Do you blame the betrayed spouse?

[BB07]

Snowflower maybe you didnt do this but I think there is a tendency for the BS and the AP to vilify each other. Sometimes it is true, most times it isnt. Its always harder to place the blame on the person you love who you want to believe loves you best. So if things dont work out the wa you want them to (he cheated on you, he didnt leave to be with you) its cant be your love's fault, it must be some external influence.

 

Poor little hapless MM, lost little lamb:rolleyes:

 

IMHO too often the OW and the BS take umbrage at each other rather than placing their anger or disappointment squarely on the shoulders of the MM where it belongs.

 

I really liked your post JJ........and the poor little lamb cracked me up.

 

Also the bolded.....I think the BS and I both came to a very good understanding about who deserved most of the blame in our situations and it wasn't me or her......it was HIM.

[jj33]

Thanks BB. I am just so over the idea that there are so many lost souls out there... cant tie their own shoes running scared from their BS, giving in to the siren call of the OW... puleeze...

 

I appreciate that the decision to leave or not to leave is a devastatingly painful choice for many MPs in an A.

 

That being said in most cases, I dont beleiv that the MP is a "victim" of anything other than the fact that they have a difficult decision to make. The reason being that in most cases after a certain point, you cant have it all anymore.

 

They may feel manipulated they may feel trapped and in many cases the choices arent good (do I leave and only see my child on weekends? do I stay and maybe I should have just ended the marriage but I was afraid of xyz?) For many people these are real dilemmas but I dont think that is the BSs fault. Marriage in our society is a commitment and there are real social and financial and emotional repurcussions when you break up th marriage. Maybe people shouldnt expect marriage to be forever? Maybe they shouldnt expect the romance in a marriage to last forever.

 

Whatever it is, I can imagine that if you are 25 or 30 or whatever age and you are in love and you think yes I want to grow old with this person, you might grow apart over the years. But if you do and the other person says hang on a minute buddy, you said til death do us part, and Im not making it easy for you to leave, is it fair? Not fair in terms of follow your bliss. No.

 

But is it fair in terms of we made a commitment, I gave up my career to raise children so that you could work 80 hours a week? Maybe. Is it right to use children as a pawn? Of course it is not. But it happens all the time. Many situatoins arent fair, arent right.

 

But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who hide behind the natural animosity of one woman towards another (as you experienced all too keenly BB) when deciding what to do or explaining how they ended up in an A.

 

To me accountability is key. People need to be accountable for their actions and decisions. There is so much posturing (and its magnified on this forum) that it gets in the way of whats really going on.

[BB07]

Great post JJ! You brought up so many great points about accountability.

 

 

 

Thanks BB. I am just so over the idea that there are so many lost souls out there... cant tie their own shoes running scared from their BS, giving in to the siren call of the OW... puleeze...

 

I appreciate that the decision to leave or not to leave is a devastatingly painful choice for many MPs in an A.

 

That being said in most cases, I dont beleiv that the MP is a "victim" of anything other than the fact that they have a difficult decision to make. The reason being that in most cases after a certain point, you cant have it all anymore.

 

They may feel manipulated they may feel trapped and in many cases the choices arent good (do I leave and only see my child on weekends? do I stay and maybe I should have just ended the marriage but I was afraid of xyz?) For many people these are real dilemmas but I dont think that is the BSs fault. Marriage in our society is a commitment and there are real social and financial and emotional repurcussions when you break up th marriage. Maybe people shouldnt expect marriage to be forever? Maybe they shouldnt expect the romance in a marriage to last forever.

 

Whatever it is, I can imagine that if you are 25 or 30 or whatever age and you are in love and you think yes I want to grow old with this person, you might grow apart over the years. But if you do and the other person says hang on a minute buddy, you said til death do us part, and Im not making it easy for you to leave, is it fair? Not fair in terms of follow your bliss. No.

 

But is it fair in terms of we made a commitment, I gave up my career to raise children so that you could work 80 hours a week? Maybe. Is it right to use children as a pawn? Of course it is not. But it happens all the time. Many situatoins arent fair, arent right.

