How normal is this?

[Jeana]

Hi, this is my first post, I'll try to make it to the point, I know these are serious issues but I'm interested in how others deal with it....

 

My husband is like Jekyl and Hyde, to everyone he is very nice, considerate, respectful, everyone loves him. When its just him and I he is disrespectful, angry, negative, complains about everything and everyone and is generally miserable. And this isn't just once in a while, its constant, everyday negativity.

 

I usually end up giving in to whatever he wants just so I don't have to listen to him whine and get angry, regardless of money, time or commitment. For example, when we bought our house a few years ago it needed a serious washroom renovation, so instead of investing the time and money in that he decided to completely redo the basement that we don't use, then he proceeded to do a very large landscaping project, built a shed etc. Now we have another major issue ($10k) with the house, so instead of fixing it, he built a garage ($20k). If I bring up the other actual issues that need to be fixed he gets very upset, starts complaining that he's broke and there's no time to do anything. Then the next day I'll come home and he's started the project he wanted to do anyway.

 

My husband seems to have no respect for me at all, and when I bring it up he just gets mad and defensive and turns it around and blames me for something. He is always asking for my help for everything he does, fixing the car, building something, making the bed, putting on his boots, so if something doesn't go how he likes it he blames it on me.

 

Its now to the point that I won't offer to help him with anything for 2 main reasons. He is constantly complaining about whatever it is we're doing, and its not just the common dropping a hammer and swearing about it, its more like screaming and yelling that life sucks and he startes throwing things around and breaking things. And the other reason is that I am not a mechanic, carpenter, engineer, etc. so I don't know about the majority of stuff he expects I should, so he gets mad at me anyway if I can't help him.

 

I guess I'm ranting here, sorry about that, what I would like is some feedback if anyone else has these type of problems and what worked best for them. He's not a bad person, he has major issues and I want to help him since this is a marriage worth saving.

 

Thanks

[giotto]

Sounds like he is depressed to me... how's your intimacy level? And sex life? Do you have kids? Seems to me his anger stems from some deep issue in your relationship.

[Jeana]

Sex lifes okay (1-2/wk),but it could be better, no kids, he has had anger issues all his life, he knows its a problem. I know there are anger management classes and he could try councelling, but I'm just not sure how effective it is.

[ver13]

He is really unhappy about something or he is worried even though he is not saying it up front. From what you said he finds fault in almost everything and everyone that are in his life at this time. He also is treating you like his care taker instead of his wife and since he is hiding his true feelings from everyone else ie...Mr Nice guy act only you can see that he is truly going through something. If you can get him into counseling that will help him greatly. But he's going to have to think that it's his idea or it's not going to happen. maybe a close family friend can get through to him.

[giotto]

Sex lifes okay (1-2/wk),but it could be better, no kids, he has had anger issues all his life, he knows its a problem. I know there are anger management classes and he could try councelling, but I'm just not sure how effective it is.

 

well, he really needs some therapy to sort himself out. Can you talk to him about it?

[SummersEve]

In my opinion, as often happens in a marriage, he has found a coping mechanism for all of his problems, which is taking it all out on you. I do not think he will change on is own because to him, his problem is already handled if you see what I'm saying. You are the one who will have to make a change happen if you are no longer willing to accept this arrangement of his. I would go to counseling, who cares if he comes or not. They will show you this whole thing from a brand new perspective and his little games won't stand a chance then. Just my opinion, good luck.

[angie2443]

your husband is an abusive man. He shows all the classic signs. He blame-shifts, presents a good persona to the outside world while treating you like dirt, and he throws things in anger.

 

These men rarely change and the abuse will increase. You can't win. If you back down, you're controlled. If you stand up to him, he'll either play nice for a while to throw you off the track, increase his abuse to control you better, or find more subtle ways to keep you down.

 

Read the book "Angry and Controlling men" by Lundy (I forgot the complete title) if you can. It will explain a lot.

 

Also, MC and personal counsiling for the abuser usually back fire and make the abuser more skilled. Abusers are experts at lying and twisting things to put themselves in a better light. There also good at finding other tactics to manipulate and a counsiler can teach these to him without even knowing it.

 

Please be careful. Good luck!

[SummersEve]

 

Also, MC and personal counsiling for the abuser usually back fire and make the abuser more skilled. Abusers are experts at lying and twisting things to put themselves in a better light. There also good at finding other tactics to manipulate and a counsiler can teach these to him without even knowing it.

 

Please be careful. Good luck!

 

Good point.

[dreamingoftigers]

Hi, this is my first post, I'll try to make it to the point, I know these are serious issues but I'm interested in how others deal with it....

 

My husband is like Jekyl and Hyde, to everyone he is very nice, considerate, respectful, everyone loves him. When its just him and I he is disrespectful, angry, negative, complains about everything and everyone and is generally miserable. And this isn't just once in a while, its constant, everyday negativity.

 

I usually end up giving in to whatever he wants just so I don't have to listen to him whine and get angry, regardless of money, time or commitment. For example, when we bought our house a few years ago it needed a serious washroom renovation, so instead of investing the time and money in that he decided to completely redo the basement that we don't use, then he proceeded to do a very large landscaping project, built a shed etc. Now we have another major issue ($10k) with the house, so instead of fixing it, he built a garage ($20k). If I bring up the other actual issues that need to be fixed he gets very upset, starts complaining that he's broke and there's no time to do anything. Then the next day I'll come home and he's started the project he wanted to do anyway.

