Strange case of visual cheating. (beware: awfully long post)

[Pyrannaste]

Hi, I feel sort of akward about writing this post but I've been browsing the internet for months and I never found anything in advice columns that reminded closely the situation I'm in.

Basically I'd like to ask the women here if they too would be upset if their boyfriend had female friends he has seen naked.

 

A bit of background: I'm 25, my boyfriend is 32.

My boyfriend used to be - or should I say he still is- in a sort of university fraternity (is this what they are called in USA? well, they are groups of university students that meet usually once a week) which is basically halfway between the one you see in 'the skulls' movie and the one you see in 'animal house' movie, and where happened *weird* sort of things.

 

Girls would often take off some of their clothes, and be in underwear or even w/out it, and when a girl joins that particular fraternity she has to stick to a certain ritual including standing *completely*naked for about 3-4 hours, and having to do weird sort of things such as doing a lap dance, being asked very personal questions(while naked) or being put in ridiculous situations by the other members-male or female-of the fraternity.

I find that degradating and disgusting, but it's just a personal opinion. I'd never do s*** like that to enter a university fraternity - and I'm in one myself.

 

It's a while my boyfriend has left the fraternity - hey, that's why we got back together - months ago after years of crying and feeling awful, and nagging him, and trying to compromise without managing to, we broke up but kept in touch.

Well, even if i know he's not seeing a lot of them anymore I'm still p*ssed off - whenever he joins one of the fraternity meetings.

 

I just can't stand the idea of my boyfriend being *even in the same room with other people there* with a girl who's either naked or with very little on(i.e. underwear).

I am not comfortable at all with the idea of him having female friends who he has seen in -let's say- 'adamitic outfit' in such contexts.

 

Mind that I am okay with him looking at porn on the internet (He's got a collection of 200 movies and about 7000 pics-I don't like it, but I can definitely live with it ) as long as he's not cybering or interacting with girls, and I wouldn't be *that*upset if he went to a strip club (w/out touching of course), strip clubs chicks are...well, nameless. more like a fantasy than anything.

 

But I am terribly jealous of his so called friends. in my opinion, friends are such only as long as they keep their clothes on, otherwise they get another name.

 

I have to mention that I trust my boyfriend, he has never cheated on me (he once offered a girl on the net to teach her how to masturbate, he was caught, he just thought he was doing nothing wrong, learnt that I counted it as cheating, apologized and never did it again), he never touched any of his friends he saw naked. Hey, I know that then seeing some flash of skin is not supposed to be cheating, but it makes me feel *awful*, like I'm being cheated on.

Most important, he's a sweet, intelligent, caring person. Not the jerk type. he can treat me like a princess at times.

 

Well, I guess I wrote all of this because I'd just like to know, would any other girl/woman feel as jealous/unconfortable as I do in the same circumnstances?

Anyone has been in a similar situation? I'm beginning to feel weird.

Would any one else find being with a naked stripper way more acceptable than being with a naked friend?

 

Sorry about the long post, and the bad english.

[dyermaker]

I'm going to make a generalization. There are exceptions, but I'm going to operate under this one for this post: Fraternity guys are dicks.

 

The hazing rituals, party habits, activities, and bevaviors of frat boys are neither alluring nor respectful. Again, there are exceptions, but from what you posted, I don't see yours as one. Now, it's true that you shouldn't be so possesive that he can't see some skin while fulfilling his obligations to his friends, but if I were you, it wouldn't be the floosies that bothered me. It would instead be the fact that your partner engages in degrading and disrespectful conduct on a daily basis--and not only thinks nothing of it, but instead feels like he's doing his job.

[Pyrannaste]

It would instead be the fact that your partner engages in degrading and disrespectful conduct on a daily basis--and not only thinks nothing of it, but instead feels like he's doing his job.

 

Thanks a lot for replying.

 

er.... that was another big issue in fact.

I suppose I just found it difficult to take it out.

he *exactly* feels like he was doing his job. Which his disturbing.