 

But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who hide behind the natural animosity of one woman towards another (as you experienced all too keenly BB) when deciding what to do or explaining how they ended up in an A.

 

To me accountability is key. People need to be accountable for their actions and decisions. There is so much posturing (and its magnified on this forum) that it gets in the way of whats really going on.

[lovingwhatis]

Jj, i loved your point about accountability, and the poor lamb sentence made me laugh a lot. i agree that two women to villify each other because of a man is not the way. He made his choices, and hopefully after d-day all of the parties can begin to make their choices.

 

You give good arguments as to why mm needs to become accountable, but why stop short from saying bs needs to be accountable for her own choices too? The example you gave, w giving up career to take care od kids, that was her choice, and her choice alone. If there is an accountability issue, why not go all across the board? I am not speaking from experience, but it seems that there is an implied justification for later vindictiveness which is a form of violence towards the mm. Yes he lied, but no he doesnt deserve to be destroyed for it.

 

You quoted Ghandi. Ghandi knew what the British were doing was not just, but he didnt believe in the eye for and eye principle. Everytime i think of what he did i am amazed, how could he be certain that his higher ideal would witstand the strenght of force? But it did.

[jj33]

Loving I think the BS has to be accountable too but I am not in a good position to talk about the BS being accountable for staying home and taking care of the home and children.

 

I have always worked so I have no experience of being the stay at home spouse. That being said, my understanding is that the decision to stay home is usually a decision made by a couple as a "team".

 

If one of the team wants to back out of the deal then other arrangements need to be made. I dont feel that sorry for men who marry trophy wives, or knowingly marry spoiled women who dont want to carry their weight in a relationship (how much of a shock is that? not much its just not as cute in year 10 as it was in year 1)

 

And I do feel strongly that the earning spouse should take the needs of the stay at home spouse (I have friends who have had to pay alimony to their Hs) into account because in most cases their staying at home allowed the other spouse to have their career without worrying about child care, taking care of the home and general family life, all the working spouse needs to do is "show up" and the rest of it is taken care of by the stay at home spouse for the most part.

 

I am not (just to be clear) anti divorce in any way, but its not just one life that is being "destoryed". It is a family that is breaking up and the lives of both spouses are changed.

 

xMMs wife never worked at anything that earned her more than a little bit of pin money. If he had left, he would have had to give her half his capital and half his income for the rest of his life plus half his retirement accounts even tho she has significant family money. Why? Because he has spent his whole adult life just "showing up" and she has made sure the rest was taken care of for him. Is it fair to him that future earnings and future hard work even if more lucrative than what he has done in the past goes to her, not so much to me, but ?? if I were in her shoes I would probably think that it was.

 

For people who dont have a whole whole lot of money like shedloads the lifestyle is almost certain to change if they lose half of everything for the rest of their lives but courts in some places say you have to honor the bargain. Depending on the length of the marriage, Im not sure that is wrong.

 

If marriage isnt for life anymore should all spouses work? And if not should the working spouse know in advance he/she will be required to care for the other for the rest of his/her days? Prenups change the game here. And affairs have been part of civilization for eons because of these issues. If one spouse earns relatively little it may make more sense for one spouse to stay home because that spouse's salary is not much greater than child care costs. Does that mean "the partys over" when the earning spouse decides its time to leave? not without a prenup...

 

Apologies to GG for the t/j but I think that making the WS accountable is part of whether you blame the BS. I think most BS have things to be accountable for within the marriage and there are always unusual situations, but middle age ennui shouldnt leave the non working spouse (typically women) with limited options (regardless of whether there is an affair) and limited capital while the working spouse leaves the marriage with so much more. Not if the decision for one spouse to stay home, or put their career on the back burner was a joint decision.

 

What I think is way less fair is when the non working spouse meets someone else leaves, gets half of the working spouse's assets etc and takes them into a new marriage maybe that is inconsistent because the non working spouse's contribution to the family should be credited the same way regardless of who ends the marriage. Perhaps this is another thread and not for this thread

Edited March 31, 2011 by jj33

[greengoddess]

Loving I think the BS has to be accountable too but I am not in a good position to talk about the BS being accountable for staying home and taking care of the home and children.

