_For those who can't get dates in their late 20s, 30s and 40s

[somedude81]

I like that this thread is actual problem-solving. Nice. Wanted to chime in real quick on somedude's woes here. . .

 

 

 

I kind of can understand where this is a difficult thing if you don't already have it down because there's a danger of being too subtle (she doesn't even know you're interested) and a danger of coming on too strong (she thinks you're some jerk who's just trying to sleep with you) and I've had guys miss out on going out with me, who I'd otherwise go out with (though I have no evidence any of the "too strong" guys weren't jerks so maybe they all were, as I'll cut off all contact at "too strong"), because of these things.

When I was younger I definitely came on too strong. Or more accurately I came on too needy.

 

So I countered that be being really subtle but then girls don't have any idea I'm interested in them, which sticks me into the friendzone.

 

but he conveyed it well by saying I was "(cute too)" -- after a list of other things he'd liked about me -- in parenthesis, buried in a message that wasn't really about attraction at all. I think that's a good metaphor for how you have to note sexual attraction in a girl.

 

Mentioning it outright will often be kind of creepy, but not if you do it in a parenthetical way. Honestly, telling a girl WHY you like her is a powerful thing. "Hey, you seem really cool, it's awesome that you're into scuba diving -- I wanted to look into getting certified myself -- and you're also really cute. We should go out sometime!" She's either going to get the hint or she's a complete idiot and why are you interested?!?!? ETA: By a parenthetical way, I mean don't make asking her out ALL about her being cute, as many women (myself included) will take umbrage to that and be offended. Find something else, anything else, as a reason you're into her as well but feel free to mention she's cute. If that sounds overly complicated, it's because in this particular instance, women are crazy. I admit it.

I'm going to try throwing in the "cute too" and similar stuff. I've been really afraid to mention that I was attracted to a girls appearance. Mainly because I was afraid that a girl wouldn't appreciate it and think that I'm shallow.

 

The issue is that leaves you wide open for rejection. I understand that. But the truth is that being clear in your interest always does. It must be hard after so many rejections (I've certainly been rejected, but a mix of rejection and success is of course different; you learn that the rejections are just jolts on the way to success), but I find most constantly rejected people really do reject themselves in their own minds before they ever give the other person the chance to do so. I was like that with friends (dates were always easier than friends for me when I was young) for a long time before I grew out of it.

You're right that a mix of rejection and success is vastly different from a rejections. The best way to sum up how I feel is that after losing on so many occasions, I don't know if it's even possible to win.

 

Granted I still try with girls, but I give up very easily with the vast majority of them. Something else that's starting to happen is that I'm becoming bitter. I don't want to be that way, but it just happens.

 

 

Women absolutely do this. But it doesn't mean it's a irreversible thing. I've known tons of guys I've changed that initial opinion about, for better or worse. And I'm probably one of the less changeable women. So don't get all psyched out about it.

OK so it's not an unchanging thing?

 

From what I've heard, if a girl is not interested in a guy, then she never will be. It would be great if that's not correct.

[zengirl]

When I was younger I definitely came on too strong. Or more accurately I came on too needy.

 

So I countered that be being really subtle but then girls don't have any idea I'm interested in them, which sticks me into the friendzone.

 

To me, the friendzone is like an orbiter situation. If someone wants orbiters, it isn't really going to matter what you do --- you're not getting through that barrier. However, there have been times when a guy never asked me out and I wish he would've that I heard about ages later (and then either went out with him if I was available at the time or told him I totally would've gone out with him!). That doesn't happen to me much now because I'm not shy anymore, but a lot of girls are. So, it depends what you mean by friendzoning. . . . if a girl is consciously trying to put you in an orbiter position, that's lame. And if she really wants to be friends but you're not down with that, you should just be honest, because that just gets weird. But there are totally times when both parties are just not clear enough with each other about their interest.

 

OK so it's not an unchanging thing?

