Houston, We Have Contact

[Leda]

1784, I'm curious: did you live with your exes before this one? If so, how long did it take you to move in with them?

 

Disclaimer: I'm not saying your ex isn't selfish. When I posted before, someone said I might be on that "same wavelength"--but when my ex-ex's dad was ill, I made crazy-big sacrifices to go with him so we could both be near his dad, and be together...and I never even complained until tonight! When we are broken up for three years, and I'm mourning about some other guy! It is VERY different circumstances, since we were living together already when his dad got ill. But still. My priority was making it EASIER for him. I don't regret that at all. I know without any doubt whatsoever that he would've done the same for me.

 

BUT--to me in a relationship, if a terminally ill parent weren't involved, a guy who loved "dating" me and then enjoyed going back across a bridge to "refresh" himself--meaning, spending many nights apart--would NOT be a right match.

 

I've been wondering, reading this thread, if time together was a bone of contention BEFORE your mother got ill. If it wasn't, it seems like she just bailed out of selfishness and thinking things weren't living up to her fairytale. But if she spent months and months thinking, "Aaagh, he's going home instead of being with me, and I feel rejected"...while you were thinking, "It's great to date her and then sleep alone, without her, and 'recharge'," that changes things a little.

 

Just a little, because it still does sound like she's selfish. But there are issues in so many relationships with divergent needs and styles. If you two have that issue PRE-DATING your mother's illness, it could be about more than her being selfish, especially if you're in your thirties and have never felt the need to live with someone, and someone seeing living together as an integral sign of romantic and sexual partnership makes you see her as not properly independent. If, on the other hand, you lived with an ex for 3-4 years, it is certainly a non-issue.

 

I think what I realize more than anything is that my ex and I just have different ideas about what love is. It's a pretty simple realization but I feel like it encompasses a lot. It doesn't mean that my idea of love is any better than hers. It just means that the two ideas do not mesh well together. I think I'm willing to give a lot more in my definition. That's me, though. She may look at it as a weakness. She may not respect it. She may think that someone strong would fight more for what he wants instead of giving in to the other person. But I wanted her to be happy and a lot of times I would forgo what I wanted most so that she could have what she wanted most. I put her before me and that wasn't always the best idea for either one of us. And considering that she is already the type to do what makes her happy first, I put myself in a very vulnerable position. I don't blame her. I blame myself.

 

 

 

She may also feel very insecure. Not looking at you as weak at all, but on the contrary, if she felt she wasn't your priority for a while, well before your mother was ill, her insecurities might have built up and become stronger over time. If she only felt that way after you postponed moving in, for an unimpeachable reason--rather than having a buildup of feeling of "he doesn't spend enough time with me"--then it was just selfishness.

 

For many women, texting "I really miss you" and then initiating a dinner and then being put on the spot with "why did you initiate this dinner?" would trigger their defenses, and not hearing from the guy for a couple of weeks wuld be pretty ego crushing. That doesn't mean you should do anything different, but it might mean you're not a good match, if you both need the other to validate and reassure, and you both have trouble communicating honestly.

 

Openhearted, honest communication would mean that everything you've said on these forums, you've also said to her.

[Johnny85]

@Leda,

 

How do you propose 1784 should have handled the situation differently? Having been in a rather similar situation myself, where my ex girlfriend broke up with me, and then contacted me two months later resulting in us spending a day together (only to not contact me again since), I am relatively confident that there is not one thing that I could have done differently to persuade her to come back to me. Similarly, although everyone's situation is different, I think that had 1784 contacted his ex G after they had dinner together, more likely than not, things would not be different today. After my breakup, the more I opened up about my feelings, the further away her heart wandered. After someone makes a decision in life, more likely than not, he or she will stick to it! Some things are simply out of our control; the tricky part is knowing how and when to let go.

[iceweasel6]

1784,

 

I read through all 26 pages and because of what I'm going through now your story struck a cord with me and prompted me to join and post. It's 4 am EST and I have to be up in an hour (spoke to the ex at 11pm and haven't been able to sleep). I will post my story today when I get some free time. Off to get some sleep.

 

Stay strong dude, 2 weeks after seeing her and no contact from her is a drop in the bucket. Your story is yet to be completely written.

[1784]

@Leda

 

I was wondering when you were going to pop into this thread again. You're the only one who asks for her side in any way so it's very interesting for me to respond to your inquiries.

 

Yes, our time spent together has always been something that's been an issue. For all intents and purposes it was a quasi long distance relationship due to the time it took for either of us to get to the other. It was something that we both wanted to change and moving in was the way we were going to remedy it.

 

As always, things aren't as simple as a post on a Web site, though. She doesn't sleep particularly well, particularly next to someone else. It was something that I knew right from the beginning of our relationship. Oftentimes she was more than happy to have me go home so that she could get a peaceful night's sleep. One of the things we really wanted to do was get a bigger bed so that sleeping wouldn't be as much of an issue.