 

I have always worked so I have no experience of being the stay at home spouse. That being said, my understanding is that the decision to stay home is usually a decision made by a couple as a "team".

 

If one of the team wants to back out of the deal then other arrangements need to be made. I dont feel that sorry for men who marry trophy wives, or knowingly marry spoiled women who dont want to carry their weight in a relationship (how much of a shock is that? not much its just not as cute in year 10 as it was in year 1)

 

And I do feel strongly that the earning spouse should take the needs of the stay at home spouse (I have friends who have had to pay alimony to their Hs) into account because in most cases their staying at home allowed the other spouse to have their career without worrying about child care, taking care of the home and general family life, all the working spouse needs to do is "show up" and the rest of it is taken care of by the stay at home spouse for the most part.

 

I am not (just to be clear) anti divorce in any way, but its not just one life that is being "destoryed". It is a family that is breaking up and the lives of both spouses are changed.

 

xMMs wife never worked at anything that earned her more than a little bit of pin money. If he had left, he would have had to give her half his capital and half his income for the rest of his life plus half his retirement accounts even tho she has significant family money. Why? Because he has spent his whole adult life just "showing up" and she has made sure the rest was taken care of for him. Is it fair to him that future earnings and future hard work even if more lucrative than what he has done in the past goes to her, not so much to me, but ?? if I were in her shoes I would probably think that it was.

 

For people who dont have a whole whole lot of money like shedloads the lifestyle is almost certain to change if they lose half of everything for the rest of their lives but courts in some places say you have to honor the bargain. Depending on the length of the marriage, Im not sure that is wrong.

 

If marriage isnt for life anymore should all spouses work? And if not should the working spouse know in advance he/she will be required to care for the other for the rest of his/her days? Prenups change the game here. And affairs have been part of civilization for eons because of these issues. If one spouse earns relatively little it may make more sense for one spouse to stay home because that spouse's salary is not much greater than child care costs. Does that mean "the partys over" when the earning spouse decides its time to leave? not without a prenup...

 

Apologies to GG for the t/j but I think that making the WS accountable is part of whether you blame the BS. I think most BS have things to be accountable for within the marriage and there are always unusual situations, but middle age ennui shouldnt leave the non working spouse (typically women) with limited options (regardless of whether there is an affair) and limited capital while the working spouse leaves the marriage with so much more. Not if the decision for one spouse to stay home, or put their career on the back burner was a joint decision.

 

What I think is way less fair is when the non working spouse meets someone else leaves, gets half of the working spouse's assets etc and takes them into a new marriage maybe that is inconsistent because the non working spouse's contribution to the family should be credited the same way regardless of who ends the marriage. Perhaps this is another thread and not for this thread

 

Fine threadjack. I am finding this conversation very interesting and thoughtful.

[Silly_Girl]

How did you feel about blame possibly being apportioned to the BS in your situation, gg?

 

Fine threadjack. I am finding this conversation very interesting and thoughtful.

 

Good thread. Just wondered how the responses measured up to your own experiences gg?

[lovingwhatis]

Jj, you make some really great points, and you have obviously thought about this a lot more than me. And like GG, I feel this is actually pertinent to the OP, and important to consider. My post dealt a bit more with the concept of justness that you raised, the idea that regardless of what others ultimately do, we CAN choose how we react to it, and we don't have to necessarily resort to getting back at someone who we consider to have wronged us in some way.

 

As for the non working spouse, I can see both sides. Good movie that I feel portrays it really well is Revolutionary road. Sure, the wife made a mutual decision with the H to stay home, it was of course a lot more socially encouraged then. With wage inequality, it would sometimes make more sense for the W to stay home instead of hiring babysitters. But nowadays more often than not the woman does feel limited when she has to stay home entirely. Of course different people have different desires, but lets face it, a woman who does want to feel intellectually challenged may find child rearing to ultimately not provide her with satisfaction because in our society it is not valued equally as money making. If it was, babysitters wouldn't make $10-15 an hour (talking about the states). If the W worked, she would still be a mother and get the benefits of being a mother, but also get the other types of satisfaction and growth opportunities through paid work. Even if the decision at the time to stay home was probably a good decision, it may not be the best decision in the long term.