 

From what I've heard, if a girl is not interested in a guy, then she never will be. It would be great if that's not correct.

 

If a girl knows you and she's not interested, it's not likely to change. And attraction on some levels is not super likely to change (though that varies by woman). But I've definitely re-assessed, for better or worse, whether someone was BF material. I don't tend to re-assess attraction personally (it may grow or be stifled, but if there's 0% nil none, there will never be any) but I know some girls that do. That really depends on how open they are in the first place I think. I'm pretty open, so I don't usually miss a potentially good guy, but I wasn't always so open.

 

I would never wait around HOPING someone would change, but I don't think most girls are literally writing you off in the first 5 minutes, no.

[somedude81]

For me, friendzone has always been where a girl only thinks of me as a friend and doesn't "like me like that."

 

What usually happened is that I waited too long to let my interest be known and the girl has already made up her mind about me. Thinking of me just as a friend. In most situations I had no interest in a platonic only friendship and we just stopped talking.

 

That's why I made my previous comment about ways to let my interest be known before the girl places me in the 'friend only' box.

 

I'm also trying to avoid getting an early rejection. It sucks getting rejected before somebody actually gets to know me. All she would be doing is basing it on my appearance, or more specifically, my short height and that's simply not fair.

[zengirl]

For me, friendzone has always been where a girl only thinks of me as a friend and doesn't "like me like that."

 

What usually happened is that I waited too long to let my interest be known and the girl has already made up her mind about me. Thinking of me just as a friend. In most situations I had no interest in a platonic only friendship and we just stopped talking.

 

That's why I made my previous comment about ways to let my interest be known before the girl places me in the 'friend only' box.

 

I'm also trying to avoid getting an early rejection. It sucks getting rejected before somebody actually gets to know me. All she would be doing is basing it on my appearance, or more specifically, my short height and that's simply not fair.

 

In my opinion, that doesn't really happen. A girl never likes you less because you waited too long to ask her out. A girl who likes you will be super excited to go out with you (provided she's still available) once she hears you were interested. So those girls likely never saw you as a romantic prospect, period.

 

That said, especially with younger girls, there are ways to build romantic rapport early on, and I think it's the combination of positive attention and then sitting back and so on. It's a lame act, though. But if you just need a taste of some success, it's not a terrible place to start, provided you do sincerely like the girl and aren't just being a douchebag about it. In that cases, giving some romantic interest immediately, but then simply treating her as a friend for a bit might make some girls go, "WTH? I thought he liked me?!?" and then get all worked up about it. It's definitely not the way to a solid relationship, in most cases, but it could be the way to a little gateway success. Again, try not to become a douchebag about it, because then actually cool girls will realize that and not like you for it. This technique wouldn't work on me now because I've got a lot of dating experience, but it'd work on girls who are 'just starting out' or still unsure of themselves. I don't really endorse it in most cases, but you seem like a nice person who's just piled under crappy luck.

[EasyHeart]

Yeah, I'm getting better at conversation, but that isn't the witty banter Duckduckgoose was talking about.

 

How do I start learning how to do that?

Banter is a form of comedy, and like all comedy it's about timing, timing & timing. And if you can get a woman laughing, she's 90% yours.

 

I don't know if you can learn to banter or if it's just an aspect of personality, but I'd suggest you start by watching some of the great "bantering" TV shows, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars (any other suggestions, ladies?) and see how it's done. Pay attention to the rhythm and the subject they joke about. You aren't trying to memorize lines or anything like that, it's more about rhythm, tone and style. And if you really want to go hardcore, watch some "screwball" movies from the 1930s and 40s. The screenwriting back then was incredible, and there's a reason Cary Grant and Clark Gable and William Powell are legends.

 

Then practice. Not just on women, but on everyone. Banter with your friends and your family and cashiers and waitresses and co-workers and people on the elevator and people at the bus stop and everywhere else. After a while, it will be a lot easier.