 

In addition, I traveled to see her at her apartment 99.9% of the time. I would rush home from work, jump in the shower, drive an hour, try to find parking, etc. I gladly did it but it was never without its stress. On the rare occasion that she came to me she would reiterate just what a pain it was to go thru. Obviously we couldn't see one another every night. It just wasn't doable. Neither one of us wanted to live out of a suitcase at the other's apartment either. Also, I have a pet that needs tending to on a daily basis. She also had a roommate up until December. I never wanted to feel like an intrusion. So all of these factors played a part in us not spending as much time with one another as we would have liked.

 

These aren't excuses, mind you, these are realities. I loved spending time with her. If I ever wanted to leave her it wasn't because I didn't want to be with her - it was because I wanted to take a shower in my own shower and things of that nature. I think that's understandable. But yes, our time together wasn't something that was ideal in either of our eyes.

 

No, I have never lived with a woman before. In the relationships I've had over the years it just hasn't been something that's ever really been considered until now. The timing was just never right. I thought it was right this time until the situation with my mom worsened. I was ready to move in with her, whether that was at her current residence or at a location closer in proximity to my mom. I knew that living with her was an essential step that we both felt we needed to take before getting engaged. Not only that, I really couldn't wait to see her every day and night. It really would have been so nice to come home, cook for her, talk about our days, etc. I was really looking forward to it. In fact, she never had any intentions of "living in sin" when we first got together. She figured she'd get engaged/married and only then move in with her husband. Due to the distance of our locations we both agreed that living together before engagement was a wise decision for a number of different reasons. I'm not underestimating the importance of the move in at all. It was vital. I just happen to think she could have waited if it (I) was that important to her. I don't see how delaying what we both wanted for what I deemed to be 'good reason' should be a deal-breaker for her. I guess for her, though, it was. It wouldn't have been for me. I know that for sure.

 

I don't know. Maybe she did feel insecure. It's quite possible. You can't give someone ALL your time. I think that's unhealthy. We always agreed that we needed to have more than just 'us'. It was important for the both of us to feel well rounded and not in a little bubble.

 

What I think is this... we were like every other couple. We had some things that were less than ideal but at the end of the day I HONESTLY thought the good we had far outweighed the less than perfect. When we were together things were genuinely great. The time apart definitely hurt us in a number of ways. what can I say? That was our reality. We both wanted to change it. we were going to. Something got in the way (something pretty big). It wasn't a permanent snafu. It was a temporary one. I think if it was really meant to be we would have either come to a compromise (her moving in with me closer to my mom) or she would have been able to wait it out for a few months. I don't see this as being such an ULTIMATE test. I really don't. It wasn't like I was going away for a year. She still would have had me. We would have still had our relationship. We still could have planned things for the future. But she wanted everything now or never. She chose never. You can argue whatever points you like about what she may have needed or what may have been less than perfect. I welcome it. In the end, though, I guess our love wasn't as strong as I thought because I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would have waited for her.

 

Your turn.

[Graceful]

You're the only one who asks for her side in any way so it's very interesting for me to respond to your inquiries.

 

mmmm, that's not entirely true. In my last post, I spoke from what I thought were your ex's points of view. And said that all of your perceptions are from your POV.

 

And I stand by what I said, because the whole gestalt for her is obviously different from yours and what you might define as "selfish" she might define as "not wanting to be on hold" or "solving the problem" (see below quoted from my post) b/c she is a problem solver first, and a compassionate human being second, if you see what I mean.

Anyhow, this is what I said:

 

No matter what you do, and no matter how hard you try to figure out your ex's thoughts, remember you will always be looking through your own lens. YOUR LENS is all you have. You'll never be able to borrow her lens to see things as she sees them. The reason I bring this up is because I believe very strongly that she is not contacting you for the same reason you're not contacting her. She's not going to act on a whim, she's not going to act on sheer emotion, and she's not going to contact you when she's about as clear as she continues to be that she did the right thing. I mean, are you going to contact her because you really wanted to tell her it was good to see her? Are you contacting her to see if she is okay? ETC. So out of respect for yourself and for her, you've gone NC. And so has she. Out of respect for herself and for you. That's how I see it.

 

She solved the problem she had with you, and got herself out of limbo ... (or so she thought ...). And that's her reality. Problem solved. Doesn't mean she's not miserable, doesn't mean she's resolved, doesn't mean a lot of things. But she solved the problem, and to her, that wasn't "giving up" --- that's the way *you* look at it . It was solving a problem in her eyes. That's the way her vision works, her lens. Very different from your lens. I'm not defending her at all, I hope you see that. A person can still feel very badly about an outcome, even when they think they've made a decision using a rational mind.

 

I just wanted to say that even though I was hoping that your ex would have at least thanked you for going to dinner with her a day or two after you two went out, it might have just been too awkward and too difficult for her. Maybe leaving things just as they were when you parted that night was the most suitable ending for that evening the way she saw it. Maybe, for her, it was perfect.