 

I cant attest to the thought process of a man in that scenario, but chances are he may think that he actually is putting more effort by working 80 hours a week (cause that isn't exactly a walk in the park either), so he may miscalculate the wife's contribution. I am not saying at all that I agree with this, just that I can see how this situation may happen. And then a man, with an ego to come with that, may feel more entitled during a joint decision making process, since he perceives that he is contributing more to the family.

 

Please, do feel free to correct me here, but I can see this happening. That's why ultimately the W not working at all may be a can of worms that may provide to be a ticking bomb nowadays. and I am with you regarding a trophy wife, I actually know a couple that can fall under that category and she just became P and abandoned work in that exact moment. I actually like her, but I have to say that she strikes me as a woman who has a low self esteem, and I can empathize with her and her choices. But ultimately it is up to her H to perceive who she is and decide if this is what he wants in a M partner. I don't know her H enough to make that estimation.

 

And yes, maybe you can start a thread regarding this subject.

[bentnotbroken]

Jj, you make some really great points, and you have obviously thought about this a lot more than me. And like GG, I feel this is actually pertinent to the OP, and important to consider. My post dealt a bit more with the concept of justness that you raised, the idea that regardless of what others ultimately do, we CAN choose how we react to it, and we don't have to necessarily resort to getting back at someone who we consider to have wronged us in some way.

 

As for the non working spouse, I can see both sides. Good movie that I feel portrays it really well is Revolutionary road. Sure, the wife made a mutual decision with the H to stay home, it was of course a lot more socially encouraged then. With wage inequality, it would sometimes make more sense for the W to stay home instead of hiring babysitters. But nowadays more often than not the woman does feel limited when she has to stay home entirely. Of course different people have different desires, but lets face it, a woman who does want to feel intellectually challenged may find child rearing to ultimately not provide her with satisfaction because in our society it is not valued equally as money making. If it was, babysitters wouldn't make $10-15 an hour (talking about the states). If the W worked, she would still be a mother and get the benefits of being a mother, but also get the other types of satisfaction and growth opportunities through paid work. Even if the decision at the time to stay home was probably a good decision, it may not be the best decision in the long term.

 

I cant attest to the thought process of a man in that scenario, but chances are he may think that he actually is putting more effort by working 80 hours a week (cause that isn't exactly a walk in the park either), so he may miscalculate the wife's contribution. I am not saying at all that I agree with this, just that I can see how this situation may happen. And then a man, with an ego to come with that, may feel more entitled during a joint decision making process, since he perceives that he is contributing more to the family.

 

Please, do feel free to correct me here, but I can see this happening. That's why ultimately the W not working at all may be a can of worms that may provide to be a ticking bomb nowadays. and I am with you regarding a trophy wife, I actually know a couple that can fall under that category and she just became P and abandoned work in that exact moment. I actually like her, but I have to say that she strikes me as a woman who has a low self esteem, and I can empathize with her and her choices. But ultimately it is up to her H to perceive who she is and decide if this is what he wants in a M partner. I don't know her H enough to make that estimation.

 

And yes, maybe you can start a thread regarding this subject.

 

 

 

 

:confused:I do believe I find this insulting. Maybe I just read it wrong.

[Silly_Girl]

:confused:I do believe I find this insulting. Maybe I just read it wrong.

 

I believe the poster was talking about what she thinks society's perceptions are, not her own.

 

Or that's how I read it anyway...

[jj33]

Loving this is just my opinoin based on something I used to do where I had a lot of women coming to me saying what am I going to do. I gave up being x or the chance to pursue y or if i had known that this would happen I would have made sure I got a job. I dont know the statistics anymore but divorced women who enter the workforce later in life often have a difficult time and the "new poor" are often divorced mothers with young children.

 

Jj, you make some really great points, and you have obviously thought about this a lot more than me. And like GG, I feel this is actually pertinent to the OP, and important to consider. My post dealt a bit more with the concept of justness that you raised, the idea that regardless of what others ultimately do, we CAN choose how we react to it, and we don't have to necessarily resort to getting back at someone who we consider to have wronged us in some way.