 

My husband seems to have no respect for me at all, and when I bring it up he just gets mad and defensive and turns it around and blames me for something. He is always asking for my help for everything he does, fixing the car, building something, making the bed, putting on his boots, so if something doesn't go how he likes it he blames it on me.

 

He needs help putting on his boots? Seriously?

 

Its now to the point that I won't offer to help him with anything for 2 main reasons. He is constantly complaining about whatever it is we're doing, and its not just the common dropping a hammer and swearing about it, its more like screaming and yelling that life sucks and he startes throwing things around and breaking things. And the other reason is that I am not a mechanic, carpenter, engineer, etc. so I don't know about the majority of stuff he expects I should, so he gets mad at me anyway if I can't help him.

 

This is one of the things that drives me the most crazy about my H.

 

I guess I'm ranting here, sorry about that, what I would like is some feedback if anyone else has these type of problems and what worked best for them. He's not a bad person, he has major issues and I want to help him since this is a marriage worth saving.

 

Thanks

 

Oh yeah, these guys are fun. You just described my husband.

 

Okay, first things first:

 

1. You are probably nervous to offend him and he drops his anger randomly and with no notice. Right?

 

2. You get defensive or have to ignore or or just go with whatever the flow is right?

 

3. Whenever you set a boundary or bottom line, he tests the **** out of you, right?

 

4. If you ask him for things, he ignores it or gets tempermental or makes promises that he doesn't follow through with, right?

 

5. Everything bad happens to him, and if you point out that bad things happen to other people too, they "aren't as bad" or "well there's this other thing" or "you aren't being understanding." Right?

 

I have a pretty good guess of what his childhood was like. So, who is the victim in his immediate family? Just curious.

 

To help out: it actually is going to have to start with you, and it is going to be tough at first, but once you start with it and get different responses, things get easier to implement. It is that first change that is really tough. I'll tell you what has made massive change for me.

 

Act positive. Period. Act positive when he is being a stupid jerk. It is hard as Hell to muster the energy to do this. Just remain happy, friendly, caring, decent while he is having his emotional reaction.

 

DO NOT take the bait to emotionally react in any negative or defensive way. Period. When he starts in with the blaming, simply respond with something like "I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion." And drop it. Keep the tone neutral, absolutely neutral. Don't be cold, just don't show your irritation. Don't play his game. He wants you reactive so that it gives him permission to dump all over you.

 

Don't give it to him, not one inch, not one speck. Do not react defensively or upset wise or angry. Look at the behaviour he is doing and discount it completely.

 

If it crosses the abuse line in any way, draw your line. Neutral tone: "I am not going to accept being talked to like that. I deserve better treatment so this conversation is going to end unless we can talk like adults." If he wants to blow a fit, drop it and walk away. Drive away to cool down if you have to. Do not give him that reaction. He snags your power the second he gets that reaction.

 

If he gets triggered and angry about something, if his delivery is negative and irritating, try to find the feeling part of his statement and work it: "I imagine that that must be frustrating." It puts that ownership back on him. He has to work through feeling that. He might not even know what he is feeling, he just acts.

 

Don't bring up any hot-button issues for a few weeks or so, let them hang. If you are at all like me, you pursued everything to Hell and back because he avoided every damn thing. Let it drop for now, let the consequences sink slowly in.

 

Men can be really funny characters. My husband for instance is very stubborn and determined: if we were going to climb a mountain together and I offered to help clip his harness in, he would get upset and act like I had no faith in him to do it himself. He would then climb up the mountain without a harness just to prove a point. The point that he would have proven of course is that he is an idiot for climbing the mountain without a harness over something so stupid. But he wouldn't see it that way.

 

He would see it as: his abilities got challenged and he had to prove that he was better then that and because you challenged his abilities, you made him have to put himself at risk to show you otherwise. Your fault.

 

Low self-esteem in these guys for sure, they have these bad triggers happen to them and then you take all of their power of choice away!

 

But on the other hand: if he asked for help clipping his harness and you were busy, or already partway up the mountain, instead of hooking in his own harness, he would climb up the mountain without one to prove a point. Of course that point he would have again proven is that he is an idiot for climbing up the mountain without a harness.

 

But he would blame you because you didn't help him thereby making him climb up the mountain with no harness. No responsibility for his own choices.

 

These men are literally infantile in anger. And often they feel like they can't make their own choices because they are intimidated by any mood or emotional reaction that their wife gives them. Often they will pursue their own choices by lying about them or being passive-aggressive because they can't stand up to you in a healthy way. (no matter how normal you are). Often they can't even say that they simply disagree with you, or allow you to simply disagree with them. Strangely enough, despite the anger, aggressiveness and other weird behaviours, these men are often conflict-avoidant. They cannot handle the moods from others that they dish out. Any disagreement looks like too much of a "challenge" or "undermining."

 

My husband was unrepentant for cheating because I cried so much about it. He didn't see it as an expression for my pain that needed comforting as much as he saw me attacking him, 'making him feel like a ****bag.'

 

So to remedy this, we separate out the lines of responsibility: check out The Dance of Anger. Wonderful book, a classic. He is responsible for his behaviour, not you, so don't ever let him put that on you.

 

If he says "you made me so angry." Don't apologize, don't defend and don't fight back. Only hear the "angry" part and remove the "you." Ask him what 'behaviour' he is angry about. If he says "you just always do things to show that you are so much better then me." (or some crap like that), let it roll away. He is pressing your buttons. You respond "That sucks that you have to deal with feeling that way. I'll be here to listen if you want to talk about it." Neutral tone. Nothing snappy. Nothing sarcastic. Nothing doormat. It is his feeling, don't argue with it, but don't let him that you accept it as gospel either. Then drop it. His anger is his problem. Walk away if you have to. If he's angry but not dickish, that is not a trigger. Don't let the fact that he is upset or angry become something to react to. He can be upset, he can be angry, he can be negative. But he can't treat you like a dick unless you let him cross that line. We teach our kids to walk away from a fight, but sometimes it is damned tempting when it is in your kitchen.

