Posting with Empathy

[BB07]

<<<I must confess I had to look up the definition of contravention and that isn't the only thing I've failed to understand in this thread. Does that make me an idiot?

[Silly_Girl]

I think the more interesting question is why those that start threads intended to provoke feel the need to keep doing so.

 

Not very empathetic, IMO.

 

Please substantiate your claim that threads are being posted to provoke.

 

Thanks.

[jthorne]

Please substantiate your claim that threads are being posted to provoke.

 

Thanks.

No need, it's obvious.

[jthorne]

My initial posts were lost during a server crash that took place not long after I signed up. I was initially frustrated at that and chose to address my issues elsewhere, coming to terms with it later as an exorcism as my ex-wife receded into my past. I am now happily remarried and feel renewed to have the history of my ex-wife purged from my posting profile.

 

I am not sure that I should be entertaining this attempt to steer this thread even further from its intended course. Several posters have already tried to shift the focus from the opening post to the individual who posted it, which I believe to be a contravention of the community guidelines.

 

Original poster, please accept my apologies for participating in the disruption of what might otherwise have been a thought-provoking discussion.

It's awfully nice of you to take up for the Other Women on this forum. Welcome back.

[Silly_Girl]

No need, it's obvious.

 

I do believe... that I once posted something like that, and was accused of something akin to gaslighting. I was severely rebuked by other members, so please, in the interests of reducing MY ignorance, why not stand by your claims? I really would appreciate it.

[greengoddess]

<<<I must confess I had to look up the definition of contravention and that isn't the only thing I've failed to understand in this thread. Does that make me an idiot?

 

 

No it makes you totally normal and not out to "impress" anyone with your superior mind.

[GorillaTheater]

No it makes you totally normal and not out to "impress" anyone with your superior mind.

 

I decline to entertain the notion that Msr. Hun was attempting to do anything other than remind certain miscreants and malefactors of proper internet decorum pursuant to the relevant guidelines which govern this site.

[BB07]

No it makes you totally normal and not out to "impress" anyone with your superior mind.

 

LOL............thanks for the "validation" that I'm not an idiot.

[BB07]

I decline to entertain the notion that Msr. Hun was attempting to do anything other than remind certain miscreants and malefactors of proper internet decorum pursuant to the relevant guidelines which govern this site.

 

 

DAMN! That's just too many words to look up in my online dictionary.

[GorillaTheater]

I thought that the discussion of empathy was kind of interesting ( not sure about all the "back and forth" comments between people though)

 

I don't feel a bit sorry for you.

[jthorne]

I do believe... that I once posted something like that, and was accused of something akin to gaslighting. I was severely rebuked by other members, so please, in the interests of reducing MY ignorance, why not stand by your claims? I really would appreciate it.

But I've already addressed this. I'm sorry it's not to your satisfaction. I'm not the only one to have made these claims, so I'm unsure why you are harassing me specifically. And jacking OWoman's thread in the process.

[Silly_Girl]

But I've already addressed this. I'm sorry it's not to your satisfaction. I'm not the only one to have made these claims, so I'm unsure why you are harassing me specifically. And jacking OWoman's thread in the process.

 

I take your point you don't wish to expand on it...

Apologies for the perceived harassment.

[desertIslandCactus]

I take your point you don't wish to expand on it...

.

 

With all due respect SG - and I don't mean this toward you at all:

 

But just to say, that - if some weren't so report-happy on here, others might feel more free to expand on and explain their comments.

[Silly_Girl]

With all due respect SG - and I don't mean this toward you at all:

 

But just to say, that - if some weren't so report-happy on here, others might feel more free to expand on and explain their comments.

 

I'm pleased you don't mean it towards me because I've reported as many posts as I can count on one hand. And that includes spam (I don't NEED to increase the size of my penis )

 

Being serious though, I don't get the connection. If someone responds but stays within T&Cs, all should be well?

 

I sometimes think there's a lot I don't know about this board.... and it's possibly for the best!!

[Mei Mei]

This is funny.

This conversation has happaned before. Look at the bottom of the page. Empathy for the BS. It's really funny. The boards were mean then.

 

Anyway, I thought this post was really funny considering this is the person who started this thread.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1859773&postcount=121

 

 

Really sarcastic! LOL

[GorillaTheater]

you don't? but where is your sense of empathy?

 

<whew> Glad you took it in exactly the spirit it was intended.

[White Flower]

This is funny.

This conversation has happaned before. Look at the bottom of the page. Empathy for the BS. It's really funny. The boards were mean then.

 

Anyway, I thought this post was really funny considering this is the person who started this thread.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1859773&postcount=121

Explain why you find this funny. She delivers the definitions, then offers a real life example. There is nothing funny whatsoever in that.

[mizliz]

Explain why you find this funny. She delivers the definitions, then offers a real life example. There is nothing funny whatsoever in that.

 

Except that OWoman has not been back to qualify her definition of empathy. As far as I know, the concept of empathy is the same across cultures. As for context? That is what seems to be in question.

[White Flower]

"Demonstrating the skill of empathy" doesn't mean someone HAS empathy. IMO, someone who doesn't care who gets hurt as long as they get what THEY want is NOT a person who possesses empathy.