 

Yes that is true you dont have to be meanspirited but if nonfinancial contributions count too. I used to look at my male colleagues who are married and think wow if I had a W taking care of everything for me my life would be so much easier and I used to look at my female colleagues who have families and think HOW do you do it.

 

As for the non working spouse, I can see both sides. Good movie that I feel portrays it really well is Revolutionary road. Sure, the wife made a mutual decision with the H to stay home, it was of course a lot more socially encouraged then. With wage inequality, it would sometimes make more sense for the W to stay home instead of hiring babysitters. But nowadays more often than not the woman does feel limited when she has to stay home entirely. Some do some dont. I know lots of women who stay at home and dont feel limited at all. They do other things with their time and contribute to charities etc.

 

 

Of course different people have different desires, but lets face it, a woman who does want to feel intellectually challenged may find child rearing to ultimately not provide her with satisfaction because in our society it is not valued equally as money making. If it was, babysitters wouldn't make $10-15 an hour (talking about the states). If the W worked, she would still be a mother and get the benefits of being a mother, but also get the other types of satisfaction and growth opportunities through paid work. Even if the decision at the time to stay home was probably a good decision, it may not be the best decision in the long term.

 

I know where you are coming from (non working mothers hate that view) and I can see how Bent would take agin it. Being a mother is tough work. Tougher in my view than working. Children never go away. You cant go to lunch, you dont get a break, you dont get days off for national holidays, and your heart is totally bound up in making sure their lives are as happy as possible. Being a mother means you are shaping young lives. The lack of value placed on a non working mother is the same reason teachers arent paid like professional atheletes. Society doesnt value the people who shape young minds.

 

I cant attest to the thought process of a man in that scenario, but chances are he may think that he actually is putting more effort by working 80 hours a week (cause that isn't exactly a walk in the park either), so he may miscalculate the wife's contribution. I am not saying at all that I agree with this, just that I can see how this situation may happen. And then a man, with an ego to come with that, may feel more entitled during a joint decision making process, since he perceives that he is contributing more to the family.

 

Rookie mistake when the divorce comes along eh? (depending on where you live) or horrible for the wife if she is in a state that only provides alimony for a few years and doesnt value her contribution).

 

Please, do feel free to correct me here, but I can see this happening. It hapens ALL the time. You would not believe the number of emotionally abused wives who are married to successful men. Gilded cage syndrome. Its horrible. One woman I know filed for divorce and her H tried to have her committed (yes to an insane asylum). I could tell you all sorts of stories like that. Makes your hair stand on end. And these are nice bright well educated otherwise confident women. They made a decision that noone could raise their children better than they could and over the years it all went wrong and they were under the thumb of guys who ceased to value them.

 

But the point to me is, that the earning spouse shouldnt get to "dispose" of someone who put their life into building a family with them and discount the non earning spouse's contribution. Sadly the courts in many states see it differently.

 

That's why ultimately the W not working at all may be a can of worms that may provide to be a ticking bomb nowadays. and I am with you regarding a trophy wife, I actually know a couple that can fall under that category and she just became P and abandoned work in that exact moment. I actually like her, but I have to say that she strikes me as a woman who has a low self esteem, and I can empathize with her and her choices. But ultimately it is up to her H to perceive who she is and decide if this is what he wants in a M partner. I don't know her H enough to make that estimation.

 

Yeah my take on that is, if you marry someone and you think its cute that its honey buy me this honey buy me that, well... thats on you. Youre going to get what you paid for.

 

And yes, maybe you can start a thread regarding this subject.

[silktricks]

There are also cases where the working spouse wants their spouse to work as well. And no children. But the spouse doesn't work - then "finds" someone else, gets a divorce, half the joint possessions, 1/2 the retirement account AND support for the rest of their life....

[jj33]

Unfortunately that is true too

[SidLyon]

My salary has always been just above my H's but we still decided as a team that I would be a SAHM for the first 2 years while he worked full-time. Then he was a SAHF for another year while I worked full-time. After that we both worked. Him full-time and me an average of half-time.