 

Many times when my husband blameshifts I say: "no one is making you do this, I may not like your choice but no one has a gun to your head and you can make your own decision."

 

Often these men view you maternally. Don't take care of him on an emotional level, not one little iota. He can put his own boots on like a big boy.

 

Don't be cold about anything, just be practical. If you don't want to do it, don't. If there is something he said that he is going to do but hasn't done and you've asked 6 times. Get someone else to do it, or do it yourself. Show no dependence on him.

 

Do everything for yourself that is in your power. Leave him to take care of his share of responsibilities.

 

If you have shared responsibilities, i.e. bills that need paying. Share no emotion on why you feel something needs to be done. Make no "you" statements. If at all possible avoid the word "you" altogether.

 

i.e.: "Hi dear. It seems that we still have an issue with the bathroom not being done. What do we need to do to get it done?"

 

First of all, support whatever committment he gives you. Tell him that you know he will get it done, you just want a date that it will be started/ended. Get solid info as often as you can, make sure that the planning is neutral toned. He can't play victim if you haven't reacted harshly, he may try but it will be short-lived.

 

If he avoids (i.e. "I'll do it this weekend" and then disappears to do whatever else with no solid plan). Give him a week. Drop it for a little bit, then start doing it yourself. Look some things up on the internet. You see, your goal isn't to get in a push and pull fight with him, it is to get that bathroom done. If you have an employee that isn't showing up to work, you don't nag at him or ignore the problem or give him a raise to motivate him. You take the job away from him and find someone that will do it. It isn't anything personal. You just need someone that can get things done.

 

If you think that this means "he wins" you are not right. You see, if he sees you doing more for yourself and not taking his negative bull**** AND you aren't acting like the enemy (in fact you are being friendly and giving him free rein on making choices) he is not going to know what the Hell is going on.

 

Make everything about a neutral goal. As much as you possibly can. "It appears that the trash isn't being taken to the back? What needs to change for this to happen or it is just requiring a reminder?"

 

If he asks what is going on, just tell him you've been thinking differently about things. If he asks you what you mean, change the topic. Even say "its personal." Let him stew, ignore this.

 

Don't take care of him in ways that he should be taking care of himself. Period. It actually shows a lack of faith in his abilities, even if he asks you to take care of him that way (the boots thing, come on). Don't shame him about not doing it, just say "no."

 

When you are angry, sad or hurt: state it matter of factly. "I did not receive a gift on our anniversary. It was sadly missed, that caused me to feel quite hurt and neglected." Write it down if you have to if you can't deliver it without wanted to smack a cast iron frying pan down on his head. Then drop it and go for a walk.

 

Your man is going to see "mommy" not doing "mommy" things. You aren't being mean about any of this. In fact he is probably getting pretty damn nervous by now. Things will start getting mysteriously done. You are also showing him that you have faith in him.

 

In your husband says: "I am going to build a rocket launcher in our backyard" You say: "That sounds like an interesting idea. How did you think of doing that?" He says "I watched some dumb movie and got a dumb idea" You say "I am sure that you will find a way to work that into your schedule. Just please don't forget about the bathroom reno."

 

Now it seems that you support his ideas and have faith in him to take care of his responsibilities. He will actually probably be more motivated to take care of the bathroom reno, and the rocket launcher will probably not make an appearance after he thinks it through a bit (hopefully).

 

I know a lot of these answers may seem "cut and paste" and at first your husband may act like he is from a different galaxy in his thinking, but as soon as you take the push-and-pull aspect of the conflict away and turn it into a point on a distant map that neither one of you has an emotional attachment to, it becomes less of a reason to fight.

 

I know it seems very counter-intuitive because you figure if your guard comes down, he will really flood in then. Truth is, he may for a week or two, even a month. He may be a bitching tirade. (Mine only lasted a week). But then once he realizes that you aren't the enemy and he starts to feel like a dumbass without justification, then the changes start to happen. Lots of these passive-agressive bottle-and-explode types feel like their wives have no faith in them and that they have to fight to get what they want. (even if they don't realize it).

 

Once they start seeing that their choices are just that: theirs, they tend to be better about making them. Once they see that you respect their choices and not criticize their judgment, they are even more apt to ask for your opinion and respect your input (because now you aren't the enemy). They also feel more confident because their wife clearly has enough faith in them to do things for themselves.

 

Don't criticize what they actually do, in fact notice the positive things that he does (i.e. "wow the garage looks great.") and ignore the negative (for now).

 

If the nail gun jams and he is in the mood from Hell "the f-ing this and the f-ing that." Let him for a bit if he isn't aiming at you. Don't jump in the second he gets angry or frustrated, just let him deal with it. The second he jumps onto you, draw the line.

 

It sounds tough and it is at first. I am sure that you think "if I just let him have his and and act as though I think he is capable of making great choices when he clearly isn't, then he is going to make things even worse." I thought that too, I thought, "really, you have got to be kidding me. Stop talking about my husband's addiction? What? Doesn't that go against common sense." But I did it and within two weeks he realized that if I could pull back and leave him to his own devices while taking care of myself, then he could easily lose me for the way that he has treated me. He smartened up. Quickly.

