Cardio > Lifting

[SmileFace]

I cut back on the cardio in my workouts a while back - only doing 10 minutes of HIIT mostly. However I want to start the couch to 5k program to help obtain my weight lose goals and personal goals. I plan to skip the first couple weeks in the program hopefully it will help my plan to start jogging/running outside - so I am just preparing myself. I am already jogging/running around 6.0-7.0 so I just want to be able to increase my speed and duration

 

Anyway the question is - should I do my cardio before or after my training?

 

When I do cardio before I have trouble reaching my lifting goals - since I am fatigued but I also face the same problem when I lift before. I just want to know which one is better or people opinions.

 

This my sample workout schedule

 

Sunday: Rest

Monday: Train/Cardio

Tuesday: Pilates

Wednesday: Train/Cardio

Thursday: Plyometrics

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Train/Cardio

Edited March 19, 2011 by SmileFace

[tman666]

Well, it depends on what kind of lifting goals you have. If you're trying to maximize strength and hypertrophy, then you'll want to back off on the high intensity cardio even more, and stick to low intensity, long duration cardio (such as moderate rowing, walking, etc.).

 

High intensity cardio is very hard of the Central Nervous System (CNS). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can interfere with high intensity lifting (also hard on the CNS) and your recovery.

 

If your goal is to maintain strength and lose fat, my recommendation would be that you do daily, brisk walks for about 45 minutes while in a fasted state (i.e. before you've eaten anything for the day). If you typically eat breakfast, do this before you eat. In a fasted state, your body has a much easier time mobilizing fat stores and burning them as fuel.

 

Doing this should leave you fresh enough to lift hard later in the day.

 

Read this : http://www.ampedtraining.com/2009/fat-loss/fat-loss-running

[Chocolat]

I agree with TMan that fasted cardio is best.

 

If you can't do that and have to do weights and cardio in the same session, lift first. Lifting will burn through your muscle glycogen so that your cardio session burns fat. Reversing the order means you'll use the glycogen on cardio but you can't fuel lifting with fat, so you'll just catabolise muscle (protein) to fuel your lifting.

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

Sorry to OP for the threadjack in advance. . .

 

When working out first thing in the morning, I always found that a small (100-200 calorie range) snack wakes up my metabolism... Good examples of what I am referring to could include cottage cheese with a little fruit, or maybe a Larabar, an apple, or a banana, or even a small-medium serving of shredded wheat with non-fat milk. I read many years ago in Bob Greene's book this suggestion and it has stuck with me ever since.

 

Are the other posters in this thread stating that I would be better to have that small snack immediately post workout, and working out in a fasted state is better for fat burn? Keep in mind I am currently 255lbs, with a fair bit of muscle, but quite a bit of excess fat also. I believe a typical workout for me burns 500-1000 calories depending on duration and intensity. My calorie intake ranges between 2000-2500 calories daily, so my current pre-workout snack is only 5-8% of my entire day's intake, and likely not even half of my calorie burn on an easier workout day. I do genuinely feel I workout stronger when I have this snack either pre-workout, or even midworkout (like a banana between the cardio/lifting).

 

My wife's nutritionist stated to her that a banana pre-workout is probably one of the worst choices she could make. Post workout, or after it would be OK, as there is no risk of crashing during the workout (from the brief sugar high ending).

 

Lastly, to the OP, I have always preceded my lifting with cardio first, but do feel that this would not be the best method if my foremost goal was to build muscle as much as possible (hypertrophy). The only other mix up I do is half my cardio, followed by weight training, then the other half of my cardio after.

 

Would love to read more thoughts on this...

[SmileFace]

Thanks for the replies and no worry on the thread jacking - I can learn from your question as well.

 

So, I asked a friend today which should come first. He said cardio - since you want your heart rate up and that you can't achieve this with lifting. I have lost a more significant amount from weight lifting than I did doing cardio. I also don't agree that the body actually needs cardio to lose weight because I am pretty sure I can get my heart rate up from lifting. However he probably was just referring to losing pounds which isn't my only goal.Anyway

 

I am going to stick with lifting first, then cardio. Only because my gym doesn't accommodate my time schedule to split my works during the day. I usually work out on an empty stomach since I do work out early. Usually have some hot water just so my stomach could handle the cold water so early in the morning.As for as what I am doing as training - I am following NROLFW.

[Chocolat]

Thanks for the replies and no worry on the thread jacking - I can learn from your question as well.

 

So, I asked a friend today which should come first. He said cardio - since you want your heart rate up and that you can't achieve this with lifting. I have lost a more significant amount from weight lifting than I did doing cardio. I also don't agree that the body actually needs cardio to lose weight because I am pretty sure I can get my heart rate up from lifting. However he probably was just referring to losing pounds which isn't my only goal.Anyway

 

I am going to stick with lifting first, then cardio. Only because my gym doesn't accommodate my time schedule to split my works during the day. I usually work out on an empty stomach since I do work out early. Usually have some hot water just so my stomach could handle the cold water so early in the morning.As for as what I am doing as training - I am following NROLFW.