 

I don't agree with the implication that intelligent mothers (or intelligent people generally) don't get satisfaction from child-rearing. Or with the implication that this makes a SAHM more culpable in her H's affair.

[jj33]

I don't agree with the implication that intelligent mothers (or intelligent people generally) don't get satisfaction from child-rearing. Or with the implication that this makes a SAHM more culpable in her H's affair.

 

I agree with you Sid. I think its unfortunate that people think that intelligent people or people who could have high paying jobs shouldnt or wouldnt want to stay at home with children.

[bentnotbroken]

My salary has always been just above my H's but we still decided as a team that I would be a SAHM for the first 2 years while he worked full-time. Then he was a SAHF for another year while I worked full-time. After that we both worked. Him full-time and me an average of half-time.

 

I don't agree with the implication that intelligent mothers (or intelligent people generally) don't get satisfaction from child-rearing. Or with the implication that this makes a SAHM more culpable in her H's affair.

 

 

Thank you. That is the way I read it too.

[fooled once]

Thanks BB. I am just so over the idea that there are so many lost souls out there... cant tie their own shoes running scared from their BS, giving in to the siren call of the OW... puleeze...

 

I appreciate that the decision to leave or not to leave is a devastatingly painful choice for many MPs in an A.

 

That being said in most cases, I dont beleiv that the MP is a "victim" of anything other than the fact that they have a difficult decision to make. The reason being that in most cases after a certain point, you cant have it all anymore.

 

They may feel manipulated they may feel trapped and in many cases the choices arent good (do I leave and only see my child on weekends? do I stay and maybe I should have just ended the marriage but I was afraid of xyz?) For many people these are real dilemmas but I dont think that is the BSs fault. Marriage in our society is a commitment and there are real social and financial and emotional repurcussions when you break up th marriage. Maybe people shouldnt expect marriage to be forever? Maybe they shouldnt expect the romance in a marriage to last forever.

 

Whatever it is, I can imagine that if you are 25 or 30 or whatever age and you are in love and you think yes I want to grow old with this person, you might grow apart over the years. But if you do and the other person says hang on a minute buddy, you said til death do us part, and Im not making it easy for you to leave, is it fair? Not fair in terms of follow your bliss. No.

 

But is it fair in terms of we made a commitment, I gave up my career to raise children so that you could work 80 hours a week? Maybe. Is it right to use children as a pawn? Of course it is not. But it happens all the time. Many situatoins arent fair, arent right.

 

But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who hide behind the natural animosity of one woman towards another (as you experienced all too keenly BB) when deciding what to do or explaining how they ended up in an A.

 

To me accountability is key. People need to be accountable for their actions and decisions. There is so much posturing (and its magnified on this forum) that it gets in the way of whats really going on.

 

Very good post jj33.

 

As for the nonworking spouse thing....I am willing to bet that every single couple that decides to have children DO talk about if one parent will stay home or if they will use a nanny or daycare.

 

Daycare is expensive - for a newborn, it is approximately $175.00 to $200 A WEEK in the states, and rising every year. From the time my son was born until he stopped going to daycare, his weekly rate was $135.00 - each time I was anticipating a decrease in cost, the rates were raised

 

Plus there are many very intelligent women who choose to stay home and raise their kids - and they don't sit around all day watching soap operas, etc. Many belong to play groups, volunteer, etc. These stay at home mom's enable the father to focus on working outside the home - knowing full well his wife is taking care of things at home - raising children, cooking, cleaning, etc. For those that think it isn't a big deal - become a parent or become a single parent. It isn't easy at all. I only took 8 weeks off after my son was born - trying working full time, and raising a child (basically alone) and being responsible for the cooking, cleaning, bill paying, etc. AND I made more than my ex. I was more than capable of handling things but it wasn't easy. So before any stereo typing starts, let's remember that being a SAH parent isn't a walk in the park. Not every one is cut out to be a stay at home parent. I know I wasn't. But I did have friends who the HUSBAND was the stay at home parent; because it made sense for them. It isn't worth it to be working if the paycheck is going to daycare.