 

like, "we make them go naked because men go naked too, so there is equity".

Equity my a$$! One naked guy is more ridicolous than arousing, one naked girl wouldn't be ridicolous even if she hopped around wearing bunny slippers imitating a frog.

 

or like "we make them get naked for their own benefits, so they can get over the taboo of nudity"

first, one girl who knows beforehand she will not enter the fraternity if she doesn't get completely naked, mustn't have a lot of nudity tabooes to get over.

second, I am not buying this one, they don't look like a bunch of good samaritans.

 

what about a "they have to do it, because it is a symbolic thing"?

Were it symbolic, you could do it alone, or in front of girls only, or for just 5 bl00dy seconds in a different environment....

 

I think it is degradating, disgusting, like they are turning 19 years old girls into sluts. if I were one of them, I'd see that idiotic fraternity ritual as serious sexual harassment.

this was at first really shocked me - that they do things that would fit better in a privee club or in a strip bar- before I got that jealous about his female friends.

[priscilla]

Sounds like a weird fraternity. Is he still in college or is this an alumni thing? Back in the dayl, I was in a sorority and I don't believe there are any national fraternitys that accept females. Some have little sisters but not female members. So, I would wonder about that. Local fraternitys maybe, but rare. And, alumni meetings usually don't involve naked members of the oppopsite sex. Weird. And if he is 32, what is he doing in a college fraternity. That seems kind of old. Usually fraternitys are college students in their early 20's.

 

If he only goes once in a while and is not involved in anyway, I wouldn't worry about it too much, but if it is a regular thing and he hangs out with these women on a regular basis I would probably feel uncomfortable. You might just talk to him and let him know your feelings. And, you might want to find out a little more about this fraternity.

[Pyrannaste]

Originally posted by priscilla

Sounds like a weird fraternity. Is he still in college or is this an alumni thing? Back in the dayl, I was in a sorority and I don't believe there are any national fraternitys that accept females. Some have little sisters but not female members. So, I would wonder about that. Local fraternitys maybe, but rare. And, alumni meetings usually don't involve naked members of the oppopsite sex. Weird. And if he is 32, what is he doing in a college fraternity. That seems kind of old. Usually fraternitys are college students in their early 20's.

 

You are right, Priscilla, I were inaccurate. Well, it's not exactly a fraternity, it's a group of university students who meet on regular (usually weekly) basis, usually to have fun and do things together, and have their own traditions and rituals. There are groups like this in a few towns with university here in italy. I called it a fraternity because...well, a fraternity is what they remind most of.

Usually people finish university at 24/25 here, most people who join student groups like the one I described stop going regularly to the meetings when they finish university, but some wait longer. Also, here you could be

[Pyrannaste]

Originally posted by priscilla

Sounds like a weird fraternity. Is he still in college or is this an alumni thing? Back in the dayl, I was in a sorority and I don't believe there are any national fraternitys that accept females. Some have little sisters but not female members. So, I would wonder about that. Local fraternitys maybe, but rare. And, alumni meetings usually don't involve naked members of the oppopsite sex. Weird. And if he is 32, what is he doing in a college fraternity. That seems kind of old. Usually fraternitys are college students in their early 20's.

 

You are right, Priscilla, I were inaccurate. Well, it's not exactly a fraternity, it's a group of university students who meet on regular (usually weekly) basis, usually to have fun and do things together, and have their own traditions and rituals. There are groups like this in a few towns with university here in italy. I called it a fraternity because...well, a fraternity is what they remind most of.

Usually people finish university at 24/25 here, most people who join student groups like the one I described stop going regularly to the meetings when they finish university, but some wait longer. Also, here you could be 30 and still attending university. it's different than in the US.

[priscilla]

Hmm very interesting, but still weird. I just can't imagine any woman going through that initiation ritual, unless they have absolutely no self esteem. That is absolutely horrible. But that is their problem.