 

It's never one thing. Never. It's going to boil down the "the straw that broke the camel's back" and then you back track to look through the lens as best you can. But it clearly wasn't just the move. It was not wanting to put the entire "agenda" on hold any longer, no matter what the reason. The rest may or may not be moot, b/c what's done is done. And I whole heartedly agree with Johnny -- so so agree -- once a decision is made, there is no turning back.

 

And last, but my no means least, she showed you who she was, not us, but you. She showed you who she was time and time again. She comes first, the agenda comes first, problem solving comes before emotions. Maybe she wanted a diamond engagement ring for all you know, and were supposed to "intuit" that. But the decision was made, and she's firm on it, so she's alone with her agenda, and you have your mum to take care of, and the rest goes off into the great unknown -- as it does for all of us. Take care.

[iceweasel6]

Hello all,

 

First off, you all are an amazing supportive group of people. When I was reading each and every post it's like i could feel the fury at which some words were written, the anticipation of the next post or follow-up, as well as thepain of each key stroke during difficult moments. You all are an incredible group of supportive people who really care about each other and I applaud you all for your concerted effort on this forum to be a light on a dark path, and shoulder to lean on.

 

Secondly, before I share my story, I hope that by sharing I'm not hijacking this thread. I understand it was started by 1784 and I respect his openness to allow other to share their experiences in hopes of gaining better insight and understanding how to proceed forward.

 

To begin with, I met my ex last year in Dallas, TX. I had an early morning meeting. Unknown to me she had been stalking (in a cute way) me for some time. We ended up seeing each other two days later for coffee after work which then turned into dinner. Several weeks later we were dating and we hit it off immediately! It was amazing for the first 3-4 months. However, I had to move to Arlington, VA to go to school. I remember things started to get difficult around the time I moved. While we saw each other every other week each month, we had our bouts of arguments and fights. There were two occasions where I left Dallas after spending the weekend and because we had gotten into a fight, I walked straight to my gate without saying goodbye or hugging her, then I would not talk to her for a few days after landing in Virginia. But then there were times when we saw each other it was so difficult to say goodbye and we were crying at the gate, kissing tears from each other faces. It was so bad that we booked a flight the next weekend.

 

She is a very particular person, to her things have to be a certain way, little things are red flags, and if they don't line up or make sense to her, she feels there is something more. She is very transparent and she knows herself very well. When we first met she told me she had herpes right away, and as a health care provider I said I am interested in her because of who she is, not because of what she has - I accepted her completely and it made her cry with joy. I was not an angel throughout this process while we were dating. I am also very particular, and she describes me as controlling, emotionally immature (I don't express my emotions clearly), she says I don't answer her questions completely (eg: I told her I changed my name when I was a teenager, but I wasn't prepared to tell her what it was because I had made a promise to myself never to repeat it. Finally, I told her what my name was, but I didn't tell her that my brother changed his name, and my mom and dad changed their last name as well). She also says that everything feels like is has to be a battle with me, that I have issues with secrecy (she can't stand secrets), that I don't validate her feelings (several times I failed to just say, "Hey, I understand how you feel", or attempt to see things from her perspective), and I shut her out (by not talking or shutting down), she also says that I have issues with anger (there was an instance where my mentor called my cell phone, and I said I had to take this call, and somehow it got into an argument where I had to take the stance that it's my phone, and I have the right to take a call when I need to take a call especially if it's from someone I think is important, and she needs to respect that), and finally she says that I have immature communication skills. We ended up taking a break in mid January. During that time, I was working on me, learning skills to address some areas of my life that I saw was falling apart. I also saw some deficits in areas which she did not point out and I attempted to address those as well. For two months February and March, things were very tense between us, we would argue over the phone, but when I would go see her we would have a great time together and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. One of our fights was over me watching a females colleague/friend (she's 45 years old) dogs while she was away in alaska with her boyfriend, and she got jealous. She said that because we had an argument about me meeting this individual in the summer (I all of a sudden dropped her name that we hang out - even though I hang out with guys too) I should have known that my ex would have a problem with it, and should have taken her feelings into consideration and declined to help her with her pets. She says that this demonstrates that I don't have the capacity to take her feelings into consideration and make judgements that place her feelings as a priority.

 

She ended up breaking up with me on April 2nd over an email that I sent her that said "are you still coming to DC next weekend? I spent a lot of time planning events and my friends (which were mutual friends of hers) want to hang out." She emailed me back saying that she doesn't want to be "cornered in to coming or forced to behave a certain way around my friends". I wrote back and told her that "I'm not trying to force her to act a certain way, I only intend for her to come to DC and have a great time with the events I planned and hang out." I then added at the end that she's making things more difficult than they have to be, and if she would just see that things can be so much easier. She went absolutely nuts and said that's it - we are breaking up it's over. I need to get my stuff out of her place etc.

I literally played it cool and said ok, your reaction seems a bit excessive for what I wrote. She said that was the last straw - that we are not compatible, that I don't understand when to not push the issue and just let things happen and just relax.