 

If you think it is tough to support your husband's clearly flawed thinking, realize that you are not alone. My husband decided that he was going to go and live in the back of a rental car and panhandle to pay for his expenses because he had gotten so behind on his half of things when I kicked him out. This would seem like manipulation or a hot-button issue. Seems mental too, something to freak out over or at least say "that really isn't a very good idea. You really aren't setting a good example for our daughter."

 

I did the opposite, I told him that if he wanted to do that, that he had the determination to suceed at it. And good luck to him and have a nice trip. So off he went. All he wants to do now is come back home and straighten things out. Wants to sort out his life and finish treatment.

 

When they go to extremes to get a reaction out of you and you don't give them one, they start to see how nuts they are acting. They can't say to themselves "she made me do it because she got all moody and angry again." There is no one else to blame because it is purely their choice.

 

My husband can't claim that he had no choice because he couldn't come home and work out his issues. He is where he is because he chose to be. And now he doesn't want to be there, so he is choosing to stop. If you are friendly, confident and non-reactive your h will want to be with you, and the vast majority of the time he won't risk that by acting like a jackass anymore.

 

I am not in any way saying that these things are your fault. At all. In fact they aren't. He may not change, but odds are his outbursts will decrease around you if he doesn't feel that well-deserved resistance. I know it is very strange how they don't seem to trust you when you have stood by them for so many years. If you get to the point where you are quite close and intimate and he trusts you, talk to him about Anger Management.

 

Under no circumstances allow him to abuse you, but let him vent. Just keep plucking at the positive. I now have a personal policy that if I don't have the energy to deal with my husband positively, I don't deal with him at all. He either has to wait or I have to figure out how to be positive. And it has been damned tough but I refuse to let him lower my personal dignity so that I whine and complain with him in order to bond. It isn't healthy. Don't play his game and he can't win it.

[Woman In Blue]

Yup, I had one of those. Angry all the time, emotionally and verbally abusive, had many ghosts from a past of alcoholism, etc. etc.

 

I didn't read a book, I didn't have a play-by-play "how to deal with an angry SOB" manual, and I put up with it for about 2 years. When I couldn't do it anymore, I told him I was leaving him. He begged for "6 months" to turn it all around by going to therapy, etc. etc.

 

By 4 months he STILL hadn't made any type of effort to turn things around and I wasn't going to beg him to do it. I'm a firm believer in actions being louder than words.

 

So I told him I was leaving him and did, about 3 or 4 months later once I was able to get myself set up elsewhere.

 

Life is too damned short to sell off pieces of your soul for some angry son of a b*itch. Let HIM deal with his issues. Why should his flaws become YOUR burden to bear and YOUR project to learn how to live with? Give him 6 months to clean his act up or leave his sorry ass.

[dreamingoftigers]

Yup, I had one of those. Angry all the time, emotionally and verbally abusive, had many ghosts from a past of alcoholism, etc. etc.

 

I didn't read a book, I didn't have a play-by-play "how to deal with an angry SOB" manual, and I put up with it for about 2 years. When I couldn't do it anymore, I told him I was leaving him. He begged for "6 months" to turn it all around by going to therapy, etc. etc.

 

By 4 months he STILL hadn't made any type of effort to turn things around and I wasn't going to beg him to do it. I'm a firm believer in actions being louder than words.

 

So I told him I was leaving him and did, about 3 or 4 months later once I was able to get myself set up elsewhere.

 

Life is too damned short to sell off pieces of your soul for some angry son of a b*itch. Let HIM deal with his issues. Why should his flaws become YOUR burden to bear and YOUR project to learn how to live with? Give him 6 months to clean his act up or leave his sorry ass.

 

Because she needs to not let someone treat her this way either. Often if a woman gets together with one of them, it doesn't stop there. There is no "should" except for she "should" follow-through on whatever choice she makes.

 

Without healthy communication patterns, it doesn't matter who is next, a similar dynamic gets set. And yes, make sure it doesn't drag on. As well, she said she thinks the marriage is worth saving.

 

I never post contrary to a poster's relational decision unless there are some really extenuating circumstances.

 

Good for you for picking a direction and sticking with it.

[angie2443]

 

Without healthy communication patterns, it doesn't matter who is next, a similar dynamic gets set. And yes, make sure it doesn't drag on. As well, she said she thinks the marriage is worth saving.

 

.

 

If I'm reading this right, this is dead wrong. An abuser doesn't abuse because faulty communication lead to a bad relationship dynamic. An abuser yells, hits, name calls, or throw things to intimidate their partner and get what they want from them. They are controlling people, plain and simple. It doesn't matter who they hook up with, when they feel confortable to come out to their partner and let their "real self" shine through, then it's like a light switch went on and they can't be stopped. If you're assertive (not aggresive) they'll say "you keep pushing my buttons" and use that as an excuse to hurt you. If you try to please them, they might say "you're enabeling me by not standing up for yourself and this is why I can't stop bieng aggresive with you". If you act calm and nuetral, they become angry because you're "confusing them". They might act better if they think you're leaving or if they think you're catching on to their control tactics. Once they get everything calmed down, they'll go right back to their old ways.

[dreamingoftigers]

If I'm reading this right, this is dead wrong. An abuser doesn't abuse because faulty communication lead to a bad relationship dynamic. An abuser yells, hits, name calls, or throw things to intimidate their partner and get what they want from them. They are controlling people, plain and simple. It doesn't matter who they hook up with, when they feel confortable to come out to their partner and let their "real self" shine through, then it's like a light switch went on and they can't be stopped. If you're assertive (not aggresive) they'll say "you keep pushing my buttons" and use that as an excuse to hurt you. If you try to please them, they might say "you're enabeling me by not standing up for yourself and this is why I can't stop bieng aggresive with you". If you act calm and nuetral, they become angry because you're "confusing them". They might act better if they think you're leaving or if they think you're catching on to their control tactics. Once they get everything calmed down, they'll go right back to their old ways.