 

Hi SF. I am glad you are not listening to your friend! I think you have a good plan. NROLW is a great plan and I believe you will find your heart-rate elevated during several of the workouts! You are also correct that it is better to lose fat than weight.

 

Good luck with your program!

[confusio]

I cut back on the cardio in my workouts a while back - only doing 10 minutes of HIIT mostly. However I want to start the couch to 5k program to help obtain my weight lose goals and personal goals.

 

I find that those couch to 5k program have a very slow progression. If you start being serious with your cardio / running, your stamina will improve very fast, and you will reach 10k in no time. I would try at least a 10k program so you don't get bored after 2 weeks.

[tman666]

Sorry to OP for the threadjack in advance. . .

 

When working out first thing in the morning, I always found that a small (100-200 calorie range) snack wakes up my metabolism... Good examples of what I am referring to could include cottage cheese with a little fruit, or maybe a Larabar, an apple, or a banana, or even a small-medium serving of shredded wheat with non-fat milk. I read many years ago in Bob Greene's book this suggestion and it has stuck with me ever since.

 

Are the other posters in this thread stating that I would be better to have that small snack immediately post workout, and working out in a fasted state is better for fat burn? Keep in mind I am currently 255lbs, with a fair bit of muscle, but quite a bit of excess fat also. I believe a typical workout for me burns 500-1000 calories depending on duration and intensity. My calorie intake ranges between 2000-2500 calories daily, so my current pre-workout snack is only 5-8% of my entire day's intake, and likely not even half of my calorie burn on an easier workout day. I do genuinely feel I workout stronger when I have this snack either pre-workout, or even midworkout (like a banana between the cardio/lifting).

 

My wife's nutritionist stated to her that a banana pre-workout is probably one of the worst choices she could make. Post workout, or after it would be OK, as there is no risk of crashing during the workout (from the brief sugar high ending).

 

Lastly, to the OP, I have always preceded my lifting with cardio first, but do feel that this would not be the best method if my foremost goal was to build muscle as much as possible (hypertrophy). The only other mix up I do is half my cardio, followed by weight training, then the other half of my cardio after.

 

Would love to read more thoughts on this...

 

Again, it depends on your goals on which protocol is better. If your goal is to maximize strength and muscle gain, proper pre-workout nutrition is important.

 

The reason fasted cardio works so well is because liver glycogen is nearly depleted after a period of fasting. For most people, this occurs first thing in the morning. In a fasted state, the body has a much easier time entering lipolysis (the breaking down of stored fat). Leptin is lowered after a fast (leptin and the body's "desire" to store fat are directly related).

 

When you eat, even something small, you trigger your body's insulin response. When insulin is released, it stops the body's use of fat as fuel, and switches to primarily sugar sources (from the food you just ate). It also stores excess energy in the form of either liver glycogen, muscle glycogen, or adipose tissue (fat). Insulin is not a good or bad hormone, in fact, it's an extremely powerful growth hormone. The problem is that it's just as good at putting fat on you as it is muscle.

 

To mitigate this, the timing of your meals has an effect on how the energy from your food is used and stored. After intense exercise, muscle glycogen and liver glycogen are at a low point. This makes it an optimal time for carbohydrate and protein intake.

 

For muscle gain, eating before, after, and even during a workout can help maximize growth potential (along with intense stimuli). Peri-workout nutrition is, in my opinion, not the most practical of things, but to each their own.

 

For fat loss, fasted low intensity, long duration (such as a 45 minute walk in a fasted state) is one of the most optimal ways to mobilize stored fat and use it as fuel. Low intensity is optimal for the preservation of muscle mass and for the low impact it has on the CNS, which plays a huge role in recovery and performance.

[tman666]

Thanks for the replies and no worry on the thread jacking - I can learn from your question as well.

 

So, I asked a friend today which should come first. He said cardio - since you want your heart rate up and that you can't achieve this with lifting. I have lost a more significant amount from weight lifting than I did doing cardio. I also don't agree that the body actually needs cardio to lose weight because I am pretty sure I can get my heart rate up from lifting. However he probably was just referring to losing pounds which isn't my only goal.Anyway

 

I am going to stick with lifting first, then cardio. Only because my gym doesn't accommodate my time schedule to split my works during the day. I usually work out on an empty stomach since I do work out early. Usually have some hot water just so my stomach could handle the cold water so early in the morning.As for as what I am doing as training - I am following NROLFW.

 

NROLFW is a pretty solid book, so it sounds like you're off to a good start.