[fooled once]

My salary has always been just above my H's but we still decided as a team that I would be a SAHM for the first 2 years while he worked full-time. Then he was a SAHF for another year while I worked full-time. After that we both worked. Him full-time and me an average of half-time.

 

I don't agree with the implication that intelligent mothers (or intelligent people generally) don't get satisfaction from child-rearing. Or with the implication that this makes a SAHM more culpable in her H's affair.

 

Completely agree Sid!

 

And jj33, you said it very well again when you said:

 

know where you are coming from (non working mothers hate that view) and I can see how Bent would take agin it. Being a mother is tough work. Tougher in my view than working. Children never go away. You cant go to lunch, you dont get a break, you dont get days off for national holidays, and your heart is totally bound up in making sure their lives are as happy as possible. Being a mother means you are shaping young lives. The lack of value placed on a non working mother is the same reason teachers arent paid like professional atheletes. Society doesnt value the people who shape young minds.

 

Great words.

 

I know when I went back to work, every call from our day care provider that our son was sick meant I was the one to leave work. I never had much of a leave balance as I was always taking time off to care for our son. I remember when my son got chickenpox and I told my ex that he HAD to split the stay at home duties with me and he got so pissed. I was the one who took him to have tubes put in his ears - TWICE. I was the one who took him to have his adnoids out. My ex NEVER EVER took off to help care for him. Gosh, he was pathetic. Only good thing out of him was his sperm.

[greengoddess]

I agree with you Sid. I think its unfortunate that people think that intelligent people or people who could have high paying jobs shouldnt or wouldnt want to stay at home with children.

 

 

It's just another way of blaming wifey and thinking poorly of her.

I remember one account where the husband kept picking on the wife and would say you are always talking baby talk and she would have no clue what he was talking about especially because their kids were teens. Well it was the ow. She would always put the notion in his head that his wife must do nothing but talk baby talk since she is with the kids all day. She had no clue this wife spent her days doing voluntary counseling work to keep her skills sharp while she was a sahm, at the gym, the spa, and out to lunch with girlfriends She didn't know the ages of his kids. He didn't even respect her enough to share that with her.

 

I will never forget that story because the ow really felt so superior to the wifey and she had no clue who this woman was. The married jerk would always act like the bigshot to ow that his wifey was only with him for his paycheck when his wife had a masters degree and was very current in her field from volunteering and had numerous connections to get a paying job if she wanted. She just judged her because she knew she had kids and wasn't "earning" a paycheck. Poor ow was thrown under the bus hard on this one. Apparently it was the mm that felt inferior to wifey and needed the ego boost.

[jj33]

It's just another way of blaming wifey and thinking poorly of her.

I remember one account where the husband kept picking on the wife and would say you are always talking baby talk and she would have no clue what he was talking about especially because their kids were teens. Well it was the ow. She would always put the notion in his head that his wife must do nothing but talk baby talk since she is with the kids all day. She had no clue this wife spent her days doing voluntary counseling work to keep her skills sharp while she was a sahm, at the gym, the spa, and out to lunch with girlfriends She didn't know the ages of his kids. He didn't even respect her enough to share that with her.

 

I will never forget that story because the ow really felt so superior to the wifey and she had no clue who this woman was. The married jerk would always act like the bigshot to ow that his wifey was only with him for his paycheck when his wife had a masters degree and was very current in her field from volunteering and had numerous connections to get a paying job if she wanted. She just judged her because she knew she had kids and wasn't "earning" a paycheck. Poor ow was thrown under the bus hard on this one. Apparently it was the mm that felt inferior to wifey and needed the ego boost.

 

 

Sadly that doesnt surprise me. I am very wary of accounts of how awful the BS is. Sometimes people are horrible to each other in marriages but unless there is something about the forums on the internet that attracts women involved with men who are with horrible women, its just not possible that they are all bad right? I have to say xMM NEVER EVER said a bad word about his wife. The bad things I heard about her were from people who knew her socially, but women can be catty and she is the way she is.

 

Im just so very bored with hearing how the BS manipulates the WS into staying. With the divorce rate as high as it is, except in rare cases I think its a load of old rubbish. Its a tough decision to leave a marriage and it should be IMHO. But that doesnt make it the other spouse's fault.