 

I'm not sure what you're conversing about with women, but whatever it is keep it light. Your goal isn't to interrogate or impress them. Your only goal on the first few dates is to make them laugh. If a woman is laughing, she's having fun, and she's probably going to like you!

[zengirl]

Banter is a form of comedy, and like all comedy it's about timing, timing & timing. And if you can get a woman laughing, she's 90% yours.

 

I don't know if you can learn to banter or if it's just an aspect of personality, but I'd suggest you start by watching some of the great "bantering" TV shows, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars (any other suggestions, ladies?) and see how it's done. Pay attention to the rhythm and the subject they joke about. You aren't trying to memorize lines or anything like that, it's more about rhythm, tone and style. And if you really want to go hardcore, watch some "screwball" movies from the 1930s and 40s. The screenwriting back then was incredible, and there's a reason Cary Grant and Clark Gable and William Powell are legends.

 

Then practice. Not just on women, but on everyone. Banter with your friends and your family and cashiers and waitresses and co-workers and people on the elevator and people at the bus stop and everywhere else. After a while, it will be a lot easier.

 

I'm not sure what you're conversing about with women, but whatever it is keep it light. Your goal isn't to interrogate or impress them. Your only goal on the first few dates is to make them laugh. If a woman is laughing, she's having fun, and she's probably going to like you!

 

British comedy has great banter. Basically any British comedy show (sitcom or sketch) or something like the HBO show Episodes or Extras. Firefly is all banter and maybe a little more 'masculine' than your choices.

 

They say a laugh is the closest thing to an orgasm you can have in public.

 

Another suggestion for timing is a lot of cities have improv comedy classes through local troupes. It's a great way to meet people and also improve your social skills, I think. I've done it (and even done improv onstage, which is a blast) for years in different cities. Lots of dorky, otherwise unattractive guys in improv that get girls. (Improv is nothing like standup which requires you be all judgy and write material and stuff, and which I don't think helps as much, frankly. Improv is all about being in the moment and just being totally comfortable with what you're saying and connecting to the people in front of you.) But that's my little PSA.

[EasyHeart]

British comedy has great banter. Basically any British comedy show (sitcom or sketch) or something like the HBO show Episodes or Extras. Firefly is all banter and maybe a little more 'masculine' than your choices.

"Firefly" is the greatest 13-episode show in television history!!! "Castle" is a pretty good example, too (I'm not gay, but Nathan Fillion makes me think about it . . . ). And "Psych". And "White Collar". Lots of good choices!!!

 

 

They say a laugh is the closest thing to an orgasm you can have in public.

I wish you hadn't told me this. I'm going to be feeling a little awkward tomorrow morning when I joke around with the little old ladies in my building. . . .

[somedude81]

In my opinion, that doesn't really happen. A girl never likes you less because you waited too long to ask her out. A girl who likes you will be super excited to go out with you (provided she's still available) once she hears you were interested. So those girls likely never saw you as a romantic prospect, period.

Eh, your probably right...

 

I guess I was just fooling myself into believing that girls I'd spent time with may have liked me and that I might have had a chance. But no, they never liked me and a relationship was never a possibility. So all I've been doing is wasting my time getting to know girls. And of course the current girl I'm spending time with feels the same way all the others did. It's foolish to think that she will eventually fall for me.

 

BTW, anybody know how to tie a hangman's noose?

[zengirl]

Eh, your probably right...

 

I guess I was just fooling myself into believing that girls I'd spent time with may have liked me and that I might have had a chance. But no, they never liked me and a relationship was never a possibility. So all I've been doing is wasting my time getting to know girls. And of course the current girl I'm spending time with feels the same way all the others did. It's foolish to think that she will eventually fall for me.

 

BTW, anybody know how to tie a hangman's noose?

 

Aw, I didn't mean it to sound hopeless. I do think some girls out there will like you. But you're setting yourself up to be an orbiter in those situations. Maybe you just pick the wrong girls.