She decides she's coming to DC but she said she does not want to see me or hangout because she has other plans and that I should just pick up my stuff at her hotel. She packs my things into a suitcase and brings it - at the airport it would have cost me $85 to check the suitcase, she ends up shuffling things around to bring it under weight so I would only have to pay $25 (i thought that was thoughtful). When she gets here, she takes a cab to the hotel and calls me the next day to meet for dinner. We go out and eat and drink and have a great time. I was attending a conference so I was wearing a suit and she was not dressed at all like how she usually dresses. Which surprised me, and I could tell that she was nervous but putting on a good facade to try and hide it. The waitress was absolutely gorgeous and she was flirting with me - which my ex ignored.

She asked me to take her to Ben's Chilli bowl for a hotdog to eat at her place later and she buys one for me and says we can eat it later at her hotel. I am of the full intention I was going to pick up my stuff and leave and I even said thats what I wanted to do, and she kept pushing the issue that she said it's fine to stay and chat a while.

Long story short, I end up sleeping there the night at the far side of the bed. In the morning I pack up my stuff, give her some things I had of hers and a card (which she didn't want to read because she would cry - I told her its not about our relationship but about supporting her and understanding her - which I failed to do at times - she ended up reading it later and said it was sweet), told her that I won't be contacting her. We talk a little more about her feelings, I acknowledge them - I'm pretty much saying all the right things and hitting all the main notes and being really relaxed. She bawling in front of me, and I'm supporting her feelings but restricting my emotions. Finally, I gather my things, hug her and leave. Little did I know but she was actually watching me from her room as i loaded my car and drove away Saturday morning.

At this point I think I am never going to see her again. So I was surprised to get a text that said if I wanted to meet for dinner. I of course said yes, and we go to our favorite spot - the manager there I got to know real well because I took a couple of friends there on several occasions. The manager basically comes over and start chatting it up with me (she's a female) and my ex is surprised that I know her and asks about how I know her - I explain the story and that was the end of that - but it was just random that this was the second time that a female host was chatting it up with me.

We end up having drinks and I get back to her hotel and she wants me to stay. I'm lying on her bed and she is literally right in front of me - she moves closer to me, I hold her face in my palm and we end up kissing. It got hot and steamy very fast and one thing led to another. We end up just laying there together afterwards and shes saying that should not have happened, that we aren't even together and I agreed. I forget what I actually said, but I was shocked it happened. We ended up falling asleep in each others arms, literally she would take my arms and wrap them around her real tight throughout the entire night. The next morning, it happened again, and she was like I can't believe I did it again. It's because I know how you feel when we are together and I miss it a lot. She said she really liked last night me holding her so close in the night. We end up talking in the morning and she tells me that when we are together than things are fine, and she didnt believe me when I said to her that long distance will be difficult but now she sees that it does make a difference.

We end up going around to various museums in the afternoon and I drop her off to meet up with her cousins. She says that she will take a cab to go back to the airport. I tell her I can take her, but she says it's ok, it will be too hard to say goodbye.

Anyway, she calls me an hour later and ask to pick her up. She bought me some peeps (the candy) while she with her cousins - again very thoughtful. We go to her hotel and check her out. We then go to the cherry blossom festival and walk around and take pictures together on her new camera, and then she asks me to take her to the airport.

I was actually pretty cool. I didn't cry and she was close to crying i could see it in her eyes and she ended up texting me about it. We end up kissing very passionately and I turn to walk away and she says give me another kiss, and we end up kissing some more.

She ends of sending me streams of text messages - "I just want to lay my head down on your chest and watch tv..."

"I am just ready for some smoothing sailing in my life and for things to be a bit easier. I'm sure you are ready for the same."

I say "@smooth sailing - that is what I want, no drama. Love, happiness, appreciation and affection" and she writes "Yep (love, happiness, appreciation, affection)(and respect, honesty, aware and taken care of one another)"

She then ends with "I will text you when I land. xoxoxoxox"

When she landed though tragedy struck - while she was here she told me all the things that she was dealing with but never actually told me about. Herpes, mother was not appreciative of her efforts, grandpa was sick, and she hates her job.

When she got back although I said no contact, she called me right away to let me know her grandfather had passed away. I have met the man several times, and had thanksgiving with him. At that time he believed we would be married someday.

Although i limited our communication I wanted to make sure she knew that I was there with her while she was going through the loss and grieving. I followed up with her once - gave her a couple days and followed up again to make sure she was coping well. I ordered a Lafco candle from NYC and a book "The Awakening". As we have talked about before, she says that no one looks out for her - and I told her that I would like to look out for her and be there for her. While I could not be there for her - these items would feed her soul and rejuvenate her spirits.

