a chance at spending an eternity in Heaven with God. And it's really like the lottery. You may not even be perfect enough to go there, in which case, Jesus' death will have been in vain. What a load of crap!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 God didn't sacrifice his son – Jesus stepped up to the plate for us. Huge difference. And when you think about it, that one act of pure love can never, ever be in vain. Much like a parent giving up a kidney for their child, or making sure their babies have food even if it means going without. that kind of love is never, ever in vain, even if you may think it's stupid Link to post Share on other sites
Trojan John Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Riddle me this: A god creates his son, who is also somehow simultaneously himself, on the planet Earth. He knows that he is going to "die" and be resurrected again with all his godly powers. What did he actually sacrifice? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 he said yes. And when you've got tough decisions to make – even if you know the outcome, the fact that you put Self second and others first ... it's a sacrifice. Again, look back to my original example, the parent who goes hungry, knowing he'll suffer but still doing it because it means his kids are cared for. An act of pure love ... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 God didn't sacrifice his son – Jesus stepped up to the plate for us. Huge difference. And when you think about it, that one act of pure love can never, ever be in vain. Much like a parent giving up a kidney for their child, or making sure their babies have food even if it means going without. that kind of love is never, ever in vain, even if you may think it's stupid Yes he did. The Biblical scriptures state Jesus was sent here to sacrifice himself for the sins of others. Allegedly, God created Jesus, placed him directely into Mary's womb to be born into this world and die a real life human death. He is GOD!!!! Damnit!!! Couldn't he have found a better way to forgive poeple's sins than allowing such cruel and unusual occurance? And the worst part is that all sins will not be forgiven. Some people will still die and go to hell (allegedly). So the whole thing was a complete waste!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Riddle me this: A god creates his son, who is also somehow simultaneously himself, on the planet Earth. He knows that he is going to "die" and be resurrected again with all his godly powers. What did he actually sacrifice? My sentiments exactly!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 If God really didn't want anyone to suffer He would simply make the suffering stop. If He really wanted everyone to be "saved" He would simply save them. All that crap about free will and choice is a load of bull!!! If God is really at odds with Satan, and if there is really going to be a war between the two and God is really more powerful and will win, then why is God wasting time with all the sh*t. It's like the world, humans, life, all of this is some kind of game for him. Why the hell should any human care what happens to anyone or anything? God is the Creator, thereby the cause of EVERYTHING and there's nothing anyone can do to stop Him:mad: Link to post Share on other sites
PratyekaYana Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 There are alternative concepts of God aside from the Judeo-Christian themes that you have placed under scrutiny. Though I no longer consider myself a Christian (or any label for that matter), I have found that incorporating some aspects of the eastern, transpersonal Godhead into my overall system of spirituality has done wonders for my appreciation of Christian doctrine. Just a thought. Link to post Share on other sites
Duckduckgoose Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 If you do not subscribe to Christianity that is fine, look into other religion that is more in line with your personal spiritual beliefs. Spirituality is a very important part of being a human. While I do go to a Southern Baptist church I do not believe a lot of what they say... not the parts about an all-powerful God and whatnot, but a lot of Southern Baptist views on the Bible and society in general. On my own I read other texts about other religions, as well as other Christian/Judaic interpretations of the Bible. The Bible is there for you to read and interpret as you will. Keep in mind while it is God's inspired word it was written by humans and there will be contradicting things in it. Let your heart guide you what to believe in it. Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The Bible is there for you to read and interpret as you will. Yup, it is one of the best books I have read, and even as a non believer who considers it as a work of fiction, it carries messages from which we all can learn. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thank God for free will. It's more like thanks for nothing and eveything all at once. And we owe that to ourselves or whatever we choose to believe, or not believe. Link to post Share on other sites
Ms. Joolie Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) I really do like the Jesus story, so I will tell you my take. There was this guy named Jesus, and he was just an ordinary guy at first. However, he preached about doing good to others, and an afterlife and a resurrection. This made him a little weird. He had followers and eventually caused unrest in his community. One day, one of his followers betrayed him and he was turned over to the people. The people condemned him. The people tortured him. The people killed him. Not God. People have free will. And that is what they did. Edited March 19, 2011 by Ms. Joolie Link to post Share on other sites