 

Okay, often people will leave one poor relationship with a dysfunctional person and repeat the same pattern in the next one because they go looking for the opposite type of person and that actually creates very similar communication patterns.

 

People are notorious for not getting at the communication core issues that set up the problem to being with.

 

Of course this can be altered if she was willing and able to examine down to the last iota who she is attracting and why. Often women that attract abusers haven't got and enforced the crystal clearest boundaries. Because if those boundaries were enforced then the abuse couldn't slowly slip by.

 

This is not to say that being abused in any way is the fault of the victim. At all! Just because I leave my door unlocked does not allow or give someone the right to come in and steal my TV. It just means that I gave myself some extra vulnerability as far as that's concerned. If someone steals my TV, and I still leave my door unlocked and someone steals my TV again, it doesn't mean that they were allowed to do that either.

 

It may just mean that I have to change the way I leave my houseor accept that some jackass will probably at some point steal my TVs.

[bugaboo11]

Oh yeah, these guys are fun. You just described my husband.

 

Okay, first things first:

 

1. You are probably nervous to offend him and he drops his anger randomly and with no notice. Right?

 

2. You get defensive or have to ignore or or just go with whatever the flow is right?

 

3. Whenever you set a boundary or bottom line, he tests the **** out of you, right?

 

4. If you ask him for things, he ignores it or gets tempermental or makes promises that he doesn't follow through with, right?

 

5. Everything bad happens to him, and if you point out that bad things happen to other people too, they "aren't as bad" or "well there's this other thing" or "you aren't being understanding." Right?

 

I have a pretty good guess of what his childhood was like. So, who is the victim in his immediate family? Just curious.

 

To help out: it actually is going to have to start with you, and it is going to be tough at first, but once you start with it and get different responses, things get easier to implement. It is that first change that is really tough. I'll tell you what has made massive change for me.

 

Act positive. Period. Act positive when he is being a stupid jerk. It is hard as Hell to muster the energy to do this. Just remain happy, friendly, caring, decent while he is having his emotional reaction.

 

DO NOT take the bait to emotionally react in any negative or defensive way. Period. When he starts in with the blaming, simply respond with something like "I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion." And drop it. Keep the tone neutral, absolutely neutral. Don't be cold, just don't show your irritation. Don't play his game. He wants you reactive so that it gives him permission to dump all over you.

 

Don't give it to him, not one inch, not one speck. Do not react defensively or upset wise or angry. Look at the behaviour he is doing and discount it completely.

 

If it crosses the abuse line in any way, draw your line. Neutral tone: "I am not going to accept being talked to like that. I deserve better treatment so this conversation is going to end unless we can talk like adults." If he wants to blow a fit, drop it and walk away. Drive away to cool down if you have to. Do not give him that reaction. He snags your power the second he gets that reaction.

 

If he gets triggered and angry about something, if his delivery is negative and irritating, try to find the feeling part of his statement and work it: "I imagine that that must be frustrating." It puts that ownership back on him. He has to work through feeling that. He might not even know what he is feeling, he just acts.

 

Don't bring up any hot-button issues for a few weeks or so, let them hang. If you are at all like me, you pursued everything to Hell and back because he avoided every damn thing. Let it drop for now, let the consequences sink slowly in.

 

Men can be really funny characters. My husband for instance is very stubborn and determined: if we were going to climb a mountain together and I offered to help clip his harness in, he would get upset and act like I had no faith in him to do it himself. He would then climb up the mountain without a harness just to prove a point. The point that he would have proven of course is that he is an idiot for climbing the mountain without a harness over something so stupid. But he wouldn't see it that way.

 

He would see it as: his abilities got challenged and he had to prove that he was better then that and because you challenged his abilities, you made him have to put himself at risk to show you otherwise. Your fault.

 

Low self-esteem in these guys for sure, they have these bad triggers happen to them and then you take all of their power of choice away!

 

But on the other hand: if he asked for help clipping his harness and you were busy, or already partway up the mountain, instead of hooking in his own harness, he would climb up the mountain without one to prove a point. Of course that point he would have again proven is that he is an idiot for climbing up the mountain without a harness.

 

But he would blame you because you didn't help him thereby making him climb up the mountain with no harness. No responsibility for his own choices.

 

These men are literally infantile in anger. And often they feel like they can't make their own choices because they are intimidated by any mood or emotional reaction that their wife gives them. Often they will pursue their own choices by lying about them or being passive-aggressive because they can't stand up to you in a healthy way. (no matter how normal you are). Often they can't even say that they simply disagree with you, or allow you to simply disagree with them. Strangely enough, despite the anger, aggressiveness and other weird behaviours, these men are often conflict-avoidant. They cannot handle the moods from others that they dish out. Any disagreement looks like too much of a "challenge" or "undermining."

 

My husband was unrepentant for cheating because I cried so much about it. He didn't see it as an expression for my pain that needed comforting as much as he saw me attacking him, 'making him feel like a ****bag.'

 

So to remedy this, we separate out the lines of responsibility: check out The Dance of Anger. Wonderful book, a classic. He is responsible for his behaviour, not you, so don't ever let him put that on you.