[EasyHeart]

BTW, anybody know how to tie a hangman's noose?

http://www.realknots.com/knots/noose.htm

 

But I think your time would be better spent on practicing your banter!

[zengirl]

Also: it's kind of a numbers game. Pouring time an energy into someone who isn't into you isn't really a good idea. I think co-ed friendships are great, but don't get to know a girl because you think she'll realize she likes you. That CAN happen but I'd never count on it.

[somedude81]

I'm sure you didn't, but that's just how I interpreted it.

 

Frankly I get by, by living in a state of denial. It's the only way I can cope.

 

And I'm just so tired of trying to get by.

[Queen Zenobia]

At this point I think I'd date whoever would have me.

 

You need to get out of this mindset. If you continue thinking this way you WILL be taken advantage of. Although it's usually guys who get a bad reputation for preying on insecure women, women can prey on insecure men too. Seriously, you need to start realizing your own value.

[AD1980]

You need to get out of this mindset. If you continue thinking this way you WILL be taken advantage of. Although it's usually guys who get a bad reputation for preying on insecure women, women can prey on insecure men too. Seriously, you need to start realizing your own value.

 

He may be a little extreme but people who arent as attratcive or wanted by the opposite sex cant afford to be as picky as people who are in high demand its just reality

[Queen Zenobia]

He may be a little extreme but people who arent as attratcive or wanted by the opposite sex cant afford to be as picky as people who are in high demand its just reality

 

I highly doubt any of you look like the elephant man, or the toxic waste guy from Robocop. I'm sure he's attractive enough to be reasonably selective.

[zengirl]

somedude81 isn't exactly holding out for supermodels. He seems to have reasonable standards, and I'm sure he can eventually find more success. Though probably needs more than tips on a board can give him, sadly. A long history of failure is kind of like carrying around chains all day---you need to somehow get those chains off first. And I'm certainly not qualified to tell someone how to do that. I think it's totally do-able, and I can think of things that "might" work, whether they be banter or therapy or whatnot. But I'm definitely sympathetic.

 

I don't think him dropping all his standards would help his self-esteem or help get those chains off though, and I doubt his looks are really the problem. Plenty of guys and gals who aren't lookers find love and plenty who are don't. It's more his experiences that are holding him back, each rejection compounding the last. But settling for someone he isn't into sets him up for worse: at best, it's self-rejection ("I can't do any better even though I don't like her") and at worst, it allows someone he doesn't even like to reject him! That's the worst. After all, it's not like once he lowers his standards, those girls would magically get the memo: "I'm too good for you so you better like me."

 

That said, I think somedude81 can do it and have a great relationship someday. I really do.

[AD1980]

I highly doubt any of you look like the elephant man, or the toxic waste guy from Robocop. I'm sure he's attractive enough to be reasonably selective.

 

How do you know? If some of us havent attracted a women this late in life nor ever tried to be set up or have a women show interest chances are theres not allot out there for us and our choices are limited

[Queen Zenobia]

somedude81 isn't exactly holding out for supermodels. He seems to have reasonable standards, and I'm sure he can eventually find more success. Though probably needs more than tips on a board can give him, sadly. A long history of failure is kind of like carrying around chains all day---you need to somehow get those chains off first. And I'm certainly not qualified to tell someone how to do that. I think it's totally do-able, and I can think of things that "might" work, whether they be banter or therapy or whatnot. But I'm definitely sympathetic.

 

I don't think him dropping all his standards would help his self-esteem or help get those chains off though, and I doubt his looks are really the problem. Plenty of guys and gals who aren't lookers find love and plenty who are don't. It's more his experiences that are holding him back, each rejection compounding the last. But settling for someone he isn't into sets him up for worse: at best, it's self-rejection ("I can't do any better even though I don't like her") and at worst, it allows someone he doesn't even like to reject him! That's the worst. After all, it's not like once he lowers his standards, those girls would magically get the memo: "I'm too good for you so you better like me."