[lovingwhatis]

I believe the poster was talking about what she thinks society's perceptions are, not her own.

 

Or that's how I read it anyway...

 

Yes, Silly girl, that's what I was talking about in my post. I would not be as presumptuous to imply here that I know what all SAHM,or any group in that matter, experience. I simply come to LS to muse about certain phenomena, because my mind is curious like that. It is interesting to me that you, Bent, are ready to fight. I have absolutely no desire to participate in that fight.

 

Sidlyon, that seems like you had such an equitable arrangement with your H. That's great.

[lovingwhatis]

Thanks JJ for introducing me to the gilded cage syndrome concept. It seems to describe a certain phenomenon that I have observed in suburbia in particular.

 

And yes I imagine that being a mother can be very tough, and like you said, it is never ending (well, at least for 18 years, and then it becomes part time )

 

Maybe you can indeed start a new thread, so that this discussion doesn't get confused with blaming anyone.

[Spark1111]

Jj, i loved your point about accountability, and the poor lamb sentence made me laugh a lot. i agree that two women to villify each other because of a man is not the way. He made his choices, and hopefully after d-day all of the parties can begin to make their choices.

 

You give good arguments as to why mm needs to become accountable, but why stop short from saying bs needs to be accountable for her own choices too? The example you gave, w giving up career to take care od kids, that was her choice, and her choice alone. If there is an accountability issue, why not go all across the board? I am not speaking from experience, but it seems that there is an implied justification for later vindictiveness which is a form of violence towards the mm. Yes he lied, but no he doesnt deserve to be destroyed for it.

 

You quoted Ghandi. Ghandi knew what the British were doing was not just, but he didnt believe in the eye for and eye principle. Everytime i think of what he did i am amazed, how could he be certain that his higher ideal would witstand the strenght of force? But it did.

 

Hey, and how would you ever know if she wanted to return to work, and he really did not want that for them, their home, their kids, etc.?

 

All you know is what he has told you, and maybe there were many discussions about it. Maybe it was cheaper at the time for her to stay home than to put kids in daycare and live that crazy life.

 

Do you realize a woman at home makes a man's life easier? She picks up the dry cleaning, cleans the house, tends to his babies, pays the bills, deals with the service people, blah, blah, blah.

 

If she returns to work, she will expect him to help with 50% of all those chores she now does.

 

I have worked inside and outside the home, and there is NO JOB harder than staying home full-time raising children. It ALSO made my H's life A LOT easier as all he had to concentrate on was his professional career.

 

To complain that the BS is now home and financially dependent is a stupid argument, IMO.

 

Know how many thousands of dollars in child-care and home service she saved that man? Too many to count, not including the stress HE DID NOT HAVE because she took care of the home front.

[lovingwhatis]

Spark, I wasn't speaking from experience, so not sure why your post was directed to me.

 

As far as a hypothetical woman who did that make that choice to support her husband and her family, more power to her. If she is happy with that role, again good for her. If he is happy with that arrangement, good for him. Different people arrange their lives differently. And if the same hypothetical woman decides to work outside the home, she can still be an excellent mother and wife, and that would be a great arrangement too.

 

Hey, and how would you ever know if she wanted to return to work, and he really did not want that for them, their home, their kids, etc.?

 

All you know is what he has told you, and maybe there were many discussions about it. Maybe it was cheaper at the time for her to stay home than to put kids in daycare and live that crazy life.

 

Do you realize a woman at home makes a man's life easier? She picks up the dry cleaning, cleans the house, tends to his babies, pays the bills, deals with the service people, blah, blah, blah.

 

If she returns to work, she will expect him to help with 50% of all those chores she now does.

 

I have worked inside and outside the home, and there is NO JOB harder than staying home full-time raising children. It ALSO made my H's life A LOT easier as all he had to concentrate on was his professional career.

 

To complain that the BS is now home and financially dependent is a stupid argument, IMO.

 

Know how many thousands of dollars in child-care and home service she saved that man? Too many to count, not including the stress HE DID NOT HAVE because she took care of the home front.