 

If he says "you made me so angry." Don't apologize, don't defend and don't fight back. Only hear the "angry" part and remove the "you." Ask him what 'behaviour' he is angry about. If he says "you just always do things to show that you are so much better then me." (or some crap like that), let it roll away. He is pressing your buttons. You respond "That sucks that you have to deal with feeling that way. I'll be here to listen if you want to talk about it." Neutral tone. Nothing snappy. Nothing sarcastic. Nothing doormat. It is his feeling, don't argue with it, but don't let him that you accept it as gospel either. Then drop it. His anger is his problem. Walk away if you have to. If he's angry but not dickish, that is not a trigger. Don't let the fact that he is upset or angry become something to react to. He can be upset, he can be angry, he can be negative. But he can't treat you like a dick unless you let him cross that line. We teach our kids to walk away from a fight, but sometimes it is damned tempting when it is in your kitchen.

 

Many times when my husband blameshifts I say: "no one is making you do this, I may not like your choice but no one has a gun to your head and you can make your own decision."

 

Often these men view you maternally. Don't take care of him on an emotional level, not one little iota. He can put his own boots on like a big boy.

 

Don't be cold about anything, just be practical. If you don't want to do it, don't. If there is something he said that he is going to do but hasn't done and you've asked 6 times. Get someone else to do it, or do it yourself. Show no dependence on him.

 

Do everything for yourself that is in your power. Leave him to take care of his share of responsibilities.

 

If you have shared responsibilities, i.e. bills that need paying. Share no emotion on why you feel something needs to be done. Make no "you" statements. If at all possible avoid the word "you" altogether.

 

i.e.: "Hi dear. It seems that we still have an issue with the bathroom not being done. What do we need to do to get it done?"

 

First of all, support whatever committment he gives you. Tell him that you know he will get it done, you just want a date that it will be started/ended. Get solid info as often as you can, make sure that the planning is neutral toned. He can't play victim if you haven't reacted harshly, he may try but it will be short-lived.

 

If he avoids (i.e. "I'll do it this weekend" and then disappears to do whatever else with no solid plan). Give him a week. Drop it for a little bit, then start doing it yourself. Look some things up on the internet. You see, your goal isn't to get in a push and pull fight with him, it is to get that bathroom done. If you have an employee that isn't showing up to work, you don't nag at him or ignore the problem or give him a raise to motivate him. You take the job away from him and find someone that will do it. It isn't anything personal. You just need someone that can get things done.

 

If you think that this means "he wins" you are not right. You see, if he sees you doing more for yourself and not taking his negative bull**** AND you aren't acting like the enemy (in fact you are being friendly and giving him free rein on making choices) he is not going to know what the Hell is going on.

 

Make everything about a neutral goal. As much as you possibly can. "It appears that the trash isn't being taken to the back? What needs to change for this to happen or it is just requiring a reminder?"

 

If he asks what is going on, just tell him you've been thinking differently about things. If he asks you what you mean, change the topic. Even say "its personal." Let him stew, ignore this.

 

Don't take care of him in ways that he should be taking care of himself. Period. It actually shows a lack of faith in his abilities, even if he asks you to take care of him that way (the boots thing, come on). Don't shame him about not doing it, just say "no."

 

When you are angry, sad or hurt: state it matter of factly. "I did not receive a gift on our anniversary. It was sadly missed, that caused me to feel quite hurt and neglected." Write it down if you have to if you can't deliver it without wanted to smack a cast iron frying pan down on his head. Then drop it and go for a walk.

 

Your man is going to see "mommy" not doing "mommy" things. You aren't being mean about any of this. In fact he is probably getting pretty damn nervous by now. Things will start getting mysteriously done. You are also showing him that you have faith in him.

 

In your husband says: "I am going to build a rocket launcher in our backyard" You say: "That sounds like an interesting idea. How did you think of doing that?" He says "I watched some dumb movie and got a dumb idea" You say "I am sure that you will find a way to work that into your schedule. Just please don't forget about the bathroom reno."

 

Now it seems that you support his ideas and have faith in him to take care of his responsibilities. He will actually probably be more motivated to take care of the bathroom reno, and the rocket launcher will probably not make an appearance after he thinks it through a bit (hopefully).

 

I know a lot of these answers may seem "cut and paste" and at first your husband may act like he is from a different galaxy in his thinking, but as soon as you take the push-and-pull aspect of the conflict away and turn it into a point on a distant map that neither one of you has an emotional attachment to, it becomes less of a reason to fight.

 

I know it seems very counter-intuitive because you figure if your guard comes down, he will really flood in then. Truth is, he may for a week or two, even a month. He may be a bitching tirade. (Mine only lasted a week). But then once he realizes that you aren't the enemy and he starts to feel like a dumbass without justification, then the changes start to happen. Lots of these passive-agressive bottle-and-explode types feel like their wives have no faith in them and that they have to fight to get what they want. (even if they don't realize it).

 

Once they start seeing that their choices are just that: theirs, they tend to be better about making them. Once they see that you respect their choices and not criticize their judgment, they are even more apt to ask for your opinion and respect your input (because now you aren't the enemy). They also feel more confident because their wife clearly has enough faith in them to do things for themselves.

 

Don't criticize what they actually do, in fact notice the positive things that he does (i.e. "wow the garage looks great.") and ignore the negative (for now).

 

If the nail gun jams and he is in the mood from Hell "the f-ing this and the f-ing that." Let him for a bit if he isn't aiming at you. Don't jump in the second he gets angry or frustrated, just let him deal with it. The second he jumps onto you, draw the line.