It has been 2 weeks since she was here - and this past Saturday I told her that I would like for her to get to know me better. She said that she feels that enough time has not passed by and she still has concerns over compatibility issues. She said she would get back to me. I did not pressure her over the next couple of days. Last night she called me, and basically said that she doest not want to be a situation where she feels obligated, or feel as though things are back to business as usual. I told her that I want her to get to know who I am today. She said she feels that cannot occur unless we talk, and she doesn't want to have regular conversation. She said that more time needs to be between us. Right now she needs to make decisions for her - while she's not going out there saying "Hey everyone, I'm single take me to dinner" - she does not want to feel like she needs to say that she is talking to someone on a regular basis. Basically to have time apart do our own thing and see what happens when we do talk. I am a straight shooter, so I said that I cannot say that I want to get to know each other again while going on dates with other people, so I have decided that I won't be doing that, but you are free to do what you wish to do. Looking back I don't think I should have said that because it may seem like I'm trying to force her in a corner. She's 30, she wants to be married and have kids, and she keeps saying she can't put her life on hold, it's not the same for men. She is getting older.

I ask her if she has any feelings for me - she said that she does but she doesn't want to talk about it right now, and she not sure if she answered the question correctly. I try to rephrase the question and she got upset because she feels that I'm not listening to her when she said "I don't want to talk about it" - and she basically said this is a prime example of why she thinks we are incompatible.

She ends the conversation, usually I am the one to end it. She then sends me a text after the convo, telling me "thanks for all my kindness and thoughtfulness regarding the passing of her grandpa, I really appreciate it". I tell her she is welcome, and I apologize for frustrating her on the phone when she called. I told her I understood when she said that she didn't want to talk about it, and that I recognize I was pushing my issue - like I said, I am a straight up guy, if I see a mistake that I made I apologize for it if i know what my true intentions were and after thinking about it I realize that was my true intention of pushing my issue of us reconciling. She wrote back "It's fine. Thanks for the apology. I'm sorry for showing my frustration."

 

And that's it. Just writing this was therapeutic, but I feel very sad. I feel that there is something I can tell her, something I can say to her to make her realize that hey, today is not yesterday. Today can be different if you will only allow that difference to occur. I even told her that she put herself out there for me multiple times, that she should allow me to do the same, and she says "maybe." I really can't get through to her.

 

I understand what NC will do, but I have serious fears about loosing her, and that's the truth. Yes there are other women out there, and I have no problem meeting them, I am just seriously not that interested at all. I am so focused on her that I have no interest elsewhere.

I jog on a regular basis, and try to keep busy and active. I have a lot on my plate that can keep me busy for the next couple of months, but I'm just not ok with the unknown right now.

 

I do understand that 3-4 months down the road our situations could be different, and I guess I have faith that we will find each other again. I'm not on facebook, and I don't use IM. I changed her contact info to "DO NOT CALL HER OR TEXT HER" as a reminder that everytime I am tempted to text or call, I will see it. I am pretty good about respecting her space and privacy.

 

For those who read through this novel, I appreciate it. If you have any thoughts and or opinions please do not hesitate to post. I have been very candid and non-biased in detailing my transgressions, and I welcome any feedback, advice, game plan etc.

Edited April 26, 2011 by iceweasel6

[1784]

No, Graceful, you're totally right and if I didn't give your post enough attention I'm sorry. In my big rant after your post, which was mostly directed at your points, I tried to address what I thought I needed to. Sometimes I forget that she's looking through things from her perspective and me from mine; and that they're two seemingly different points of view. You did present her side, perhaps not as forcefully as I typically receive Leda's replies for whatever reason.

 

She did show me who she was, for whatever reason(s) she had. That's all I really need to see. She always came first. Always.

[1784]

@iceweasel6 - you should probably post your story as a new post so that everyone sees it, not just people following this thread. Not to mention, it's not exactly nice to hijack someone else's thread ; )

[iceweasel6]

@iceweasel6 - you should probably post your story as a new post so that everyone sees it, not just people following this thread. Not to mention, it's not exactly nice to hijack someone else's thread ; )

 

1784 - Sorry about that, I will repost in a new thread. Hope I didn't step on too many toes.

 

If you don't mind me asking how have you been holding up? Do you have any advice to share to get through difficult times?

 

Thanks.

[1784]

Don't worry, iceweasel, I'll reply to your post in the new thread later on. I'll give you all the advice I can. You'll be alright. Stay strong.

[iceweasel6]

1784 - Thanks for your kind words. I read all 26 pages. The highs the lows, the excitement, disappointment and your resolve are admired. I am in awe of your strength and tenacity - you really approached everything with humility and sense of purpose. Thank you for sharing your story.

I look forward to your response.

[1784]

I'm feeling a little uneasy today with you guys and your taking her side (and/or playing devil's advocate), lol.

 

Like I said, I think any way you slice it, her selfishness (or whatever you'd like to call it) was what stood in our way. How I saw things was obviously not how she saw things. And if that's the case then there really wasn't much we could do. I'm always going to see her inability to compromise with regards to my mom's situation as selfish. I've tried and tried to understand the whys and the hows about it. But it doesn't change anything. I will always see it as selfish. It's too glaringly obvious a situation to try and rationalize her behavior as to WHY she needed this NOW. WHY she may have mistook my postponing the move as something ELSE. It WASN'T something else. I explained that a thousand times. Why am I feeling like I need to do it here and now on a forum? It's because I'm still questioning myself and I find that utterly absurd. A situation can't always be perfect for you. Sometimes you have to suck it up and deal. In our case I felt that she could have done that better, in a lot of ways along our journey together. But no matter. It really is like me trying to explain why the milk spilled when it doesn't really matter either way. It's spilled and can not be salvaged.