Crusoe Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It's more like thanks for nothing and eveything all at once. And we owe that to ourselves or whatever we choose to believe, or not believe. Thank those that went before us, and sacrificed, in order that we can have free will. A contradictory thing to say. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Couldn't he have found a better way to forgive poeple's sins than allowing such cruel and unusual occurance? And the worst part is that all sins will not be forgiven. Some people will still die and go to hell (allegedly). So the whole thing was a complete waste!!! All sins have the potential to be forgiven, it's up to us to seek out that forgiveness. People die because they're biologically programmed to die, and those that go to hell do so because they put themselves before God in the choices they make. Theoretically speaking, when they do that, they really don't give a rat's *ss about hell, and it doesn't matter personally to them because they've lived the life they want. And therefore it's not a waste because they did it on their own terms. looking from the outside, we can say what a waste, but since it doesn't matter to the hell-bound person to start with, the point is moot. In other words, if you're not a believer, why even care about God and heaven and hell? They have no real value in the life you choose to lead, so why squawk? or are you trying to make sense of all of this and want to be convinced that it's important? Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 The God threads always seem to take some if the most important cornerstones out and add weird misconceptions in. I believe differently then "mainstream" Christians. I am a Mormon and when asked about things, it usually concerns the weirdest, least used part of any dialogue that was said by some leader's great grandson in 1856 after he left the church and got loaded. Or they ask all about polygamy ( different church!). God and Jesus questions, PM me. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 no white salamander questions? LOL – still trying to figure that one out. back on topic: Look, the relationship with God is a two-way thing just like it is with real people in your life. You want the benefits without doing the work? Then the relationship is one-way, and you're just using the other person for your needs. The whole "going to hell" bit is about stepping up and taking responsibility for your deeds, and for your relationship ... just like ignoring a partner leaves you with a broken relationship, sin creates a broken relationship with God, plain and simple. You can't expect it to be a good relationship in either case if you don't put anything into it but expect all the benefits. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 I really do like the Jesus story, so I will tell you my take. There was this guy named Jesus, and he was just an ordinary guy at first. However, he preached about doing good to others, and an afterlife and a resurrection. This made him a little weird. He had followers and eventually caused unrest in his community. One day, one of his followers betrayed him and he was turned over to the people. The people condemned him. The people tortured him. The people killed him. Not God. People have free will. And that is what they did. Okaaay! Therefore, this ordinary man died for a good cause. But he is really no different than Martin Luther King, Malcom X, or any other revolutionary we've ever known. Except Jesus was smart enough to make people believe he is still living even after he died. And he has special powers. According to some, that cruxifiction was not real. Some claim Jesus faked his death on the cross and went on to live a very long human life. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Butterflying Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 no white salamander questions? LOL – still trying to figure that one out. back on topic: Look, the relationship with God is a two-way thing just like it is with real people in your life. You want the benefits without doing the work? Then the relationship is one-way, and you're just using the other person for your needs. The whole "going to hell" bit is about stepping up and taking responsibility for your deeds, and for your relationship ... just like ignoring a partner leaves you with a broken relationship, sin creates a broken relationship with God, plain and simple. You can't expect it to be a good relationship in either case if you don't put anything into it but expect all the benefits. Not true, sorry. There are people in this world who suffer without having committed any sins at all. Look at those babies who die every day, all those innocent babies and people in Japan right now. And I personally have tried to live according to the Biblical standards and have that relationship with God. You know what happened? Nothing. Still my prayers were unanswered. I even planned to wait until marriage to lose my virginity. By the time I was 25 and still hadn't found that "true man of God," common sense kicked in. Unless I want to risk never having sex my whole life simply because I may never get married, I went on did it before marriage. I'm so glad I stopped waiting for God!! Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 If God sacrificed his only son (allowed him to be tortured, cruxified, ect) how could anyone possibly expect God to treat them any better? Christians are really saying "Yay! Some innocent guy was brutally murdered just so I could have a chance at spending an eternity in Heaven with God. And it's really like the lottery. You may not even be perfect enough to go there, in which case, Jesus' death will have been in vain. What a load of crap!!!! I think you missed the class Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 There are people in this world who suffer without having committed any sins at all. Look at those babies who die every day, all those innocent babies and people in Japan right now. People die, period. It's not the hand of God behind those deaths, just a fact of life. A pure biological equation, if you will. Doesn't matter if you're innocent, if you "deserve" to die, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, death happens when it happens. Not trying to be callous here, just point out an obvious fact that you cannot circumvent death. Which has nothing to do with a mean