 

It sounds tough and it is at first. I am sure that you think "if I just let him have his and and act as though I think he is capable of making great choices when he clearly isn't, then he is going to make things even worse." I thought that too, I thought, "really, you have got to be kidding me. Stop talking about my husband's addiction? What? Doesn't that go against common sense." But I did it and within two weeks he realized that if I could pull back and leave him to his own devices while taking care of myself, then he could easily lose me for the way that he has treated me. He smartened up. Quickly.

 

If you think it is tough to support your husband's clearly flawed thinking, realize that you are not alone. My husband decided that he was going to go and live in the back of a rental car and panhandle to pay for his expenses because he had gotten so behind on his half of things when I kicked him out. This would seem like manipulation or a hot-button issue. Seems mental too, something to freak out over or at least say "that really isn't a very good idea. You really aren't setting a good example for our daughter."

 

I did the opposite, I told him that if he wanted to do that, that he had the determination to suceed at it. And good luck to him and have a nice trip. So off he went. All he wants to do now is come back home and straighten things out. Wants to sort out his life and finish treatment.

 

When they go to extremes to get a reaction out of you and you don't give them one, they start to see how nuts they are acting. They can't say to themselves "she made me do it because she got all moody and angry again." There is no one else to blame because it is purely their choice.

 

My husband can't claim that he had no choice because he couldn't come home and work out his issues. He is where he is because he chose to be. And now he doesn't want to be there, so he is choosing to stop. If you are friendly, confident and non-reactive your h will want to be with you, and the vast majority of the time he won't risk that by acting like a jackass anymore.

 

I am not in any way saying that these things are your fault. At all. In fact they aren't. He may not change, but odds are his outbursts will decrease around you if he doesn't feel that well-deserved resistance. I know it is very strange how they don't seem to trust you when you have stood by them for so many years. If you get to the point where you are quite close and intimate and he trusts you, talk to him about Anger Management.

 

Under no circumstances allow him to abuse you, but let him vent. Just keep plucking at the positive. I now have a personal policy that if I don't have the energy to deal with my husband positively, I don't deal with him at all. He either has to wait or I have to figure out how to be positive. And it has been damned tough but I refuse to let him lower my personal dignity so that I whine and complain with him in order to bond. It isn't healthy. Don't play his game and he can't win it.

 

 

Wow--this takes sooo much energy to do doesn't it? Or does it finaly become second nature---oh G-D thats my husband too.

[dreamingoftigers]

Wow--this takes sooo much energy to do doesn't it? Or does it finaly become second nature---oh G-D thats my husband too.

 

I'll let you know if I get to the "second nature" stage.

[LittleTiger]

DOT, I just wanted to say, what an absolutely brilliant post on how to handle an angry and abusive man.

 

You're doing well girl - I'm impressed!

 

To the OP - exactly what DOT says.

 

It takes patience, a huge amount of emotional control (especially if you're naturally an emotional person) and a lot of love and compassion - but it can be done.

 

Good luck.

[betterdeal]

Good practical advice here. It's an unhealthy set of interactions and reactions that is making both people unhappy.

 

Both men and women are capable of fitting either role, (having been in both positions in the same co-dependent relationship, I know so), and the answer is, as dreamingoftigers has described so well, to establish clear emotional boundaries and ownership of emotions, words and actions, personal self, happiness, life.

 

I found the The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing to be the best book on the subject, highlighting some unhealthy (abusive) co-dependency behaviours that I hadn't considered before, as well as giving great advice.

[Jeana]

Thanks for all of the responses, I really appreciate the time some of you put in. DOT, your post made me laugh but also sad, that IS him. I have done some research into his behavior, I know its not my fault, his family is F***ed! Not that I'm not at fault here, I can be very cold and distant when he has a fit, its pathetic to see and I loose more respect for him each time it happens. We talked about conselling together and he is up for it, though I know if I get him to actually go, it might be a different story. His miserableness and negativity is so exhausting that at this point I don't want to do anything to 'rock the boat' but I do want to try it, and I will also be picking up all of the book recommendations, the more I know how to handle this the better. I have thought he was abusive as well, but its just not him, which is why I want to try to make it work, it seems like 1 minute he's okay, than the dog barks and all of a sudden he's flipped out and I'm sitting there wondering who is this crazy person, then 10 minutes later he's fine again. But from some of your posts, the behavior didn't get better, and maybe someday soon I'll be in the same boat as well, I"m still fairly young and we don't have kids, we've been together 8 years, feels more like 100 though, again, thanks for all of the advice!

[dreamingoftigers]

Thanks for all of the responses, I really appreciate the time some of you put in. DOT, your post made me laugh but also sad, that IS him. I have done some research into his behavior, I know its not my fault, his family is F***ed! Not that I'm not at fault here, I can be very cold and distant when he has a fit, its pathetic to see and I loose more respect for him each time it happens. We talked about conselling together and he is up for it, though I know if I get him to actually go, it might be a different story. His miserableness and negativity is so exhausting that at this point I don't want to do anything to 'rock the boat' but I do want to try it, and I will also be picking up all of the book recommendations, the more I know how to handle this the better. I have thought he was abusive as well, but its just not him, which is why I want to try to make it work, it seems like 1 minute he's okay, than the dog barks and all of a sudden he's flipped out and I'm sitting there wondering who is this crazy person, then 10 minutes later he's fine again. But from some of your posts, the behavior didn't get better, and maybe someday soon I'll be

in the same boat as well, I"m still fairly young and we don't have kids, we've been together 8 years, feels more like 100 though, again, thanks for all of the advice!

 

Hun, something in his family would have to be ****ed for him to be that way, even if it was unintentional.