 

But, as I eluded to before, it would be uncomfortable, I wouldn't be happy with it. I would just keep my eyes open for any unusual behaviors. I would also be concerned, however, with all the porn he has. Are you guys very serious? Gone out awhile? If this guy was marriage material, I would tell him how I feel about it all and request he give up some of this voyeurism.

 

What do the guys do in this fraternity to get initiated? do they stand around naked too? That might be interesting.

[bethbeatrice]

Pyrannaste,

 

Well, I must say that I have never encounted a college group that acted in this manor. I was in a sorortity and my boyfriend was in a fraturnity. I have heard of this when frats choose "little sisters" but the little sister program is baned from my college as is hazing. I do not blame you at all for being upset about the act. It is rather sad that your boyfriend supports such a thing. I really hate the thought of objectifying women or men for that matter.

 

As far as him seeing other women naked... for me the human body is somthing that should be shared between two people that love eachother. Porn, strip clubs etc. cheapen it. I do understand your jelousy. My boyfriend is a parametic and is in medical school. Understand, I do not mind him seeing his patients naked, that is part of his job. However, he has seen a couple of girls who were naked because they had something wrong with them. That bothers me. I don't believe doctors are allowed to treat friends or family. He no longer does checkups on his friends because it bothers me. The last straw was his friend Aylette (female) was attacked by fleas. Her body was covered by flea bites. When he first met me, he was also interested in Aylette but he never told her. (I just found out that he once liked her.) He treated her bug bites which I thought was unnecessary. The ones on her back are understandible. but her stomach and inner theighs really bothers me because she can do that herself. He never realized it bothered me but now he understands. It still bothers me that he say her in her underware especially since he once liked her. So I know where you are coming from. I would definatly object to this behaviour with the frat.

[Pyrannaste]

Priscilla: yes, the guys who are initiated have to stay naked for a few hours too and do weird stuff, like the girls. I don't see it as being equal to boys and girls because ...well, usually females react to male nudity in a different way. Or perhaps it's just me not getting aroused by male nudity-if I'm not dating the man- and I tend to apply my way of thinking to other ladies, who knows

 

We have been going out together for two years, then broke up on the issue that I wasn't able to compromise with him going to the fraternity meetings

- we had tried for a while with 'you go, but if some girl is being initiated, you just walk away, and if there is some nudity scene you can just turn your head and wait till they got their clothes back on, and , and, and'.

I found out I can be a nagger and whiner extraordinarire, , but we kept arguing.

He told me I had just to grow up a bit and I'd understand that that was meaningless stuff, he saw nothing wrong about having a partner and witnessing such scenes, that looking is not equiparable to touching - well, to me sometimes it is I got even nastier if it was possible.

I think he never really meant to disrespect me, it was just a problem of different points of views.

 

We got back together after a few months when he gave up going regularly at the meetings, now he'll just show up once in a while, but I still can't stand him being anywhere near the girls in his fraternity. Weird thing is, I'd probably like some of them if hadn't there been this issue with my boyfriend. And I'd stop being awfully jealous and wouldn't mind too much him seeing them the day he gives up completely the fraternity stuff.

 

Pornography is annoying and sometimes makes me feelk insecure, but it's something I can live with. He has never put it above me, he never made comparisons.... he treats me like I was as pretty as the girls in the movies, and, most important, I think it's the sex he's interested in, not the girls themselves. Who anyway are ..well, a fantasy.

 

Bethbeatrice, thanks for sharing your story, it helped me a lot! I would have gone totally mad had I been you. To be honest, I'd probably be unconfortable dating someone who has taken up medicine studies….I know I'd be awfully jealous about female patients. When I told my friends they laughed and said I was nutty, it would just be their job

I'm really glad to know that your boyfriend treated Aylette's bug bites only because he didn't realize it would bother you, and that he agreed to no longer do checkups to friends.

[dyermaker]

Pyrannaste, it's ultimatim time--someone as rational and understanding as you does not belong in a relationship with someone who will abuse it.