With all due respect donnamaybe the OP didn't bring up the difference between the skill versus capacity. I wonder why you felt you needed to try to make a point of it?

 

TBH I would rather someone in an A had no empathy for the BS, to say that they are emapthetic toward the BS and then still have an A is, IMO, patronising and selfish. If you are going to stab me (general) in the back, do it in cold blood with no feeling, don't do it all apologetic and trying to understand it, just do it. It is far more honest, lacks empathy of course, but I don't get half assed empathy toward A's at least.

 

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a good yardstick and suggests empathy as its underlying value.

I find it very interesting seren that you would prefer your H's OW to act in cold blood. I am not taking issue with it, but find it very interesting. I'm going to dwell on this for a while...

 

Yes, that's right.

 

See, here is the thing. It is impossible for me to have empathy for an OW. Why? Because I really don't understand what it is like to be an OW or why anyone would knowingly become an OW.

 

To be able to empathize, one has to be able to (as the definition says) live somewhat vicariously through another person. I can't do that with an OW, therefor, I can't empathize with her.

 

However I can be sympathetic and/or compassionate without the need to understand an OW's actions. I would imagine there are OW's who feel the same way towards BW's.

I did for a long time and it was much easier when I refused to ask questions about her or listen to stories about her. But when she was no longer a non-entity many emotions including compassion set it.

 

This was a great post. I cut some, but only for brevity. Go back and learn.

 

I read something very interesting the other day. A person's account of having perfect empathy. There is a physiological (?) disorder which mean you feel perfectly what others around you are feeling. It's called mirror touch sydrome. So this woman can see someone getting hit, and she actually blacks out as if she were hit herself. She walks into a room and feels what everyone is feeling. I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be her.

 

There is a way of feeling the pain of others which halts your own ability to thrive. And there are also people who never know what this feels like.

 

All things under the sun.

I think you just described MM and me. I'll bet you can't guess which is which. I think I've just had an epiphany.

 

Just from my completely honest POV, it's very difficult to picture myself in a situation that I feel can cause pain to me or others. I don't want to ever walk in those shoes and I don't understand why other women choose to do so.

 

However, I respect others to make the choice that best suits them.

 

Again, empathy isn't the same as sympathy or compassion. I can have sympathy for an OW who is hurt by an affair. I can have compassion for a woman who is lied to by a MM. Can't do the empathy thing because I don't have that king of understanding.

I see a possible contradiction here, but I am not calling you out on it. I think it is what happens to most OP. The subject of empathy and compassion as an OW has weighed heavily on me lately so I honestly appreciate your words, in fact, most everyone's words on this thread.

 

BBM, the contradiction, is probably the inner contradiction most OP feel. I distinctly remember after being pursued for a year and a half telling myself to throw my cares into the wind and enjoy whatever this is. What I was feeling without putting into words at the moment was, 'I'm going to step into some shoes that might hurt some people including myself', and then, 'I'm going to do what I find suitable for me at this time.' I did the contradiction, and while you say you don't empathize I do believe you understand it. Thank you for helping me to understand this. I scored high on the test and most of my closest friends can't understand why me of all people got involved in an A. It just didn't make sense. I think I struggled with what Silly Girl brought up which is empathizing so much so that I halted my ability to thrive. I had to do something for myself for a change. Funnily enough, I'm finding I have to do the same thing to put this whole thing to rest for myself, but that is another story for another thread.

 

 

Yes - I agree with your points. I'm not sure of the status of the test - it was published in the magazine section of the paper, which ordinarily would undermine any faith I'd have in such a thing, but Simon Baron-Cohen is a very reputable scholar and if he'd had any editorial input in the article (or choice of accompanying matter) then it may have some validity. IDK. While I scored very highly on it, I don't think that that is necessarily a good thing. I think a very high score could also indicate weak boundaries - for example, questions which ask whether one could make decisions without being influenced by other people's feelings. If you answer "strongly disagree" then you should not seek a career as a judge, or even accept jury duty, or even a management position; OTOH, if you answer "strongly agree", should you be in management, or politics, or any kind of service profession?

BBM is exactly my problem. I make a very good manager at work, but in my Rs I have weak boundaries. Men can take advantage of my heart...until I finally get fed up and D them...or give them the boot.

 

For others, the importance of getting what they want is greater than their sense of empathy for those that might be hurt by that pursuit of what they want.

 

All of us find that 'balance' somewhere inside of us between these two opposite motivations.

Owl, I love the fact that you can describe this even if you haven't lived it. You empathize on some level! And even though this thread is about posting with empathy, I would like to offer answers (at least my own) as to why OPs get involved when they are otherwise empathetic or compassionate people.

 

Perhaps some "other men/women" are able to "quash" their sense of empathy for their partner's "betrayed spouse" ( I hate these terms!) and this may be part of what makes them able to be happy in their relationship. Maybe some other "affair partners" ( again, a term I hate) are not able to do this, and they become less and less able to be happy in their relationship- they empathize with the "betrayed spouse" and guilt creeps in.