 

I can't remember if I mentioned it in the posting because I wrote an epic one earlier and I have to run soon, but EMDR therapy may help him reduce and childhood issues.

 

I have seen changes in the way my husband addresses me but he needed to see the consistency. Oddly enough they need that 'ass-kick' so to say.

 

It isn't easy, it is a process and an investment. A lot of times it is hard not to just snap back, take it personally, run, or take a frying pan to his head. But it can be done. But if he just is too difficult and jerky, call it a day but make damn sure so you don't end up in that make-up/break-up cycle.

 

Happy posting.

[LittleTiger]

Thanks for all of the responses, I really appreciate the time some of you put in. DOT, your post made me laugh but also sad, that IS him. I have done some research into his behavior, I know its not my fault, his family is F***ed! Not that I'm not at fault here, I can be very cold and distant when he has a fit, its pathetic to see and I loose more respect for him each time it happens. We talked about conselling together and he is up for it, though I know if I get him to actually go, it might be a different story. His miserableness and negativity is so exhausting that at this point I don't want to do anything to 'rock the boat' but I do want to try it, and I will also be picking up all of the book recommendations, the more I know how to handle this the better. I have thought he was abusive as well, but its just not him, which is why I want to try to make it work, it seems like 1 minute he's okay, than the dog barks and all of a sudden he's flipped out and I'm sitting there wondering who is this crazy person, then 10 minutes later he's fine again. But from some of your posts, the behavior didn't get better, and maybe someday soon I'll be in the same boat as well, I"m still fairly young and we don't have kids, we've been together 8 years, feels more like 100 though, again, thanks for all of the advice!

 

Jeana, if you can be cold and distant when he's abusing you that's actually a good sign that you can handle him. 'Neutral' is a much better position to take but that's easier to get to from 'cold and distant' than from 'overemotional' which is where most abuse victims end up.

 

If you want to make the marriage work and you're finding his pathetic behaviour is making you lose respect, look at him a different way. When he's behaving badly, imagine him as a three year old child who is terrified of the adult world he has to live in and feels like he has nowhere to turn - because that's what he really is inside.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking the good guy is the real him and the bad guy is isn't. Neither of them are the 'real him'. At the moment he'll never let you, or the rest of the world, see the 'real' him because he's far too ashamed of who he really is.

[Jeana]

Little Tiger, I agree with you completely. When he loses his temper, it is like a 3 year old. I don't get caught up in it and react the way he tries to make me, I will leave the room and take my dogs for a walk, or go read or whatever, then he'll come back and apologize (though its never a real apology) I actually am quite good at distancing myself from it completely, I don't think of myself as a victim here, I am strong, successful and independent, I know that this is something out of my control, but I want to help him with it. No, I'm not the type of women to try and change a man, quite the opposite, but I see him struggling, its exactly what you said about him being terrified, I've thought the same, its sad and I do want to be there for him.

 

DOT, I have thought about the frying pan...good thing for imagination! I will look into the EMDR therapy, I actually printed off your epic post, it sounds like you know exactly what I'm going through.

 

I'm so glad I posted on here, its nice to hear another point of view!

[dreamingoftigers]

Little Tiger, I agree with you completely. When he loses his temper, it is like a 3 year old. I don't get caught up in it and react the way he tries to make me, I will leave the room and take my dogs for a walk, or go read or whatever, then he'll come back and apologize (though its never a real apology) I actually am quite good at distancing myself from it completely, I don't think of myself as a victim here, I am strong, successful and independent, I know that this is something out of my control, but I want to help him with it. No, I'm not the type of women to try and change a man, quite the opposite, but I see him struggling, its exactly what you said about him being terrified, I've thought the same, its sad and I do want to be there for him.

 

DOT, I have thought about the frying pan...good thing for imagination! I will look into the EMDR therapy, I actually printed off your epic post, it sounds like you know exactly what I'm going through.

 

I'm so glad I posted on here, its nice to hear another point of view!

 

:)Thanks, hope it goes better for you.

 

I know it is damn tough, I just blew up at mine today via text.

 

My H just signed back on for EMDR, what a relief!

[Tizzy]

This is crazy. Jeana, no disrespect to you or DOT, but if you have to do everything on DOT's list just to have a marriage worth taking a shot at, I think you should seriously reconsider staying with this guy.

 

I just finished reading an EXCELLENT book by Robin Norwood called "Women Who Love Too Much: When You Keep Hoping and Wishing He'll Change." Great title. Got it off eBay for $5 (shipping and everything). Best thing I ever read, best five bucks I ever spent. Made so much stuff about my life and relationships make sense. The one thing DOT said I do agree with is to address YOUR issues whether you stay with this abusive man or not. That is the only way to change your relationship and love pattern.

 

I know you want to stay and help this man change for the better and be a better person to you, but you gotta take care of you first. Despite the legality on paper, you honestly have no obligation whatsoever to take care of this grown man. He's not taking care of you so you definitely don't need to feel obligated to put yourself down and to the side and to suppress your own needs just to make him happy.

 

Life is about so much more and there are men and people out there that will treat you with love and respect without you having to even ask for it. I don't know about you but those are the type of people I'd rather have in my life. Good luck in whatever you decide to do. He sounds like a doozy.

[lerryjohn]

I do think that either your husband needs real counseling asap or maybe he wants to make your life miserable. Seriously though, I recommend that you talk about this issues and meet half-way. By the way, I used to be a very lone man until I found out about Philippine bride searching tactics and now, I am happily married!

Edited April 6, 2011 by lerryjohn
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