 

Support is hard. I've looked at all of you for positive reinforcement, truth, honesty, etc. I've gotten all that and I'm thankful for it. But I'm not beyond feeling frustrated and hurt. I appreciate the tough love. It helps. Sometimes it's a hard pill to swallow. I assure you that everything I've written here is the truth. Well, my truth anyway. If my ex were to write it I'm sure it would be written much differently. The facts, however, would not be in dispute. Please understand that. The times I needed her most she bailed (in one way or another, emotionally, physically, etc) on me.There are always reasons for doing something but I still believe that if you really love someone, and I mean REALLY love them, enough to marry them, enough to say you want to have a family, enough to trust them with your innermost secrets, then you stick with them when times are tough. You don't decide "that sucks for you and doesn't work for me". That's my perspective. I'm the one writing this. I hope you all get that.

[TaraMaiden]

I get it.

 

I must first of all say that I haven't had time to go through all 26 pages, but it sounds as if you've been through the mill.

I will merely put my point forward, and see what you make of it.

(remember that my perceptions stems from the first two pages and the last one or two.... And I don't mean that disrespectfully -but sometimes, these specific pages are enough to help fill in the blanks.....rather like reading the first 2 pages of a novel, and the last 2...)

 

Let me tell you a little story.

Four monks are travelling on foot to reach a specific beach - a holy place, a place of pilgrimage. They need to get there by sun-up to practice meditation at the appointed moment...

Finally, after a gruelling journey, tired and footsore, they arrive - only to find their way to the beach, impeded by a wide tract of stones - some big, some small, many jagged, sharp and of awkward shape. They look, in dismay.

This will tear our feet to shreds, before we reach the soft, white, fine sand! cries the first.

Quick! we must send back message to the monastery to send us as many rolls of cloth as possible - the monks don't need robes right now - but we can portion the cloths into small pieces to wrap the stones in, one by one, and then they won't hurt our feet!

The second exclaims - Are you mad?!?

No, we must send back message to the monastery to send us hammers and chisels - we are not carving any statues right now - and we will take the sharp stones, and knock off all the painful, sharp jagged edges, smooth them over, and make them more comfortable to walk on!

 

The third monk scoffs - Crazy idea, my brother! That will take for ever! No, we must send back message to the monastery to send us as many prayer mats as possible - perhaps the monks can spare them - and we can lay them over the stones, so that we do not see them, and we cannot therefore be hurt by them....!

The fourth monk is silent for a moment, and looks at the other three monks, then quietly asks - Why don't we just put our sandals back on?

 

The point is, we cannot prevent each and every negativity from existing.

People come in all types - some big, some small, many jagged, sharp and of awkward temperament.

We cannot change who they are, nor what they do. we cannot always influence them to be the way we want each individual to be; we cannot fashion them into something convenient to us, and we can't always pretend they're not there.

 

Our sole port of comfort is to change how we are, and what we do.

we can only tackle each and every experience from the point of our own perception.

We can judge, evaluate, criticise, condemn, discuss, debate, diagnose, hazard a guess, try to imagine or second-guess whatever is going on, "out there" - either circumstantially, or in somebody else's head. But we can never Know.

The bottom line is, that people do things because they want to protect themselves.

It's self-preservation, but many imagine that this means they must have the upper hand, be in control, and pull the strings.

They want to be in charge, and influence everything around them, according to what they want - otherwise, loss of control might mean having to face an unknown.

And people fear, or resist what they cannot see, or understand.

 

People are what or who they are, because they are who or what they are.

 

And we evaluate whether this sits well with us or not, through our own perception.

And our perception is naturally biased towards making sure that in all of this, we are ok.

But sometimes, we want to be more than just 'ok'. We want to be 'on top'

And this is where the struggle begins.

Because everybody simply wants to be understood, appreciated and loved. On their own terms.

 

If we could but release the desire to dictate to others, the conditions under which we are prepared to be understood, appreciated and loved by them, and do this for ourselves, it would be the most liberating thing in the world.

It would make our sentiments for them, unconditional.

We could accept them better, if we could accept the situation, better.

And sometimes, the situation, just 'is'.

 

We all deserve to be loved in the way we would most feel comfortable being loved. but we must also accept that there are some who cannot meet the criteria.

We can try to determine the whys, wherefores, how comes, WTFs and make the effort to understand and gain closure - but sometimes, it's wiser to consider how much effort that takes, and whether it wouldn't just be easier to 'let be', 'let go' and accept that some things, however right they might have looked, don't look - or feel - right any more.

 

And breathe, and relax, and release.

 

The epilogue is down to you.......

[silvermane187]

Tara dropping some zen buddhism on us. I love it. Great advice.

[TaraMaiden]

Thank you. You're too kind.

 

The thread was brought to my notice.

 

I just added what I hope may best fit.