 

Hate to say it, but I don't think your friends well intentioned advice is going to help you (or anyone for that matter). Lifting doesn't get your heart rate up??? Wat?

 

You're correct in saying that cardio is not a necessity for fat loss. It can certainly help, if applied properly, but it's all too often overblown and misused. There are many, many people who have obtained and maintained great physiques without doing a ton of cardio. A person can go a long way maintaining a prolonged slight caloric deficit (or surplus for muscle gain), arming themselves with the basics of macro-nutrition, and training hard with the goal of long term progression.

[SleeplessRomantic]

Here's an example from my life that just occurred. I hit up Starbucks every morning before class for a tall coffee. If it is cold I usually leave the car running to stay warm. For whatever freakin’ reason, I locked the keys in my car with it running. So without hesitating I took off running because I knew I wasn’t far from my house. I had Lugz boots on, jeans and a button up shirt with a jacket…. Hardly training attire. My running pace was as hard as I felt I needed to go to get me to the house, grab the spare key and get back so I could make my 9 AM class that I could not miss. There is no sidewalk so I was off road for 75% of the route and it was bumpy, grassy, limbs, mud, gravel, rocks, pretty much anything but level.

 

 

Once I got to the house on the way back, I took a shortcut or what I thought would be one. It wasn’t, but further extended my run which now had turned into a faster pace because I lost time which was growing short.

I made it to my car, lungs not burning too badly, about what one could expect from fresh air training and a 30 degree nip in the air, sweating nicely, which felt good in jeans and my feet had blisters on them I could not see but feel. I expected maybe a little soreness in my ankles and feet from the boots which are not geared for running, some leg soreness because I haven’t run a distance like that in over a year or so. And I measured it off with my car – it was 3.1 miles total. I had zero soreness on a scale of 0-10. I didn’t blow out a knee, get plantar fasciitis, tendonitis, Achilles issues, didn’t have a heart attack, no fractures, rolled ankles, etc.

Point of my story, I have not run in over a year. I do not stretch before training nor did I do any type of stretching before attempting my run which according to my rolly polly fitness gurus you must do before every activity or you will most certainly die from tightness from poor performing muscles. I did not go buy the proper running shoes or what one would think is proper for that activity. I did not have an adequate water supply to replenish my fluids which again, according to the professionals you must have otherwise you will just pass out from dehydration.

 

 

But what I have done is train in extension of every limb using only my body weight and antagonist firing as the stimulus or load and maybe a 3-pound dumbbell. I have trained close to every day, something done every day whether it’s a full program or RDL’s in the shower. I have eliminated stretching completely. I have eliminated traditional forms of cardiovascular exercise completely (i.e jogging, biking, spinning, ellipticals or steppers). I haven’t iced anything in a couple of years. I wear a shoe that has very little sole to it at all which keeps my feet as strong as they were meant to be. When I train I try to make every move and every hold as intense as I can for that particular day (this is not all the time, but I’d say over 90% of the time over the last seven years).

 

 

In other words I have trained to survive life and when life tried to throw me a curveball I handled it. How many of you have handled the curveballs life has thrown you? I have heard a lot of injuries from loading Christmas trees at a charity drive, tendonitis from the occasional paddle game, plantar fasciitis from walking the lake with someone special, a broken wrist from tripping and falling on ice.

 

 

Life is going to try to attack your body with force, gravity, steps, doors, people. This force will never stop coming at you. It is constant – let’s agree on that. What is not constant is your body’s strength or its ability to maintain lean mass. Over time the hormones responsible for keeping lean mass on you will plummet; elasticity will lessen. We must, must, must stay as strong as possible throughout the greatest range of motion for the rest of our lives because life’s forces will not stop coming for us. Accidents unt us down. All we can do is prepare and when that time comes, meet it head on and laugh as you push right through it with ease with no physical repercussions.

 

 

I’ve been asking a lot of people lately why they would ever suggest to someone to train and exercise. The answers are always to be skinny or lean or have nice arms or abs or whatever. This is dead wrong. The main purpose of training is for function, to survive life. To keep your body as able as it can be for as long as it can be able. If a lean, sculpted body is your dream, then eat more fat, more protein from animal sources and eat more carbs from only fruits and vegetables and you won’t be able to keep fat on you for hibernation purposes.

 

 

Train to survive and eat to live. If you meet one of these unexpected life forces and it beats you and you get injured, then you either aren’t training hard enough to create enough adaptation necessary for your demands or your training system is dog ****. My bet is that both are true.

[tman666]

Here's an example from my life that just occurred. I hit up Starbucks every morning before class for a tall coffee. If it is cold I usually leave the car running to stay warm. For whatever freakin’ reason, I locked the keys in my car with it running. So without hesitating I took off running because I knew I wasn’t far from my house. I had Lugz boots on, jeans and a button up shirt with a jacket…. Hardly training attire. My running pace was as hard as I felt I needed to go to get me to the house, grab the spare key and get back so I could make my 9 AM class that I could not miss. There is no sidewalk so I was off road for 75% of the route and it was bumpy, grassy, limbs, mud, gravel, rocks, pretty much anything but level.