God or a bad God or a God who turns a blind eye ... death is a given when it comes to human life. personally have tried to live according to the Biblical standards and have that relationship with God. You know what happened? Nothing. I am sorry for your disappointment, really and truly, because I think I can understand now why you feel the way you do. But I am proud of you for questioning all of that, because it's part of the journey. Whether you find a particular conclusion or not, this is all valuable and will get you where you're meant to be. I won't try to convince you by giving you false hope, just say that when you are meant to be at a certain point in this journey, you'll get there. I know ... sounds like hokey bullshxt, but I think down the road, you'll get my drift. Meanwhile, keep searching, and definitely keep questioning! Unless I want to risk never having sex my whole life simply because I may never get married, I went on did it before marriage. I'm so glad I stopped waiting for God!! again, these are highly personal decisions, ones that each of us face, and that are significant in our spiritual journey. Like you, I didn't wait, but not because I didn't want to wait on God, just that I was really, really interested in sex! Sinner, yeah ... but so are a lot of the saints Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Here's what I "believe". I believe that some ancient Jews invented the "god" most people talk about. But for a long time--since Moses--the nature of "god" was one of "repression". The "Commandments" only really say what NOT to do, but they don't say much on what TO DO to be good people and assumedly enjoy god's favor. Stick with me, you might like this. Then some wise person came along and said we need to create an "essence of wisdom" everyone can follow to know how to do righteous things. So, he reasoned that when we face critical decisions in our lives we should take time to remember the past, consider the future and act with spirit of honor in the present. He turned this into sort of oath or pledge and expressed it in male allegory that was typical of the times. Instead of calling the past the past, he called the past "the father". He reasoned that the "future" should then be called "the son". And between past and future in the holy spirit of NOW in which we must act to do honor to the past and future. People repeated this many times in their own languages but the meaning started to be taken "literally" instead of "figuratively". This is how the "trinity" came to be and with it the confusion as to what the "holy spirit is". People just schmoozed over the holy spirit and took this essence of wisdom which was never intended to appeal to or represent "god" and interpreted into the three personages of a "triune god" Christians "believe in" today. In my reasoning there is no truth whatsoever to "god" having a "son" or the son dying for any special reason. There is however great power and meaning in the story of Jesus Christ. We don't know anything for certain about what truly happened in the life and times of Jesus and can not depend upon any translation to reflect exactly what he said or meant. But it was as true then as it is now that what one says is not as important as what one DOES. And what Jesus seems to have DONE is stand alone in the face of two great powers--the Jewish aristocracy and the Roman Empire--and dissent from acquiescence to their beliefs and powers. His was not a message of "super-nature". If it were about "super-nature", he could have flown out of the sky on a golden chariot like everyone expected of a god and just "willed" everyone to behave better. But he was just a man. And his message is one of human beings for human beings by human beings. He performed no miracles--he didn't have to. Braving the forces of earthly authority to change the human condition to one of fellowship and forgiveness was miracle enough. Though his decisions led to his martyrdom on the cross, Jesus Christ the messiah never died and he will never return--because he never left. What he was is what we are. In each of us is the power to encompass the world--to pay dues to the past, to envision the future and act with the essence of wisdom in the times in which we live. And we can only redeem ourselves in the one life we each get. Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 He performed no miracles--he didn't have to. Braving the forces of earthly authority to change the human condition to one of fellowship and forgiveness was miracle enough. Though his decisions led to his martyrdom on the cross, Jesus Christ the messiah never died and he will never return--because he never left. What he was is what we are. In each of us is the power to encompass the world--to pay dues to the past, to envision the future and act with the essence of wisdom in the times in which we live. And we can only redeem ourselves in the one life we each get. That's beautiful. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I like this – he brings out the best in us. Nicely put, Frisky :love: Link to post Share on other sites
Eclypse Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Although I'm fairly neutral on the whole subject a quote from the Simpsons came to mind: If God is all powerful, why does he care if we worship him or not? Link to post Share on other sites
Ross PK Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The God threads always seem to take some if the most important cornerstones out and add weird misconceptions in. I believe differently then "mainstream" Christians. I am a Mormon and when asked about things, it usually concerns the weirdest, least used part of any dialogue that was said by some leader's great grandson in 1856 after he left the church and got loaded. Or they ask all about polygamy ( different church!). God and Jesus questions, PM me. I had no idea you were a Moron. A couple of American Momons over here in the UK tried to snare me about a week ago. Not sure if you've seen my thread on it or not. Link to post Share on other sites
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