[1784]

Well, TaraMadien, I really appreciate the input you lent to this thread as I value everyone's input. Being that the nature of it was non-specific I guess it says it all, in a blanket statement kind of a way. It sure was a show-stopper, though, I'll give you that

 

The story was great and any one of can surely learn a lot from it. I'm not denying that at all. I guess I was looking for some specifics that I had addressed during today's posts. I'm anxiously awaiting Leda's response, of course a she always plays the part of my ex gf. This thread is like a reality show.

 

I'm not gonna lie, it's been a tough week so far. In a way I think I'm getting too in depth with some of the issues that my ex and I had. I don't think that's really getting me anywhere. It's sort of dual-fold, though, as I am intrigued by a lot of these questions. Sometimes I think I'm having trouble accepting what my ex did yet other times i think I'm having trouble accepting my own decisions along the way. I suppose we all can do that and it really won't change anything at all. I've put a lot of the blame on her and while I still think a lot of it is warranted I don't want to paint myself as a saint, to any of you but most importantly to myself. I take responsibility for the fact that I had a part in the breakup. I'm sure there were things that I could have done better. What i don't have is any deal-breaker type stuff. I'm human. I didn't handle everything perfectly. But I did love her more than I've ever loved anyone and I think she really did know that as well as felt that. We all make mistakes and can easily look back on our relationships with a fine-toothed comb and think of things that we could have done differently. But when it comes to breakups, specifically breakups with someone we thought we were destined to be with, I would think that all of these things would be overshadowed by the love that was shared. But then again, I'm a romantic and maybe she was more of a practical realist who saw things that just didn't fit the bill. I have to accept that and know that if she wasn't happy then I'd never be happy either.

 

Anyway, I'm going to sit with some of these thoughts for a bit and take a short time to process everything. I need to take my brain out of overdrive and put it in neutral. Feel free to chime in as I'll be listening. I'm just a bit off kilter at the moment.

 

-1784

[hearttopieces]

Such a good thread. Just made me see my own relationship issues in a completely new perspective. 1784, you do seem like an amazing guy. Why can't all men be like you?

There are two things I would like to add.

Firstly, let me say that I couldn't make up my mind about your ex easily while reading the thread. It does seem she has you wrapped around her fingers, in a good way. It is also obvious you are aware of her flaws and accept them. Her selfishness has been discussed several times here, however, it was kind of shocking to read that she did not ask about your mom during the dinner. I think it is really really strange. Maybe it is just me, but I can't even express how weird that is. I don't know if you think this is something significant by the way. Anyway, I just think that such lack of interest indicates that she is very selfish. I would say I see her as a spoiled brat right now. Of course I am saying this based on what I have read in the past 2 hours, and this is just my current perception.

 

Secondly, I would not be so sure that she will contact you in the near furture, for the reason that she, as a self-centred and emotionally unstable woman (as a person who "can't" live alone) probably feels that she has already done way too much for reconciliation.

 

I am a very shy person myself and have always found it difficult to reach out. Of course, I don't know her, but if I remember correctly you said that she is a prideful person. And she texted you, called you, invited you for a dinner. Perhaps she was expecting that kiss after all and has just given up when she didn't get it. Is she generally a person who often initiates?

 

Anyway, add up all these characteristics, and you get a woman who needs some sort of reassurance at this particular point. Maybe she thinks you have accepted her dinner invitation out of politeness.

 

And also, I honestly don't see the branch talk as a big deal. She said herself before the date that she was nervous - maybe she was thinking too much as well, and just came up with this image of a floating branch in her head, and thought, she will share it with you, and wait for your response? And when you said you guys don't have to talk about this now, she took it as a rejection?

 

Also, people tend to mirror the attitude/words that are used by others in communication, especially if they care about that person. For example, when someone suddenly becomes irresponsive in a relationship for no particular reason, the other half, instead of reaching out, is likely to do the same. It's basically the "you get what you give" thing. So I am thinking, maybe you came across as too cool, too happy, maybe even indifferent? Could she have thought you are so over her?

 

Obviously I don't know her, so I just wanted to share my thoughts based on previous posts.

 

I bet she thinks you do not want to see her even again.

[1784]

@hearttopieces

 

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you took the time to read through the thread as I think there's just a ton of really great advice throughout, not just for me but for anyone willing to take the time to sit down and get through it. As for more men being like me, well, thank you for the compliment. I'm glad they aren't, this way I stand out a bit

 

Ya know, perspective is a very intriguing thing. It really is. I think the poster Graceful said it best in one of her more recent entries. We all have a unique camera lens that we look through. We all see the world through our own specific and unique eye. In literature they call this a "meaning creation device". How you see something is not how another sees it. The goal in literature is to see it how the author sees it but he/she also realizes that the reader will add their own perspective to it based on the reader's own life experiences. All very interesting things to think about especially on a forum like this. No matter what you think or how you see something, someone else is going to see something differently. It's always a good thing to remember especially when it comes to your significant other (or ex significant other as the case may be).

 

To address your points...