 

That said, I think somedude81 can do it and have a great relationship someday. I really do.

 

I have seen a picture of somedude (he had a thread about his attractiveness not too long ago) and he really isn't a bad looking guy.

 

I don't think I've seen somedude have any inclinations towards lowering his standards, I was referring to 49322 who expressed as much (I suppose he and somedude are in similar situations?).

[Queen Zenobia]

How do you know? If some of us havent attracted a women this late in life nor ever tried to be set up or have a women show interest chances are theres not allot out there for us and our choices are limited

 

I've seen a picture of somedude, he's not a bad looking guy. And I don't know about 49322 or you for that matter, but statistically that level of unattractiveness (literally looking like the elephant man) is extremely rare. Besides, even unattractive people find dates. That's almost certainly not the problem here.

[somedude81]

Aye, many people have seen a pic of me, with the girl I'm currently pursuing. It's already been established that I'm not a bad looking guy nor was she out of my league.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty much out of ideas except for asking out every woman I see that I'm remotely attracted to. Isn't that what the numbers game is? I just can't see what the will be any more worthwhile than actually getting to know a girl and letting her get to know me a bit before I ask her out. Frankly by asking out a girl really early, my only motivation would be to have sex with her. And that doesn't really drive me. Also I just can't think of a reason why a girl would agree to a date with a guy she doesn't know.

Edited July 22, 2011 by somedude81

[krz12]

Frankly by asking out a girl really early, my only motivation would be to have sex with her.

 

There are plenty of guys who are actually like that who get laid.

[zengirl]

Aye, many people have seen a pic of me, with the girl I'm currently pursuing. It's already been established that I'm not a bad looking guy nor was she out of my league.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty much out of ideas except for asking out every woman I see that I'm remotely attracted to. Isn't that what the numbers game is? I just can't see what the will be any more worthwhile than actually getting to know a girl and letting her get to know me a bit before I ask her out. Frankly by asking out a girl really early, my only motivation would be to have sex with her. And that doesn't really drive me. Also I just can't think of a reason why a girl would agree to a date with a guy she doesn't know.

 

I don't know if college has changed a lot or something but asking a girl out early does not = just wants to get laid. I agree to dates primarily with guys I don't yet know. . . because if I know a guy, we've either already dated or decided we didn't want to date or whatever. (But I'm older. It's weird at my age to get to know a guy in some kind of quasi-romantic way, I think. Or maybe I'm just too direct.) I don't sleep with them or anything! Don't even tend to kiss on most first dates. A "date" is just a planned opportunity to get to know someone under romantic circumstances.

 

I don't think getting to know someone in a friend way necessarily hurts your chances (I wouldn't NOT go out with a guy because I've hung out with him a few times in a friendly way or anything), personally, but I do think it winds up hurting your self esteem because you invest in these women and then the rejection seems greater, because you're busy thinking of all these reasons the person is right for you (because you're actually getting to know them) and investing energy in them, only to have it fizz out.

[Floridaman]

I don't know if college has changed a lot or something but asking a girl out early does not = just wants to get laid.

 

I agree to dates primarily with guys I don't yet know. . . because if I know a guy, we've either already dated or decided we didn't want to date or whatever. (But I'm older. It's weird at my age to get to know a guy in some kind of quasi-romantic way, I think. Or maybe I'm just too direct.)

 

I don't sleep with them or anything!

Don't even tend to kiss on most first dates. A "date" is just a planned opportunity to get to know someone under romantic circumstances.

 

That's sensible.

No problem on the early kissing, though, like you, I tended to hold off on such moves until both of us were more comfortable with each other, usually by the second or third date.

 

Holding off on the sex is wise.

Getting too sexually involved too soon can often jeopardize what could have been a great relationship. Speaking from experience here.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

Posted this elsewhere but think it can help some shy guys.

 

Are you saying I should ask somebody out after having one conversation?

 

Yes !!!