 

Just speaking for myself, I don't think I could be happy if I felt guilty like that.

 

( I may be totally wrong in my assumptions)

frozensprouts I appreciate your 'assumptions', and I would like to take it a step further. None of this would have made sense to me years ago, but now I see it for what it is. Throw love into the mix and you think you can conquer the world, and overcome the empathy that tries to display itself, at least for some time.

 

I don't consider Japanese to be lesser because earthquakes, tsunamis and nuclear disasters have troubled them. I don't consider Haitians to be lesser because they were devastated by an earthquake; nor Libyans by a war; nor Zimbabweans by a famine. That was my point.

Very good point Owoman.

I also think that during an A, the minimising of the marriage enables the WS to not show empathy toward their spouse, otherwise they would have to ask themselves what their character was lacking that would allow them to hurt and lie to someone they share a life with.

Add to that the 'fact' that he doesn't love his W, loves you, and that love feels so powerful, love rules, and well, you get the picture.

 

 

Except that OWoman has not been back to qualify her definition of empathy. As far as I know, the concept of empathy is the same across cultures. As for context? That is what seems to be in question.

I think she explained herself pretty well both in the OP as well as later.

 

Thank you for a very thought-provoking thread Owoman. Even with a little bickering it was very informative and otherwise pleasant.

Edited April 1, 2011 by White Flower

[mizliz]

With all due respect donnamaybe the OP didn't bring up the difference between the skill versus capacity. I wonder why you felt you needed to try to make a point of it?

 

Maybe because it is a sound point? If you have the capacity for something and lack the skill, it's because you (general) are acting in a self-serving manner. That's human nature.

 

 

I find it very interesting seren that you would prefer your H's OW to act in cold blood. I am not taking issue with it, but find it very interesting. I'm going to dwell on this for a while...

 

Think about it. Wouldn't you rather someone be honest with you?

 

Owl, I love the fact that you can describe this even if you haven't lived it. You empathize on some level! And even though this thread is about posting with empathy, I would like to offer answers (at least my own) as to why OPs get involved when they are otherwise empathetic or compassionate people.

 

I don't think that the issue revolves around whether or not an AP is an "otherwise" empathetic person. It's very simple really - empathy goes out the window in an affair. We can rationalize it all we want, but the truth is there.

 

frozensprouts I appreciate your 'assumptions', and I would like to take it a step further. None of this would have made sense to me years ago, but now I see it for what it is. Throw love into the mix and you think you can conquer the world, and overcome the empathy that tries to display itself, at least for some time.

 

Case in point. "Overcoming" empathy.

 

 

I think she explained herself pretty well both in the OP as well as later.

 

 

Well, I don't. So...?

 

Thank you for a very thought-provoking thread Owoman. Even with a little bickering it was very informative and otherwise pleasant.

 

Agreed.

 

My posts in bolded. For clarification.

[donnamaybe]

With all due respect donnamaybe the OP didn't bring up the difference between the skill versus capacity. I wonder why you felt you needed to try to make a point of it?

Because merely DEMONSTRATING a "pro-social" quality is something that sociopaths do to trick people whereas actually POSSESSING the quality is the real person. And there's a BIG difference. The person who actually cares about others and isn't just pretending to look good will act with empathy even when no one is looking.

[donnamaybe]

I don't think that the issue revolves around whether or not an AP is an "otherwise" empathetic person. It's very simple really - empathy goes out the window in an affair. We can rationalize it all we want, but the truth is there.

Nailed it.

[Silly_Girl]

Because merely DEMONSTRATING a "pro-social" quality is something that sociopaths do to trick people whereas actually POSSESSING the quality is the real person. And there's a BIG difference. The person who actually cares about others and isn't just pretending to look good will act with empathy even when no one is looking.

 

The OP didn't use that phrase... I did.

 

And you've taken it to a strange place!! I used the phrase the same as 'she demonstrated her dancing skills' i.e. She danced. Turn of phrase. Nothing to do with sociopaths

 

I think sociopathics AREN'T empathetic. That's the point! What they do is something altogether different.

 

You're a cheeky minx when it comes to 'interpreting' posts!!

[donnamaybe]

The OP didn't use that phrase... I did.

I know.

 

It is merely my opinion that if someone can state that they don't care who they hurt as long as they are happy, they ARE only "demonstrating empathy" and not really possessing it. Thus, when we read the resulting posts, should we be taking them with a grain of salt?

 

Please note I am focusing on the resulting POSTS which IS the topic of this thread.

 

BTW, I like the "cheeky minx" comment. That was a cute choice of verbage.

[Silly_Girl]

I know.

 

It is merely my opinion that if someone can state that they don't care who they hurt as long as they are happy, they ARE only "demonstrating empathy" and not really possessing it. Thus, when we read the resulting posts, should we be taking them with a grain of salt?

 

Please note I am focusing on the resulting POSTS which IS the topic of this thread.

 

BTW, I like the "cheeky minx" comment. That was a cute choice of verbage.

 

 

 

If one changes their actions due to their empathy and understanding, surely they're then showing compassion? What's compassion in your book?

 

Enjoying this thread.