 

 

Once I got to the house on the way back, I took a shortcut or what I thought would be one. It wasn’t, but further extended my run which now had turned into a faster pace because I lost time which was growing short.

I made it to my car, lungs not burning too badly, about what one could expect from fresh air training and a 30 degree nip in the air, sweating nicely, which felt good in jeans and my feet had blisters on them I could not see but feel. I expected maybe a little soreness in my ankles and feet from the boots which are not geared for running, some leg soreness because I haven’t run a distance like that in over a year or so. And I measured it off with my car – it was 3.1 miles total. I had zero soreness on a scale of 0-10. I didn’t blow out a knee, get plantar fasciitis, tendonitis, Achilles issues, didn’t have a heart attack, no fractures, rolled ankles, etc.

Point of my story, I have not run in over a year. I do not stretch before training nor did I do any type of stretching before attempting my run which according to my rolly polly fitness gurus you must do before every activity or you will most certainly die from tightness from poor performing muscles. I did not go buy the proper running shoes or what one would think is proper for that activity. I did not have an adequate water supply to replenish my fluids which again, according to the professionals you must have otherwise you will just pass out from dehydration.

 

 

But what I have done is train in extension of every limb using only my body weight and antagonist firing as the stimulus or load and maybe a 3-pound dumbbell. I have trained close to every day, something done every day whether it’s a full program or RDL’s in the shower. I have eliminated stretching completely. I have eliminated traditional forms of cardiovascular exercise completely (i.e jogging, biking, spinning, ellipticals or steppers). I haven’t iced anything in a couple of years. I wear a shoe that has very little sole to it at all which keeps my feet as strong as they were meant to be. When I train I try to make every move and every hold as intense as I can for that particular day (this is not all the time, but I’d say over 90% of the time over the last seven years).

 

 

In other words I have trained to survive life and when life tried to throw me a curveball I handled it. How many of you have handled the curveballs life has thrown you? I have heard a lot of injuries from loading Christmas trees at a charity drive, tendonitis from the occasional paddle game, plantar fasciitis from walking the lake with someone special, a broken wrist from tripping and falling on ice.

 

 

Life is going to try to attack your body with force, gravity, steps, doors, people. This force will never stop coming at you. It is constant – let’s agree on that. What is not constant is your body’s strength or its ability to maintain lean mass. Over time the hormones responsible for keeping lean mass on you will plummet; elasticity will lessen. We must, must, must stay as strong as possible throughout the greatest range of motion for the rest of our lives because life’s forces will not stop coming for us. Accidents unt us down. All we can do is prepare and when that time comes, meet it head on and laugh as you push right through it with ease with no physical repercussions.

 

 

I’ve been asking a lot of people lately why they would ever suggest to someone to train and exercise. The answers are always to be skinny or lean or have nice arms or abs or whatever. This is dead wrong. The main purpose of training is for function, to survive life. To keep your body as able as it can be for as long as it can be able. If a lean, sculpted body is your dream, then eat more fat, more protein from animal sources and eat more carbs from only fruits and vegetables and you won’t be able to keep fat on you for hibernation purposes.

 

 

Train to survive and eat to live. If you meet one of these unexpected life forces and it beats you and you get injured, then you either aren’t training hard enough to create enough adaptation necessary for your demands or your training system is dog ****. My bet is that both are true.

 

I'm all for training with a specific purpose in mind, even if that specific purpose it to become more "functional" in broad terms, but how are fat loss and muscle gain goals "dead wrong"? For that matter, why is the pursuit of any fitness related goal wrong, in your eyes?

 

You say that you train to handle anything life throws at you. Can you run 26 miles? No? Your training system must be dog ****. Can you deadlift 500 lbs? No? Your training system must be dog ****. Are you able to dunk a basketball? Can you run a sub-5 second 40 yd dash? Can you pitch a 90 mph fastball? How would you do in a natural bodybuilding contest? Did you get injured from something high impact like playing football or being in a skiing accident? Well then! Your training system is most certainly dog ****, I say!

 

Where I'm going with this is that generalized "functional" training is great and all, but only to a point. There comes a point that in order to get better at something you have to sacrifice certain goals to be able to achieve others. Not all goals are infinitely cotangent.

 

That's not to say that training to be fairly good at most activities in a bad goal. For most people, this satisfies most of their needs and desires regarding fitness.

 

You seem to be claiming that your daily, lifestyle oriented, functional training has somehow turned you into an injury free, superhuman, evolutionary marvel.

 

Congratulations on running 3 whole, entire miles without having a heart attack or blowing out a knee, by the way.