Start getting out of your "comfort zone."

If you see a woman that interests you, you can start a conversation as I related in that "cold-call."

 

As I was beginnng to get more aggressive and do bolder things in terms of meeting women (like asking them out shortly after meeting them), did some "cold-calling" with a woman I saw sitting in the chairs between night grad school classes when I was 27.

Said to myself, "I gotta start making some moves" ... so took the plunge.

 

Initiated some conversation on why she was there, what classes/ field of study, what she likes about her field, etc.

Soon, I sensed we had enough rapport so I asked her to join me for dinner the next weekend.

 

Yes, took a risk there. She could have said,

"I'm not really interested in talking with you..." or "I'm tring to study for this class..." or something and rejected me (have to be prepared for that) but it's worth the risk. I got a 1.5 yr. relationship out of that one "bold" act.

 

The key is to get yourself out in the public and make friends.

 

...Sometimes, inexperienced guys have odd or naive notions about what they can (and maybe wouldn't be proper) do in terms of asking women out, like at at first meeting.

Oftentimes, that's the best time to ask for a date. Strike while the iron is hot, you know.

 

**********

 

Am not talking about becoming a "player" here, as I know many of you guys aren't that type.

And I don't recommend seeking women in bars, etc.

As some of you are of faith, would advise you to seek out singles groups -- church-related and others.

 

Depending on the size of the city you live in, look for the larger mainstream denominations like Catholic, Methodist, etc., to have such groups.

 

The city I then lived in when I was 26 (late 80s), about 100,000 population, the Methodist church there had a good Sunday a.m. singles group.

Not many other churches had singles groups.

 

Believe me, I telephoned churches and searched for such groups as I was isolated -- worked weekends and lived alone in my apt.

Realized I needed to start a social network and meet more people - women AND men.

 

Form relationships with men.

The reason I suggest forming more friendships with men, they sometimes bring a sister, relative or a female friend who you can meet and strike up conversations with.

You may just form a relationship with one of those women.

It can happen (and did happen to me a couple of times).

If you develop strong friendships like that. these friends may understand your situation and know someone who they think might be good for you to date.

 

At one of those singles groups, met this shy 30 y.o. virgin I ALMOST became engaged to (that's another story posted elsewhere, she condemned me for my LIMITED sexual experience, hated my politics, etc). If I recall correctly, I was her first real relationship (great to have "broken her in" and she later dumps me, which killed me...)

 

Another reason I suggest religious singles groups, the women you meet there likely won't be players and not "highly experienced."

 

They' may not be virgins (that's okay), but likely have minimal experience (in their 20s and 30s-- it's less likely you'll find a virgin in her 40s) and so may be of simlilar temperment and more likely to be like you in terms of life experiences.....

........and more likely the kind of woman you're looking for as I doubt women who've given themselves to a lot of guys would look for older virgins...

(Didn't want a promiscuous woman either and ended up marrying a woman who had only 1 other partner YEARS before me when she was in her early 20s).

 

If you make a determined effort, within 1 year, you could find yourself

-dating more frequently

 

within 2-5 years

-in a serious relationship

-engaged.

 

May sound ambitious but 1 yr. isn't a lot of time. And really, 2-4 years isn't that long either.

 

You just gotta get out there and take some needed steps.

 

 

A product that isn't advertised that no one knows about just sets on the shelf and rots.....

[robertdawson]

This is a bit late, but I thought I'd add this: I absolutely can't stand it when people talk about other people "lowering their standards". It doesn't matter if you're "hot", ugly, fat, skinny, stupid, whatever, if the only type of women you are attracted to is the supermodel type then THAT IS THE ONLY TYPE OF WOMEN YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO. People can't pick and choose what they're attracted to and what they're not. If the only way you can get a date is to go for women you don't find attracted to then what the hell is the point?

 

As far as being shy goes, I don't really have too many problems approaching women and talking to them but I can't ever do the conversion and get past a friendly conversation.