 

She definitely did have me wrapped around her finger. I hope it was in a good way. I would have done anything for her (anything within my power anyway). Me not being able to move in with her as scheduled was one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make in my life but I felt I had no choice. I felt I had to stay close to home for my mom's sake and as hard as that decision was I do not regret it. I knew the risk involved. Did I think it would end 'us'? To be honest, no. I knew it would not be easy but I thought we could get past it. I was wrong. I misjudged our strength as a couple, I suppose.

 

In regards to her not asking about my mom... I'm gonna giver her a pass on that. Sure, it seems like a no-brainer. She probably should have but I know she was nervous to see me. She even told me so. I think she was 'involved' in what was going on at the table. Plus, she had asked about her a week or so before when we spoke on the telephone. So I'll give her a pass. I mean, considering what a huge deal it is to me and my life you THINK she would have explored it a bit. I dunno. It's a pass with an asterisk, I suppose.

 

She is an initiator. She is prideful. She is confident. But she also loves me very much. I think it was more our compatibility that was in question when all was said and done. I approached that dinner with an open mind and heart. I mostly went with my instincts but made sure to remain calm. If I got the inkling that she was leaning towards reconciliation I think I wouldn't be posting this right now. If I felt that there was more 'hope' from the meeting then I think I would have felt it. It didn't feel it. I didn't feel like she wanted me to kiss her. She may have. I don't know. All I know is what I felt and what I felt was uncertainty.

 

One thing that was said at dinner in regards to her contacting me was basically "Life is too short". She wanted to know how I was. She wanted to see me. The reasons are her own. Only she knows what they were for sure. I think if she wanted to get into contact with me again that she would do so for that same reason. Life is too short not to. And she is someone who does not wait on what she wants. Part of my confusion was that she DID reach out. She texted, she called, she emailed. But I needed the reasons to be clearer as to why she did so. And I didn't want to give it meaning that wasn't there. I need her to show me why I was at dinner with her that night and she never really did. So, here I sit.

 

I did find the "branch talk" as a big deal. She invited me to dinner. It was her forum. I went along with it, we had a good time, we talked and laughed and everything in between. When she had her shot to tell me something significant about 'us' she blew it. She's not one to pull any punches. If she was thinking about trying to rekindle something I think she would have at least hinted at it. She would have made it known one way or another. She did not do this. This is all I have to go on so this is exactly what I am going on. It's too late in the game for guessing. We've been through too much. Me asking her what she was thinking was an open ended question that she could have done anything with. She chose to use it to tell me about her being a branch or a leaf or whatever the hell she said. Hey, that washer choice. That was what she decided to voice. That's what I have to accept out of respect for her and her decision. And I only told her "We don't have to talk about this now" out of sheer respect for the situation. We were at dinner, in a public place. This was not the setting for that particular conversation as I saw that she was beginning to get upset. I was even holding her hands at the dinner table. She knew I was there for her. She knows I love her. There's no question about that. If she felt the need to continue that conversation at another time, well, it either would have happened, will happen or won't happen. I can't wait for it. I think she knows it CAN happen, though.

 

I would agree with you that people sometimes mirror their company. It's a legitimate point. But when I said "So, what have you been thinking", I opened the door. The facade was removed. I rolled out the red carpet for her. I let down my guard for a second and so did she. What she said, though, was not inviting, as I've mentioned. So I don't think she felt intimidated or stunted because I was relaxed or aloof. I lowered my guard for her. For HER. She just didn't respond like I thought she might. Maybe she responded with exactly what she was feeling. That's fine. She's allowed. I wouldn't want her to say anything untrue anyway. I love her too much for her to lie to me and tell me something I want to hear.

 

As far as her thinking I do not ever want to see her again... I dunno. Our dinner went well as far as dinners go. There was a lot of affection, physically (hugging, holding hands, etc) and emotionally. There were no bad feelings there. I think she if she wanted to get into contact with me she would feel okay in doing so. After all, last time she contacted me look what happened - we ended up texting, talking and then having dinner together. If that's not positive reinforcement for her to contact me then I don't know what is. She may have mixed feelings about the way the night ended. Maybe she did want me to kiss her. But wanting a kiss isn't enough to rekindle something. She has to want a lot more than that. And honestly, i don't think she's there yet. She may never be there. I have no clue. I may never get there either. I know I love her but as far as us reconciling... well, it would take a lot of work.

 

So there you have it. Perspective. It means everything. I appreciate yours. You certainly gave me a lot to think about. In the end, though, I have to go with what I think since I'm closest to the situation. Not everything I said is easy for me to say, you do realize. I'm just trying to be as honest as possible. I don't wan to fool myself into thinking anything that's not there. I'd love your take on my perspective, though. If you disagree please share that with me. If I wasn't interested in everyone's opinions then I wouldn't be posting all of this. The things you said in your post actually helped a lot in that it gave me another way to look at things and weigh them against my own conclusions. Thank you very much. It may not have necessarily "changed" them but I'm positive that they did waver, move, etc. So thank you.

 

You're all really helping me in ways you don't even realize. I hope you know that.